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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Model A embryos    Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:39 am

I am looking for co-operators who might participate in a co-operative effort to expand the closed herd nucleus of my Model A cows. I am not looking to flush and sell rare embryos; or the rarity of derived offspring. I am looking to put genetics on the ground and in the fields of true purebred breeders and commercial cattlemen. The greatest expense of flushing for me is not the donors, or getting embryos in the tank, but is the management and additional room for receipt females. If you might be interested in putting embryos in cows or heifers, I will furnish eggs satisfactory to either, and pay premiums for weaned ET calves commensurate with your implanting success rate. All females will return to Keeney Angus; selected and shared interest bull calves determined by typical selection and atypical genomic measured inbreeding and trait levels could be left with the producer for use and evaluation. We can discuss monetary details privately. All matings will be of inbreeding levels exceeding 15% IBC upwards to 30% IBC; no offspring will be registered.
the 15 year {13 in picture} old; 14% IBC cow below, currently being succesfully flushed by Larkota, would be typical of the donors.
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larkota



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Join date : 2010-09-23
Age : 57
Location : Kimball South Dakota

PostSubject: Re: Model A embryos    Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:05 pm


Sorry Mike I didnt notice this topic before, Bill told me about it today.
she looks even better after I got her out of that fly infested, God awful heat of Ky and put in some good warm season grass here in SD. 1st flush out of a 15 year old cow. 18 eggs froze. Very Happy calves will 15% inbred.
Mike and I have some real fun matings planned. amazing how much this cows looks like Larry's cow from 1978.
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Grassfarmer



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Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Model A embryos    Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:13 pm

Good luck with the ET project. How have you guys fared with # of calves on the ground out of these older cows? I have had disappointing results and my practitioner tells me there is emerging evidence that embryos out of old cows that look perfect at extraction may in fact not be. My worst was my old cow that produced 18 grade 1 embryos at age 20 to achieve 4 heifers and two bulls on the ground. It certainly seems to work better if we direct transfer versus freeze them first and if we avoid implanting into heifers despite the convenience.
My best result to date was 21 embryos from a 14 year old resulting in 10 calves on the ground. Not exactly stellar given the costs involved but I feel it is crucial in my situation given the tiny population I have. I plan to flush a 2nd calver next spring and will be interested to see if conception rates increase.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Model A embryos    Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:45 pm

larkota wrote:

Sorry Mike I didnt notice this topic before, Bill told me about it today.
she looks even better after I got her out of that fly infested, God awful heat of Ky and put in some good warm season grass here in SD. 1st flush out of a 15 year old cow. 18 eggs froze. Very Happy calves will 15% inbred.
Mike and I have some real fun matings planned. amazing how much this cows looks like Larry's cow from 1978.
I think my offer is filled for the present time after my conversation with a commercial breeder tonight in Iowa who understands Tru-line so fully from being a visionary himself; having never read the proposal. I am so encouraged by what is happening; and we have only just begun.
Each of you who have contacted me is greatly appreciated and we will be deciding our co-operative course of action with you before spring breeding time. I am putting in eggs again this Tuesday and what we do will be dependent on embryo inventory after that.
The mother of the Bill Byers bull is next on the flush list; an Encore daughter from an Encore daughter from a Bob grand daughter; the Encore son she will be mated to is in the tank...for my fellow visulists Smile out there, a picture...left below...I see the same somewhat unique characteristics in both cows...

