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 Keeney Angus 2013 Spring Sale April 6, 2013

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Keeney Angus 2013 Spring Sale April 6, 2013   Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:32 pm

Rod asked if this heifer mate to pen 2 bulls would match the postcard heifers...I said I think maybe not ...



I expect them to be a bit more like this cow...the dam of pictured half sib bred bull in Pen 2...



this kind might not be right for everyone; but might be right for someone looking to fertilize and finesse the fat kind..

here`s another



the paternal grand dam of Pen 2; and also a few in pen 4...



Rocket Man`s dam was handy today...



she`s a half sister to Unwanted`s dam...here is a maternal sister to Unwanted...I notice the teats a little closer together on some Unwanted daughters...same here...I can live with it... Smile



After seeing Mark Day`s Blythemaker heifers, and watching a few here; I`m glad I have several calves by the old boy this spring; and Dunkum has CE descendents as well from a full brother...



they are certainly not all this deep bodied; nor do I want them to be...a last remnant of "fleshing ease" genetics in this cow`s bottom side...
so that`s the gaunlet of what I hope the bulls from this year`s sale should do...different for a purpose according to your needs or wants; how predictable ??

luckily, not that difficult to be more so than most... Smile



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PostSubject: Re: Keeney Angus 2013 Spring Sale April 6, 2013   Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:26 pm

Mike i am calving out 35 Red angus heifers Daughters of the most popular Red angus sires. And it would be nice if they had udders as good as your old cow. So far My heifers are far better. will get some pics to share of the sorry uddered heifers. They have set me back at least 5 yrs. I knew better so no one to blame but myself. AH the price of education.
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PostSubject: Re: Keeney Angus 2013 Spring Sale April 6, 2013   Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:42 pm

Wayne,
we read all the promotion of production...we never hear about the expense of problems that must be culled...
glad to be out of the number rat race; got an email today promoting a herd as the source of $EN...only to find the first bull promoted as "better" having the poorest $EN...
so, it`s still a rat race jocolor
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PostSubject: Re: Keeney Angus 2013 Spring Sale April 6, 2013   Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:22 pm

Mike I am getting a good laugh at myself. One powell heifer has calved and she is beautiful 4 more and no worries with them all will have nice udders. i have 15 of my own and no problems with them. I just get a kick out of how fast these most improved genetics take a guy back to where he has already been. These are just sad cattle, but we all got to go back every now and then to appericate just where we have gotten too with our own selections. I had the chance last spring to expand and expand i did. When i get the pics it should be shared as too just what one can expect from the greatest bulls the industry has to offer, this was not unexpected results but they are educational.
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LCP



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PostSubject: Re: Keeney Angus 2013 Spring Sale April 6, 2013   Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:58 pm

MKeeney wrote:




this kind might not be right for everyone; but might be right for someone looking to fertilize and finesse the fat kind..



To my untrained eye, I am wondering why this kind would not be right for everyone? Its pictures of cows like this that make me depressed looking at some of my cows.
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PostSubject: Re: Keeney Angus 2013 Spring Sale April 6, 2013   Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:44 am

Luke,
my eye is untrained as well when seeing someone elses cattle under someone elses management...another reason to use those you are most familiar with; your own...
Some might notice the babies aren`t tagged; most all of my older cows now have an aversion to you messing with their baby calves; 99% were not that way as twos...a learned thing; too many coyotes; and as of late; too many black headed buzzards...though the roar of shotguns seems to have put them to back to fishing instead of beef farming; maybe just an absence of afterbirth as calving winds down...but the black headed ones in groups of 15-25 aggressively circling a cow calving or a newborn can be more than annoying; can be deadly...
we`ll tag at May vaccination; pair up the possible bull candidates from there; be more discriminating on the bulls...as to the heifers all getting paired up and recorded? not really neccessary...the simpleton approach of not looking to create or select for difference; small pastures, personal knowledge of the cows; and keep them all...
life at 67 brings thoughts like "why do we spend so much measuring what can`t be seen in a cow? " Is it because the typical registered mainstream cow is a by product of terminal trait selection used to carry terminal traits to the next generation of calves; instead of being a functional reproductive unit?
In maternal breeding; it seems the bull is the by-product; the mere carrier of the maternal characteristics you wish to maintain or enhance in your functional cowherd...
we can forget the complexies of tru-line and such...until the beef industry can simply think and select in divided maternal and terminal segments of priority; not much change in profitability or predictability is going to happen...
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Keeney Angus 2013 Spring Sale April 6, 2013   Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:27 am

