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 Reflections Condensed

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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:20 am

LL 3-31-2013

MVCatt wrote:
Does this mean you are going to start registering cows again?  Smile  OT would be so happy!
Oh my gosh Chris, you've rang a bell, to start registering cows again is the last thing I'd ever want to do.    I have never stopped tracking ancestral characters in my herd, and starting to register cows again would transfer all rights of ownership subjected to the rules and regulations of AAA which would  only lead to the demise of anything I've tried to assemble.    I do want to forewarn you Chris that it is extremely difficult to go upstream against 99.9% of the registered mainstream, especially since 99% of the scientific data collection experts don't make their living raising commercial cattle.    

And guess what, the newest Zoetis HD 50K DNA claims to enhance single trait expected progeny DIFFERENCES making them up to 6 times more accurate and predictable than a pedigree PREDICTION alone.   This is another promotional comparative rip off, the reality is that mongrelized pedigrees maximizing differences from the billions of possible combinations have little practical predictability, which renders an EPD average virtually useless relative to the overall profitability in commercial beef production.

Challenging the mainstream directions resulting from maximizing EPD, if  I've said it once, I've said it thousands of times that form follows functional selection and all the DNA or GMO technology in the world cannot change the basic physics of natural law.    The ONLY PURPOSE of a purebred is to improve the consistent renewal  of the selected ancestral the average of all traits in an established "purebred ideal" should be zero.  

Purebred breeding has long been forsaken by the scientific communities promoting variation in their quest for super cattle while ignoring the economic consequences.  How on God's green earth can the mainstream registered selection directions (supported by the ignorance of science) for the most different outlier to continually change the average of a population EVER improve OVERALL consistency regardless of economics?     The only purpose I can see in a public registration paper is in the marketing of  miracles expecting to get something more for nothing......was it P.T. Barnum that said there is a fool born every minute?

Once upon a time still in my prime I was a registered mainstream Mr. Magoo bumping into one problem after another, creating two problems for every one I tried to correct.... until my eyes were opened to see that the mysterious building blocks of the universe are bound together by the cooperative infinitesimal particles of red, yellow, green and blue.....and thus it was that my own big bang actually began in nineteen hundred and eighty two.   Since then I have followed the expanding physics of natural law....a simple but very time consuming process.    I definitely do not need to waste my time and money on DNA enhanced EPD to improve the overall predictability of my cattle, so here is my same ole story that needs repeating, not necessarily for general acceptance, but just  another attempt for better understanding.

Only man measures time, distance and volume applying  values to determine their worthiness.   It is not our time that accounts for anything, it is what we do with our time that counts.   For example, it is not the DESTINATION to renew old Grannie's longevity that has merit, which may not be reached until 2132, rather it is the many side benefits to be gained along the way.     All I really know about old Grannie is that she had ancestors too.    The value of more recent records since 1938 is certainly not in the enhanced or higher accuracy EPD numbers, but in the known "longevity" of the more immediate ancestry of this 28% IBC ton bull born in 1982.    Commercial producers seldom keep "ole grannies" in their herds, so the only real value of longevity is the ACCOMPANIED freedom of problems, the durability, the  functional survival of the fittest over a longer period of time which comes with longevity that is automatically governed by natural law reducing any counter productive antagonisms to "reproductive fitness".  

Time starts somewhere without ending.....Since 1992 MK has helped me discover, cut and polish some of these carbon diamonds in the rough formed over time among the genes that flowed.....and now after 20 years of cooperative efforts,  I couldn't help but notice MK's transformation and current likeness to the NEW  & IMPROVED Mister Magoo with his recently acquired extraordinary vision   Smile .......

The new and improved  happy Mike Magoo is offering some of these carbon diamonds in the rough in his upcoming sale being presented as Keeney Model A's on April 6, 2013, .......molded from whatever distance he has traveled over the last 50 years.   Whether Mike's sale offering has public registration papers for some presumed authenticity or not, the only thing important is that the ancestral characters are properly presented in a truthful and practical fashion.....designed specifically for commercial beef production.   Our actions become habits, our habits denote character and our character becomes our destiny.   Anyone who names their cattle "Unwanted" speaks for itself, which reminded me of how Corbin"s named their T N Ranch (tail end emulous) which I'm sure Kent is familiar with.    Perhaps Kent summed up functional performance best when he posted:  

"Early "performance" people embraced Bonsma because they understood functional performance and fertility were important.When the two no longer meshed, the eyeball was mocked and disregarded- - replaced by technology and "Science". DNA is trying to do the same thing, still disregarding the same problems in the technology it is trying to replace- The basic abiity to pass it on rather than favor the end product and use it as a parent.

How freaking bad would cattle be if Bonsma hadn't been an influence through the latter 60's and early 70's?

Aye, it was the Bonsma scientific influence that explained many of my former Mr. Magoo frustrations while providing me with greater peripheral vision.    However, the Bonsma influence vaporized within the mainstream mania to be "top dawg" by the late 70's.    We know a feeder, packer or end consumer don't care one whit about fertility or reproductive fitness.  As we appraise selection values, my quest for reproductive efficiency, for quality over quantity,  all began with Bonsma's simple comments when as a result of his many observations he said:    

"The subfertile animal has tremendous growth potential, hence the best performers have to be especially scrutinized........Obesity reciprocates sub-fertility and vice versa.....Selecting animals for functional efficiency is the only way to eliminate heritable defects in a breed of cattle which requires a thorough knowledge of applied physiology and endocrinology ."

This old picture of a young cow typifies the "Bonsma characters" consistently transmitted by the nucleus of Balboa.....who just happens to be the foundation nucleus behind Mike's #2966 cow, who is a replication of her maternal great, great maternal  grandam #2944 born a dozen years earlier, a Balboa daughter.....and so when I look at a family descendant born 4 generations and 20 years later  and the basic physiology and endocrinology remains stabilized in today's versions.....portrayed below where functional goodness is optimized....I see self-sustainable functional reproductive efficiency rather than being dependent on the result of some randomized outcrossing by the Magoo numbers to produce more with unsustainable F1's, F2's, F3's, F4's etc. forever after..... only to lose what was initially gained.   Consistent selection ultimately reduces the functional variance to minor degrees of insignificance while increasing proportional prepotency, a genetic fact that has been proven.    Environment influences adaptable size and production levels

Breeding like to like for reproductive efficiency is a matter of individual choice, and so I thoroughly enjoy all of Mike's pictures he posts under the topic of his upcoming sale, portraying the characters behind his sale offering, along with all his honest and practical comments which reveals his own in this example:

this kind might not be right for everyone; but might be right for someone looking to fertilize and finesse the fat kind..

And wouldn't you just know Mike has some more "diamonds in the rough" to cut and polish waiting in the wings.....the ultimate in true purebred breeding without public registration papers available to prevent mongrelized degradation by the old traditional registered mainstream Magoo's.

An example of those waiting in the wings was when MK posted:

Balboa lives...

2944 X 1711

14.5% ibc ET sisters @ 15 months

We know genes are immortal; can Tru-line create immortal gene combinations?

Yes, we certainly can since we reap what we sow as the Bonsma influence also lives on.    Rather than paying attention to Bonsma's observations, all I hear from science and the traditional registered old Magoo's today is numbers in their races to be No. 1 in whatever.   So today I think "Oh my god, I have witnessed over 70 years of this mainstream Magoo nonsense and it keeps growing progressively worse".....why would I ever again want to revert to being a part of that registered world that creates more problems than it solves and calls it the "price of progress".... what a crazy topsy-turvey world that is as I watch people jumping from out of the fryin pan into the fire by chasing more weight on a smaller frame with "fleshing ease"......and I need not mention any popular names proven to be sub-fertile.      

Surely the selection of maternal longevity automatically leads to the reduction of physiological and endocrine problems.    So the underlying purpose of this post is to explain the ancestral characters of the cattle who contributed to the development of Keeney's Model A's......who are not the greatest in the world but intended for those practical commercial cattle producers who want to reduce the stress in their lives while improving their net.    I personallly believe that knowing the selection direction and ancestry of Mike's KMA's is much more important than any mongrelized public registration papers could provide by the Magoo's promoting their most different outliers.

The ":Bonsma influence" has certainly not vaporized in my philosophical world and that world has not been an isolated island.   Not many of you may be familiar with how much Dennis and Erica Voss have also been cooperating independently over the past 20 years in our common selection direction to improve the reproductive efficiency that stems from the selection for longevity.    Nearly a couple of decades ago, Dennis and Erica purchased a family group of four cows from me, #3116, her 2 daughters 3128 & 3131 and a grandaughter #3141.   We have exchanged "genetics" over that period of time and so for a little nostalgic trip down memory lane, I had sent this birthday greeting to #3131 on her twenty first birthday:


Dear 3131:

Thank you for the picture, looks like Dennis and Erica have been taking very good care of you, they are very kind. I'm sending them some Sea Bond to help hold your false teeth in when you smile. You have so much to smile about, my goodness, you must be well over a 100 human years old by now and still walking without a crutch. Sorry to hear your mom and older sister died just a couple of years ago, Daffy will be glad to know that the heritability of your longevity is quite high and proven. Your family is doing well here, your little brother #12006859 born on St. Patricks day 3/17/93 sure inherited the luck of the Irish Aberdeens.   He left us with many shapely pretty girls.... you probably still remember how when his daughters were just a year old, the bulls were always fighting over them.....but of course they're granny's now too.

I'm sending you this picture of your last son born here, #12706458,  I named him Shoshone Euston 3131.   Sorry you weren't here to see him grow up, he was a boss bull here for several years, expressing the typical characters of his dad and of course transmitted the exceptional qualities of his maternal ancestry to his daughters.    You would just be amazed at how many relatives you have here now, I'm sure you would recognize all of them if you saw them. I wish you a happy 21st birthday on April 8th, which was also my dad's  birthday.  


