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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Help with EPDs   Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:59 pm

PatB wrote:
I watched McCumber sale for a bit on RFDtv yesterday and they had some nice looking animals with acceptable EPD's. Their bulls epd's were 1/2 to 2/3's of main stream AI bulls.

Pat,
you want to raise cattle in Thoreau`s Maine woods and you are impressed with cattle that look as if they spent their life in a corn crib when they weren`t in a grooming chute?
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PatB



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Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Help with EPDs   Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:44 am

I am hundred miles south of Thoreau's Maine woods area and 20 plus growing days longer. I will agree the cattle are well fed and taken care of. The bulls were the most uniformed and consistent quality I have seen on a video sale in a while.
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MVCatt



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Age : 42
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PostSubject: Re: Help with EPDs   Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:56 am

PatB wrote:
The bulls were the most uniformed and consistent quality I have seen on a video sale in a while.

Yes...Fatness has a pattern...but it could just be that the camera makes them look fat...some dresses do that as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Help with EPDs   Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:09 am

MVCatt wrote:
PatB wrote:
The bulls were the most uniformed and consistent quality I have seen on a video sale in a while.

Yes...Fatness has a pattern...but it could just be that the camera makes them look fat...some dresses do that as well.


Yes Chris fatness does have a pattern.
I see these cows as the ever popular Oprah Winfrey Type POWER COWS. Me i kinda like the more eye appealing Halle Barry type with a bit of athleticism.
Yes Chris there are BIG FAT BLACK COWS. And on the serious side how well fed do they need to be? I think a over fat cow may be the worst thing of all, they dont breed as quick, they have more problems calving, They have more feet problems. I guess it is with all mammals too much of anything is not good.
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OAK LANE FARM



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PostSubject: Re: Help with EPDs   Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:04 am

It is the sale season and people can claim anything they want and they all do claim efficiency and maternal. The problem is that when the cattle are fed and managed the way they are there is no efficiency sort that would be of any value to commercial producers. As for maternal , the pedigrees tell the truth so when bull like VRD, Equator and 004 replace bulls that were maternal the cattle are simply something else. We probably have another 10 years of growth/carcass extremes until we create even more problems. I attribute the changes in many of these herds as a shift from trying to emulate someone (breeders) to trying to compete with someone ( marketers). What's it going to be boy? Larry Leonhardt and Russ Denowh or Kelly Schaff.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Help with EPDs   Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:37 am

Quote :
What's it going to be boy? Larry Leonhardt and Russ Denowh or Kelly Schaff.

What office are they running for? Can we get kickbacks?


AND FOR W. T as a lead in for April Fools that is celebrated each and every day in other locations:

Music, please, ...

I told Bossie about her, I told her about her fine kin
Bossie mooed and forgave and Bossie began to graze again
I guess if I want pretty cattle, Bossie's not worried about it now
Oh I don't know to choose, what have I to lose
Do EPDs or pretty pictures really make the best cow

Oh-h-h Pretty Bovine-e-e-e-e, Devil Bovine let go of me
I don't want to just see pretty cows
I just want to praise them maternally.


Eddie from somewhere knowing that "obesity sells".
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Help with EPDs   Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:06 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
I'm wondering if I could get some help figuring out EPDs? Specifically I would like suggestions as to what should be included in a maternal EPD set that when used sensibly and simply would move the focus in a cattle population from growth and terminal characteristics towards longevity, reduced maintenance and hence more efficient beef production. I like what I understand about the $EN EPD but what others are worthwhile and to establish things like the $EN do you need to have WW and YW and various other related EPDs? Are there any good documents you'd recommend reading on this subject? - places that could develop the calculations to fit such an EPD set?
Another question I have is how large a cattle population it takes to generate EPDs with worthwhile accuracy. Is collecting the data and producing EPDs more difficult in a population where bulls are used almost exclusively rather than AI?

TIA

Grassfarmer,
Back to the beginning of a worthy question in my thoughts the last few days as I worked on Larry`s latest tru-line post...the no epd, no measurement is fine if you are not going to sell maternal breeding stock...if you wish to, as I still do, how will you compete saying" small cow in, with impeccable feet, beautiful leg set, nothing creaky about her, excellent attitude, bright in the eye.... neatest, nicest looking little cow "

Bonsma said man must measure, but he seemed to conclude his work like DV by drawing pictures...type {picture} selection still maybe not a problem for a commercial cattleman`s own use due to his experience, but then when I ask "where`s the beef"; beef meaning commercial dollars, not type...
how many calves at what level of production in 18 years? do her daughters repeat the old cow type ? do her sons repeat the old cow type? and then when I say prove it, what`s your "competitive" proof?
I`m not sure there is any; but until there is...you`re just competing in a "who can tell the biggest story" con game...
something must be quantified to sell...

