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 Building a cowherd by culling

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Building a cowherd by culling   Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:00 pm

Hilly wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
I am very interested in this concept and hope to pursue it with my own breed. I'm in an almost unique position in that I have the opportunity to steer our entire breed in North America down this path. Not that i'm that powerful or influential Rolling Eyes - just that our gene pool and number of breeders is so small Very Happy
I have a dream of the possibility - now I have to produce the reality - with my limited tools and knowledge maybe an impossibility? But I'd rather fail trying than fail to try Smile


And your right next door Smile I look forward to the option of utilizing your strain in future beef production...

I like to think everyone is in the same unique position.... that is why I think the concept of Tue-Line works so well as we can all be our own independent breed/strain and fix the type of cattle we choose or prefer...

I don’t mean to make it sound like an easy task and most of this tread is experienced based lessons of one independent individual’s journey toward such a goal.

Which I see as help and encouragement to others to become independent, so that than, together we can move on to things greater then ourselves.
I think the "fixing" of a type may be easier than the "selection" of a type...we want too much; often because we have been told we can have more...the biggest challenge comes from after the "fixing", with the "selling" of the fixed type parent stock to the commercial industry...there is no WOW!!!! effect in parent stock...
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Building a cowherd by culling   Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:23 pm

MKeeney wrote:

I think the "fixing" of a type may be easier than the "selection" of a type...we want too much; often because we have been told we can have more...the biggest challenge comes from after the "fixing", with the "selling" of the fixed type parent stock to the commercial industry...there is no WOW!!!! effect in parent stock...

Not sure I follow you Mike - do you mean that selecting the replacements from within our stabilised type is difficult because we will tend to select the wrong ones for ourselves or because we might be tempted to select the wrong ones due to commercial pressures from bull buyers?
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PostSubject: Re: Building a cowherd by culling   Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:14 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
MKeeney wrote:

I think the "fixing" of a type may be easier than the "selection" of a type...we want too much; often because we have been told we can have more...the biggest challenge comes from after the "fixing", with the "selling" of the fixed type parent stock to the commercial industry...there is no WOW!!!! effect in parent stock...

Not sure I follow you Mike - do you mean that selecting the replacements from within our stabilised type is difficult because we will tend to select the wrong ones for ourselves or because we might be tempted to select the wrong ones due to commercial pressures from bull buyers?
Iain, you may be farther along in committment to a type than I; already knowing the cow type you prefer; a smaller gene pool in your breed may leave you less choice to cow type...while I still scramble around ...
I feel no pressure from bull buyers; I can satisfy feeder calf producers who are the largest demand group here easily with more terminally inclined crosses...most producers here accept that the female is a by-product of market animal selection...
Dwight, when inbred parent stock is outcrossed, what would be the "wow" effect you allude to?
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Building a cowherd by culling   Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:50 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
MKeeney wrote:

I think the "fixing" of a type may be easier than the "selection" of a type...we want too much; often because we have been told we can have more...the biggest challenge comes from after the "fixing", with the "selling" of the fixed type parent stock to the commercial industry...there is no WOW!!!! effect in parent stock...

Not sure I follow you Mike - do you mean that selecting the replacements from within our stabilised type is difficult because we will tend to select the wrong ones for ourselves or because we might be tempted to select the wrong ones due to commercial pressures from bull buyers?
Iain, you may be farther along in committment to a type than I; already knowing the cow type you prefer; a smaller gene pool in your breed may leave you less choice to cow type...while I still scramble around ...
I feel no pressure from bull buyers; I can satisfy feeder calf producers who are the largest demand group here easily with more terminally inclined crosses...most producers here accept that the female is a by-product of market animal selection...
Dwight, when inbred parent stock is outcrossed, what would be the "wow" effect you allude to?