Proper calving facilities are a must for the profitability of a progressive seedstock operation. Individual pens out of the weather and away from scavenging critters are a sure sign of a caring professional cattleman. The seperation of the cow from the calf as soon as it is born is essential so proper tagging, weighing, vaccinating, permanent identification, NAIS compliance,source and age verification, DNA extraction, as well as any elective operations the progressive cattleman needs to perform. Perhaps some voluntary research projects for the collective good of the breed. Remember, force feeding bagged colostrum is reccomended, just to be on the safe side because the cow might not be happy when you let her back in with her calf. Remember, cows are not very smart. Caution must be practiced. When reintroducing the calf to his mother, remember, if the cow is not kind and loving to both the caretaker and the calf, and the sire of the cow is not a popular AI sire, it is a genetic issue which will require blame and scorn in a public chatroom toward lowly incompetant breeder of the sire. If the sire of the cow is a Proven AI sire, the fault must be your own. In the future, be sure to use only PROVEN AI sires from reputable AI companies. Rest assured, these management practices are completely necessary and any claims to the contrary are the remarks of a marginal producer, not a progressive cattleman.

April Fools practice in the realm and language of those to whom every day is April Fools Day.

KP- Where the only thing Progressive is the annoying commercial.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Keeney Angus 2013 Spring Sale April 6, 2013   Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:20 am

Kent Powell wrote:
Proper calving facilities are a must for the profitability of a progressive seedstock operation. Individual pens out of the weather and away from scavenging critters are a sure sign of a caring professional cattleman. The seperation of the cow from the calf as soon as it is born is essential so proper tagging, weighing, vaccinating, permanent identification, NAIS compliance,source and age verification, DNA extraction, as well as any elective operations the progressive cattleman needs to perform. Perhaps some voluntary research projects for the collective good of the breed. Remember, force feeding bagged colostrum is reccomended, just to be on the safe side because the cow might not be happy when you let her back in with her calf. Remember, cows are not very smart. Caution must be practiced. When reintroducing the calf to his mother, remember, if the cow is not kind and loving to both the caretaker and the calf, and the sire of the cow is not a popular AI sire, it is a genetic issue which will require blame and scorn in a public chatroom toward lowly incompetant breeder of the sire. If the sire of the cow is a Proven AI sire, the fault must be your own. In the future, be sure to use only PROVEN AI sires from reputable AI companies. Rest assured, these management practices are completely necessary and any claims to the contrary are the remarks of a marginal producer, not a progressive cattleman.

April Fools practice in the realm and language of those to whom every day is April Fools Day.

KP- Where the only thing Progressive is the annoying commercial.

Why castrate, weigh and tag calf away from cow? Dna extraction is better left to later in calfs life. Life is to short to deal with animals that cannot tell the difference between humans and potentail predators. The family is worth more than any over protective or aggressive animal. Follow the money and that explains most of the common industry reccomended practices.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Keeney Angus 2013 Spring Sale April 6, 2013   Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:11 am

PatB wrote:

"Why castrate, weigh and tag calf away from cow?" ..... "Life is to short to deal with animals that cannot tell the difference between humans and potentail predators."