OK, let's fast forward twenty years to see Cow #3131's younger maternal  brother's  (Shoshone Extent 3116) daughters who are now ole grannies too and were the dams of several herd bulls used in our herd.   For one example,  I can't express how delighted I was when I recently received an email from Dennis who now has one of those "Extent" daughters, Shoshone Pride A733.  To express my happiness with the rewards of persistance to stabilize a functional  type,  and the irony of destiny, I want to share some of the comments Dennis said to me:

"Larry, been a while since I heard from you and visa versa.  My brother brought me up a cow .....She has your brand on her and her ear tag says A733.  He also brought me up her bull calf (now going on 18 months) and last year's heifer calf.  She is a small cow in stature with impeccable feet, beautiful leg set, nothing creaky about her, excellent attitude, bright in the eye....At this point in time she only weighs about 1000 but is the neatest, nicest looking little cow you would ever want to put your eyes on.  I'm not asking for anything but what you might remember about her and anything that would add to her current predicament and story in life.  If she produces embryos it will be a way for me to complement some of the other stuff I have going on here.

I just dropped a big barley straw bale over the fence in the pasture where A733 is located with some other older cows .... Anyhow, A733 was the first one over to the now busted bale and she put her head to it and knocked straw in the air like a young bull.  Down at my brother's she found a place along White river, a very treacherous river (you slide in and can't get out), she found some grass and a place to water and wouldn't come to cake.  That's how he first noticed her.  Her size and structure would be hard to fault by the laws of natural selection.  Her son, who I call Squid, is a long necked, well made individual who looks like he could turn out easy delivery and smooth shouldered calves.  So I'm going to let him breed some of my best Angus heifers.  This way I'll be able to identify his progeny.  As far as what I flush A733 to, I'll let you know.  I have some pretty interesting stuff to work with.  I have never seen better foot and leg structure on an Angus cow.  Her toes are as tight as you will ever find in an Angus individual. "

The story behind this cow is that she was sold to Galen Voss with a group of cows a couple of years ago without public registration papers although this cow was old enough to have been registered with AAA.    She was born 3/07/1995 and is now 18 years old.     How time flies, and I just happened to have a picture I took of her when she was still here at 14+ years old.    She had caught my attention because I had seldom seen such a youthful and attractive head on a cow this old, along with her soft color and carcass quality pattern included in her overall functional & symmetric physiology.

Descending from the Pride of Aberdeen cow family propagated in the Craigie herd until 1983 when Mr. Ken Clark sent me two potloads of cows, I copied the magic of her pedigree commonalities for DV's private breeding purposes.......I still own her registration paper to control "you know what"  Razz
...........................................................................................................................Shoshone Balboa N1702 (1982)
...................................................................................................Shoshone Echo 1702 (1987)
.................................................................................Shoshone Ben 99-1012 (1990)
...................................................................................................Shoshone Barbara L 1012 (1982)
.............................................................Shoshone Extent 3116 (1993)
...................................................................................................Shoshone Quent 7103 (1983)
.................................................................................Shoshone Ester 3116 (1986)
...........................................................................................................................Shoshone Balboa N1702
...................................................................................................Shoshone Ester 3111(1984)
................SHOSHONE PRIDE A733 (1995)
.......................................................................................................................Shoshone Balboa N1702
.................................................................................................. Shoshone Echo 1702
..................................................................................Shoshone Ben 99-1012
...................................................................................................Shoshone Barbara L1012
.......................................................... Shoshone Pride A716 (1993)
....................................................................................................Shoshone Balboa N1702
..................................................................................Shoshone Mabel Pride A787 (1988)
....................................................................................................Pride of Margate (1986)
Not just being a randomized fluke of nature, but rather a result of flippin' a two- headed coin......I do believe cow A733 qualifies as a credible candidate for HBR's own MaternalPlus Program. While public registration is irrelevant, I firmly believe the thorough knowledge of ancestral characters remains vital to a breeder's own selection success......and somewhere along the line I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Dennis & Erica develop the beginning of an HBR polled Angus/Longhorn DERIVATIVE that may come close to reaching "Old Grannie's longevity" well before the year 2132 for use in a TruLine application. And I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere along the line in an independent cooperative effort with HBR that Hilly may exercise an option to incorporate the commonality of the selected characters of #A733 back into the progeny of his #A724 as the "TruLine Universe" expands.

Folks, I'm not trying to market Shoshone cattle here with these few examples, but I am promoting a concept in action to explain the practical basis behind Mike's KMA's being offered in his April 6th provide more familiarity with the selected primary characters in their background for any potential buyers. Mike is simply offering his best efforts to improve the consistency of reproductive efficiency by applying his accumulated knowledge of physiology and endocrinology reduce the heritable defects of functional efficiency. I hope this post helps anyone interested in these basic characters to take advantage of Mike's "time savers" on April 6th.

LL busy cutting and polishing diamonds in the rough one day at a time, practicing what I preach while looking forward to the reality of the timeless immortality of life.....without all its imperfections .... Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:37 am

LL wrote...
It has been said that variety is the spice of life.   Outside the mainstream here on KC, about the only unique commonality most of us have is our collective interest in finding better ways to convert our available feedstuffs into beef.....things we can do which often affect any potential profit.   To reach some kind of common consensus,  in this post I am trying to encapsulate all the different comments and opinions expressed on KC by continuing to promote the need to stabilize different cattle types for different functional roles utilizing known genetic truths.     However,  I have noticed the number of posters on KC has dwindled.   I don't know if the reason is that all has been said that needs to be said..... or if any genetic truths may be somewhat contrary to anyone's breeding directions causing them to just run off and do their own thing.    As we each do our own thing, I became somewhat concerned by the frustrating tone of MK's recent post and I've thought about it for some time....reminding me of the difficulties in promoting a proposition contrary to the mainstream selection directions.  

MK posted:

Grassfarmer, back to the beginning of a worthy question in my thoughts the last few days as I worked on Larry`s latest tru-line post...the no epd, no measurement is fine if you are NOT going to sell maternal breeding stock...if you wish to, as I still do, how will you compete saying" small cow in, with impeccable feet, beautiful leg set, nothing creaky about her, excellent attitude, bright in the eye.... neatest, nicest looking little cow. "

Bonsma said man must measure, but he seemed to conclude his work like DV by drawing pictures...type {picture} selection still maybe not a problem for a commercial cattleman`s own use due to his experience, but then when I ask "where`s the beef"; beef meaning commercial dollars, not type...
how many calves at what level of production in 18 years? do her daughters repeat the old cow type ? do her sons repeat the old cow type? and then when I say prove it, what`s your "competitive" proof?
I`m not sure there is any; but until there`re just competing in a "who can tell the biggest story" con game...
something must be quantified to sell...

Well Mike, I must admit that I had to recheck the author of your post since the content reminded me of DF's posts.  Very Happy     On the one hand you want competitive proof for repeatability when no epd or no measures are offered, and on the other you say you aren't sure there is any.  Whether we want to sell maternal seedstock or produce a commercial beef product, or both, competition is an relentless adversary....a normal part of nature.     If man must measure, I must ask what measures should we take that offer competitive proof.     I have frittered away most of my life by measuring cattle that are already here to determine their comparative worthiness, until one day I finally decided it was a useless temporary exercise if those cattle lack the prepotency to renew themselves.  And the irony is the mainstream registered business is not interested in the prepotent renewal of the same kind, rather the monetary rewards are focused on those animals or breeders who can cause the biggest change the quickest.

And so it goes in an industry where progress is defined by increasing production with outliers.   The genetic truth to this cost/benefit ratio is that we've also increased our unmeasured production problems. Those that accept this selection methodology do not consider it to be con games.  I tend to believe that lasting progress is in the reduction of production problems.   So it is my opinion that  the biggest con game is not who can tell the biggest story, but the one in which we deceive ourselves from our own genetic ignorance.    All the proof I need for this statement has already been established by the history of the beef industry.    And history also tells us that the primary driver in the mainstream cattle business is in marketing wherein we're told that advertising doesn't cost, it pays.....and we all know what that leads to.  Very Happy    

Most of the industry does not consider marketing to be a con game, rather it has become a commonly accepted practice  to emphasize the positives of whatever we're advertising while ignoring any negatives.   For example,  I remember that shortly after the AAA purchased the Angus Journal, which was about the same time that simple genetic defects were being monitored, the AAA established a rule that any advertiser of animals in the Angus Journal must also display in their ad whether any animal carried one of these simple recessive genetic defects.....that rule only lasted about a year since any promoted animals that carried these simple controllable recessives were no longer advertised.  Very Happy     And when EPD's were developed to offer "competitive proof" of an animals comparable breeding worthiness based on averages, it also stimulated the many directional movements to increase individual "performance" with extremes or "outliers" while ignoring any unintended consequences.......about the same way the mainstream ignores the $EN maintenance requirements today in their advertising.    

Extremes and averages.....on this 22nd day of April this year we experienced a severe blizzard with low temps in the single digits....a distressing time for both man and beast.      Dealing with the aftermath of seasonal weather extremes sure causes me to appreciate the expected seasonal averages which we rely on in order to plan our operational strategies by the calendar.    Likewise, dealing with the aftermath of competitive cattle extremes sure caused me to better appreciate the more average ones.  Only bad EXPERIENCES with extremes caused me to fully appreciate cows with "impeccable feet, beautiful leg set, nothing creaky, excellent attitude, bright in the eye.....neatest, nicest looking...."     The only way I know how to describe these unmeasured qualities is with pictures along with a complete story.....telling the whole truth is never a  con game......but I am not aware of anyone who advertises the "whole" truth and nothing but .... Very Happy  

If something must be quantified to sell, it would require a comparative standard.   After suffering from my bad experiences quantifying the customary measured traits, I formed the opinion that anyone who cannot identify phenotypic functional efficiency and how to reproduce it either with or without measures should not be in the beef production business.....particularly in the seedstock business.   The first problem is how do we quantify prepotent repeatability expecting to sell it when the primary demand in the marketplace is for greater variation in man's search for shortcuts to increase rather than "repeat" individual production?   To offer "competitive"  proof of repeatability, firstly in order to measure prepotency a means would need to be determined in order to measure the standards of deviation from that means.  