Mike, I may indeed be further along in my commitment to a type - unfortunately I don't know if it is the correct type and the tiny gene pool doesn't leave me with any alternative types. Not good prospects but we'll try to do something with what we have. Smile Ironically I first got interested in "line-breeding" because I didn't feel there was any exterior source of the type of Luing genetics I thought I needed so breeding my own was always the way I was headed anyway.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Building a cowherd by culling   Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:23 am

Quote :
unfortunately I don't know if it is the correct type

Can we learn anything about correct maternal type from the cows in local, longterm commercial operations that have functioned well and been fertile and profitable? Would the parent line not reflect some of the traits, shapes, be a bit smaller, have typical hair coat, etc?
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PostSubject: Re: Building a cowherd by culling   Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:48 am

EddieM wrote:
Quote :
unfortunately I don't know if it is the correct type

Can we learn anything about correct maternal type from the cows in local, longterm commercial operations that have functioned well and been fertile and profitable? Would the parent line not reflect some of the traits, shapes, be a bit smaller, have typical hair coat, etc?
i`m the best commercial operation in the area Smile what size cow do we want;and how much production can we afford to feed; the fat, milk, fertility relationships...average still works for me; though the tweaking is now moving away a bit from the "stout" cow...
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Building a cowherd by culling   Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:49 pm

Quote :
i`m the best commercial operation in the area what size cow do we want;and how much production can we afford to feed; the fat, milk, fertility relationships...average still works for me; though the tweaking is now moving away a bit from the "stout" cow...

I know what you mean: I've got the best commercial herd on OUR FARM! There's something to brag about. clown So could Grassfarmer take his long term breeders, select the average of them minus some flesh and have his type?
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Building a cowherd by culling   Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:42 am

I may be showing my ignorance, but I think finding the 'female type' is the easy part...keep almost all heifers and select based on functional efficiency within your given environment (little to no environmental adjusters).

I find it more unsettling determining which bull to use...it has been scrotal structure(not size), genetics, and the ability to maintain condition.

The one criteria that gets any animal culled is bad disposition!
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PostSubject: Re: Building a cowherd by culling   Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:51 pm

RobertMac wrote:
I may be showing my ignorance, but I think finding the 'female type' is the easy part...keep almost all heifers and select based on functional efficiency within your given environment (little to no environmental adjusters).

I find it more unsettling determining which bull to use...it has been scrotal structure(not size), genetics, and the ability to maintain condition.

The one criteria that gets any animal culled is bad disposition!

I thought it was concluded the problem with that type of female selection was the ongoing cost of the sort? Isn't that why we are after breeding cows with more predictably?
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Angus 62



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PostSubject: Re: Building a cowherd by culling   Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:06 pm

Have listened to several managers of large operations speak of raising heifers the way Robert describes. Turn in bulls with large group of heifers for 45 days and sell the opens just like if you were running yearlings. Any excess breds get marketed as such.
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PostSubject: Re: Building a cowherd by culling   Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:07 pm

That works for the first year sort - no cheap way to sort off the ones that come up open after 1, 2, 3 or 6 calves, the ones that rear poor calves, the ones that have bad udders, are too hot headed at calving etc etc. Lot's and lots of sorting which all costs money.
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PostSubject: Re: Building a cowherd by culling   Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:46 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
That works for the first year sort - no cheap way to sort off the ones that come up open after 1, 2, 3 or 6 calves, the ones that rear poor calves, the ones that have bad udders, are too hot headed at calving etc etc. Lot's and lots of sorting which all costs money.


I think there are many ways to minimize those costs:

Keep the bull in much longer, almost every female will get bred, the following year you will have a calf, and cull the lates. You still have their production, and did not need to spend the money to preg check. Selling the lates as bred back 2nd calvers permits you to sell them well, especially as part of a value added program like Truline. Selling the cow and placing a value on the calf is greater than the cost of buying a bred hiefer replacement, or raising your own

Culling 10% of the cows per year, will produce a beautiful, near problem free herd in 4 years. The fourth year you will have to be very picky to come up with 10%. Every problem leaves the farm

Assuming the desire is to continue genetic progression by culling and replacing 10%, and you are able minimize the cost of replacements/and maximize the revenue from culls, then start removing props in order to reduce costs and identify the weakest animals:

eliminate worming the cows, I have noticed no difference in fleshing, half my cows are from Keeney (continue to worm weanlings)
eliminate shots for the cows (assuming a fairly closed herd), a few may slip their calves, send them down the road
eliminate protien tubs
eliminate fly control

The negative with this model is the calving season is longer, but with calving ease bulls there is little need to check cows as you would in the midst of the calving season.

The benifit is much less expence, fewer days of working cattle, and fewer problems; less expence, less work, and fewer problems, improves the life of the rancher

If there is a cost to this level of culling, it is more than offset in the increased value from the rest of your herd.

