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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:45 am

DV posted on 11/21/2011


The link I have provided below to an essay on curiosity dovetails nicely into our phone conversation this morning as well as your last post. I'm working on a drawing/cartoon called "LL as a seated crow". When I get done, I'll post it here. DV in the vicinity of wondering

Larry Leonhardt posted on 11/21/2011

Thanks for the thought provoking article on curiosity DV. It especially helps me understand myself. As mentioned during our phone con, the thrill of discovery has little to do with monetary values, fame or glory. Some people get their thrills out of the latter; some people just have to take a watch apart to see what makes it tick; the others are just tryin' to make a livin'. With my ingrained lack of self-confidence, I have this compulsive need for reaffirmation of the things I do.....reassurance that when my curiosity opened the paper sack, the snake inside was real and not stuffed.....the question is now what do I do, close the sack and remain in the zoo, or......?

I can't wait to see your artistic depictions of todays registered society members being captured primates in a zoo...... who lack the courage to leave, though the door is open, dependent on the zookeepers to feed them......they must be the ones that coined the phrase "curiosity killed the cat". Smile Smile With my "reflections" being a philosophical topic, my curiosity is wondering who will win the impending contest for readership - DV who is clawing into technology by way of burrowing, scratching, snarling, snapping, scrapping, etc, verses the Cors-I-can brothers who under the "rules" category are starting a new ""LIVE SHOW". It'll be curious to see how this new combine separates the wheat from the trash using a rotary and a rasp bar combo. And I'm dying from curiosity whether this will be the cartoon before the main feature....or not Smile

Especially for the jimmers, er, I mean skimmers of the world, I'm repeating the last part of Roland Toys article "Curiosity - the Mysterious Compound" just for them.

If the fuel of creativity is inspiration, the invisible engine of creativity is curiosity. Curiosity is in essence a spiritual engine. Science accumulates facts and information using intellect. But does science, especially paradigm-changing science, arise solely from intellectual machinations? Was the driving force behind Darwin's inspiration qualitatively different from what compelled Milton to put words on paper? When Einstein published his three radical papers in 1905, did those surprising notions not arise from curiosity?
What is scientific or artistic surprise but a moment in which God's timeless wish to know Himself, expressed through curiosity, becomes vividly conscious in the individual mind? Art and science languish without inspiration, which is asleep without curiosity. Surprise is an excellent consequence of curiosity, a delightful shadow cast by the transitory culmination of the fundamental impulse of curiosity. A surprising way of looking at nature can happen after laborious reasoning, or it can happen like a sudden breeze on a still day; it can happen in a laboratory or in a dream. Perhaps one way of judging a work of art or great advancement in science is the potency of the surprise one feels even after it has become familiar.

Curiosity is universal, infinitely miscible in the fabric of creation, and therefore infinitely free. But it is also an experience of individual consciousness. That is why societies that value the freedom of the individual tend to produce the greatest contributions to mankind's development.

Undoubtedly, the future will bring artistic forms as far removed from today's art as Photoshop is from prehistoric cave painting, and will bring scientific insights as far removed from primordial fascination with fire is from our ability to split atoms for electrical power. But whatever artistic and scientific wonders the future holds, they will all be products of curiosity

Keeping in mind that everything in our understanding of creation is an approximation, one way of understanding curiosity is as an approximation that can be expressed as a classical velocity of consciousness:

where C = curiosity,

L = longing, and

I = imagination.

Perhaps somebody else will be curious enough to look into this idea more rigorously.

LL lost in space while the LIVE SHOW begins
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:13 am

Larry Leonhardt posted on 11/27/2011

BACK FROM SPACE .....Reporting on my visit to nursery rhyme land after watching cross-eyed hammerheads with scrambled brains peck away at trees. My question is how many pecks could Woody Woodpecker ( alias for pope Beenadick.....Bootheels new alias for Jack) peck if he pecked all night and day? How much different will Mark's herd be after 57 years of genes gone astray with papers now be without them? Or, is OTB's concept of irony and ignorance all there is to say since genes are attracted to each other in many a different way?

So if cowzy day and goatzy day and liddle lamzy divey
kiddley divey too, wooden shoe
And if these words sound queer and funny to your ear, a little bit jumbled and jivey
What Tom 'n Mojo didino day mist a go at puriteemaster Wiley
Now there were four then twenty blackravins all seated in a row
Tom 'n Mojo enjoyin' cookin baked 'em into a pie
While I enjoyed bein' annoyed as just 'n ole smokin' crow
Wasn't that a dainty dish to set before all of you and eye?

And when the party was over the birds began to sing
Bout Tom 'n Joe's real live show coverin' near ev'ear thing
Pumpkin heads, woodchucks, nose hairs 'n two uddered flashin'
Sheep puddin', head bashin', all justa keep us a clappin' & laffin'

Joe was in the countin' house enjoyin' his new found fame
CC was in her parlour quotin' the same ole Mae West game
Jack and Jill went up the hill, Humpty Dumpty had a great fall
When down came a raven deliverin' my brand new crystal ball

It says dasher and dancer and on donner and blitzen
Make no sense arguin' and banterin' bout mixin' what needs fixen
Been up that well known creek before without a paddle
It clearly said that fightin' the currents is a losin' battle

When down the chimney here comes DV with strange artistry
Carryin' his bag full of trix shoutin' new mysterious comradry
He came with a clatter to wake us all up
Grover's been a pullin' his sleigh ever since he'd been a pup

Hi Ho Hi Ho says laffin' is the best medicine to cure all our ills
From racin' and chasin' and all our other spills
Says we'll blast away from the past not knowin' where we're goin'
Puts Fesue in charge of mission control to keep confucious a flowin'.

He seated the ravin' raven to be Chief of our blue sky
To enlighten the minds of those starry eyes now wonderin' why
Cosmonauts DYKSTAR and MOJO will navigate - this bold new project
CC WEST will tag along just'a keep 'em straight - usin' her female logic

DV's thunder and lightnin will power this excitin' journey to Triton
Fueled by his evolutionary sketches outlining our new direction
And BOB H will demonstrate how the girls and boys make our little toys
While the raven's are wearin' ear muffs shutin' out all that mainstream BS noise


As blind men feelin' an elephant's parts prating about an elephant not one of them has seen!
The disputants rail on 'n on in utter ignorance of what each other mean
Each in his own opinion disputed loud and long
Each was partly in the right but all were in the wrong!

So when makin' the parts let's remember the lessons in this nursery rhymin' song
If cows eat hay and goats eat hay and little calves eat ivy
Then if kids eat ivy too, wouldn't Tom 'n Joe eat their puddin' jus' the same as you
Aaahh, we'll remember that mares need oats and does need oats jus' the same as the males do

It is with thanx that fate saved DV and MK which was against his KC Rule
While the Crow is followin' Tom 'n Joe's real live shows on his way to school
Learnin' that CC's fleece was once as white as OT's driftin' snow
All the children laffed and played to see that scrambled brains were jus' nother tool tellin' us where we can go

And that gene'us is jus' a simple mutative gene evolving from craziness among the very fittest
Festus is gonna issue a prize, to the rav/n that has the far'est look in their eyes
Nominees must describe their entrees with 4 and 20 words or less, originality of the most uncommon prose
Blind men don't qualify, the 'prise may be the Crow fly'n right down 'n peckin' off your nose Smile

LL currently in the land of enchantment
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:54 pm

TomD posted on 11-27-2011

Deserting his post
at guarding the coast,
a young Leif Lionheart moved inland.

And taking his bride
he searched deep and wide,
for the fabled lost land of Vinland.

Treasure came fast
and quickly amassed,
as Lionheart's Vikings kept fightin'

But then the tide turned
and the cardhouse was burned,
after the Clash of the Titans.

Leif questioned Wye
with new light in his eye,
when the sea got too wendy and rough.

Then our phoenix phriend
drew his bow again,
and took aim at what was enough.

to be continued...maybe, TD, sunday morning

Larry wrote on 11-29-2011

Aye, aye, Tom - "everything we think about has already been thought about by someone else before" - jus puttin' the thoughts in practice; ships ahoy matey  Smile

Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass; It is about learning to dance in the rain!
.J. Gallagher

LL still learnin' how to dance

TomD wrote on 12-8-2011

Twentyfour word assignment just before the deadline:

I've got plenty nose to lose,
So I believe I'll risk it.
Happiness is simple Joe,
I'll fry the bacon, you make the biscuits.

TD, always good at contests that nobody else enters.
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:26 am

Larry wrote on 12-6-2011

Gently snowing on a calm Sunday mornin' just sittin' here thinkin' how my last Sunday's post was a befitting tribute to Dykstar and Mojo in our attempts to make sense out of cause us to just stop and think.   Kendra ( a conscientious teacher with inquisitive psychological and racing thoughts struggling/frustrated with the deceptions in public "systems of education") recently wrote me saying she finds herself aggravated with the amount of time she has lost to just "thinking" about things that rarely change in the end.  

Procrastinating is my favorite hobby.   When Tom recited the "Little Red Hen" under a different topic likely triggered by the  ", not I" in the sketch of Little Boy Blue posted above, the goose and the duck reminded me of the attitude of a growing segment of society towards more and more rules and regulations intended to save us from ourselves......somewhat of an enforced survival of the unfittest system under the guise of compassion......a vital  innate human quality to help the helpless.