And Mike, I sensed more frustration when you stated in a later post - "in the cost-benefit ratio, another cost of a close breeding program is that the cull has less weight to market..."    That is another presumptive cost-benefit myth when in reality I doubt hardly any of the poorer cattle being produced today with less weight to market were caused by "close breeding programs"......perhaps breeding "TOO CLOSE" just causes more of them, birds of a feather do flock together.   Very Happy    While McCombie said "at last, it all comes to pounds", Bonsma implied that the basic purpose of breeding beef cattle should be to produce those pounds for the least cost and expenditure of labor..  Without question, the registered mainstream "romans" have chosen to continue to breed cattle at the highest cost and expenditure of labor.    From a post under breeding philosophies, Grassfarmer made an interesting comment:

The part I found most interesting was the quote on Bonsmaras:

"It was developed much along the same lines as the Beefmaster, with utmost emphasis placed on environmental adaptability and fertility.....Unfortunately, after Bonsma’s death, South African Bonsmara breeders shifted their focus to absolute growth potential and strayed from the emphasis on functional efficiency."
That sounds real familiar to me.
Could it be that Bonsma's selection standards were too comprehensive or impractical, that the "cost" didn't justify the means?   So Mike, after 50 years of selection, I was wondering if you have identified an ideal "maternal standard" that fits your environment/management best for functional efficiency?   Would that maternal standard just happen to be a more prepotent "purebred" or more likely a "composite" that just happened by chance?  Was it your observations or your numerical measures that identified the Keeney "ideal" maternal type?   In any event,  if man must measure, what measures would be needed and how would we calculate the competitive economic values of that ideal maternal standard?   What level of production would you expect your "maternal standard" to produce over her lifetime from being mated to bulls expected to repeat that "standard" in the daughters?   From the distributions, how much precision in the offspring would you expect for "proof", what would be an economically acceptable range of tolerance and how would you describe it without a complete story or pictures?    

Individual performance measures are often presumed to offer "competitive proof" of how much better or worse something is to some kind of comparative standard.   Let's remember that performance measures began with the herd average as the standard using herd ratios of the individual weights in a given period of time....with the perceived progressive objective being to select the "top" to replace the "bottom"  by stacking "pounds of performance" ....then EPD expanded the individual measures for comparison with the entire breed's changing  "averages", then onward to the ever increasing complexities of across breed individual EPD.....all of this data being  derived from competitive comparisons based on "changing standards" with the presumption the changes will increase commercial production.....but how have they increased commercial profitability if the objective is to produce those pounds for the least cost and expenditure of labor ?????

How have measures actually helped us or do they merely document the peaks and valleys of change.   So Mike, if somewhere in between there is a preferred optimum, my question to you or anyone, what  data or individual quantified measures could or should be taken in order to offer  "competitive proof" to what we SELL,  what would be our "comparative standard"?   Whether any of us agree or not with the types or economics of the Bonsmara or "American Herbataurus" measured standards for acceptance,  they have at least established their own range of standards for tolerance. Every breeder has his own story to tell or sell and we all have the option to either accept or reject anyone's story.   So when you asked "How do we separate and sell our vision from the above without data? what keeps us from being another con?....price is the only number that comes to mind..."  

To SELL our own stories is more difficult than just breeding our own cattle for commercial beef production.  I suppose each breeder could set his own "ideal" standards, and if the objective was to produce more of those that come the closest to that standard,  we could begin with a "zero" by establishing a plus or minus number for whatever is measured and then we would be back to ratioing the deviation from that standard.    The key would be in "what was measured", and any base price could be set by the breeder who places higher values on those who deviated the LEAST from my own  established "Shoshone" standard of "excellence"......the ones with the least functional problems.   Very Happy      

As I encapsulate different views and opininions, I don't want to forget Gavin's interesting May 2013 newsletter posted on KC under breeding philosophys with the topic of "Outliner Bulls", where they come from, and how best to use them."   The portion that attracted my attention the most was when he said:

.....It is expected that as the programme progresses, we will get better and better bulls, the cows will be dropping behind although the bottom performer will be dropped off.

With bulls you only take the very top, with cows you take the total drop, and they must calve a number of years before their worth can be realised. That is why the cows’ keeps dropping behind and the bulls keep forging ahead.

This does not mean that I do not have the greatest respect for the cow. She has to work for the whole year. Firstly she must never miss a calving and then she must bring a live calf in at weaning. She must also cope with the vagaries of the feed and weather and keep her calf alive. Our cows run under standard commercial conditions, so no hard feed in the winter. Perhaps it could be argued that they are under just as much selection pressure as the bulls . The respect that we have for our cows is manifest in the fact that we do not sell cows or embryos because we consider them to be unique. It is easy enough to change selection direction with the bulls but almost impossible with the cows.

"....almost impossible with the cows."  After 50 years of dedicated experience selecting for the highest performing genes , we have one old breeder's conclusions.    During my lifetime while both experiencing and observing the changing of all the different types in a constant selection direction of using the top performing "outlier" bulls, is it any wonder that the functionally efficient cow remains so elusive.   Oh my god, I just cannot believe that the beef industry has failed to recognize the need for prepotent maternal beef bulls for so long.   Is it any wonder that Dylan needs to use a recipe he developed with a dash of this breed, a dash of another breed and a dash of Jersey to produce his own functionally efficient cows....or, that the Miles City Experiment Station, the home of the "high performance" Line 1 Herefords, is developing a maternal composite searching for an "ideal Montana range cow"..

After 50 years of experience,  MK and I can entertain ourselves for hours laughing at all the stupid things we've done from our own genetic ignorance when actually breeding seedstock is a very serious and responsible business.   So rather than get involved in the cost and complexity of all these individual measures which cannot offer "precise proof" of anything anyway when dealing with the current variation in individual genetics of flesh & blood, the only proof is in the pudding, so I prefer to follow Grassfarmer's more practical approach when he said:

" I don't have any quantitive way to describe our cattle in figures but I don't think that's a hindrance with the guys I'm dealing with. Because I can't quantify doesn't mean its a con - if I share what I know of their backgrounds (full disclosure) and the buyer can select themselves from naturally raised cattle I think that's about as "con-free" as it can get. Perhaps the number that will do me most good is the longevity number on the cows because I think that is so important.....a calf a year, never assisted for anything - that gives me encouragement that we have longevity and functional efficiency built into our linebred core. Give me another decade and I'll have better longevity accuracy for our gene pool.

As for developing Maternal EPDs, I was kidding myself - why would people who regularly sell bulls for $10,000 to $30,000 take advice on how to improve their cattle from a guy who sells bulls for under $2500? They have entered the registered mainstream and I'm happily on the outside of that. My interest is in breeding more consistent maternal cattle that will improve beef production efficiency and these registered mainstream guys are so far from that objective they may as well inhabit another planet.

".....they may as well inhabit another planet" Very Happy  Very well said Grassfarmer, breeding cattle to improve beef production efficiency rather than multiplying numbers to SELL remains an individual choice as to what planet we want to inhabit, what ever way anyone chooses to do it.   The genetic truth is that it is impossible to combine both  "stayers" and "sprinters" and expect to sustain one prepotent package, for then we would have neither..

And last but not least, I want to close this confusing post with a picture and a story.  This is the picture and I was disappointed when MK didn't get any responsive comments to his question that he posted.

MK posted:
a trait leading spread bull...are all the spread bulls the same type?


From the trait leaders I've seen, to me they express similar characteristics in in their type regardless of breed.   My story originated a couple of weeks ago when the owner of the Wyoming Longhorn Ranch, located just a couple miles away,  came to see us about buying an Angus bull to use on about 40 of his Longhorn cows who do well in his limited environment.    Longhorns are noted for their longevity and thriftiness and I have never seen a sway backed, big bellied, fat Longhorn spread bull.    Several years ago, John Gams, the owner told me if he gets a 45# birth weight, he expects it to be a "higher performing" bull.  I've known John for 50 years and he is getting to be nearly as old as I am.   John is a part time farmer/rancher wearing a cowboy hat whose primary occupation has always been a packer order buyer whose job requires him to attend all the weekly public livestock markets within our 200 mile area buying cull bulls and cows.  

When we were looking at the bulls I asked him why he was going to use an Angus bull on some of his registered cows and he said his cows were weaning 500# calves, was very happy with his cows  but wasn't so happy with his calves being discounted in the marketplace.

My immediate thoughts moved back to a time many years ago when I was in John Crouch's office at the headquarters of the AAA in St. Josheph, MO when JC was in charge of the AHIR department.   There hanging on his office wall was a big picture of a virile Angus bull bellowing in the foreground and in the background of the pasture was a herd of Longhorn cows, indicative of the time in the late 1800's when British breeds were imported to improve the domestic cattle.  And then my thoughts quickly moved to how DV was using Longhorn bulls on his Angus heifers.    And then the thought occurred to me that the only thing that has changed in the last 100+ years is that DV reversed the functional roles.

With the expected longevity in his F1 cows, John said at his age he wasn't worried about how to replace the F1's, that he planned on mating them to a third breed to get a premium for the calves......there ya go Mike, it's as simple as ABC  Very Happy    So how is this picture connected to my story?   While we were looking at the bulls, I was very surprised to hear John tell me he hasn't seen straight backed bulls like all of the ones in my bull pens for some time, the cull packer bulls he buys are big bellied, sway backed, broken down fat bulls....and he buys many cull cows today that weight up to a ton......but I'm not at all surprised at the type we get when our selection is for more weight on a smaller, earlier maturing frame just to hold down birth weights.   I''ve noticed over time that whenever someone advertises an emphasis on certain traits, it is usually because they have had troubles with those traits.  

In my beginning years, with my put together overpriced registered cattle, I had more than my share of problems with broken down cows with poor udders, poor mothering ability, C-sections, bad feet and whatever else when no two looked alike.....I didn't need those popular neck chains registered cattle wore to identify them.  In my genetic ignorance, I didn't realize the Angus breed could be so bad with pedigrees full of gazillion dollar, outlier bulls.....the only decent cows I had were the cows with unrenowned pedigrees, so I figure it must be a good thing the commercial industry can't afford the mainstream's top selling outlier bulls, thanks to natures distributions, those commercial guys won't have quite as many problems with their cow herds......and that is the whole truth of my story.

It is very easy to critique someone else's  cows or bulls but criticism doesn't improve our own cattle.   So it was my natural reaction to fix all those blankety-blank traits with emphasis on cows that "have problem free udders with impeccable feet, beautiful leg set, nothing creaky about her, excellent attitude, bright in the eye.... neatest, nicest looking little cows ".and why this symmetric model became my "IDEAL STANDARD"......and on this road less traveled it has not been quick and easy but it has definitely been worthwhile.   I live on a planet more like Grassfarmers where I don't  need any "competitive proof".....after all, cows are about 90% of our production population and there is an extreme shortage of more functionally efficient cows......but I'm working on it  Very Happy

On this Memorial Day, these are some of my memories of what some might call the good ole days but I hope to see better days ahead..