This pace of culling and replacing will produce a beautiful, consistent, valuable, and more productive herd, in a few years

Culling is good
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PostSubject: Re: Building a cowherd by culling   Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:12 am

coffelt wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
That works for the first year sort - no cheap way to sort off the ones that come up open after 1, 2, 3 or 6 calves, the ones that rear poor calves, the ones that have bad udders, are too hot headed at calving etc etc. Lot's and lots of sorting which all costs money.


I think there are many ways to minimize those costs:

Keep the bull in much longer, almost every female will get bred, the following year you will have a calf, and cull the lates. You still have their production, and did not need to spend the money to preg check. Selling the lates as bred back 2nd calvers permits you to sell them well, especially as part of a value added program like Truline. Selling the cow and placing a value on the calf is greater than the cost of buying a bred hiefer replacement, or raising your own

Culling 10% of the cows per year, will produce a beautiful, near problem free herd in 4 years. The fourth year you will have to be very picky to come up with 10%. Every problem leaves the farm

Assuming the desire is to continue genetic progression by culling and replacing 10%, and you are able minimize the cost of replacements/and maximize the revenue from culls, then start removing props in order to reduce costs and identify the weakest animals:

eliminate worming the cows, I have noticed no difference in fleshing, half my cows are from Keeney (continue to worm weanlings)
eliminate shots for the cows (assuming a fairly closed herd), a few may slip their calves, send them down the road
eliminate protien tubs
eliminate fly control

The negative with this model is the calving season is longer, but with calving ease bulls there is little need to check cows as you would in the midst of the calving season.

The benifit is much less expence, fewer days of working cattle, and fewer problems; less expence, less work, and fewer problems, improves the life of the rancher

If there is a cost to this level of culling, it is more than offset in the increased value from the rest of your herd.

This pace of culling and replacing will produce a beautiful, consistent, valuable, and more productive herd, in a few years

Culling is good
culling the visible without breeding to expose the invisible keeps one always culling...fleshing is a meaningless, promotion term; pregnant or open are economic terms...Tru-line is not a value added merchandizing program; it is a breeding concept...
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Building a cowherd by culling   Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:56 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
I may be showing my ignorance, but I think finding the 'female type' is the easy part...keep almost all heifers and select based on functional efficiency within your given environment (little to no environmental adjusters) within the context of a closed herd.

I find it more unsettling determining which bull to use...it has been scrotal structure(not size), genetics, and the ability to maintain condition.

The one criteria that gets any animal culled is bad disposition!

I thought it was concluded the problem with that type of female selection was the ongoing cost of the sort? Isn't that why we are after breeding cows with more predictably?

Sorry I left out an important fact...a closed herd. I make the wrong assumption that on this board everyone has a closed herd. Embarassed

My thought is that if I stack the pedigrees of my most functionally efficient cattle, I will eventually get the predictability.
Bottom line for my profitability...a cow needs to have a calf and a bull needs to have muscle(beef).
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PostSubject: Re: Building a cowherd by culling   Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:00 am

I probably have mentioned this before but listened to a very interesting discussion with the manager of the NE REX Ranch and Lee Leachmen [disregarding the infomercial part]. 10,000 cow composite herd that raised their own bulls with EPD's developed in herd if I remember right. A part of their operation was selling bred females including excess heifers and cows later bred then they wanted. There was also a power point presentation and what was the most interesting was the data they kept on the operation down to the exact pounds of hay they fed per cow. I wish I had down loaded it because there was a ton of good information whether it exactly fit your operation or not.
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PostSubject: Re: Building a cowherd by culling   Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:29 am

coffelt wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
That works for the first year sort - no cheap way to sort off the ones that come up open after 1, 2, 3 or 6 calves, the ones that rear poor calves, the ones that have bad udders, are too hot headed at calving etc etc. Lot's and lots of sorting which all costs money.