I`m not sure I see any tru-line involved in the old cow story/plans...I just see a circle; granted a smaller circle than the first big circle....
longhorns improved by herefords; improved by angus;angus over-improved by promotion; challenged/improved/destroyed by exotics; then improved by mainstream performance testing; then Bonsma/maternal recognized by Shoshone;then calving improved by longhorns...

smaller circle...good uddered shoshone cows; improve feet with Pinebank; improve resulting crappy udders with Shoshone...
moral to story...obviously, improvement is always on-going...but where does it best come from? I believe from selection within the known gene pool instead of outside the gene pool...the smallest circle; or sphere in reality...outside appears the quickest cure for a poor characteristic; it rarely ever is..

and maybe my Tru-line measurement for your critique at least would be...
tell me the number of animals in your beginning genepool and the numbers of years the gene pool has been closed...

100 beginning divided by 20 years= score 5
733 and squid...2 divided by 20 years= score .1...lower the better...

but that still doesn`t enumerate if what you close bred is any good...????

hopeless since we don`t measure intake? are can`t we assume it from cow weight and milk level?

I feel your pain Iain...and that is about all I can offer... Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Help with EPDs   Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:31 pm

EddieM wrote:
Quote :
What's it going to be boy? Larry Leonhardt and Russ Denowh or Kelly Schaff.

What office are they running for? Can we get kickbacks?


AND FOR W. T as a lead in for April Fools that is celebrated each and every day in other locations:

Music, please, ...

I told Bossie about her, I told her about her fine kin
Bossie mooed and forgave and Bossie began to graze again
I guess if I want pretty cattle, Bossie's not worried about it now
Oh I don't know to choose, what have I to lose
Do EPDs or pretty pictures really make the best cow

Oh-h-h Pretty Bovine-e-e-e-e, Devil Bovine let go of me
I don't want to just see pretty cows
I just want to praise them maternally.


Eddie from somewhere knowing that "obesity sells".

cheers cheers cheers Yes EDDIE they just need to figure that the joke is on them! But some how i doubt they will ever get IT As Larkota would say. scratch scratch
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Grassfarmer



Posts : 850
Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Help with EPDs   Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:06 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
I'm wondering if I could get some help figuring out EPDs? Specifically I would like suggestions as to what should be included in a maternal EPD set that when used sensibly and simply would move the focus in a cattle population from growth and terminal characteristics towards longevity, reduced maintenance and hence more efficient beef production. I like what I understand about the $EN EPD but what others are worthwhile and to establish things like the $EN do you need to have WW and YW and various other related EPDs? Are there any good documents you'd recommend reading on this subject? - places that could develop the calculations to fit such an EPD set?
Another question I have is how large a cattle population it takes to generate EPDs with worthwhile accuracy. Is collecting the data and producing EPDs more difficult in a population where bulls are used almost exclusively rather than AI?

TIA

Grassfarmer,
Back to the beginning of a worthy question in my thoughts the last few days as I worked on Larry`s latest tru-line post...the no epd, no measurement is fine if you are not going to sell maternal breeding stock...if you wish to, as I still do, how will you compete saying" small cow in, with impeccable feet, beautiful leg set, nothing creaky about her, excellent attitude, bright in the eye.... neatest, nicest looking little cow "

Bonsma said man must measure, but he seemed to conclude his work like DV by drawing pictures...type {picture} selection still maybe not a problem for a commercial cattleman`s own use due to his experience, but then when I ask "where`s the beef"; beef meaning commercial dollars, not type...
how many calves at what level of production in 18 years? do her daughters repeat the old cow type ? do her sons repeat the old cow type? and then when I say prove it, what`s your "competitive" proof?
I`m not sure there is any; but until there is...you`re just competing in a "who can tell the biggest story" con game...
something must be quantified to sell...