LL, an ex-mainstream registered pedigree breeder who has gone through "re-hab"
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Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:53 pm

LL ON 11-5-2013
MKeeney wrote:

Very Happy 
How time flies, my 79th summer just whizzed by, another year is becoming history to add to our collection of experiences.    To describe what kind of year it has been for me involves writing another long chapter about the ordinary routine realities of life.  

My underlying reason for doing this on a public forum like KC is to promote the "truline" philosophical concept,  a practical way to produce more from less.   I have been promoting this systematic approach to hybrid beef production for about 30 years inside the registered business without any success.   A few years ago MK gave me this free opportunity to promote it outside the registered mainstream by creating this special truline topic on KC.... I also appreciate his preparation of my own web page to promote or "sell" my cattle along with  all his other help to further "the cause".  

Most of you know Mike and I have developed a special relationship over many years.   Naturally we have some different opinions on trivial matters but right or wrong we have common long term breeding objectives.  Under "breeding philosophies", Mike created the topic "Reflections Condensed" and I had to pause for reflection by his last post under that topic on November 3rd when he wrote .....when all`s been said, and nothing done", so appropriately describing how there is nothing new under the sun.

It caused me to reflect on many was my message has become very redundant, another was whether it was worth it or not with the realization that here on KC I'm just preaching to the choir....and I imagined hearing the choir singing just forget your troubles, get happy, chase all your cares away, shout hallelujah and get ready for the judgment day.  I wish I could but I can't change my genetic nature and none of us could pick who we are.   I shouldn't let it bother me but I'm so full of this registered mainstream's hypocritical  BS, I have to vent myself every so often to keep from exploding from all my pent up frustrations.  I concluded I must be doing this just for myself so this post is like a "state of the union" address covering many things and I hope any readers enjoy it as much as the relief I get from writing it. Very Happy 

I don't expect anyone on KC but me and maybe OT to really care about the weather here...... but this past summer's hot and dry weather provided enough heat units supplemented by enough irrigation water to permit our crops to be better than they have ever been. With irrigation being a 24/7 job,  I am always glad to put away my irrigation boots when September rolls around....but this year with all the continuous rains we've had this fall, I still used them until the end of October to wallow around in the mud instead of wear'n my steel-toed farmer boots.   With below freezing nighttime temps becoming common I've exchanged them for my insulated muck boots.  

While Levi's and western snap button shirts are my standard year around apparel,  livin' in the "cowboy" state but not bein' a cowboy, my cowboy boots are only for wear'n when I'm not work'n so a pair lasts me a very long time.   My caring wife once bought me some white Nike joggin shoes for the one day event we spent walking around Disneyland, a fantasy world.   Apparently those Nike's weren't made for walkin' since I suffered from shin splints for a month afterwards.... so ever since they're just layin' in my closet with my white dress shirts and suits savin' 'em for my burial....about as useless as all the old semen I'm still paying storage on.   Sandals have never been and never will be a part of my footwear.   I'm sure all this personal data is of vital interest to all KC readers..  Very Happy 

The good and  the bad, the ups and downs.....more vitally important data for those who care about the price of tea in China.   Our sugarbeet tons per acre yields were at record highs netting over 38 TPA despite higher field losses which become extra feed for winter grazing (cows love sugarbeets).   However, these gains were offset by sugar content percentage only averaging a little over 14%....about 3% lower than normal, so we hauled alot of extra bulk water weight for nothing.    I read that the ingredients of Log Cabin syrup contained natural sugar water and I wondered if Aunt Jemima also gets that from me for free.    

Sugar prices are half of what they were a coupla years ago back down to levels of 30 years ago while our production costs are over twice as high.   As the world turns with huge sugar imports from Brazil and Mexico, the big domestic sugar users like General Mills and Mars Candy Bars are happy with below cost sugar prices....producers are unhappy.  I'm sure KC readers would want to know that  cheap surplus sugar is being salvaged to produce ethanol and with corn prices moving downward, the ethanol makers and feeders are happy..... corn producers are unhappy compounded by the rumors that high fructose corn syrup is bad for people, even worse than sucrose (beet & cane sugar).    And we all hear vegetarians and grassfed beef promoters tell us how bad corn fed beef is for people to reduce consumption which helps drive down beef prices making consumers happy......and generic beef producers unhappy.   And poor Mike, once a lucrative crop controlled by allotments, tobacco producers have also taken it in the shorts while the local, state and federal tobacco tax rates/revenues are at all time highs......instead of helpin' us pitiful addicts, wow,  the tax people are really stickin' it to us.

A compromised stabile middle ground in a live and let live society where everyone could at least be semi-happy is wishful thinking.... so producers are left with the erratic whims of supply and demand often seeking the support of government farm programs to try'n survive with whatever;  with producers always optimistically looking forward to that occasional year when prices are up....which only happens when some natural disaster happens somewhere.   Of course disaster insurance is available with the additional cost of yearly premiums but we know ultimately insurance companies adjust their rates so they never lose...investing our money in the economy.

I find it ironic that ag producers do themselves in by our continual emphasis on increasing production which holds prices down.    I've heard that we're producing more beef with fewer cow numbers but I doubt that producers are better off due to the increase in associated production costs and hidden problems.   In ag more often than not, higher output is ultimately more than offset by the disproportionate increase of input; stuck in this rut making it difficult to maintain revenue neutrality.....where the only alternative to thinner margins is expansion as the big fish eat the little fish and the bigger they get, the bigger the appetite.....these things little fish cannot change.

I suppose having the best crop with the worst harvest season is just another one of Murphy's laws.    I'm unhappy from the stress of losing over half of our critical six-week harvest window unable to get into the saturated fields hampered by the mud of abnormal and frequent storms that just kept coming .... along with the exorbitantly high cost of repairs and additional extra problems try'n ta keep our high maintenance corn and beet harvesters running.....but I'm happy that we finally finished beet harvest on Oct 26 just before the next snowstorm and frigid temps were predicted to hit Oct 28 which turned our fall into mid-winter weather.    

Our mettle was tested further by the 3 feet of heavy wet snow dumped on our cattle at Red Lodge on Oct 4th.   We found the cattle standing along the fence line bawling waiting for us to haul them some hay while our RL neighbor Bill Jones had called worried they'd get through our old patched fences into his haystacks....the cows would've been happy, our neighbor very unhappy.     It could have been worse since it was part of that same storm system that killed thousands of cattle in western South Dakota.

A farmer/rancher has the inalienable right to bitch as he encounters uncontrollable events and we're seldom consoled by hearing "things could always be worse".    Adding to my stress of uncontrollable events, my compassionate and conservative wife keeps me abreast of all the political shenanigans reported by Fox news where currently liberals seem to be happy and the rest unhappy.   I'm hearing a lot of criticism of the new Tea Party who seems to be promoting less government.  I don't hear much about the John Birch'ers/bitchers anymore.   I wonder why things have to get worse before someone revolts try'n to make 'em better.  I don't mind anyone knowing all this liberal political correctness crap is starting to drive me as crazy
as it does Kent Powell. Very Happy   
I always thought a nigger was from Nigeria, a spic from Puerto Rico, a wop from Italy, a limey from England, a wetback from Mexico, a kraut from Germany and I'm a dirty rooshian, but the use of those words today is cause for resignation from office.....and since I just publicly said what I said, I'll never ever have a chance to run for a public office, I hope I'm not arrested.  To top it all off is those who attack the highest power in the land by wanting to take God out of everything....ah, well such is the diversity of the human race where we not supposed to be racists, yet we create rules and regulations to keep purity in our breeds of cattle, horses, sheep, pigs or dogs.

Going back and forth across the state line between the "treasure state" of Montana and Wyoming, there is a sign that says "Welcome to Wonderful Wyoming".    I wonder how wonderful it is compared to farming in the "blue grass state" of Kentucky where MK's only current complaint is flies and getting too tired playing golf, blaming his life is only swell if we keep well. Very Happy 

Without a doubt Mike and other farmers in the corn belt don't have to do nearly as much physical work, ground preparation etc., as we do to raise a crop ....I can't imagine farming in a place being able to take vacations in the summertime where all I had to do was sit on the porch watching the crops grow and keep the lawn mowed, or having a ranch with year around grazing where all I had to do was keep up the fences to earn a dollar.    We all can't live where the grass is greener or bluer so we're back to the laws of supply and demand where the monetary values of those greener places are much higher than here.....often priced so high by competitive forces that it is equally as tough to net an agricultural dollar's profit.  

I heard farm ground in Iowa is valued up to 20 times greater than it is here and I wonder how their production can be 20 times better and easier.   Despite my problems, I must learn to think I live in paradise compared to living in Eskimoland or Siberia where the population densities are even lower than in Wyoming.  For my own self-interests,  I'm hopin' the demand for space and quality of life never becomes greater than the demand for money and leisure.

Greener areas and population densities.... I heard there are more cattle in Cherry County Nebraska (so appropriately named) than there are in the whole state of Wyoming.   I suppose I chose to live in this place somewhere in between heaven and hell where hell was the 4 years I spent in the service workin' in the high population density area of lower Manhattan, in the U.S. Custom House next to Wall Street, where the money changers congregate during the week, where it is so crowded there is hardly room to walk.......and on weekends it was like a ghost town as people sought refuge away from this zoo only to return again on Mondays looking forward to Fridays.   I had no desire to spend 5/7th of my life caged in the rat races of hell running over that same wheel that doesn't go anywhere.....I am so glad there are people who do.

Since I am not a people person and I have no interest in golfing, hunting or fishing, nor taking long vacations in a Winnebago, and the snow and cold got rid of the flies, my wife thinks my work is my passion and play.   It must be since it is the driving force that gets me outta bed in the morning always with too much leftover stuff and new things to do.   My father told me when we get everything done the way we want it, all that's left to do is die....I'm in no hurry.  

Lets see, I'm trying to think whether I left anything out that I still wanted to say.   Oh yeah, to divert my attention away from my own day to day challenges wrestling with the sagas of life;  one of my interests is reading all the entertaining banter on KC.  So what has all the foregoing gibberish got to do with the simple task of breeding cattle?  