So are you for or against Pat? I'm confused scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Keeney Angus 2013 Spring Sale April 6, 2013   Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:36 am

Kent Powell wrote:
Proper calving facilities are a must for the profitability of a progressive seedstock operation. Individual pens out of the weather and away from scavenging critters are a sure sign of a caring professional cattleman. The seperation of the cow from the calf as soon as it is born is essential so proper tagging, weighing, vaccinating, permanent identification, NAIS compliance,source and age verification, DNA extraction, as well as any elective operations the progressive cattleman needs to perform. Perhaps some voluntary research projects for the collective good of the breed. Remember, force feeding bagged colostrum is reccomended, just to be on the safe side because the cow might not be happy when you let her back in with her calf. Remember, cows are not very smart. Caution must be practiced. When reintroducing the calf to his mother, remember, if the cow is not kind and loving to both the caretaker and the calf, and the sire of the cow is not a popular AI sire, it is a genetic issue which will require blame and scorn in a public chatroom toward lowly incompetant breeder of the sire. If the sire of the cow is a Proven AI sire, the fault must be your own. In the future, be sure to use only PROVEN AI sires from reputable AI companies. Rest assured, these management practices are completely necessary and any claims to the contrary are the remarks of a marginal producer, not a progressive cattleman.

April Fools practice in the realm and language of those to whom every day is April Fools Day.

KP- Where the only thing Progressive is the annoying commercial.

Now Kent how can you talk about what you know little about. taking the calf away at birth is important to the survival of the calf so the stupid mother can be Aced so she wont kill the calf, If they calve in the open they have no idea what calf to pick, Then you better have a squeeze chute handy so you can milk the damn things because there tits are too big to suck. And yes you tag these things as quick as possible, as well as castrate, and use a knife and make dam sure you get every last one. ( a band may break) Again I will try to get a pic or two today of the mainstream wonders.
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PostSubject: Re: Keeney Angus 2013 Spring Sale April 6, 2013   Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:56 am

Life is too short to select for cows that differeniate between humans and coyotes when her baby bawls...in the KmA; there will be no seeking of genetic solutions to problems which can be 100% cured with less management and measurement...

A cattle breeder might put his boots on around 10 am as farao once suggested...
however,
a marketer must surely get out pretty damn early so he can brag about taking more measurements than anyone in the industry...

http://www.pharocattle.com/bullsort.php

add one more sort by scoring temperament of the cow at birth ...what else could one measure?



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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: Keeney Angus 2013 Spring Sale April 6, 2013   Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:29 am

MKeeney wrote:
Life is too short to select for cows that differeniate between humans and coyotes when her baby bawls...in the KmA; there will be no seeking of genetic solutions to problems which can be 100% cured with less management and measurement...

A cattle breeder might put his boots on around 10 am as farao once suggested...
however,
a marketer must surely get out pretty damn early so he can brag about taking more measurements than anyone in the industry...

http://www.pharocattle.com/bullsort.php

add one more sort by scoring temperament of the cow at birth ...what else could one measure?




When helping someone with a Quick Sort, the first two things we need to know are what breed(s) they are interested in and what their budget (maximum bid) is.

kinda like a used car dealer asking how much you got? followed with do I have a deal for you.



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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Keeney Angus 2013 Spring Sale April 6, 2013   Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:57 am

A few years ago, we were calving on a 500 acre patch of graze out wheat not far from home. I had always taken pride in culling cows who were both too protective, and not protective enough. In this season, the cows got meaner and meaner. One of my favorite cows crawled on top of the ATV to get me. I cought fewer and fewer calves to tag them. My BW contemporary group was shot. The calving book had line after line in the comment section that read SELL THE WITCH! I finally found the cause. The year before I was gifted a Great Pyranees Puppy. I was going out when it was light enough to see and the dew was burned off. I went out earlier and earlier until I found out the big white dog had been going out at first light and taking afterbirth away from the cows. She wasn't shy about it. When I got out there, every new mother was mad and ready to take it out on me.

Sadly, I do have an indoor calving facility. I haven't used it since 94 to calve in. It is now a goat barn.