I think there are many ways to minimize those costs:

Keep the bull in much longer, almost every female will get bred, the following year you will have a calf, and cull the lates. You still have their production, and did not need to spend the money to preg check. Selling the lates as bred back 2nd calvers permits you to sell them well, especially as part of a value added program like Truline. Selling the cow and placing a value on the calf is greater than the cost of buying a bred hiefer replacement, or raising your own

Culling 10% of the cows per year, will produce a beautiful, near problem free herd in 4 years. The fourth year you will have to be very picky to come up with 10%. Every problem leaves the farm

Assuming the desire is to continue genetic progression by culling and replacing 10%, and you are able minimize the cost of replacements/and maximize the revenue from culls, then start removing props in order to reduce costs and identify the weakest animals:

eliminate worming the cows, I have noticed no difference in fleshing, half my cows are from Keeney (continue to worm weanlings) stopped worming in 1998; deworm weanlings on a need to basis and are sold
eliminate shots for the cows (assuming a fairly closed herd), a few may slip their calves, send them down the road no shots since 1998; sell all problems
eliminate protien tubs stopped in 2000; no minerals last 5 years
eliminate fly control stopped in 1998

The negative with this model is the calving season is longer, but with calving ease bulls there is little need to check cows as you would in the midst of the calving season.

I've done this in the past up 'til this year. This year I pulled the bulls at ~45days(ending first of June)...just put the bulls back in to breed for fall calving. My thinking is that a cow bred for someone else's calving season will be worth more than a cow calving mid/late summer(that most don't want).

The benifit is much less expence, fewer days of working cattle, and fewer problems; less expence, less work, and fewer problems, improves the life of the rancher

If there is a cost to this level of culling, it is more than offset in the increased value from the rest of your herd.

This pace of culling and replacing will produce a beautiful, consistent, valuable, and more productive herd, in a few years

That's my hope! I give myself one job...make sure my cattle have forage to eat everyday. I see any supplement or aids as disproportionally helping the inefficient cattle. The thing I have proven to myself is that good cattle can work on forage only...which is the basis of my business...selling 100% grassfed beef.

Culling is good
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Building a cowherd by culling   Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:03 am

MKeeney wrote:
culling the visible without breeding to expose the invisible keeps one always culling...fleshing is a meaningless, promotion term; pregnant or open are economic terms...Tru-line is not a value added merchandizing program; it is a breeding concept...

I agree when "fleshing" is used in promotional terms, but when used to describe individuals in a herd that maintain condition better than others...it shows proper or better endocrine function.

"Expose the invisible"...haven't quite gotten my mind wrapped around this idea...yet.

My herd consist of my 'foundation cows' and half sisters(some full sisters) of an ET bull from a flush I bought from the sire I'm building my herd around. Last fall, I lost the half brother son of the ET bull I was going to use to continue my program. I used a flush mate brother(that I "placed" with a neighbor) to the original ET bulls to breed this year. This will give me several 'genetically' sire/daughter matings and one full-sib flush-mate mating.
Don't know if this is the path to the "invisible", but next year will be interesting!
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Building a cowherd by culling   Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:14 am

This breeding open cows and selling them as fall calvers relies on two things.
1. People running fall calving herds - there are very, very few of those in Western Canada.
2. People prepared to buy cows that have a proven record of not being the best breeders.
The few late spring calvers and fewer fall calvers I have seen sold up here have traded at a price reflective of these two issues ie they were sold cheap, often at cull price. Maybe it is different in other areas.
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PostSubject: Re: Building a cowherd by culling   Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:58 am

Quote :
Culling 10% of the cows per year, will produce a beautiful, near problem free herd in 4 years. The fourth year you will have to be very picky to come up with 10%. Every problem leaves the farm

Sounds pretty broad brushed. How did you come up with the 10% in 4 years? I kind of doubt that every problem leaves after 4 years, too.
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PostSubject: Re: Building a cowherd by culling   Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:05 pm

EddieM wrote:
Quote :
Culling 10% of the cows per year, will produce a beautiful, near problem free herd in 4 years. The fourth year you will have to be very picky to come up with 10%. Every problem leaves the farm

Sounds pretty broad brushed. How did you come up with the 10% in 4 years? I kind of doubt that every problem leaves after 4 years, too.



Eddie

Please reread my comments: I said every problem leaves the farm, I did not say I don't have problems. I have far fewer problems after culling 10% per year. I have no second problems.