I'm sure some think the foregoing describes how misery loves company but actually it was intended to be a prelude to demonstrate how I simply enjoy connecting the dots of life and human nature linking them with cattle breeding.....using different boots (or cattle) for different seasons/reasons....uncontrollable events and our struggles between the ups and downs of supply and demand.....nature's population control mechanisms and distributions.....learning to understand ourselves and adapt to the world we live in by our choices ....and mostly to be granted the serenity and wisdom to know the difference between what we can and cannot change.

I find it extremely fascinating how the registered mainstream has kept the demand greater than the supply with not only their motion, commotion and promotions, but in their ability to create delusions from illusions making  zircons look and sell like diamonds to a gullible public.....all  just by  the simple process of perpetuating rarity.....the promised land.     They can even bring back old dead bulls into the realms of popular rarity by turning them into legends.   It matters little whether this is considered fraud, exaggeration, powerful persuasion or BS, it is the ordinary day to day unforced reality of the willing.     Rare artifacts, I can't imagine someone paying a gazillion dollars for a Rembrandt or some famous dead person's underwear....I think they must be crazy but they don't. Very Happy

I must've been crazy to think I could change the registered mainstream into accepting and participating in the "truline concept".    As I walk back down memory lane in my bare feet, reliving time where I tend to savor the positives to offset the negative pains along the way;  remembering the "good ole days" which really weren't all as good as we might remember them;  forgetting the melancholy parts of life; I am now able to laugh at all the stupid things I did.   I wonder how I ever had the ambition to do whatever I did which always brings me back to the question.....what is the purpose of life.....and death.....our own unique purpose ?

Cattle breeding is certainly not of "life and death importance", but it is important to those who rely on it as a primary part of their livelihood.   We spend our lives try'n to make it better, sometimes we do and sometimes we don't, like getting married for better or we try to separate facts from fantasies, truth from fiction and wants from needs.   Human nature....exercising the freedom to choose, I've noticed that 4.9 bar Y 4 sale/MYTH one of the most continuous and popular topics on KC, often critical of mainstream BS with little tolerance for others, often forgetting that we were once an instrumental part of the mainstream....revolting only when things got worse before we try to make 'em better.   Browbeating is seldom an effective tactic, it is only useful for running people away.

Thanks to all of Mike's spare time, KC is like having our own free entertainment center outside the mainstream, a gathering place without going anywhere, where we can vent our own opinions in what sometimes just seems to be an ongoing "us verses them" competitive and entertaining battle of wits with short quips.   By our choices, KC can also be a serious place of collective learning from our mistakes.   Controversial topics seem to attract the most feedback.    Handicapped by our own circumstances and  self-interests,  I try to keep an open mind.  

I had to laugh when Gavin told me that if we can make someone think an idea is their own, they will die for it.  So one of my favorite pass-times is preparing these long philosophical posts for KC to stimulate individual rational thought to overcome our biased induce ideas for solutions rather than provoking criticism, a place where we can rise above the wraths of hell in a cool and collective manner, and especially a place where I can't be interrupted with rebuttals until I've finished my say for the day.  Very Happy 

The views expressed debating the merits of "composites or crossing" always attract my interest being mindful of the basic fact that whether we inbreed or outbreed, the bottom line reality is someone had to apply a degree of inbreeding  before varying degrees of outbreeding can be applied.....the chicken or the egg.     Historic data documents that our selection in a "one size fits all" direction will self-govern the degree of either hetero/homo with some kind of compromised middle ground hoping that what's good for the gander  is also good for the goose..... to keep both semi-happy.    Again it is wishful thinking since history also reveals that we always want more than we have subjecting ourselves to the erratic whims of supply and demand., where too much of one trait is often offset by shortages in another.  

Often referred to as the unintended consequences of selection, either knowingly or unknowingly I am 99.9% sure they are intentional.   Our ignorance allows us to be outsmarted by these deliberate scams perpetuated by traditional overcompensation to keep prices up for rarity along with the continuous demand  or need for "corrector" bulls.    During this process humans love making mountains out of mole hills where just a few insignificant numbers creates enormous value differences in the registered marketplace..... so let's just blame the self-preservation part of human nature for these scams, considering them to just be part of the ruthless survival of the fittest mechanisms that lack compassion or a sense of fair play.  

In nature we have mutations which allow species to adapt with defensive mechanisms in the continuous battle in order to survive over time.   Man has dominion over animals because of his brain.....his ability to outsmart, create, deceive, manipulate and on KC as with all aspects of life, I see our brain's power of persuasion constantly at work.  Very Happy 

Controversial topics and reality.....some time ago, MK wrote:

well Larry,
I happened to think there is some very convincing maternal data for the traits of fertility, calves weaned, longevity...the data shows that cow to be a crossbred......
but do the majority of commercial operations run crossbred cows? I doubt it...I rarely seen them in the Ky heifer sales...
soooooooooo, why would any data "tru-line" could develop be received more readily?
so yelp, we`re back to "have problem free udders with impeccable feet, beautiful leg set, nothing creaky about her, excellent attitude, bright in the eye.... neatest, nicest looking little cows" as useful a formula as any...
instead of a formula to define and cull a cow, it becomes a culling process of people...those who won`t accept that definition can cull us as seedstock providers, or it could be said, that the breeder culls those potential customers who can`t comprehend that "having problem free udders with impeccable feet, beautiful leg set, nothing creaky about her, excellent attitude, bright in the eye.... neatest, nicest looking little cows " is about meaningful as it can be...

Well Mike,  your comments directed to me have been badgering my brain for some time.   "It" happens to think that the convincing maternal data you are referring to is not necessarily  applicable since most of it  was derived from the measured results of "one size fits all" registered mainstream  beef  breeding.     The production upside of "crossing" has been well documented, even leading to across breed EPD.....but the economic downside of perpetual mongrelism has been largely ignored .   Whether we cull breeders, customers or cattle during these selection cycles, in this business eventually we get  back to the old axiom of too much of anything being detrimental.   My brain just happens to believe that somewhere in between too much outbreeding or inbreeding there is a compromised stabile economic middle ground....that it is our selection direction that will determine what is or is not "too much" of either, not pedigree or IBC.

RobertMac  wrote:

One thing I've learned in over 35 years in production ag...there are no magic silver bullets in production agriculture. The only ones getting rich off those con's are the salesmen selling them......The first step is to quit reading all the academia bullshit "research" because no one writing that shit can run your operation better than you can!

Soooooo Mike, since you celebrated  being in this business for 50 years, my brain along with other  inquiring minds would still like the "academia research people" to define what the "real" GENETIC  difference is between "extreme registered outcrosses" and "crossbreds"..... you once posed the question whether parent stock and production stock should be the same in beef production....if they are then someone needs to justify why one has so much greater monetary value than the other.   Oh, I forgot that difference is speculative "artifact value" to cover all the useless extra "registered" costs to disguise them as "purebreds".

"No silver bullets in production ag
".....In order to develop "truline data"  to be received more readily, a stabile concept where everyone could be semi-happy, firstly we need to accept the fact that we cannot change natural law nor man's nature....his natural resistance to force.   I'm reminded that the only way to force an old stubborn cow to move forward down a work alley is to cause her more pain by whipping, poking or twisting  tails than she remembers and expects to get in the someone developed the hotshot.    Benefitting from the universal fear of electricity, I often thought the innovative  hotshot would be a harmless way to discipline small children.....all it would take is the threat to use it..... to control grown-ups, law enforcement uses laser guns Very Happy     But first we have to experience the "shock" before we develop our fear of electricity, then we learned how to control it for our purpose similar to way we're learning  how to harness hybrid power.

On the other hand hungry cows will follow a hay wagon over a cliff  and milk cows are anxious to be milked in order to eat their goodies.   So we learned that training animals and people with rewards is easier than with force or punishment.   Most of us have experienced how difficult it is to get a newborn calf to suckle his dam if they couldn't find a teat, frustrated they tire and just lay they fight and resist your help until they get that first taste of milk....and how some then become dependent on your help until they learn how to fend for themselves.     Human nature is not too much different.    A system with rewards always works better than a system with painful consequences.    Theory is one thing but accumulating data to demonstrate the rewards or benefits of harnessing hybrid power is an ongoing  prolonged process.  

Accumulating data......"academia bullshit "research" has only reaffirmed what experienced cattlemen have commonly observed.    I suppose the basic purpose of supportive data is intended to communicate these documented experiences to the inexperienced during succeeding generations....many researchers lack practical experience. Very Happy    The ""human animal" measures everything conceivable often with contests from who can tell the biggest lie, to who can gather the most gold medals, win the fastest races, hit the most home runs, who's the tallest or smallest, who can eat the most hot dogs in one sitting, etc,etc......all listed in the Guiness Book of World Records.....eager contestants just for the rewards of thrill, fame or fortune..... so I wouldn't expect competitive "mainstream cattle breeding" to be any different than it is.    

The pioneers of modern plant hybrids gave away samples to the producers in order to prove that they in fact were "better" with sustainable consistency......where it was finally accepted that the "homo" parent stock is different and somewhat "less" than the "hetero" production stock.  Soooooo Mike, to develop any data in order for "tru-line" to be received more readily, first we need to remember that we can "catch more flies with honey than vinegar".  

So I once proposed  this new "efficiency contest" ......a contest with measured reliable data designed to see who could produce the most beef for the least cost and expenditure of labor sustainable over the long term.....but for 30 years I couldn't attract any contestants.        Disappointed, I reconciled myself to the fact that the industry must suffer enough pain before it will move forward, but like many old stubborn cows, some prefer to move backwards out of the chute to retreat back to the refuge they were accustomed to....blocking the way for those cows following the leading cow who was willing to move "forward".....another word  for progress.   Looking back I finally realized that the real reasons was that  the expected monetary rewards based on commercial economic reality would be meager compared to those expected rewards in the traditional registered mainstream.