Kendra asked me "what experience in school brought out my best or worst qualities....was there anything that someone did/could have presented during the school years that would have supported/accelerated my journey?"  

Its been quite some time since I thought about my ingrained childhood school experiences    Wondering how others might answer Kendra, I decided to bring her question(s) out publicly on this open philosophical forum for any other opinions.    Reflecting  beyond the basic three "R's", I suppose my school days and post school journey were more about how the subtle but accumulative impact of nurture can override our own inherent nature that brings out our best or worst qualities.   These include the "R's" of Responsibility, Right from Rwrong, Religion, Reason, Reality,  Reward,  Rhetorical questions and the Reverting Rhythms of life.  I must confess that a primary part of my journey was influenced by one two, buckle my shoe, three four, close the door, five six, pick up sticks, seven eight, lay them straight, nine ten, you BIG fat hen.  

Kendra also asked herself the burning question "At what point am I no longer able to remain true to my convictions within a system that doesn't value those same convictions?....You know....people who don't question the whys of life sure appear to move through life effortlessly compared to all these "why" questions that we invite."

Perhaps what could be presented during our school years is to spend alot more time on the basic fundamentals debating the "whats and whyfors" of the other "R's" as we apply them to each of our own different interests in life.   Why did Tom sign off with "reverting  back to the pure nursery rhymes of the good old days?"   What have we lost in a "use it or lose it" system?   Why did the cows eat the Crow's corn while Little Boy Blue sleeps, what did his horn represent?    And why did Little Bo Beep lose her sheep while she was asleep, it was no joke when she awoke wondereing  why their tails were all hung on a tree to dry, expecting their tails to still be wagging behind them, unable to reattach them.....why did a farmers wife cut off the tails of the 3 blind mice with a carving knife ?  

With an abundance of Foxxy Loxxys in this world, I can understand Kendra's interest in psychology .    Perhaps the version illustrated on of  Henny Penny, also known as Chicken Little, should be required viewing by beef producers as a forewarning.    Thinking about things that rarely change in the end,   I suppose a Bootheel version could be Little Miss Muff sat on her duff eating her turds and whey as the espieders scared everyone away........but if the Crow learned not to be scared of the harmless straw man, Kendra could utiliize "curiosity" and change the nursery rhyme to....

Jack and DV planted their magic beans, why did DV and Jack end up choppin down their giant beanstalk?     During the border wars, why did D. Biggs with spotted Piggs need to explain why the big piggy goes to market, the 2nd piggy stays  home, the 3rd piggy gets roast beef, the 4th piggy gets none and the last little piggy went  wee, wee, wee, all the way home mumbling something about Foxxy Loxxy's cluck hens.

Kendra despises intentional deception so one of the alternative accumulative reverting rhythms of life is the "R" of  Revolution.   Given the choice, could/should Kendra focus her presentations more on the basic fundamentals to reduce the conformity of deception in her struggles without the need to open a private school ......or not?     It quickly became evident from my accumulation of Reality that nurture could not override Foxxy Loxxy's inherent natural appetite for chickens nor prevent man from evolving  into a PIGG

Consequently, to find a new private world, DYKSTAR and MOJO with CC WEST tagging along are off in their Taurus spaceship

Escaping from Rumplestiltskin's black hole of gravity suckin' everyone in

With the aid of a powerful boost by a Winston 100 sized huff and puff from the smokin' black CROW claimin' to have discovered the formula to make a goose lay golden eggs for all of the downtrodden

From tiny acorns great oaks grow, three blind ravens are now busy in space exploring the magnetic positive and negative forces on the particles in our spinning galaxy.    Reporting back to Fesue's mission control room on a regular basis,  DV will continue to interpret their caws with visual  illustrations for Little Kendra's Coloring Book as they pass by Venus and Mars on their way to the planet of  Granite.

LL thinkin' the similar position of Rumpy and the Crow is the result of functional selection for a similar endpoint with a more realistic, less deceptive the vicinity of helping Kendra extract the common scents out of all this nonsense.
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:39 pm

MK wrote on 12-9-2011

Kendra asked
"At what point am I no longer able to remain true to my convictions within a system that doesn't value those same convictions?....You know....people who don't question the whys of life sure appear to move through life effortlessly compared to all these "why" questions that we invite."

Kendra, bad news...worse for John...I doubt you can be happy remaining true to your convictions in a system that doesn`t value those convictions; you have to start a school so those with the same convictions can associate, re-inforce, and expand on those convictions...convictions must lead to action to remain happy; you can`t cling to the past while building a new future and not be torn between the two...conviction without courage is fairly useless...
of course, you can stay in the system and try and change that system rather than compete by building a new system; but that usually only results in a cop out; a t-post to the head of the ingrained system is not a thorn in the side; just a briar in the finger; they can be plucked out and disinfected with hardly a notice...
it takes a better system producing better results to compete with the ingrained system...compete and conquer are not the will always be necessary to co-exist with stupidity; but must one co-operate with it or be dominated by it ?
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:45 pm

Hilly wrote on 12-10-2011

The good old days... notable that many nursery rhymes stem from times of persecution and death, the three blind mice believed by their faith they would live happily ever after being planted in Contrary Mary’s garden.

I would think from my childhood experiences, that it would be next to imposable to pin point certain positive or negatives and there random affects on children as shaped by their unique interpretations.

However teaching fundamental principles base in our current and sometimes crude reality would be much more constructive then current politically correct fantasy.

As a parent I want to be there for my kids, but if they are relying on me to never do them wrong and always be there when they need me, I will fail them. As hard as it is for my pride to admit, the quicker I’m replaced by their own faith that transcends mortal life and removes what I can do, right and wrong, that has to be the focus to fulfill their peace with enough in the present and on to happily ever after, by removing motivation based on fear while giving perspective on material wealth.

Did Jack ever regret chopping down the bean stock; did Foxxy Loxxy ever get hungry again?

DYKSTAR and MOJO with CC WEST may want Xzibit to pimp their ride Cool

Can the three bind ravens find inner peace against the centrifugal force of a spinning Galaxy scratch

There is hope if Humpty Alexander Dumpty can pull himself together again cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:50 pm

Larry Leonhardt wrote on 12-17-2011

December 17th  was THEE STABILIZER was also the day that my wife and I celebrated our 56th wedding anniversary.    On that special day, especially since Betty (formerly Elizabeth Ruth Kelly) was awarded the KC "Cattle Breeder Wife of the Year", to enhance her new image I suggested we get one of those reverse mortgages on our house, charter a plane and fly to Colorado and buy ourselves the best STABILIZER bull for sale in America to create a little excitement in our everyday lives......and besides that, with his PROVEN unique $Profit Index, it would sure help offset Barack's planned reduction in our Social Security benefits.

Simply known as "The Betty" by her closest friends, or "Grammy" by her progeny, DV's latest artistry depicts her exciting response to "ole pops" or "papa tractor's" proposition !    Betty IS my stabilizer, who has always had an exceptionally good instinctive woman's intuition about people,  after all she chose me  Smile  .......but conversely, I am one of those rare twigged persons who understands instinctively about ALL things....her overall perspectives about things are limited somewhat by her inherent kind, caring, just mind your own business  personality.   So to enhance her newly awarded image, I knew it was going to be quite a challenge to convince her that she would enjoy being exposed to all the normal abnormalities out there in the big time "cattle breeding world".....I even told her that after our joint successful purchase of the best bull in America, she might even be dubbed "Thee Queen Elizabeth Bull Buyer of the Day" ..... that she could finally  be a somebody,  beloved by all marketeers shouting long live the Queen.

Well, after 56 years there's not too much left to get her excited about  anymore.....she prefers shopping for bargains rather than wasting money on bulls.     Disappointed, all we did was break out that free 10 yr old unopened gifted bottle of Kentucky bourbon.... still unopened, she argued with the politics on TV eating a roman nougat from her self-gifted box of assorted chocolates.....and I went down into my smoking allowed room eating sour grapes and watched all the live show action on free self-gifted E-cigarette Kit plus 9.99 S&H hadn't arrived yet.....I need to prepare myself so I can still "smoke" when it's my turn to be in the nursing home.

I saw where the reknown  Fescue Whiskers,  who always enjoys stirring the pot,  countered that the "LCC best bull in America" was just another  bull.    Jack said that the Leachman proven unique profit index of $11,429 on this bull is.....Ah,  promotion, commotion, repulsion.    Of course that stirred our academic Data Fiend to ask "what data would you collect to prove he is the best in the world?"    Fescue sitting at the desk of mission control replied "just the 'good data' that would make him best in the world at something...patterned after the way the studs use EPDS.. " .    And with all the recent focus on efficiency, D Biggs interjected with "the cow that can get through the winter on snowballs and rabbit turds is probably a futile attempt at evolution.... cattle have an evolutionary handicap that is unlikely to be made up".     More sour grapes.

Being the twigged man that I am, my Queen Elizabeth for Every Day thinks she is very efficient driving 50 miles just to cash in a $2.00 savings coupon on a lb. of  $8.00 coffee.   I didn't marry her for her frugality, but for her personal integrity, gentleness and virtuous purity, thee essential measures of motherhood.....well, maybe sexual appeal played a teeny weiny role  Smile .    It should be no surprise that I would choose the applicable functional motherhood qualities in a beef cow.....especially after my youthful exposure to those a little on the trashy side.  