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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Keeney Angus 2013 Spring Sale April 6, 2013   Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:24 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
PatB wrote:

"Why castrate, weigh and tag calf away from cow?" ..... "Life is to short to deal with animals that cannot tell the difference between humans and potentail predators."

So are you for or against Pat? I'm confused scratch

If I cannot tag, weigh and castrate the new calf next to a cow with out becoming lunch then she needs to find a new home in the fall in 1 pound packages.
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PostSubject: Re: Keeney Angus 2013 Spring Sale April 6, 2013   Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:31 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Life is too short to select for cows that differeniate between humans and coyotes when her baby bawls...in the KmA; there will be no seeking of genetic solutions to problems which can be 100% cured with less management and measurement...

A cattle breeder might put his boots on around 10 am as farao once suggested...
however,
a marketer must surely get out pretty damn early so he can brag about taking more measurements than anyone in the industry...

http://www.pharocattle.com/bullsort.php

add one more sort by scoring temperament of the cow at birth ...what else could one measure?




My young daughter goes with me sometimes at feeding/calf check time. Overly aggressive cows are a danger to her so they will be eliminated and better suited animals raised. Only have 1 daughter and plenty of cows. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Keeney Angus 2013 Spring Sale April 6, 2013   Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:02 pm

PatB wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
PatB wrote:

"Why castrate, weigh and tag calf away from cow?" ..... "Life is to short to deal with animals that cannot tell the difference between humans and potentail predators."

So are you for or against Pat? I'm confused scratch

If I cannot tag, weigh and castrate the new calf next to a cow with out becoming lunch then she needs to find a new home in the fall in 1 pound packages.

Why, and how, do you weigh them Pat ?
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Keeney Angus 2013 Spring Sale April 6, 2013   Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:43 pm

The calves are weighed on a portable scale that I lift with calf in sling. I find the bw helpful in the selection of the next generation of sires as the extremes are made into steers at tagging. With 2 plus generations of bw on the cow families you have a better idea on which cow families not to save bulls from.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Keeney Angus 2013 Spring Sale April 6, 2013   Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:39 pm

At risk of being ridiculed by the serious ranchers on here I'll share my system. I still catch every calf on day one, tag them, castrate where needed and am now applying this nasal spray as we found it to be helpful in our problem with pneumonia. I weigh potential bull calves to satisfy the curiosity of bull buyers rather to prove anything to myself. In my situation it is more labour and time efficient to process the calves at this stage. To accomplish this I use a contraption that I inherited with the property - a piece of welded up junk that lifts with the loader and acts as a cage when lowered over a calf. It works in my situation because we rarely calve in fields bigger than 10 acres, the cows are used to the tractor and it's safe. I had one very "near death experience" with an Angus cow after 20 years of tagging things in a walk up situation without incident. It's not a risk i'll take again. At the same time I'm not about to cull my cows down to pet level because of something that is a perfectly natural instinct.
One thing I discovered after that accident is cows can sure detect fear. I'd never been afraid of animals in my life but ever since there has been a slight hesitation on my part and the cows know it. Now I understand why some of cows used to put the run on workers we had when they never bothered me.

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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Keeney Angus 2013 Spring Sale April 6, 2013   Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:19 pm

Dad USED to have a cow that would hunt me for the first month after she calved if I entered the pasture. Her daughters were dangerous if you had to handle calfs. Several dead calves later due to not being able to treat for scours or assist in cold weather and mommas went to beef. I weigh and tag the babies in some pretty rough areas in the land conversion area and cages are not an option. My family's and personnal health/life is worth more than any cow(s) possible genetics.
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PostSubject: Re: Keeney Angus 2013 Spring Sale April 6, 2013   Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:48 pm

PatB wrote:
The calves are weighed on a portable scale that I lift with calf in sling. I find the bw helpful in the selection of the next generation of sires as the extremes are made into steers at tagging. With 2 plus generations of bw on the cow families you have a better idea on which cow families not to save bulls from.

selection based on cow families ? I`ll buy 2 bw`s telling you something about an individual to avoid; but the "cow family" is a stretch; especially when the sire side stems from outside the "cow family" as well...cow families are footnote fodder unless the family has been intensifed top and bottom...
I tagged 90% of the calves last year; I failed to record in my pocket notebook which 10% I did not...I`ve decided the discovery process isn`t worth the return on investment...
I have a feeling if you moved your cows here Pat; you would soon be a corn farmer...