Dealing with nature....Some of you know we transport our cows back and forth the 60 road miles between Cowley for the winter and Red Lodge for the summer....not a desirable annual migrating situation......but necessary in our circumstance for the same reasons birds and animals migrate for survival.   It is interesting to see how easy it is when we can get one of the smarter lead cows up front....the ones who knew they were being moved expecting "greener pastures" lead the rest of the herd onto the trucks.     When I got the Craigie cows from West Virginia back in 1983, for several years we had a hell've time getting them to go into a truck/trailer, especially the calves.    I'm  guessing it was because they had always been on greener pastures and there was no need for epigenetics to pass this learned "greener pasture experience" onto the subsequent generations.....nature's natural response to environmental needs ....often referred to as learned evolutionary environmental adaptation that is somehow built into the genetic code over time.   Luther Burbank referred to genes as stored environment. of the least understood mechanisms.    For 15 years I enjoyed the monetary rewards breeding the mainstream's "highest performing bulls", stacking pedigrees with these abnormal freaks of the population.   However, personally I could no longer bear the consequential pain so I decided to "move forward rather than backing up using "grandpa's or Wye's old bulls" who weren't really as worthy as many today are led to believe .....they too were just that day's contest winners. Very Happy   

My own reality was that in the distributions along with all the increased problems that came along with seeking increased individual production, the frequency of selfish 1700# cows weaning 400# calves was rapidly increasing and the number of 1300# cows weaning 600# calves was decreasing while the number of 1100# cows weaning 700# calves mated to these high performing bulls were becoming virtually extinct.    With registered prices the way they are, it would've been relatively easy and affordable to just keep culling my cows from the distributions, to just keep doing what the registered mainstream has been doing for the last 50 or 200 years chasing different types EXPECTING to produce some kind of biological miracle in a coupla generations.    I had to experience this before I recognized that the "beef" industry's cows were a sorted by-product so I can easily understand why Gavin told me his production consisted of "bulls/beef/cull cows".

Anyhow, it is a long repetitive story but somewhere along the line I became completely  convinced this traditional registered mainstream business actually reduces the efficiencies of commercial beef production......I thought about how their cow herds are a commercial producer's bread and my own livelihood depended on their well being.    Yet today we are still witnessing an oversupply of self-serving registered breeders claiming and promoting more efficient individual cattle but I think they are in the who can tell the biggest story contest, trying to support it by measuring feed conversion in bulls and RFI epd....another useless joke to measure "cow efficiency" Very Happy 

Sooooo Mike,  I doubt anyone can imagine how happy we are that Craig and Tom D have finally entered the "tru-line efficiency contest" as commercial producers breeding and direct marketing their own beef production,  that Craig and Tom are moving forward to alleviate their consequential pains of "mainstream breeding".   Won't it be interesting to see whether Grassfarmer`s preferred type become an instrumental part of this contest and any other's who I've failed to name here.

It matters little whether I am still around to see what happens for I have already seen what can happen.  If they are among the successful winners and ultimately become commercial seedstock suppliers, I want to forewarn them that one of the NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES will be that their children will have to build a Walmart-sized parking lot to accommodate all their commercial customers.  cheers ......along with suffering from all the burdensome stress that success can bring  trying to manage people.  Very Happy 

It's a no-brainer, obviously the ultimate winners of an efficiency contest would surely include those animals who could be managed to have the fewest production problems, described not with numbers but as "having problem free udders with impeccable feet, beautiful leg set, nothing creaky about her, excellent attitude, bright in the eye.... neatest, nicest looking little cows " .....just simply a joy to be around.   My own greatest rewards come from commercial people like Perry Ecker and his wife who run about 500 cows in ND and are proud of the cows my run of the mill, reasonably priced bulls have left behind    And I've barely begun, still with so far to go.   Soooooo, today this seems to be a contest with the least competition.   And if we didn't have problems to manage along the way, can you imagine how boring life would be to live in a Garden of Eden where everything is perfect, where all we had to complain about was getting too old and tired to play golf.  Very Happy     Well Mike, to prevent boredom by creating more perplexing problems to solve, you later posted:

WHAT? GIVE UP CONSTANT IMPROVEMENT FOR CONSISTENT RENEWAL? shame Exclamation shame Exclamation  Very Happy Very Happy 
I believe type to type works well without closer breeding; a closed herd should be more reliable because you are more familiar with the characteristics of the parents ...

but Dylan makes a point...
definition of consistent and consistent for what?

then I ask "what is a good cow"...

I am haunted by the definition of a "production cow" versus a "parent stock cow"...I do not believe they are one and the same...of course, the mainstream absolutely does...

I keep thinking the closer bred, more prepotent animals should be for commercial use; either to sell, or use, for yourself to make production stock that might purposely avoid close breeding; even be crossbreds; yet, would be very consistent around a model type ...

as Gavin says, I hope that makes sense, it does to me.... right now at least Smile 

Consistency......wouldn't it take a consistent parents to produce a consistent crossbreds ( hybrids) ?

Perhaps this was taken out of context but in his closed population  I thought Gavin once said he maintains pedigree to avoid close breeding in order to sustain variation simply because we do not know how to measure the effects of epistasis....which Gavin refers to as the Bulmar effect..    I have to laugh at how nature creates new problems out of man's solutions when he tries overcorrecting the old ones with extremes.    Mike asked "what is a good cow".....and he became infatuated with the type of this one he found outside his Kentucky Dylan's Canadian pasture who says she is a "maternal cocktail", that Mike described as...... one who's all red and white,  blown by all the winds that pass, wet with all the showers, who walks among the meadow grass and eats the meadow flowers.


Maternal this an example of the "convincing maternal data for the traits of fertility, calves weaned, longevity...the data shows that cow to be a crossbred". Of course my first thought was and when she dies, that is the end of her type wondering how many in Dylan's herd were like her and my second thought was why in the Sam hell does this type of cow have to be a "crossbred"?.    Generally we know the "first cross" is usually the most consistent or beneficial..... temporarily the "best of two or more worlds".....who may also carry the "worst of those worlds"    .   For me this is a cowman's cow,  definitely an illustration of unmeasured functional  maternal grace, but OT is more concerned about her color than her type which would be discounted  in his Montana marketplace....a traditional obstacle to overcome.  Much of what we do and sell  is expected to be acceptable in the beef marketplace or be discounted with color being associated with certain breed characteristics with buyers being biased based on reputed  breed averages.      

KP says "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts"..........advertisements make claims you have no right to expect, but it has become expected in ads. Desensitization to reality and the expectation of more and more even if it is only in the expectations.  People make claims for genetic fixes where genetics are not the problem .....and in a later post Kent signed off with  "where CHALLENGERS are expected"

What could present a greater challenge than when Mike talks about closebred "nubbins" important point to ponder when we cannot market or measure a closebred nubbins "performance" as a parent if we cannot understand what genetically happens to all those "good genes" that were expressed causing us to closebreed their parents in the first place.  Smile    Before any inbred can be considered an "uncut diamond in the rough", don't we ultimately measure a parent's true worthiness with progeny whether they be closebreds or crossbreds?  Mike once questioned the logic of "closebreeding" if we were just going to restore them to their former preferred type.  To help explain any genetic differences between parent and production stock, from experience  I'd like to offer  a few examples of basic requirements before more efficient "consistent beneficial renewal" can be achieved.   Before a jeweler cuts a diamond in the rough, he uses his eyeglass to detect the flaws to prevent it from shattering.    Inbreeding, ancestral familiarity and DNA technology can help to detect and control the identified flaws

MKeeney wrote:
for ye, of full faith in performance and none in true purebreds

I guess I`m cornering myself into having to use Nubbin to determine long range effects ...

Not that it matters but this is what he looks like now.

It has been my experience that when "closebred nubbins" are mated to their "closebred nubbins", we can expect to increase the number of "nubbins" produced.   While the genetic principles are similar, there is a fundamental difference between breeding plants and animals.  First and foremost what matters with cattle is that Keeney Nubbin's functional purpose (the ability to breed and settle cows) remains intact and what ultimately matters is the improved consistency EXPECTED from the built-in, prepotent restoration of the expected maternal functionality of the ancestry to appear in the progeny.

What Mike did with Nubbin requires a leap of faith and I'm sure he would willingly tell you about the many disappointments he also endured in both his closebreeding and outcrossed experiences over his 50 years of observations.    The only "proof" from any bull is in the progeny but in our haste the industry developed universal EXPECTED progeny differences based on averages from a gazilion environments.    Regardless of any pedigree differences, form ultimately follows functional selection.  

Only I can appreciate the fact that the picture of Keeneys Nubbin as a calf is a phenotypic duplicate of my Balboa bull at the same age, who was also considered a "nubbin" born back in 1982 .   I have pictures to prove it but I am not as bold as Mike, I rarely show them to anyone who lacks the experience to understand Smile  yet either for better or worse,  that nucleus of germ plasm still exists in most of my current closed cowherd and today as we zig and zag across a straight line, the potential spherical distribution has grown smaller via selection self-governed by the limited boundaries of epistasis.  

And by now, most of us know that Mike avoids naming his bulls similar to the registered mainstream's names like "New Design, New Direction, New View, New Horizon, New Frontier, New Day, New Chapter, Full House, Moneymaker, Top Performer, etc."......bulls marketed and expected to adapt everywhere.    

Mike seems to prefer names like Sniff the Wind, Pete and Repete or Unwanted......and I could hear him laughing with admiration way out here in Wyoming when he posted the picture of the "Unwanted" types as first calf the looks of the grass and corn in the picture, it looks like they are almost starving to death. Smile   What is the most intriguing to me is the uniformity of expressed preferred it from pedigree or selection.....does it matter what percent of hetero/homo or IBC they might decide....their kind look very familiar to me, like I've seen them before somewhere...... .

Unwanted types are welcomed and propagated here...

As I looked at the phenotypes of Mikes first calf heifers, I thought this is about as close to "reincarnation" as we can get.    I also appreciated the response from an "understanding" Jon Tiemann from the show me state of Missouri , who said:

Thanks for the picture pedigree , I know the weak of faith lack knowledge or experience . Yet the pictures indicate a beautiful story .Jon

The story of Christ's resurrection representing the rewards for goodness is considered one of the greatest stories ever told......seeing is believing and seeing the resurrection of more consistant maternal goodness is one of the greater stories Mike and I have experienced..   One of Mike's most recent posts describes our greatest rewards:

it was sure a treat to check cows today with folks from Iowa...thanks Tom and Norma for going out of your way to come by...lots of fun laughing about the fool things others do; exceeded only by laughing at the fool things we have done...

fool me once; shame on you...fool me twice; shame on me....