It is plain to see that the ordinary lady DV illustrated sitting on the park bench is the marryin' kind, one with tolerance while I'm all into myself as I sit there calmly explaining the historic facts of mating the best to the best with comparative data......that I understand the reasons for the common registered society's hypocrisy.  But like DF, I'd rather ask questions than answer them.   Why do we have this hypocritical apathetic attitude towards refining breed purity; why are we always looking for the next outcross; why do our cattle have an evolutionary handicap ?


As the three blind A's feelin' all the parts of an average modern Angus COW not one of them has seen!
The disputants rail on 'n on in utter ignorance of what each other mean
Each in his own opinion disputed loud and long
Each was partly in the right but all were in the wrong !
"Bootheel, always all never right" is all that's ever seen

Experienced and weary from putting out wildfires ignited by the stormy winds of change, the Fire Chief of the Two Dot Bridge is now focused more on prevention.   The Chief has developed his uncanny clairvoyant capability to see the reality of the causes.   To help develop our own clairvoyance, via email I received his juxtapositional illustration of the AVERAGE MODERN REGISTERED ANGUS COW.    She is a symbolic representation  who consists of  various combinations of her extreme ancestoral genes who randomly lurk in the dark often reappearing in the light all too often.   Perhaps the Chief's artistic model could appropriately be entitled the creation of "super monstigerels (latin name for monster girls)"..... a transformer artfully designed to serve all people for all things (in "utter ignorance" a breed to serve every need, "always never right") .

From my first quick observation, I noticed the best bull in America must've inherited his topline from DV's clairvoyant perception of  the genetic content of modern registered Angus cows.....yes DF,  proven by the known ancestoral heritage.     And yes, a twigged man also knows all about this heritage proof in 1998 I was awarded an official certificate designating me as a member of the elite Angus Heritage Foundation for major contributions to the improvement and advancement of the Angus breed.    These major contributions were my creation of "super trait leaders" back in the 70's assembled from "trait leaders" who damned near ruined the basic functionality of my cow herd as well as others.  

To wit, I commissioned Dennis to illustrate the good, bad and ugly from some of my award winning creations ("not one of them has seen") when I crossed a twice Denver Champion on daughters from the top bulls out of one of the highest  performance, data filled, acclaimed  herds in America.    Exploiting heterosis "is always in the right", these crossed patriotic daughters were dynamite..... with short fuses who exploded at calving time walking around the pasture bellowing like bulls wondering what they were supposed to do with that new little animal trying to suckle and couldn't.....I just wasn't willin' to sacrifice my life to help wasn't my fault they starved, it was just one of those evolutionary handicaps !

To wit, as further proof of the value of academia sponsored data collection, in 1987 I was awarded the WBCIA Seedstock Producer of the Year for my heretofore mentioned super creations.....but I lost out on the competitive national BCIA level coming in second to Henry Gardiner, the beloved academia follower and winner, a growing master at creating super GAR trait leaders in nearly every measured category, derived from applied academia sponsored measured data collection resulting in multi-million dollar sales.    It works...... however.....I only had created bulls that were at the top in only one of three categores, one for growth, one for marbling and one for maternal EBV.     I don't know if marbling is correlated to marble bone disease or not but there was a bunch of it in the Angus breed back in those days "that not one of them had seen".    One of my more memorable comments I heard during the last few years after condemnation of some of these super GAR cattle was that the survivors will be worth twice as much.   More sour grapes.

I must admit I have become ashamed of all my awards, derived from my own genetic ignorance.     Much to my chagrin, DV's clairvoyant illustrations are not just humorous symbolism, the first one is a representative genetic composite of the registered Angus population, the skeletons in the closet are in fact very real.   I couldn't help but associate DV's illuminating artistry with the content of MK's KC topic "Another Approach" for maternalizing composite formation.     While Jack said they'll have a breed of Smuckshit Duns in 150 years, I thought Good Lord, rather than our Ag institutions of higher learning delivering us from "utter ignorance", they lead us down these primrose paths.     The epitome of this was when CSU jointly marketed their bulls with LCC.    More sour grapes.

And so, as an exercise for those still in grade school, take your paint sets and color DV's illustrations.   Color each mainstream trait craze a different color.     For those who are too young to have experienced these fashionable selection cycles, on the first cow you might begin with the hip height craze, intermixed with the mean lean machine craze,  the milk craze moving forward to the performance (capacity) trait leader craze,  then to the fleshing ease, more weight on a smaller frame  craze causing extreme stress on feet, moving on up to the non-sexual distinction of the grass fat craze, steer heads with a brown swiss ear and scur.  

When you finish that task and still believe we can sort thru this continual mixture of a massive assortment of genes and breed pure continuity in a generation or two with the best bulls in America, you need to know that their value would certainly pay off our national debt.     The AAA, initially formed to preserve the purity of the breed,  must be very proud of their progressive handiwork, handing out trophies and awards to those who have assembled the most rare black super you suppose it is the devil that make them do it ?  Smile      Woe be it for all those commercial producers who remain so loyal to all those dedicated fire and ice, registered, psuedo-purebred breeders who ultimately finance all that the AAA does.    I do want to thank those  AAA members who have their head up their ass for reducing the competition among those of us whose objective  is.......

To develop parent stock that can systematically produce beef animals which at the lowest possible cost and expenditure of labor,  give the highest possible and longest lasting returns to the beef producers

LL developing a distaste for sour grapes, searching for seedless sweet ones
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:16 pm

Larry wrote on 12-26-2011

I want to thank you for your special Christmas gift Dylan, there's alot of truth in your  post of Dec 22 "Telling the Hard Truth".    Betty will be glad you edited it, being married 53 years and having a 54 yr old daughter wouldn't sit  very well with her .....she doesn't think it's very funny at all when I tell my grandkids we were married in December and had our first born in March,.............not mentioning the year in between '55 and '57.    Smile  

I was particularly awestruck by the ending of your post  ......

".....With explanation kind
The Truth must dazzle gradually
Or every man be blind—
Lest we blind those whose vision we wish to correct, we must be careful with the truth, for it is, indeed, both bright and dangerous...... "

I laughed thinking that DV's latest revised version should've shown the smokin' raven handin' Mr. Data Fiend a welding helmet.   If we use humor carefully in telling the hard truth, I'm also remindful that when we're sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the whole unrelenting truth, I suspect DV symbolized the raven wearin' a DeKalb cap (rather than a Betaseed one) was in reference to DF's comment that

"Even the swine industry and corn companies share data with their customers so the customers can make the best decision"
Being a professional private company,  the DeKalb corn, pig and chicken breeders have always shared data when marketing their products......yet  DF conveniently omits telling the whole hard truth...... which is,  that these private companies do NOT share any data publicly with their customers or competition about the parent's proprietary pedigree/geneology that create these renewable, definitive,  predictable results.....they in fact only publicly reveal whether a specific variety is an open pollinated, a 2-way single, a 3-way or a 4-way cross.....and then they compare the renewable GENETIC differences of their FIXED genetic result under side by side identical environmental conditions.

So, this is a far, far cry from an industry filled with wide spread half-truths based on data from incomplete measures,  compiled and compared with some psuedo-average among "unfixed" individual's, who are scattered everywhere from many different environmental/management  schemes.  The existing traditional systems readily accept this mayhem and that is the primary reason I left it.   The silence from the thousands who want to follow my path is deafening, there aren't many Bob Howard's in this world, but they are increasing in number   Very Happy

There is lots of space left in this barren frontier land outside the registered mainstream.    However, when the blind in one eye and cannot see much out of the other in a helter skelter business invade my territory,  I can become defensive and a little more than offended like when DF says...

".....This is really the same as MK and LL wondering where we would be today if the industry had adapted Tru-line in the early 1980s when LL wrote about it. If the data had been collected, when AAA releases their Heifer Preg and STAY EPDs, LL and MK might be in the drivers seat. Instead there is the complaint about time.  Smile  It seems LL and MK aren't getting out of the business, so really the time issue is a non-issue. It is not like they are getting out before the data might be useful to selection of animals that excel in maternal traits and have the data to back it up.... but I wonder what useful data will be collected and shared with customers to prove the animals are "good"  Smile  

I suppose I could respond by saying I wonder what is the genuine usefulness of the revered temporary data being collected today?    But then I would become just another one of those shallow disputants who rail on and on in utter ignorance of what each other mean.   While I may be one of the first to apply a TruLine cattle breeding cconcept,  I was far from the first to write about it.    Systems concepts have been cussed and discussed for decades both inside and outside the scientific world.    In 1986 Rick Bourdon wrote several papers demonstrating how increases in profitability have not paralleled increases in production.  From my library sized piles of papers and domestic and foreign research data,  they can all be summarized into a few short words......THE DIFFICULTY IS IN THE APPLICATION....not by genetic principles, but by the short sighted, self-greed/preservation of human nature.     So the only question is how do we improve the system to simplify the application?

I certainly have no ambitions to be in any drivers seat,  my AAA driver's license expired in 2003 which was only needed to drive on public thoroughfares.    I did forego my job as a garbage collector ...of collecting the litter from traditional academia sponsored public data systems which only prolong the agony.   I'm not on any ego trip here, the sum of the whole truth is I just didn't want to be held back, bound and chained to the traditional mainstream.    And just in case anyone might be wondering, I am continuing to collect and apply USEFUL data from my summary of 48 years of accumulated data ..... from which it is my sole responsibility to tell any customers nothing but the whole truth as I know it, so help me God .... that is the only proof I can offer from which they can make their best decision to buy or not to buy.... that is the only question.  Smile

Now I don't want to blind those whose vision I wish to correct, so following the axiom "the truth must dazzle gradually", I'm telling the hard truth of my early history in the mid 60's  as real as I can ......