I`m not sure I see any tru-line involved in the old cow story/plans...I just see a circle; granted a smaller circle than the first big circle....
longhorns improved by herefords; improved by angus;angus over-improved by promotion; challenged/improved/destroyed by exotics; then improved by mainstream performance testing; then Bonsma/maternal recognized by Shoshone;then calving improved by longhorns...

smaller circle...good uddered shoshone cows; improve feet with Pinebank; improve resulting crappy udders with Shoshone...
moral to story...obviously, improvement is always on-going...but where does it best come from? I believe from selection within the known gene pool instead of outside the gene pool...the smallest circle; or sphere in reality...outside appears the quickest cure for a poor characteristic; it rarely ever is..

and maybe my Tru-line measurement for your critique at least would be...
tell me the number of animals in your beginning genepool and the numbers of years the gene pool has been closed...

100 beginning divided by 20 years= score 5
733 and squid...2 divided by 20 years= score .1...lower the better...

but that still doesn`t enumerate if what you close bred is any good...????

hopeless since we don`t measure intake? are can`t we assume it from cow weight and milk level?

I feel your pain Iain...and that is about all I can offer... Rolling Eyes


I'm not feeling any pain Mike, I'm full of optimism and looking forward to supplying commercial customers with maternal Luing breeding stock as my gene pool grows. As of now the concepts we discuss here have been getting a welcome ear from my commercial bull customers, to have them walk among cows and see the likeness of tighter bred cattle, and see body types they are looking for, management close to their own in terms of how we run cows and most of all that we can sell them bulls cheaper than they can get them from the mainstream are all conducive to being able to sell maternal breeding stock on the limited scale I'm on. I don't have any quantitive way to describe our cattle in figures but I don't think that's a hindrance with the guys I'm dealing with. Because I can't quantify doesn't mean its a con - if I share what I know of their backgrounds (full disclosure) and the buyer can select themselves from naturally raised cattle I think that's about as "con-free" as it can get. Perhaps the number that will do me most good is the longevity number on the cows because I think that is so important as Larry was describing in his post. My "young" yellow cow, my oldest daughter of my granny cow who reared her last calf at 23 turns 11 next month and is coming with her 10th calf. A calf a year, never assisted for anything - that gives me encouragement that we have longevity and functional efficiency built into our linebred core. Give me another decade and I'll have better longevity accuracy for our gene pool.

As for developing Maternal EPDs, I was kidding myself - why would people who regularly sell bulls for $10,000 to $30,000 take advice on how to improve their cattle from a guy who sells bulls for under $2500? They have entered the registered mainstream and I'm happily on the outside of that. My interest is in breeding more consistent maternal cattle that will improve beef production efficiency and these registered mainstream guys are so far from that objective they may as well inhabit another planet.

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Help with EPDs   Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:21 pm

oh, perhaps just my over-reaction to a new caller tonight...
first question...

Are your bulls AI sired? ...top of the mind awareness...where would "breeding program" rank in awareness ? maybe different in KY...but I doubt it...



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Kent Powell



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Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Help with EPDs   Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:14 am

Simple solution there. Two options, #1 collect your bulls- they are AI sires. Their calves are sired by AI sires. #2 Name the sire line AI. This one is- AI 1202, his full brother is- AI 2243...

I used to desire purity. Purity of cause, intention, and purpose. Purity of cattle, purity of language, ... The missing link is the desire for purity from customers. People are the problem again. If the language is going to be shaped and formed to fit perceptions, desires, and societal whims- let em have it. I am thinking about naming some bulls Simi, Char, or even Grazing Devon, so I can fill the demand for those cattle. In a composite world, they are whatever you want them to be.

Purity of purpose or in product cannot withstand popularity, the majority won't allow it.


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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Help with EPDs   Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:09 pm

so well said Kent...
In hindsight, I did think I should have said, yes, I use AI bulls...instead I opted for saying I would not use AI stud bulls if they offered to me naturally; let alone AI breeding cows etc...and I think I gave a half decent quick explanation why...I`m just past too much effort selling bulls; selling the concept is the priority...and the more often I hear I`m doing it wrong, or the wrong person, the more it motivates me...
nice chat today with a fellow that been down a lot of the same roads I have; except he has been in a faster lane...how refreshing to hear he doesn`t want his sons to follow the registered path; but instead breed and raise cattle for the commercial industry...
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PostSubject: Re: Help with EPDs   Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:33 am

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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Help with EPDs   Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:10 am

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