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Model A embryos    Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:49 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
Good luck with the ET project. How have you guys fared with # of calves on the ground out of these older cows? I have had disappointing results and my practitioner tells me there is emerging evidence that embryos out of old cows that look perfect at extraction may in fact not be. My worst was my old cow that produced 18 grade 1 embryos at age 20 to achieve 4 heifers and two bulls on the ground. It certainly seems to work better if we direct transfer versus freeze them first and if we avoid implanting into heifers despite the convenience.
My best result to date was 21 embryos from a 14 year old resulting in 10 calves on the ground. Not exactly stellar given the costs involved but I feel it is crucial in my situation given the tiny population I have. I plan to flush a 2nd calver next spring and will be interested to see if conception rates increase.
my success rate would certainly be no better Grassfarmer; a reduction process; all in the effort to get some "litters"
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: Model A embryos    Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:45 am

I think somewhere between 6/18 and 10/21 is very much average for frozen embryo calving rate. The ET guys love to talk about 60%, but my long term is probably closer to 50%, certainly no better.
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RobertMac



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Join date : 2010-09-28
Location : Mississippi, USA

PostSubject: Re: Model A embryos    Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:16 pm

My ET man told me the most important thing in conception was the quality of the recip COWS being setup. He would just shake his head when customers would bring him a set of cows that didn't breed with a bull to put embryos in.
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Grassfarmer



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Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Model A embryos    Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:24 pm

ET guys have lots of theories why it doesn't work so good - none of them ever pointing to themselves Wink We have had really good recip cows most times - we do it in July so they are in the best cycling condition of the year. We set up some recips with drugs and also pull natural heats where the dates coincide with the aim of getting 50% more than we need. We let them check all the recips and pick the ones that feel best to them to implant. I think the bottom line is it is still an unnatural process and we pay the price for that. The best results we get are with transferring fresh embryos into cows that were pulled on natural heats. I have always had worse results with drug syncro'd heats and frozen embryos.
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Double B

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PostSubject: Re: Model A embryos    Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:36 am

So are you guys all flushing the most avg.est cows jocolor

What makes a donor in your herds?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Model A embryos    Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:42 am

Double B wrote:
So are you guys all flushing the most avg.est cows jocolor

What makes a donor in your herds?
consistently average with no problems for a long time is good; but also, I am only interested in flushing inbred cows to bulls that create inbred progeny. It is an expensive proposition; Larry`s method of breeding a cow to her son to get a son to use across the herd makes far more economic sense in herd effect...but research is rarely economic based...I want some choice that a "litter" would provide.
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: Model A embryos    Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:22 am

Mike, what kind of choosing will you be doing with the et litters?
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PostSubject: Re: Model A embryos    Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:44 am

MKeeney wrote:
Double B wrote:
So are you guys all flushing the most avg.est cows jocolor

What makes a donor in your herds?
consistently average with no problems for a long time is good; but also, I am only interested in flushing inbred cows to bulls that create inbred progeny. It is an expensive proposition; Larry`s method of breeding a cow to her son to get a son to use across the herd makes far more economic sense in herd effect...but research is rarely economic based...I want some choice that a "litter" would provide.

Have you considered pursuing a grant for your research? The Noble Foundation may be a possibility for this, especially if it will lead to more consistant bulls that are available to commercial cattlemen for $1,300, or thereabouts.
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: Model A embryos    Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:34 am

grants are like tampon's. strings attached.
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PostSubject: Re: Model A embryos    Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:36 am

What in life does not have strings attached?
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: Model A embryos    Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:41 pm

Wondering what the barnyard value of a triple or quadruple Encore bred bull would be...without papers? I suspect a good bit more than $1500. And yes, how would you choose them?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Model A embryos    Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:34 am

Mean Spirit wrote:
Mike, what kind of choosing will you be doing with the et litters?
good question; maybe none at all...I am inclined to test them all now before making a "choice" for further use
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Model A embryos    Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:41 am

dwight@steadfastbeef.com wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Double B wrote:
So are you guys all flushing the most avg.est cows jocolor

What makes a donor in your herds?
consistently average with no problems for a long time is good; but also, I am only interested in flushing inbred cows to bulls that create inbred progeny. It is an expensive proposition; Larry`s method of breeding a cow to her son to get a son to use across the herd makes far more economic sense in herd effect...but research is rarely economic based...I want some choice that a "litter" would provide.