My collection of data began way back when I met ole Karney Redman
Carryin his measuring tapes to balance every trait
With bell curves 'n numbers 'n charts he could correlate
And substantiate from a median of four and to a top of eight

How gains in one trait would increase the overall size
Twas all clearly explained 'n proven before me very eyes
Why genetic balance must be kept  which was to my ignorant surprise
So with the numbers from the wise I set off 'ta gain that bigger  prize

There wasn't yet a ten way back then
I chose an eight to gain more weight
An eight cow needed to be twelve inches longer than a four
Three inches wider and six inches taller from the floor

This would give 'em 1.75 more pounds of average daily gain
Increase YW by 630# 'n a mature weight of 1700 pounds to maintain
But feed conversion would more than double
Promising more beef under the hide without any trouble

Birth weight 'n milk were left blank and oh so many more
Ole Karney died afore he could finish up all his measurin's score
Now with ratios to EPD 'n mixed up pedigree from  ice to treetops afire
We can choose from everything 'n anything whatever our hearts desire

Now isn't that a variety pak to set before a king
A porridge that includes near every single measured thing
With purple bells and cockle shells no ducks in a row
A  cow's the only one ta listen to now says the ole wise crow

The crow has heard the lament of the artificially-inseminated cow
Never been loved but ruthlessly shoved with frozen straws ta' be better by now
There are some things a cow just should not properly say
But the crow says she'd  much prefer the old-fashioned way

Twas only one progeny ever since creation
Decreed pure by an immaculate conception
There'll be no expectin' rare miracles from TruLine
It's all just set forth in the known laws of the Divine

LL in the vicinity of moving my camp forward from days long gone by .....attributing the inspiration for this poetic version of the past to Karney Redman who drove around the countryside in his ole beat up VW Beatle peddlin' semen derived from his song....when all were  partly in the right, now just resolved to enlighten one or all what's dangerously in the wrong....what's your New Year's Resolution???  Very Happy  
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:02 am

Larry wrote on 12-27-2011

DF quote
I am all for having maternal lines to make the females and terminal lines to make terminal calves. Tell me about your maternal line.

Are you a customer, spy or a rustler.... private company's only pass out free caps with their logo to customers Smile

In any event, if you're really actually interested in broadening the views of what you teach, by reading pages one through seventy of "Reflections by LL" you will find the base of my maternal line. The type is lying somewhere in between cows A, B and C to create the X-Strain for fertility, first and foremost for any entity (shown below) . Please allow me to correct your terminology DF,
don'tcha remember terminal lines just can't be,
so we changed the name to PATERNAL lines publicly for all to see,
each to be bred for their own specific functionality.
It's quite a long journey traveling from C to X, and as you can plainly see, selection for the X-cow required X-ray vision, however, with progressive technology today we could use MRI's to be our eyes Smile

But you said, "......there is the complaint about time. It seems LL and MK aren't getting out of the business, so really the time issue is a non-issue....". Oh, really!!! Don'tcha remember my distribution tables, the Wye weaning charts, or can you even imagine the time that is required reducing rather than expanding the zigs and zags to form a straighter more pure " line"....I do have a timepiece that measures time by years that just keeps on ticking away. Lacking DV's artistic talent but with the same mysterious intent, I did prepare a free and crude symbolic chart for your interpretation to describe the trends of my maternal line.. Since you think time is a non-issue, I didn't bother taking the time to put in all the zig and zag dots showing the distributions surrounding the trends, garbage collectors don't care much about those trivial details anyway. Smile

Tommy D, who gets it, added these colorful words

Reaction, Retraction, Reflection
Retardation, Reincarnation, Revelation.
Resolution, Revolution, Reconciliation

It's said that time heals all I put alot of time and thought into my posts and I've talked about "time savers" before..... anxious skimmers might've missed that part. For those with short memories, Aricept is a new experimental drug to help memory loss but its very expensive. My wife recommended it to me but it's not covered by Medicare....we can't change the past anyway. If time is our most precious commodity, I figured time savers could be extremely valuable, so I hope every one has time to stop and think about saving time.....wouldn't it be nice if we could recapture time.

But on the other hand, if selective hearing is the problem, I can't tell whether the raven's friendly fiend in DV's revised mysterious edition is wearing ear plugs, hearing aids or vent pipes for overtaxed brains.... I'd guess its the latter. I can't afford to provide free hearing aids, just caps. Betty claims I never hear her so she got me one for free plus a $9,999.99 shipping and handling fee, she's always askin' me if I have it turned on....the truth is the constant beat of the same drum drives me crazy. When I have enquiring visitation, since I do all the talking, it's a handy gadget to loan them to make sure they hear me.....I only use it when I'm in the vicinity of Fescue Whiskers since he does mosta the talkin" Smile

So DF, I'm trying to dazzle the truth more gradually so you can safely take off the welding helmet DV recently gave you....there is not much more to tell you about my maternal line that isn't proprietary, more and more of them are breeding like they have seen a sample of their true genetic level at MK's, what, and they are what they are cautiously represented to be

LL in the vicinity of breedin' cattle with turtle shells to protect them from vultures Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:10 am

Larry wrote on 12-31-2011

Dylan, for years I failed in my efforts to effectively communicate the cold hard truth the proper Aritha van Hirk/Emily Dickinson way, but then I discovered the DV/MK way. The reason I like the straightforward DV/MK way so damn much better is that we have that inborn quality to laugh at our own ignorance.....that big devilish grin on their face always does wonders for me. So if it works for me, I am accumulating data for DF measuring the grins of DV, MK, Tom D, Jack, Bootheel and others as they tell the cold, no holes barred hard far DV's artistry gives him a slight edge as the winner, of course, he couldn't be the cream of the crop without the milk provided by the others Smile

In one of his more serious moods, I've moved DV's "PIC ..." response to Ben over here to reflections because it involves a philosphy highly related to time and unmeasured public data that is left unseen in the numbers, not talked about much, but seen and too often neglected by all of us who have been in the real cattle business for is an unmeasured category I've entitled "The Economic Impact of Inconvenient Traits"


Ben Loyning wrote:
Dennis, Just out of curiosity I was wondering how much you attribute your herd health to genetics, and how much to management/environment? I know I've read that you have kept extensive health records on your cattle and was curious on how they trend in different genetic lines? I know you run an "outdoor" outfit, what effect does that have on health? Here I think being an "outdoor" outfit is key. I also attribute alot of health sorting to our altitude. I think it pretty well cleans up any animals with respritory or PAP issues. I think we lost 3 calves to "altitude sickness", and doctored maybe 5 or 6 for other things this year. It comes up to a hair more than a percent for health problems. If the calves we've shipped are as healthy as the ones here at home then I would think that would mean a bunch to the buyer. They will perform enough and they shouldn't have to mess with them. Sorry to get off topic fellas.

Ben Loyning, In the vicinity of Bovine health.

Quote :
There's no way to put a percent figure to it at this point in time. But a substantial amount of my herd health must be attributed to genetics for the simple reason that I researched an extensive amount of cattle lines before arriving at the conclusion that Shoshone Angus cattle were superior on the issue of staying healthy. If you were to research the history of the Horse Butte cattle herd, you would see that it at one time or another in its early development, utilized every significant genetic line available in the Angus breed. Years & years ago Wayne Stevenson spent the day with me looking at cattle and pedigrees and commented at the end of the day that if you wanted to see an example of every registered Angus breeder in the state of Montana you only needed to go to Horse Butte Ranch because everyone was represented. The first wrenching crank in my neck occurred when I purchased a load of straight Shoshone bulls from Leonhardt to use on our commercial cattle program. The resulting offspring were tough, good doing cattle. In those days we kept track of calves that got sick and who their sires were because we did a lot of AI. The material we assembled was significant and revealing and we've kept it fairly private because it's our own personal data. Over time now the Shoshone cattle and Shoshone genetic influence has become a dominant factor in our genetic base and while the changes in herd health attributed to management changes are significant, they only dovetail with the genetic potency.

20 years ago a well known order buyer told me about 3 prominent commercial herds of cattle that he would not purchase yearling feeder cattle from. For the simple reason that the death loss was so big in the feedlot they couldn't afford to take a chance on the cattle any more. Over the years I have tried to keep my ears to the track on this issue. While there are many factors that have entered in like BVD, mycoplasma and God knows what else, the kind of stuff I'm talking about is mostly pneumonia, footrot, pinkeye, scours. You hear all the time about herds that must be doctored constantly. I know a feedlot guy who won't feed a certain ranches cattle because he's fed up with doctoring them. I notice the Lonhorn cross cattle are tougher than hell when it comes to these issues. Couple that with what I know about Shoshone cattle and I'd say my F1 cows could stand up to anyone's anywhere for toughness, disease resistence, rangeability. In the early days Longhorn cattle were bred for survivability. My question to Leonhardt is "How did you get these cattle to have this superior resistance?" Or I could ask the same of Gavin Falloon. How did you correct Angus feet so well? I don't want an answer to either one of these questions because I believe successful breeding of cattle is an art form and the mysteries need to remain mysteries. Not that these guys have a secret book or anything like that.