Four years assumes one has started with a pretty good herd, and I have just finished my fourth year, I know because I have done it

My point was a high level of culling does not have to be costly

I want to be careful not to move the discussion from LL , as I am enjoying that conversation greatly
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PostSubject: Re: Building a cowherd by culling   Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:15 pm

[quote="coffelt"
Culling 10% of the cows per year, will produce a beautiful, near problem free herd in 4 years. The fourth year you will have to be very picky to come up with 10%. Every problem leaves the farm
[/quote]

10% per year doesn't sound like very much to me. We easily cull 10% per year just on old cows, opens, and cows that lose a calf during calving. What do you consider a cull? It sounds to me like you are doing a lot better job selecting your sires than culling cows.
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PostSubject: Re: Building a cowherd by culling   Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:09 pm

[quote="Jack McNamee"]
coffelt wrote:

Culling 10% of the cows per year, will produce a beautiful, near problem free herd in 4 years. The fourth year you will have to be very picky to come up with 10%. Every problem leaves the farm

Quote :
10% per year doesn't sound like very much to me. We easily cull 10% per year just on old cows, opens, and cows that lose a calf during calving. What do you consider a cull? It sounds to me like you are doing a lot better job selecting your sires than culling cows.

I agree Jack-- and in the dry or poorer years many of the outfits up here have over 10% just in opens-- let alone all the rest of the problems...And depending on the spring and storms and calving problems some run closer to 20% in culls then 10....Some that mouth their cattle- and sell off all broken mouths figure on 20% a year because of the tooth problems that occur on this short grass grazing...

And most figure those culls as part of their marketing program- and in years like this one where 1200-1250 lb cull cows are bringing $700-750-800- its a good way to keep your herd younger while putting your younger genetics to work...
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PostSubject: Re: Building a cowherd by culling   Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:24 pm

Quote Coffelt:
"Keep the bull in much longer, almost every female will get bred, the following year you will have a calf, and cull the lates. You still have their production, and did not need to spend the money to preg check."

Without putting words in his mouth I think this is what was keeping the cull rate at 10%.
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PostSubject: Re: Building a cowherd by culling   Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:34 am

Jack McNamee wrote:
[quote="coffelt"
Culling 10% of the cows per year, will produce a beautiful, near problem free herd in 4 years. The fourth year you will have to be very picky to come up with 10%. Every problem leaves the farm

10% per year doesn't sound like very much to me. We easily cull 10% per year just on old cows, opens, and cows that lose a calf during calving. What do you consider a cull? It sounds to me like you are doing a lot better job selecting your sires than culling cows.[/quote]


Jack

My calving window is 60 days, not 45. Any cow that is outside the 60 day window is culled after they wean their (late) calf, cows that lose their calves I breed back and sell.

I use calving ease bulls and have almost no calving problems, 1 out of 300 calves will need assistance

I calve the heifers in April when the whether is warmer, after the cows, which I believe saves some calves

I do not cull for age, I have the most respect for an old, producing cow, that stays in flesh. I want her daughters in my herd

I have a young herd, the average age is probably 5 or 6 years old, I have not culled a single cow for age/mouth for a couple years, this will add to my culling percentage as my herd ages. Using 15 as an age factor, culls for age/mouth would would be 6.6% with no other factor. My 10% does not account for age/mouth culls simply because I have'nt had any.

100% of the genetics are Pharo and Keeney, it is impossible to know the effect on performance genetics might have, but I am sure it is significant.

5-7% are open, late, or lose a calf.

The additional culls, 3-5%, are herd improvent culls, this is probably the point of our conversation, relative to herd improvement

Ohio is not nearly the harsh envirement that Montana or Alberta is, please always accept my comments as coming from the Midwest

10% is aggressive in our envirement, considering the age of this herd.

The right number in Montana with an older herd very well might be 20% or higher. A friend of mine is in the business of buying old, bred cows, getting a calf or 2, and salvaging the cow. He culls 50% per year

The answer to the proper culling percentage is: It depends on the age of the herd, harshness of the envirement, genetics , and calving window length

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PostSubject: Re: Building a cowherd by culling   Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:29 am

Coffelt is sure doing a lot better with Keeney genetics than Keeney is...and a damnsite better with Pharo genetic base than I, which I found to be the worse ever on the farm for feet, fertility, and profitability...
10% opens in KY/OH spring calving herds would be a very acceptable number; UK, with pristine management and crossbreds, had 20% opens this year; herds under their guidance had up to 40% open
Anyone changing a cow herd is going to replace about 20%-25% a year if he is in a hurry; the replacements all won`t be better than what they replaced ...so the work is never done...
in summary, you can`t cull your way to a cowherd; it must be bred... and it`s best to completely ignore the marketers and charletons like Pharo promising miracles at your expense...
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