Sooooooo Mike, as usual I've taken the long way around for my answer to your original question...."why would any data "tru-line" could develop be received more readily?"   In summary Mike we've learned there are no shortcuts, and have concluded that we don't need boisterous data...... either knowingly or unknowingly, by your very actions you have revealed the mysterious secret to getting the "truline concept" to be received more readily......the only thing we need to continue doing is bring people's HIGH EXPECTATIONS back down to reality.     The primary thrust behind this reverse from the mainstream movement is simply independent people helping people be independent with less reliance on bureaucratic societies , which you have demonstrated so well.......that when people buy "purebred" cattle who's progeny  EXCEED THEIR EXPECTATIONS, people are least for awhile. Smile        

The difference from artifact collectors is down to earth people love a bargain.    One of my favorite pictures that symbolizes the sincereness of this inevitable cooperative effort to harness hybrid power  is this one of Mike and Craig that reaches across borders.....there is no BS being spread here......bringing back a ton of favorable memories from Craig's first visit here.....and I can also see Tom D's picture here holding the camera.....I noticed their apparel but wonder what the hell Craig is holding in his hands that Mike doesn't want touching him.

One of my special rewards last summer was watching Betty smiling and waving  to all the many little kids lined up along the streets smiling and waving back when we were honored as the grand marshalls of the 2013 local community Cowley Pioneer Day parade .   I never knew there were so many little kids in this area, no wonder the little town of Cowley saw a need for brand new modern schools.   I suppose Betty contributed her maternal share with 5 children, 22 grand children with 13 and counting great grandchildren.....children are our most important legacy to the future.....and I've found the unique purpose of my life where I'm more than happy just being a "nubbin bull" Smile

An OLD WYOMING "COWBOY" RIDIN A MODERN "MUSTANG"  .....they're not visible but I'm wear'n my cowboy boots.

LL, in the vicinity of frazzled land with absolutely no more steam to vent.......

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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:20 pm

Mike asked
Larry, do you think if you keep saying the same ole stuff people are going to eventually "get it"? maybe instead of sugar and spice, you need a new message... maybe it`s time for some hope and change ...farao farao farao 

from AJ 1984
"Regardless of any size level preferred,
it seems dependability
with consistency must be maintained
before any stock can qualify
for the distinction of being
called a purebred. ”
During trends, uniqueness and rarity are
inclusive factors which determine the monetary
value of breeding stock between registered
breeders. The current demand for a
significant increase in the frame size of Angus
cattle is commanding primary attention
for the financial reward offered for bigger
Angus. Regardless of the role frame size
plays in overall production efficiency, it is
not so important how big we make them,
rather the methods we employ while making
them bigger.
When selection pressure mandates that
functional purpose follow some idealistic
form, much to our chagrin, in reality we
may find that maintaining an intricate balance
of preferred traits with that form may
result in an effort towards futility. Ultimately,
form is a consequence of function. All
our breeds of different purpose portray this
well. It is encouraging to note the comparisons
between sale averages of exotic breeds
and British breeds. They reveal that commercial
cowmen are beginning to recognize
that bigger is not necessarily more efficient.
And supply and demand are coming closer
Determining proper frame size seems dependent
upon the defined objective and
whether the role of the stock will be as
parents in systematic commercial crossing
procedures. If the objective is to raise taller
cattle, obviously selection and mating of tall
to tall will increase the frequency of the trait.
Indifference to the latent content of the
genotype may cause considerable assortment
during succeeding generations-an inefficient
If we try to fill all the differing needs of
the meat consumer with Angus cattle, it appears
that we then need different kinds (each
for an appropriate purpose) to ultimately afect
production efficiency. In 1950, poultry
meat was 80 percent of the price of beef,
while today it is only 30 percent. Efficient
genetic improvement systems must be devised
to compliment production.
According to published statistics, 16 percent
of the meat eaters are primarily concerned
with fast food meals easily prepared;
25 percent are price conscious and may
substitute other products for beet 17 percent
are the health group; 20 percent are
creative meat cooking specialists; and 22
percent are meat lovers because they enjoy
the taste . . . which market do each of us
want to breed our Angus for? What inherent
qualities are most deserving and readily
Once determined, if dependability and
predictability are a definitive part of a breeding
objective, that goal must be pursued
with persistent continuity within the realm
of possibilities. Then frame size will adjust
itself as a consequence of that objective.
Otherwise, correlations among traits may
cause us to propagate “Heinz 57” genotypes
and we then would be in direct competition
with all the synthetic strains being deveioped
today from breed composites. This results
in a lack of genetic order and predictability.
Regardless of any size level preferred, it
seems dependability with consistency must
be maintained before any stock can qualify
for the distinction of being called a purebred.
Whatever function a purebred’s role
is to be, it should be identified and merchandised
accordingly to assure proper usage,
based on evaluated facts, not anticipation.
Winning contests of any nature with individual
stock are temporary, sporadic
achievements if that representative symbol
cannot be effectively and more assuredly
transferred to the commercial industry.
Purebreds transmitting predictability are the
stabilizers for the entire industry.
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:23 pm

mike wrote

a rose by any other name would smell as sweet...and I suppose, the same could be said for a Marlboro Smile 

aren`t you glad you washed your ears for the big day, LL? HD photography can be hell on ears...

MK, admiring a man that can still smile after all these years of playing both in harmony and against nature...Tru-Line cattle breeding is not so much different from playing golf after all...a game you cannot win, all you can do is play...

Larry replied

I like Grassfarmer cuz he thought I looked radiant, not inquiring about the driver who was a former Mrs. Wyoming (also the owner of the Mustang) nor the passenger who was a former Mrs. Montana, he only inquired about the cow crap beside the car. Very Happy      But good grief Mike, the reality of that HD photo you just posted made me look mummified....I shouldn't have given myself a new shave and haircut exposing all my "age spots".... I should'a just left my whiskers grow and wore a hat to shade my face the same way you're pictured in that photo of you and Craig.   I haven't had a town bought haircut in 50 years ever since I bought myself an Oster hair clipper for $20 cuz the barber shop prices kept rising from 35 cents .... still using that same clipper today, so far costing me about three cents per haircut not counting the electricity......that savings is what gives me something to smile about since it helps pay for the professional town haircuts and grooming of Betty's dog Mister....I think it's called sacrificing oneself for another or something like that which ain't too common..Smile 

Just as Grassfarmer noticed whatever that "poop" was on the street beside the Mustang, that damn modern technology caused me to notice that HD photo even shows the scar on the left side of my nose when it was ripped open by my uncle's beet fork when I was 9 years old.  Only 5 years older than I was, he was forking beets piled on the ground onto the truck while I was picking them up and throwing them on the truck by hand, bending down as his beet fork was going one took me to the doctor for stitches, all I remember is how embarrassed I was to have a face caked with blood out in the field with nothing to wipe it clean until late that night when it was time to go home.   Besides showing my clean cauliflower ear from baby "mastoiditus", I'm also embarrassed by it clearly showing the hole in the top of my nose from the recent removal of a melanoma,  along with those surely exaggerated weathered wrinkles from too much exposure under the sun working, not golfing or sun-bathing, never quite gettin' enuff done from dawn til dark.   I would rather think of these as my honorary badges from the battles of life.

Nature did me a kind favor by reducing my close-up vision during this aging process to prevent me from seeing my wrinkles and  still seeing Betty as a 30 yr. old chick when she's not in bright sunlight....she hates bright lights buying only 40 watt light bulbs causing me to grope around in the dim light never able to see anyone's facial expressions so I just imagine they're smilin all the time whomever in the hell they might just happen to be.   But now that Mike has deflated my ego, I'm thinking cremation is the better way to go.    Soooo, does anyone have any use for some free, practically new size 9, triple EEE, white Nike joggin shoes or some hardly ever worn medium size 38-40 dress shirts or progeny have no use for them since they're all much bigger than I am, all I can pass on is my prepaid burial plot. cheers 

I might even throw in some free registerable semen from old dead bulls I've been savin' in case my cattle carry the DD or some other defect;  someone recently told me rumors that the 1940's old Puck of Wickwire was somehow DNA'd as a carrier of defects....who surely inherited whatever they are from old Grey-Breasted Jock or Old when Dr. Beever finally gets done, there won't be any cows left in the Angus breed to use my registerable semen on anyway.    Besides all that, my dress clothes are "growin" too big for me now, the only things that keep growin on me are my ears, nose, whiskers and eyebrows, everything and I mean everything else is shrinkin', and that's the whole truline truth, so help me G_ _ ! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:26 pm

Hilly noted...

Larry Leonhardt wrote:
The difference from artifact collectors is down to earth people love a bargain.    One of my favorite pictures that symbolizes the sincereness of this inevitable cooperative effort to harness hybrid power  is this one of Mike and Craig that reaches across borders.....there is no BS being spread here......bringing back a ton of favorable memories from Craig's first visit here.....and I can also see Tom D's picture here holding the camera.....I noticed their apparel but wonder what the hell Craig is holding in his hands that Mike doesn't want touching him.

I’m late to the conversation but to help Larry sleep, I want to clarify what I’m holding in the picture is in fact thee one and only “Donkey”, my youngest son takes him everywhere he goes. My interference was an effort to progress their relationship from one of dependence to a more independent state for both Carter and Donkey.... That or the fact that I didn’t want to get 3 hours down the road only to turn around and go back for Donkey wedged helplessly in a piece of playground equipment Smile 

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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:29 pm

MK posted on 11-13-2013

Joe Dunkum is one of the few people whose opinions matter to me...not a greedy bone in his body, or greedy thought in his brain...and he writes...

Larry or you have never convinced me that you all did the right thing not registering (except the money saved from aaa).   You and Larry may be the last "big time breeders".  When we are all dead and gone and of course soon forgot about,  the breeders that like to play, will get genetics from when you did register, and all that you have accomplished after you quit registering( for example: the fields of cows you now have and cows like I last bought from Larry and you last bought)  will be left out of the gene pool and that's a shame.  Because they are better cattle than the ranchers are breeding that ride the fantasy wagon of the aaa.

Larry or you have never convinced me that you all did the right thing not registering (except the money saved from aaa).

Lots of money saved; if you put value on time and less aggravation at a genetic cost to the maternal cattle of absolutely nothing ....but reducing cost is not the primary objective...if you read the  tru-line proposal of 1983, it more than hints that the day would come that lines would be private; a common practice of parent seed companies...Tru-line`s customer is not registered breeders; it`s commercial producers just as Pioneers seedcorn is...the prepotency of a strain can only be diluted by putting another parent stock breeder and the commercial producer...