We don't have an altitude problem here Ben. I wish Dave Noble would share what he knows about Shoshone cattle and altitude. Hey Dave, get to typing. Quit petting wolves and get to typing.

The most profound thing I can share with anyone interested in breeding cattle is this, as it applies to the subject being disccussed. Please quote me on the following statement because this is my baby.
Registered breeders are failures because they will not let certain cattle lines with high expectations fail. It becomes registered breeder vs mother nature. A mating is conceived by the breeder in the privacy of his warm home complete with coffee and computer. Everything about it fits together like a fine glove. The mating is made. The calf is born. The calf is awesome. He exceeds all expectations. The calf gets sick. The calf gets doctored. The calf gets sick. The calf gets doctored. The calf gets weaned. The calf gets doctored. The calf goes to the feedlot/bull test. The calf gets doctored. The calf manages to win the feed test and goes to the bull stud. The bull gets doctored. The now famous bull gets collected and collected. His calves are everywhere in programs from Australia, New Zealand, Scotland, Canada & America. A great percentage of his calves get doctored. These calves are mated with simliar genetics achieved in a similar manner. Soon we no longer have cattle mated to cattle, but pickles mated to pickles.
Dennis Voss in the vicinity ."

Of particular interest to me was when DV said ".....while there are many factors that have entered in like BVD, mycoplasma and God K N O W S W H A T E L S E, the kind of stuff I'm talking about is mostly pneumonia, footrot, pinkeye, scours. You hear all the time about herds that must be doctored constantly.....My question to Leonhardt is "How did you get these cattle to have this superior resistance?" Or I could ask the same of Gavin Falloon. How did you correct Angus feet so well? I don't want an answer to either one of these questions because I believe successful breeding of cattle is an art form and the mysteries need to remain mysteries. Not that these guys have a secret book or anything like that.....Soon we no longer have cattle mated to cattle, but pickles mated to pickles."
Then DV subsequently posted " I'll let Larry address the Shoshone cattle as it pertains to their correctly functioning endocrine system. I feel like I've gone out on a limb with some of the statements I've made. Who knows, maybe I'm setting myself up for a big wreck. I hope not. If I had a couple of lifetimes behind me I'd feel more confident."

Bakewell was thought to have some mysterious secrets to his breeding success, followed by Watson. The whole mysterious secretive truth of the matter is that any inferred successful breeding of my cattle has to be attributed to being extremely lucky, sloppy (piss poor) management and persistant determination. Improving the endocrine system is relatively easy compared to the rest of it. . I've often fretted over the economic loss of losing an animal that maybe I could have saved by better management when I should've enoyed the genetic gain at the non-perpetuation of whatever their weakness was. I think I'm beginning to be influenced by the PCC/LCC way, dependence on hybrid vigor......Now if I could only be influenced by their marketing of the survivors, just think how much better my cattle could be......

I nearly died laughing when Darrell implied I oughta have all my genetic problems solved and God knows what else after linebreeding cattle in a closed herd for 30 years; and when Gavin told me it has cost him alot to doing what he's doing in a closed herd, that after 40 years he has just begun; and when Ken Clark told me one man can't get much done in his lifetime; and when Lingle said the odds of producing an identical full brother are a paltry 205,891,132,694,649 trillion to one......yet, the common persistant determination of these men was/is to raise seedstock for the CHEAPER production of BETTER meat. I would have included the King Tutts of Coloredonuts in this group but it is "EASY TO FIND THIS OBJECTIVE LEFT BEHIND WHEN AN AUCTION SALE BECOMES A ONE-RING CIRCUS---A PARADE OF INFLATED VALUES AND INFLATED EGOS". So I laugh thinking of my economic stupidity when I left behind the registered parade of "first editions" with their over inflated values but how I'm compensated much more in enjoyment value by MK's participation in his THREE-RING CIRCUS with its deflated values, hoping when we laugh the world laughs with us and not at us Smile

So DV, if you're setting yourself up for a big wreck, at least it won't be fatal. Just FYI, our vet has finished preg checking our 693 females from five different environmental units. As usual, there was no significant difference in the percent of opens in any unit between the 50 yearlings, the 140 first calf coming three year olds and the more mature cows ranging in age from 3's to 18. The 5 to 6% opens have no significant difference in the commonality of their ancestry to those of their pregnant herd mates. Under my questionable management, I seriously doubt that I could significantly improve that percentage by selection until dooms day whether my cattle were close bred, outcrossed or crossbred, however, as I learned over time, contrary selection priorities could seriously reduce the percentage of pregnant cows in a heartbeat.....dangerously jeopardizing my reputation as well as my economic livelihood Smile

Hope you're copyrighting your artistry for our retirement benefits DV, its deflated value today will surely be greatly inflated in years to come. On a sad note, great creative artist's aren't normally widely acclaimed in their own lifetime, just wanted you to know a few of us recognize it today.

LL enjoyin' life in the vicinity of circus tents and clowns
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:35 am

TomD wrote on 1-5-2012

There was an Old Granny that started a breed,
Hugh felt the need to start up a breed,
Did he succeed?
They bred her to Jock to keep her polled,
But then all the daughters didn't get so old,
But at least they were polled.
They bred her to Laddie to keep her black,
Polled and Black! Imagine that.
No going back.
They brought the breed across the ocean,
With a good deal of polled and black promotion,
Oh what commotion.
They bred her to Sunbeam to make her squat,
Like it or not, they made her squat.
Was it all for naught?
They bred her to Colossal to make her bigger,
Bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger,
That's what they figured.
They bred her to a Holstein to make her milk flow,
And see just how far they could get her to go
Well now we know.
They bred her to Rito to make her gain,
And make bigger cows for folks to maintain,
Oh what a pain.
They bred her to Big Sky to make her tall,
To compete with the Chi's and Simmentals,
She beat 'em all.
They bred her to Precision to make her scan,
And so on and so on, there is no plan,
It's all a scam.
They bred her to Precision to fix the Big Sky,
They bred her to Big Sky to fix the Rito,
They bred her to Rito to fix the Holstein,
They bred her to Holstein to fix the Colossal,
They bred her to Colossal to fix the Sunbeam,
They bred her to Sunbeam to fix the Laddie,
They bred her to Laddie to fix the Jock,
They bred her to Jock to fix the Granny of Old,
And they're still black and polled!

TD, for LL.
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:39 am

Larry wrote on 1-12-2012...

J's question

" '...FAA 00 6 with the highest inbreeding coefficient of 42% fortunately died at birth ....before he could pass on his harmful homogenous genes to the next generation' much are we willing to pay to get more purity, prepotency...?"


"....despite FAA OO6 dying the "harmful genes" are still prevalent in the population. Have you read any of the stuff to synthesize why we must have both beneficial and harmful genes ?? "


"I'll tell you why we have harmful genes if you can tell me why the system has the beneficial and confounding phenomena of heterosis built into it? Why natural law dictates that along with the best there will always be some of the worst. And why distributions are preserved with such tenacity.?"


"OK J, you give it a go first, tell me why we have harmful genes"


"All right...well, I'm pretty sure I could answer better, if I had the answer to my three somewhat related questions, but I'll try. I better soak on it awhile though."


"If you soak on it too long, your skin is apt to get wrinkled."

J's been soaking for quite awhile, so I'll give it a go first with a condensed version of natural law made by some of those with wrinkled skin for interesting things to think about while feeding your cows:

".....who or what or how did natural law all come we operate on the only system that our species could survive.....a system which carries within itself the seeds of its own extinction.....what forces hide behind the curiosity of attraction..... whereIn most animals, the territorial male fights for the right to the females.....and in so doing he demonstrates physical strength and superiority....all somewhat related, all loaded with recessives, still the dominate genes fight killing each other.....wherein the built in enemy is not only the dominate, but at last the smallest recessive population control mechanisms....."

What happens to a species who is allowed to over populate itself out of room......given an ideal environment with plenty of room and plenty to eat, they get fat and lazy, eventually populating themselves out of room, finally killing and eating each this why obesity reciprocates subfertility or vice versa; or why Bootheel experienced cannibalistic chickens; or why large breasted turkeys can only mate via AI, or why some sows eat their newborn litters; or why some cows kill their own new born calves; or why some bulls are acclaimed continuous show winners despite their sub/infertility..... yes, by natural law harmful genes will prevail out of necessity in a species population to assure survival.... all man can do is learn how to manage them for his benefit.

Whilst traveling down memory lane on the road less traveled learning how to harness hybrid power and when to terminate it, it is not a question of how much are we willing to pay to get more purity, is a question of how much it is costing us not to, from our ignorant defiance of natural law.