Have you considered pursuing a grant for your research? The Noble Foundation may be a possibility for this, especially if it will lead to more consistant bulls that are available to commercial cattlemen for $1,300, or thereabouts.

the results would be too limited for a "scientific paper"; if it`s worth doing, it`s worth paying for; and it`s worth it to me; likely very few others...$1300 is not craved in stone; my prices are always based on commercial steer prices; could be $1500 this spring
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Model A embryos    Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:48 am

Mark Day wrote:
Wondering what the barnyard value of a triple or quadruple Encore bred bull would be...without papers? I suspect a good bit more than $1500. And yes, how would you choose them?
how much can any bull be worth when his value is measured in commercial dollars to his relative beneficial effect on 50 cows a year?
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Model A embryos    Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:32 am

A bulls worth can be measured in how many cows he can settle/breed in a season times $30 *(rough cost of AIing) times how many seasons will be used for plus salvage/resell value minus feed cost.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Model A embryos    Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:02 am

patb wrote:
A bulls worth can be measured in how many cows he can settle/breed in a season times $30 *(rough cost of AIing) times how many seasons will be used for plus salvage/resell value minus feed cost.

I like that formula; 50 cows x $30 PLUS $20 Keeney Angus superiority over AI stud bulls x 5 years - $2000 feed costs plus $1000 salvage = $11, 500...YELP; BEEN SELLING TOO CHEAP Very Happy
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Model A embryos    Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:47 am

What would it take the commercial producers to raise a bull calf out of his best cow?
Why should he pay more? or go someplace else?
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Model A embryos    Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:36 pm

RobertMac wrote:
What would it take the commercial producers to raise a bull calf out of his best cow?
Why should he pay more? or go someplace else?

Some herds need a infusion of new genetics to improve years of using cheap cow settlers. Nothing is stopping a commercial guy from using a bull out of his best cow but what was that cow bred to?
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rross



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PostSubject: Re: Model A embryos    Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:23 pm

RobertMac wrote:
What would it take the commercial producers to raise a bull calf out of his best cow?
Why should he pay more? or go someplace else?

How about just a good cow???

I have four bull calves here I saved back all 1/2 brothers(same sire). My pick of the four however not the most eye catching or out of the best cow per se is out of a 12 yr. old cow that is not perfect, but she is very good at doing her job. One of her most redeeming qualities, she still has a full set of teeth. Which at her age and the way I run them says a lot. Hopefully that trait will pass down to her off spring adding to the longevity of the daughters.

I will use him on his 1/2 sisters.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Model A embryos    Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:12 pm

rross wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
What would it take the commercial producers to raise a bull calf out of his best cow?
Why should he pay more? or go someplace else?

How about just a good cow???

I have four bull calves here I saved back all 1/2 brothers(same sire). My pick of the four however not the most eye catching or out of the best cow per se is out of a 12 yr. old cow that is not perfect, but she is very good at doing her job. One of her most redeeming qualities, she still has a full set of teeth. Which at her age and the way I run them says a lot. Hopefully that trait will pass down to her off spring adding to the longevity of the daughters.

I will use him on his 1/2 sisters.
commercial producer wisely becoming a breeder to met his own needs...but another sad commentary on the state of the registered society...society is more applicable than breeder I do believe...
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: Model A embryos    Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:07 pm

Quote :
how much can any bull be worth when his value is measured in commercial dollars to his relative beneficial effect on 50 cows a year?

What would 50 open heifers sired by this bull costs? What about 50 daughters in production?

If he changes the $EN value from 0 to +10 and for 50 cows and those 50 cows stay in the herd on average of 8 years that is a savings of $4000 on a guy's feed bill.

If a cow stays in the herd an extra 3 years what is that worth?

Maybe now this commercial guy can sell his extra heifers for a premium to other commercial cattleman. What might that be worth?

His salvage value will be equal to the cost for the buyer - should never happen for a planned linebred bull or any bull for that matter.

$1500 is too cheap but if you want to give me the pick of the litter for that let me know. Just don't get upset if I take them all Very Happy
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