 You and Larry may be the last "big time breeders".
Very Happy
Correction; might be the last of the "big idea breeders"...KC is about insuring we aren`t...I`m just along for the ride; stoking the broiler as needed; LL is the engineer...

When we are all dead and gone and of course soon forgot about,  the breeders that like to play, will get genetics from when you did register,

oh they already do, but registered diluted will always be inferior to Tru-line...two completely different concepts...

and all that you have accomplished after you quit registering( for example: the fields of cows you now have and cows like I last bought from Larry and you last bought)  will be left out of the gene pool

not out of the gene pool; but out of the registry

and that's a shame.

no, it`s business not as usual...honest, forthright, economical, and proprietary

Because they are better cattle than the ranchers are breeding that ride the fantasy wagon of the aaa.

only better for certain specific production purposes;  not for everything
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:31 pm

Larry posted on 11-15-2013

I've stolen Kent Powell's recent post under the topic "pedigree value" using it here as the prelude to this post.  MK and KP are certainly internet libraries of information:

"The future definition of "better"
Today, in the mid-1980s, seed stock producers are
becoming more appreciative of this fact. We now have a
"systems perspective." We know that intermediate levels of
performance for traits like milk production, birth weight,
and mature size are optimal, that efficiency results from a
delicate balance of many traits interacting with
environmental factors, and that overall genetic merit is
complex in nature and difficult to quantify. We know
different animals are appropriate in different situations and
that in some cases, efficiency is limited by environment,not genetics."

"There's an interesting twist to this situation, however.
Precisely because intermediate levels of a number of traits
are the most efficient, many cattle populations may be
close to genetically optimal already. To be sure, there is
always room for improvement. But in terms of overall
genetic merit, many cattle-if located in the right place
and used in the right way-may be about as good as
cattle can get. If this is the case, we arrive at the
uncomfortable conclusion that maximizing the rate of
genetic change can be a waste of effort. What, then, are
seed stock producers and animal breeding researchers to
do? How do we select breeding cattle under these

Selection approaches to consider
If we begin with the assumption that the major traits
of growth rate (size) and milk production are near optimal
levels within a herd, it follows there should be a shift in
emphasis away from them. Selection emphasis should be
moved toward the more subtle traits related to adaptability
and convenience, the "fine points." These would include
fertility, soundness, fleshing ability, calving ease,
survivability, and temperament.

Despite the shift away from selection for milk and
growth, these traits are still very much present and must
be dealt with. There will be a fundamental change in the
approach to selection, however. Breeders will be selecting
from the "middle" for these traits. No longer will the eye catching,
extreme calf be the one that is kept as a herd
sire. The herd sire will be relatively nondescript.
Psychologically, making the transition to this type of
selection may be very difficult for many breeders. There is
some consolation, however, in knowing that although it may appear
only average animals are being selected, in terms of genetics merit,
the best animals are being selected

High EPDs not always best in genetic improvement

EPDs are not a measure of value.

However, when consistency-not change-is the goal,
accuracy of evaluation becomes critical. This implies
heavier use of older bulls. Selection differentials can be
expected to decline and generation intervals increase.
As breeders turn their attention to the "fine points,"
the adaptability and convenience traits, sire evaluation
should shift its focus also.

As breeding objectives for the major traits are
reached, beef cattle selection will require a whole new way
of thinking. Rapid genetic change will no longer be
important. We will enter a period of "new conservatism"
where extremes are avoided, increasing attention is paid to
accuracy of evaluation, and primary emphasis is on
preventing mistakes. The genetic change that does occur
will be in the areas of adaptability and convenience and
can be expected to be slow.

Thanks a million Kent for digging this out of the archives.   Naturally I would think this is one of the most rational and best posts I have read for some time.  Smile    As everyone here knows, it was also in the early 1980's that I thought my "truline concept" would be the solution to the evolution to better beef breeding......but it's just too damn SLOW.    Several years ago I was asked by Galen Fink to give a short presentation on the so called maternal "convenience traits" at an annual BIF meeting being held in Kent's turf, the sunflower state of Kansas.   Poorly presented without the customary slides, statistical charts, bells and whistles of promotion,  it was a dismal failure, completely bored and ignored by  the several hundred EPD performance oriented attendees..... returning home humiliated vowing never to make a public spectacle out of myself again.....but here I am again back on public KC. Smile 

The difference is I'm exposing myself to a completely different audience outside that BIF registered mainstream full of lofty professors.  Here I'm in my own lonely world.   Often feeling sorry for myself, few know how much damnation I've received for discontinuing public registration papers on my cattle, and even fewer understand why I removed all the identification on the cattle in my original 1983 "TruLine booklet".......I must be a glutton for punishment for my choices since the small part of my life dealing with people in the high and mighty cattle breeding world has certainly not been a bowl of cherries.....often wondering WHY I bother to persist.



Why  the sun lightens our hair, but darkens our  skin?

Why  don't you ever see the headline 'Psychic Wins  Lottery'?

Why  is it that doctors and attorneys call what they do  'practice'?

Why is the man who invests all your money called a broker?

Why  do we leave cars worth thousands of $ in our driveways and put  our useless junk in the  garage?

Why  is lemon juice made with artificial flavoring, and dish washing liquid  made with real lemons?

Why  is the time of day with the slowest traffic called rush  hour?

Why  don't they make the whole plane out of that indestructible black box  stuff?

Why  don't sheep shrink when it rains?

Why  are they called apartments when they are all stuck  together?

Why did I choose Wye as a genetic base and then call them Shoshone ?

So ya'll  know WHY  I did, stutter is just like n'utter.  To be or not to be Shoshones with papers , that is the question.   I cannot understand why I have failed so miserably in communicating my reasons for discontinuing public registration of my cattle.... even among my most dear closest friends.....even my wife still thinks that was a very dumb thing to do.    And when Mike recently posted what Joe Dunkum recently wrote him, I was flabbergasted....."they" just cannot understand me and I cannot understand "them", we must be living in separate worlds.    If my world  is lttle and round, "their" world must be a big  square box with corners filled with goodies..... so I laugh and laugh. Very Happy 

MK said Joe said:

Larry or you have never convinced me that you all did the right thing not registering (except the money saved from aaa).   You and Larry may be the last "big time breeders".  When we are all dead and gone and of course soon forgot about,  the breeders that like to play, will get genetics from when you did register, and all that you have accomplished after you quit registering( for example: the fields of cows you now have and cows like I last bought from Larry and you last bought)  will be left out of the gene pool and that's a shame.  Because they are better cattle than the ranchers are breeding that ride the fantasy wagon of the aaa.

I agree with most of Mike's responses while he's stoking the boiler, yet whenever I'm told I could do the same thing inside that registered square-boxed world as I am doing now.....I say NO, HELL NO,  I  MOST DEFINITLY  CANNOT!!!!!   For 25 years after my encounter with Osteopetrosis, I tried to use my super, even extra-super powers of persuasion keepin' up my public papers......I really really tried inside the box, but finally fish gotta swim 'n birds gotta fly, I gotta do my thing before I die. Smile 

I'm aware that apples don't fall too far from the family tree, stressing the importance of similarity, and intimacy with the ancestry,  for more consistent renewability, without the need for public pedigree, for proof of honesty and integrity.   In my little round world no one owns any genes, we just have temporary custody of some of them in our cattle with the G_ _-given ability to either organize or disorganize them.

The genes in my cattle will never be left out of the registered gene pool for that is from whence they came.   Like generals, old genes never die, they just fade away temporarily out of sight as we see them resurface over and over again each day as the round world turns throughout all of history's different priority selection cycles .    Infertile animals do not reproduce, yet after eons they still appear among us today .    Publicly registered defective animals are brazenly culled, yet they too remain prevalent among us today.  We're very good at blaming some bull/cow, or somebody,  but for Pete and Repete's sake, for once in our lives let's get real folks and open our friggin eyes.    The only way to minimize problems is the "truline" way to improve efficiency by organizing rather than disorganizing/mongrelizing genes.....may G_ _ have mercy on the souls of dis-believers banished forever to the wraths of hell..  Smile 

Lest we forget,  the registered mainstream's hands are tied to their traditional habits of increasing everything including problems...... my hands are free at last.  "They" propagate  problems, "they" always have a bull to fix'em while being acclaimed for their most different disorganized public pedigrees.....but poor pathetic me, I am either damned or condemned for the lack of official public pedigrees in order to organize my cattle's genes to manage problems .     Good grief Charlie Brown, even Lucy knows you can spend a lifetime organizing genes and they can be totally disorganized in one generation by you know who while you're still foolin' around with Snoopy sniffing into my proprietary business.

LL so glad G_ _ has a sense of humor....ever wonder WHY "Tr _ _ _ _ e" is a taboo word for those who live in a place I call Pandora's Box.

P.S.  To avoid anything being personalized, this post is dedicated to those special cattle promoters living in the "Hawkeye" and "Centennial" states.

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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:05 pm

on 11-15-2013 Chris Blough posted...

I was wondering if you noticed any change in your cattle after you stopped registering them? I guess there are a couple of ways to look at it. Like most parents who want their children to aspire to greatness, maybe your herd went through some sort of depression knowing their kids would do nothing more than contribute to the lowly commercial segment. Or maybe with the pressure off of them, they actually performed better. No more restless nights worrying if they were going to get culled for their low YW epd's. "Well let's see I've had 15 calves and my $EN is pretty high, I sure hope he keeps me around another year".

I'm pretty sure the cattle never changed after the registrations stopped. I'm pretty sure the direction of the breeder never changed after the registrations stopped. The problem is how everyone else perceived the cattle and the breeder. But rather than question everyone else...we question the cattle and the breeder.

MV...proud to be part of this group who isn't everyone else.
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections Condensed   Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:37 am

paid some bills today to insure these thoughts be available for a longer period of time...I see my remade friend has pulled the plug on 5barx,
and advantage is a useless gotcha game...I do remember LL asking "what the hell does _ _ know about breeding cattle" which I repled "absolutely nothing...just the crap you put up with in a public forum" everything there is a season, and that season has expired...
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Keeney`s Corner :: Breeding Philosophies :: Reflections of Larry Leonhardt-
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