LL loaded with harmful genes to assure mankind`s survival cheers cheers cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Mon May 25, 2015 7:34 am

Larry wrote on Sat 14 Jan 2012

If a man's cattle are a reflection of the man ....then is this the progressive evolutionary effects of the scientific Beef Improvement Federation's performance movement by the numbers

LL .....extremely grateful for the genetic checks and balances of natural law Shocked Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Mon May 25, 2015 7:37 am

Larry wrote on Tue 17 Jan 2012

"......We are stacking more weight into the existing frame.  Regards, Gavin"

Throughout the last couple centuries, the British beef breeds have been trying to stack more LIVE WEIGHT on many different size frames, each with more MEAT WEIGHT in the shorter period of time, with the leanest to the fattest, different yielding carcass'.     Many years ago DN,  a prominent and successful performance breeder in IA, told me he was breeding for NUTS, GUTS 'N decades later it has been another  educational study to follow that journey back from the future.    Setting the registered business aside for now, believe it or not, IMHO, in the real beef business, the single common cause of our perpetual movement ultimately is in our disatifaction with the working COW.     Here's the latest modern version:

Now hear this all ye bobbleheads banished to KC
The new 2012 ABS paternal circus is in town for ya'll ta see
The newest Coney Island eatin' contests have again begun
Come join the fun 'n bring along yer ole A.I. gun

Learn how ta  stack more weight into the same sized frame
All ya gotta do is buy semen ta win this ole paternal game
Looks like Gavin will soon  be a gettun
Lot'sa new 'n mighty paunchy competishun

Sign up for a free 2012 calendar from the Angus Hall of Fame
It's featurin' the '64 champion from the ole International game
L'le Jimmer's boss must be a jumpin' up n' down with joy
Now that big Jimmer's boss is a promotin' PCC's favorite ploy

We can use DF's measurin' tapes to prove once and for all
Which new piggy cow has the biggest paunch before they fall
And from the ruminating ABS "pasture to plate"
The winners will be judged by how much they actually ate

If this ABS paternal cover cow for now is among the very best
Twil be a shortage of hard workin' cows they've now laid to rest
So breedin' for those needin' workin' cows is sure ta beome a plus
Thanx ABS fer solve'n the other half'a the puzzle fer the rest of  us

And if anyone's stuck in a rut in bottleland missin' out on all this huntin' fun
There's an ABS rep near ta teach ya how ta use the new AI dart gun
Mirror, mirror, on the wall
Who's the craziest bottlehead of us all the dangerous vicinity of being declared the winner by consenselessnus

Hilly replied...

Thanks for sharing this dialog and thought process, it always interesting to me how many different ways one can communicate the same basic fundamentals principals and still glean from it.

As I read this short exchange of thought, it put a smile on my bobbling head as I held varying definitions of progress up to it Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Mon May 25, 2015 7:47 am

TomD wrote on Jan 20, 2012...

Larry Leonhardt wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
I`m inclined to believe there may be more stability to offer , though not in the context we usually speak, in the stouter kind...

Laughing, I love the grins on their faces so proud of their simple ingenuity.... it does illustrate the TEMPORARY utility of extremes....BUT Very Happy

BUT...eventually there are gonna be some bumps in the road, or they're gonna have to turn a corner. Then he might wish his female companion had a little more FINESSE. Perhaps more along the lines of this phenotype:

The nice thing about this type is that they are much more versatile, and if you still feel that you need the extra stability, you can fit TWO of them on the fender. Very Happy

And if you just can't stand to give up the extra payweight, additional mass can be added back into the system via the paternal side.

Frumpy girls are like mopeds, they're both fun to ride until your friends see you.

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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Wed Jun 03, 2015 7:05 pm

MK asked on 1-25-2012
a poster told me the other night he was a Tru-Line breeder...I get a call now and then that the greeting is "how`s the Angus business"? and I would prefer to say "I`m not in the Angus business; I`m a Tru-Line Breeder...I`m willing to give up some of my hard earned independence to be able to say like the cows in the DV drawing for my sale, what are the hoops, real or imagined official, that I must jump through in order to bear that name...Tru-Line breeder?
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Wed Jun 03, 2015 7:09 pm

Larry replied 1-28-2012

Mike's posted dilemma:
a poster told me the other night he was a Tru-Line breeder...I get a call now and then that the greeting is "how`s the Angus business"? and I would prefer to say "I`m not in the Angus business; I`m a Tru-Line Breeder...I`m willing to give up some of my hard earned independence to be able to say like the cows in the DV drawing for my sale, what are the hoops, real or imagined official, that I must jump through in order to bear that name...Tru-Line breeder

Once or twice a year Mike, I too get a call or an email from a TruLyin breeder. The traditional hoops in DV's drawing for your sale are in fact real;, the hoops that you must jump thru to be a TruLine breeder are figments of an imagerynation. Considering that TruLyin breeders are impatient, in a hurry, I generally cater to them in a likewise manner first testing their patience. For example, before I had the time to answer Mr. Hoffmeister IV's first request, I got a second one describin' his two distinctive donor cows, to wit::

Jan. 26, 2012
Dear Mr. Leonhardt,

I am enclosing a picture of my donor cow (not the best picture as the day we snapped this she was standing on one of her tits). She weighs 2200 lbs but this is because we have been flushing her since she was a heifer. We have flushed her to every mainstream bull out there plus a few Simmental bulls for half-bloods. As you are well aware, she has over 30 sons represented in all of the major AI companies. I'm writing you to beg you of advice and help. I called a Mr. Voss of Horse Butte Ranch at Two Dot, MT for the same possible help I need but he reamed me out and hung up on me and was very discourteous. What I want is very simple. I would like to purchase semen on one of your great maternal bulls that I hear so much about. I have read about many of them on Keeney's Corner. Before my donor cow expires, I would like some daughters from one of your sires that could help some of her problems. Could you also sell me registration certificates on this bull? Cost is not a problem as any sons I get from this flush will be outcross for the industry and I can sell them for a pretty penny. My offer is this. I will give you $100,000 for 10 units of Horse Butte 1126 of 3128. Any resulting calves needing to be registered, I would pay $10,000 per certificate. Please consider this proposal at your convenience. I know you are a busy man this time of the year repairing feed trucks and sacking up beetseed for spring planting.

Sincerely yours,
R. Iver Hoffmeister IV

Dear Mr. Leonhardt

This is a picture of my other Angus matron donor cow. She is 6 yrs old and produces on average 12 high quality embryos per flush. She has her problems but she produces incredible marbling and extended growth. Her milk EPD is +45. Please get back to me at your convenience as I would like to flush her to some of your maternal bloodlines.


Dear Mr R. Iver Hoffmeister IV,

Please excuse Mr. Voss for being discourteous, he suffers from mult-personality schizophrenia. He often thinks he is Geronimo weanin' war paint whilst guarding the Two Dot bridge with his quill of harmless Cupid arrows protecting his reservation against imposters who masquerade as TruLine Breeders. I would be glad to accept your kind offer to buy some semen from 1126 since I sure could use the money in view of the Mean Spirit of Fire burning up my $100,000 feed truck. However, the AAA will no longer allow me to buy AI breeding certificates since my membership elapsed as I suffer from hallucinatory dementia. I would be delighted to sell you 10 daughters of "1126" ready to flush for $110,000 to save you some flushin' time, but alas, I can't transfer their registration papers either.

As alternative options, with your generous willingness to spend big money, you might consider attending the dependable genetic sale in Iowa setting your eye on buying and flushing the Lot 1 to enhance all of your utter problems that you have successfully built into your donor cows. With the soaring prices of black land in IA, I'm told that these dependable black cattle will match and maximize the per unit production by simply reversing the IA to AI.

As a second option, however with some reluctance, I suggest you contact the Keeney Angus sale who has cows for sale that are lighter and flightier especially designed to enhance your No. 1 donor cow.....they are those few, the rare, the unique evolutionary survivors of those who learned how to jump over the moon eluding the pain of stepping on their tits. But.....butts are always a consideration, I must forewarn you that they tend to sell too cheap to fit your preferred budgetary range of monetary values......shamefully lowering the values of the footnotes in your sale catalogs.

Nevertheless, when excessive extreme rarity is the primary consideration, the only alternative option I have left to offer you is attending Mack JacNamees one and only rare free psychiatric clinic to help you discover the roots behind your current phobia of common goodness. Mack, the head chief of psychiatry, will gently and patiently explain how the pursuit of rarity begins with the aspirations of fightin' ta be the leader of those stampeding down the mainstream highway. Mr. Keeney was one of clinic's first graduates to discover that the most rare would be leadin' the breedin' of TruLine cows that could jump over the moon.

With simple portrayals, Mack will show you why your No. 1 2200# Simme x white cow with black pigment got so big she could no longer jump thru all the registered hoops to keep up with the black pack and why her tits got longer faster than her legs got taller. Bootheel wants cows who's parts wear out at the same time and you seem to indicate that you want the parts to grow at the same rate. I'm sure Mack and Mike sympathize with you experiencing how difficult it is to teach cows how to jump and why you are so desperately willing to be so generous with your money. Personally, I can't tell from her trainin' picture....whether your No. 1 donor cow is exercisin' to strengthen her saddle back, trimin' down her tummy or if she got hung up tryin' to learn how to jump over the barricade seeking a diversionary shortcut to stay ahead of the rest of the stampeding black pack.

Mack will explain how the survivors of the stampede going over the cliff, dreamed of cows who could fly over natural barriers only if....

But if pigs can't fly, then you can imagine what an arduous task it was for Mike (with many failures) to be the first to proclaim he was conceptually successful breeding cows who could jump over the moon.....yes, most cows just couldn't make it.