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PostSubject: Re: Keeney Angus 2013 Spring Sale April 6, 2013   Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:55 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
At risk of being ridiculed by the serious ranchers on here I'll share my system. I still catch every calf on day one, tag them, castrate where needed and am now applying this nasal spray as we found it to be helpful in our problem with pneumonia. I weigh potential bull calves to satisfy the curiosity of bull buyers rather to prove anything to myself. In my situation it is more labour and time efficient to process the calves at this stage. To accomplish this I use a contraption that I inherited with the property - a piece of welded up junk that lifts with the loader and acts as a cage when lowered over a calf. It works in my situation because we rarely calve in fields bigger than 10 acres, the cows are used to the tractor and it's safe. I had one very "near death experience" with an Angus cow after 20 years of tagging things in a walk up situation without incident. It's not a risk i'll take again. At the same time I'm not about to cull my cows down to pet level because of something that is a perfectly natural instinct.
One thing I discovered after that accident is cows can sure detect fear. I'd never been afraid of animals in my life but ever since there has been a slight hesitation on my part and the cows know it. Now I understand why some of cows used to put the run on workers we had when they never bothered me.


where there is a will; there is a way Smile


Last edited by MKeeney on Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Keeney Angus 2013 Spring Sale April 6, 2013   Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:46 pm

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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Keeney Angus 2013 Spring Sale April 6, 2013   Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:19 pm

MKeeney wrote:
PatB wrote:
The calves are weighed on a portable scale that I lift with calf in sling. I find the bw helpful in the selection of the next generation of sires as the extremes are made into steers at tagging. With 2 plus generations of bw on the cow families you have a better idea on which cow families not to save bulls from.

selection based on cow families ? I`ll buy 2 bw`s telling you something about an individual to avoid; but the "cow family" is a stretch; especially when the sire side stems from outside the "cow family" as well...cow families are footnote fodder unless the family has been intensifed top and bottom...
I tagged 90% of the calves last year; I failed to record in my pocket notebook which 10% I did not...I`ve decided the discovery process isn`t worth the return on investment...
I have a feeling if you moved your cows here Pat; you would soon be a corn farmer...


I would NOT be a corn farmer. Very Happy We did that when I was younger and have no desire to deal with corn silage or planting, weed control and all the rest that goes with it.

Some of the cow families have been around the farm since the 80's and the rest from early to mid 90's. Several have a tendancy to have large calves regardless of sire and others 1 has light to medium weight calfs. If a person had DNA from the founding cows and followed each generation I would bet some cow families pass on a large pieces of the founding cows dna to their offspring.
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PostSubject: Re: Keeney Angus 2013 Spring Sale April 6, 2013   Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:53 pm

MKeeney wrote:
http://www.calfid.com/calfcorral/products/calf_corral.shtml

Three problems with those things Mike.
1. they cost money.
2. you need a quad to attach them to - they also cost money.
3. a cow can still climb on top of the quad.

I'll stick with my Flintstones solution.

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Keeney Angus 2013 Spring Sale April 6, 2013   Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:40 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
http://www.calfid.com/calfcorral/products/calf_corral.shtml

Three problems with those things Mike.
1. they cost money.
2. you need a quad to attach them to - they also cost money.
3. a cow can still climb on top of the quad.

I'll stick with my Flintstones solution.


I wonder what a cow`s reaction to bear spray would be Rolling Eyes ....hmmm...nahhhhh Smile ...I think I`ll stick to my fool proof system...but when , not if, the national ID comes to the USA...Who`s going to be the tag police?

how does bear spray affect brand inspectors, OT?
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