Be assured that Mack's able assistants, Tom n' Joe are always available to help you presenting free seminars at the Corner Clinic explainin' how they and Hilly watched all their neighbors going broke selecting the biggest, jumpinest fools the hard knock school whenst AI became the general rules.....while the ole cows fiddled and laughed as the signature dish ran away with the spoon while they contemplated soaring over the magnetism of the moon

Hopin to catch a ride aboard Tom n' Joes Rocketship to colonize and finally brighten up the dark side of the moon with a great big smiley too

To reverse the flows of the tide by stallin' the stampede on the other side as the two collide. So Mr. Hoffmeister, these are the only 3 options I can offer you at this, the mimic; two, the moon and three the free clinic......or, you can begin anew by asking Kendra if you can join her home schooling kindergarden class.

One last thing I might mention Iver, if it would help you at all to decide, allow me to introduce Tom's recent discovery of the common maternal symmetry of the New Rising Tide found being colonized over here on the previously Dark Side...... without the need for scientific measures......whereas you enjoy chasin' production, we're content to be chasin' reproduction where all the parts grow and wear out at the same time Very Happy

LL in the vicinity of moonshiners
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Wed Jun 03, 2015 7:12 pm

Kendra wrote on 2-6-2012

Larry—I haven’t requested DV’s permission to use his pictures for my Kindergarten homeschoolers yet, so I’m thinking of starting with the following as a History Lesson. Can’t decide if it is “History” or better suited for studying “Current Events.” Question

Between 1896 and 1920, a small group of industrialists and financiers, together with their private charitable foundations, subsidized university chairs, university researchers, and school administrators, spent more money on forced schooling than the government itself did. Carnegie and Rockefeller, as late as 1915, were spending more themselves. In this laissez-faire fashion a system of modern schooling was constructed without public participation. The motives for this are undoubtedly mixed, but it is useful to hear a few excerpts from the first mission statement of Rockefeller’s General Education Board as they occur in a document called Occasional Letter Number One (1906):

"In our dreams, we have limitless resources and the people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands. The present education conventions fade from their minds, and unhampered by tradition, we work our own good will upon a grateful and responsive rural folk. We shall not try to make these people or any of their children into philosophers or men of learning, or men of science. We have not to raise up from among them authors, editors, poets, or men of letters. We shall not search for embryo great artists, painters, musicians, nor lawyers, doctors, preachers, politicians, statesmen, of whom we have an ample supply.

The task we set before ourselves is very simple, as well as a very beautiful one, to train these people as we find them, to a perfectly ideal life, just where they are. So we will organize our children and teach them to do in a perfect way the things their fathers and mothers are doing in an imperfect way, in the homes, in the shops, on the farm.".

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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Wed Jun 03, 2015 7:15 pm

Larry wrote on 2-8-2012

Kendra, thank you for your post which ended with ".....So we will organize our children and teach them to do in a perfect way the things their fathers and mothers are doing in an imperfect way, in the homes, in the shops, on the farm.".
A depressing example of how the elite leaders of mankind have been manipulating the populace throughout recorded history. History records that over time the unrest of the populace ultimately revolts and the process begins anew over and over again, each creating a new set of ever increasing governing rules and regulatory laws designed, promoted and enforced to control the populace.

Civil disobedience often grows out of inequity or unjustifiable infringements. Pertinent to our own little cattle breeding world, MK publicly announced his emancipation renouncing the AAA's manipulative powers with his dissenting public "Declaration of Independence". Going down this independent road less traveled hoping the truth shall set us free, questions have arisen that need to be clarified to avoid any misconceived perceptions in regards to what we'll call the "TruLine Road". The conceptual purpose of "TruLine" was not conceived to create a new society to act as a central oversight agency for like-minded breeders with new man made rules and regulatory laws.....the only applicable law on this lonely road is Natural Law. Certifying any authenticity while establishing genetic truths is the exclusive responsibilty of each independent breeder , chained to his clientele, they will sink or swim together.

Therefore, the sole purpose of "TruLine"is educational, a conceptual and realistic direction towards harnessing hybrid power.....a cohesive effort is required to describe the practical and potential merits of stabilized populations. It is not to continue teaching "the things our fathers and mothers are doing in an imperfect way", but to stimulate independent rational thought based on common sense.

"TruLine" is not to determine what types of cattle to establish, but to change the direction to isolate and stabilize the various types rather than combining chaotic integration with extremes. Genetic chaos creates manipulative connivers who thrive on populace ignorance promoting unlimited hopes and aspirations. Harnessing hybrid power is not a panacea of profound promises, but it offers a better way to provide lasting economic progress for those tired, weary and hungry from following the charades of the mainstream parades.

During the formative years of the "TruLine" concept, encouraged by Mr. K.A. Clark, he forewarned me that any success will be dependent upon the proper education of the commercial beef producers. The profundity of that simple short statement has never been more applicable than today....and that alone is the only mission for my participation on KC, my cattle must sell themselves by their own recognizability.

So thank you for your needed help Kendra ....and for not being one of those teachers who teach us in a perfect way to keep on doing the same ole things we are doing in an imperfect way.

LL in the vicinity of a surplus of elite Chiefs and an extreme shortage of Indians.
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Wed Jun 03, 2015 8:52 pm

Kendra replied on 2-12-2012

Dennis and Ben have given us a sneak peak at the challenges and joys of living among the tenacity and spirit of the western woman. So, I suppose it would be fair to say that Jon might claim to know at least one Mid-Western woman that tends to beat a dead horse to death Shocked …… but doesn’t this all go back to the premise of “SELF” or SELFLESS?” Your statement “the sole purpose of "TruLine" is educational, a conceptual and realistic direction towards harnessing hybrid power.....a cohesive effort is required to describe the practical and potential merits of stabilized populations.”
No mention of the intent of education being for profit, status, or other self promotion. SELF or SELFLESS has clearly shifted our culture’s definition of successful results, from a “qualitative to a quantitative” sense. Our need for immediate results demands that we find, create, or manipulate data to use as proof that we have the very same qualitative results that we weren’t willing to commit to because of the extensive amount TIME required. Thus…. the introduction and dependence upon Marketing.

Marketing has done such a phenomenal job that we now have a culture that views Education as a “thing”, that can be obtained,(void of mistakes or failures) instead of a process (full of mistakes and adjustments). And once obtained, it gives one the credentials that “proves, - quantitatively,” that they hold an elevated position worthy of dispensing knowledge and insight— again it’s quantitatively of course. Through Marketing, our organized system of education, has been credited of giving one “power”, and power surely leads to “best”. By “best” we’ve been marketed into believing that “the best” means having the “most,” with little thought given to what the consequences are of scrambling to obtain it all.” And perhaps more appropriately stated…. with little thought given to the WHO that receives those consequences in the attempts to scramble to obtain it all?

So as a rebuttal to this excerpt from the mission statement of the first board of education- “to train these people as we find them, to a perfectly ideal life, just where they are. So we will organize our children and teach them to do in a perfect way the things their fathers and mothers are doing in an imperfect way,” I’d suggest we revise it to “Self –reliance is the antidote to institutional insanity.”
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:20 am

Larry wrote on 2-17-2012

Under the "Cartoons" topic Dennis Voss wrote:

Dear Cast of Loyal Viewers, ( An edited shorter version of DV's message fitting the pertinent parts together)
By now you realize and accept ........ the truth of reality. I challenge all of you to see this incredible opportunity...... to push yourselves to the core of your being for the betterment of your own brains as well as the future of the countries we live in.....We (KC) are all collectively pushing each other further..... hooked together like a train going somewhere .... Larkota, get off of your ass and jump into the river.... let's go! Life is flying by and the core heartbeat of the entire thing, Leonhardt, stands like a rock for all of us to aspire to.

Dennis with more thought later, maybe I'll put the parts together, maybe I won't.

MK wrote:
larkota wrote:
to quote Larry.

development of parent stock that can regularly produce beef animals which at the lowest possible expenditure of labor and cost give the highest possible and longest lasting returns to the commercial industry.
now I just have to figure out how??

Our life is frittered away by detail... simplify, simplify. Henry David Thoreau

Dennis, one of the things (we) the cast of loyal viewers know is that the basic "core heartbeat" powering this train is controlled "NUCLEAR FISSION". Regarding the objective that Larkota refers to, (we) know we can't keep looking back at the past destructive forces of unleashed nuclear fission lest we turn into pillars of salt....that our time is better spent only looking forward to controlling the power of the nucleus. So Larkota, before jumping into the murky river of no return that may be filled with piranhas, trying to sound more professionally scientific, the first step in nuclear warfare is to reach a greater understanding relative to the activity of molecular biology.

To strategically "figure out how" to work towards this basic objective simplifying the complex, (we) know how genes wage these ongoing, intangible, invisible nucleate battles for predominance. (We) know how to measure the "white victors" while the "black losers" of each battle retreat hiding in the black forest waiting in ready reserve for reinforcements for the next ruthless battle. (We) know how selection reinforces the gene frequencies for our favored victorious teams and in theory the power of the latent losers are reduced one animal at a time.

All seems well, our favored teams are winning.....but alas, ultimately our cup runneth over and we're subjected to the rules of the great equalizer in natural law. (We) have learned how the nucleus of the parts are linked together as we change existing energy from one form to another....but alas, others seem to be in defiance of how natural law will ultimately prevail. Therefore, in any successful assembly line process, certainly the molecular parts must fit together for a satisfactory finished product.

(We) mold the parts for satisfying endings, others combine everything for insatiable never endings. (We) start and end somewhere, when good enough is better than nothing, knowing that any lasting genetic "progress" hinges on economics. (We) know every individual is an isolated populaton of a randomized portion of the ancestry's germ plasm....the result of a nucleate battle limited to that individuals proportionate share of his parents. Obviously, (we) know closed herds are isolated populations of individuals, and that breeds were formed as isolated populations to limit the nucleate cluster by focusing on "fixing" the purity of certain favored characters. (We) know how the simple becomes complex warfare with man's unwillingness to accept the consequences of the linked train of natural law. (We) know how these consequences stimulated DV's above illustration, how nuclear fissioned parts that do not fit together create bombs instead of bonds.

(We) know the difficulty is not in the genetic application abiding by natural law, that the difficulty is in the natural human element. (We) simply see a wrong and try to right it, others go on and on fightin' all about it. Whether (we) choose red, yellow, green or blue, Charolais, Angus, Wagyu or Simme's too, all (we) need ta' do is breed 'em all to breed more true...... in a marketplace based only on true "white" and "black" value.

(We) know the science of breeding seedstock is continually changing, but the artwork of natural law is unchangeable. Geez, from all the things (we) know, It is not a matter of figuring "out how", but "who" will hone the parts in succession beyond each of our own mortal lives. A L L L L A B O A R D the train to somewhere ....... where the destination is the clear calm bay at the end of the murky river who's mud has finally settled to the bottom Smile

LL enjoyin' my electronic peace pipe in the smokin' allowed cabin of the (We) Land Express
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:22 am

TomD wrote on 2-25-2012

The physics of fission and fusion can be confusin', even to old Confucius. I believe he's confusin' the process of fusion with his vision of fission, unless I'm missin' his mission. At the heart of the dark matter is whether we should splatter the energy of our reactions over all of time and space. Or can we harness the hybrid power of the sun, and fuse two lesser elements into one, by first keeping each in it's place?

To create fusion from confusion, (we) have to drop the con.

TD, going back to bed.
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:26 am

Larry wrote on 3-10-2012

Bootheel wrote:

Picture judging is a booger Mike. I am not that picky, but yeah I like the last PICTURE the best. I don't believe either one of them would be too problematic for commercial profit, whether bred to their respective equal, or crossed to FIX. I am still reeling from the udder quality some 3 months later. I thought I had some good uddered cows, but the forudder attachment(yes fore not 4) is unparalleled by any herd or line of Angus cattle I have seen. Is it neccessary to have such udder? Maybe not, but I would like the whole cow to wear out at the same time, rather than cull for feet, or udders, legs, empty bellies, etc.
Bootheel, trying really hard to think about cattle

And In a later post, Bootheel wrote:
......In a whirlwind of tail evaluation this week I have come to the conclusion that I must accept that my cattle, on average, will have shorter tails. I guess I could sell them all and start over with long tails, but I won't. It is still interesting to me though, and I reserve the right to change my mind at any time I see fit.
The hors d'oeuvre on the menu today is ox tail soup and DV's finally brought to our attention the importance of happy tails. Tails have been waggin' the dog in this business ever since I can remember. DV has a special affinity for good feet, that he starts with the feet and works his way up when selecting or judging cattle. I confess that in my own unique situation, I start with a happy tail selection as a first priority and everything, YES ,EVERYTHING else just naturally falls in place.......Twas told long ago to just leave 'em alone and they'll come come waggin' their tails behind them.

Tis time to simplify the complex .... Tis time to explode the myth that single trait selection doesn't work .....Tis time to ignore the 35 EPD measures.....Tis time to abandon the races of multiple trait selection......Tis time to reveal what can happen when we disregard the importance of single trait happy tail selection in favor of multiple trait races by the numbers - i.e.notice the tail on the ANGRY cow below compared to the happy tailed, CONTENTED cow pictured above, its plain to see she's a triple P cow (in pain and a pissed off purebred)


Fortunately, with the assistance from Mother Nature, the outliers DV illustrated above are as rare as the top outliers on the other end. And so when DV illustrated the INTERIOR and happy tail of Shoshone Queen Mother Uno, since he is a feet man and who like all artists tends to dramatize his illustrations, I suspect he used

Mean Spriit's big white cow as a model for the feet and heavy boned legs, which may just be this particular artist's pre-conceived, misguided mis-perception : )

Whereas in reality Uno is much finer boned, however, DV surely must've modeled the EXTERIOR of the rest of Shoshone Queen Mother Uno after her 261,548th descendant's fertility proven extraording, ordinary happy tail, now residing in KY. MS says his cow has a strong tail. For those enquiring minds who want to know the difference between strong tails and happy tails, know that happy tails on cows extend forward along the back connected to pretty, less concerning, humble yet sexy friendly faces, not meant for pulling plows, but bearing a unique finesse quality. I recently asked DV to illustrate an SXC cow (sexy centerpiece) for Tom D, but he's busy drawing pretty fire ants and woody creatures : ))

Or, perhaps DV's EXTERIOR model was Uno's humble 302,230th descendant's happy tail extending forward now residing in Alberta

Or, maybe DV's EXTERIOR model could've even been Uno's 98,260th descendent's extended happy tail, who's immortality resides in Nebraska

Or maybe DV's model was this 190,663rd Uno descendant of happy and humble tails..... or does it even matter which model he used???

Since here is the real image and model of my UNO No. 1 cow

And my continuation of her selected individual immortality portrayed below with happy tails for both your EXTERIOR & INTERIOR view, with the tails of her sire, dam and first born yearling sired by her own sire......the very core of my portion of the universe

Note the sexy beauty of her happy and contented tail....Once upon a time MK had an EXTERIOR & INTERIOR happy tailed duplicate of my very own Uno No. 1 cow, his #902 cow.... but back then, MK was not himself happy. He worried about numbers and IBC's.....and merchandising, completely unaware of the need for continual happy tail selection. So while Bootheel and Mike wile away their time hypothesizing any connection to length of tail and milking ability, obviously, they will conclude happy tail selection will not work any better than numbers derived from averages based on a compositional mix of various types and kinds. And so, I actually don't expect anyone to appreciate my happy tailed cows nearly as much as I a matter of fact, most mainstream registered people would try to improve rather than sustain and maintain these type of cows with their own independent zero EPD standard of excellence via simple selection for happy tails.

For example, this descendant, portrayed when MK took her picture when she was a first calf heifer, now 10 years old is creating her own legacy......her happy tail extends clear up to the tip of her exceptionally contented nose, expressed in her eyes.

And it is my fondest hope that John D. continues to practice happy tail selection with this descendant of Cow #6113

Whilst I, and several others, go on and on and on and on with the current descendants selecting happy tails that extend to the tip of their contented noses

LL reciting a tale of tails from bow to stern, or would that be from stern to bow, let's just hoist the anchor mateys and get underway : )
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:27 am

Larry wrote on 3-17-2012

Tom D wrote:
Hey Larry, see what you missed out on when you quit using everyone else's bulls?

TD, lamenting what might have been.

Sorry TD, you are a little misleading in describing your laments, it is not what might have been that didn't happen, it is more like what will be utilizing the new academic predictor when AAA

EPDs are enhanced by genomic results generated by:

Since some of the posters on KC are at the forefront of scientific research, their findings of the intrauterine effects of estrogen, testosterone, chlorians, anemones, amniotic fluids, gonadotropins, anti-mullarian hormones, genus alignments, nuclei fusions, transformative and binary traits, introgressive matings or whatever are extremely valuable things we all need to know....especially useful in order to aid laymen during computerized selection to improve predictability.

With your new computerized hardware Tom, I want to congratulate you on bein' able to predict what the first cross between a Shoshone cow and SAV Handiwork will look like. Obviously your image is the result of intrauterine battles. For those of us in the golden age of computer illiterates, in our limited lifetime we would sure like to see your predictable computerized images of the subsequent crosses with Bootheels improved bull, or King Tutypes, Nippons and other Bostypes.....of course, expecting them all to be scientifically based on genomic profiles and heritability factors, which of course includes vengeful microstatins and energies secreted from fat.

LL in the vicinity of believin' Tom D is in stiff competition with DV to be the Chief Editor of the Advertising Section of the KC Daily Chronicle, a licensed subsidiary of the TruLine Journal.
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:37 am

on 3-19-2012 PatB asked

Jack McNamee wrote:
Larry, I'm starting to get my little toe wet here with mother-son matings, half sib matings, etc.  As the percentage inbred increased how much of a lessening of fertility, if any did you notice, especially in the females, and what did you do about it as far as keeping/selling opens?  I'll welcome anyones 2 cents on this too.

Thanks, Jack

If the females are not breeding under your management conditions and breeding season timeline why keep them?  I cannot but think if you sell the problem breeders every year the ones left will shift your genetic base to more fertile animals.   How much of the decrease/increase in fertility or other traits are caused by the genetics of the founding animals of your line breeding project?

and Hilly answered

I gather he is not talking about production stock but seed stock bred for use in a systematic cross. To me it's different, and the only answer I can offer would be the breeders faith in the odds of the ancestral pen, if you believe you had it in that pen the chances of it evaporating in one generation will be small. If it takes years to breed something of value in as a rule it should take time to lose it as well, I would think.

If you like your odds, test it on the cross it was intended for and evaluate the results, time consuming and costly I realize but so was the cost to get that ancestral pen of concentration.

My two cents.
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