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 Bull went out today

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PatB



Posts : 352
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Bull went out today   Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:01 am

The bull went out this morning for an early christmast present if he can find any cows in heat. Decided to call the AI breeding season over for another year after 20 days. Did not manage to catch as many on natural heats as I would have like but did catch 26.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Bull went out today   Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:38 am

PatB wrote:
The bull went out this morning for an early christmast present if he can find any cows in heat. Decided to call the AI breeding season over for another year after 20 days. Did not manage to catch as many on natural heats as I would have like but did catch 26.

are you narrowing, or broadening, the genetic base, Pat?
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PatB



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Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
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PostSubject: Re: Bull went out today   Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:57 pm

MKeeney wrote:
PatB wrote:
The bull went out this morning for an early christmast present if he can find any cows in heat. Decided to call the AI breeding season over for another year after 20 days. Did not manage to catch as many on natural heats as I would have like but did catch 26.

are you narrowing, or broadening, the genetic base, Pat?

I am broadening the genetic base this year with cedar ridge, HBR 6141, chisum and bringing traveler 004 back around. The herd sire this year is Norwest 129 Sure shot 2161 Reg: AAA 17272997. I plan on using the above bulls again next year along with Robert's "Just Right" bull with the herd sire being a cedar ridge son out of a 9 year cow.
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outsidethebox



Posts : 75
Join date : 2010-11-17
Age : 64
Location : Goessel, Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Bull went out today   Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:11 pm

Pat, I am lost here. You bred 26 cows to 4 different bulls AI and you are now turning a 1% IBC bull in to "cleanup". And you are registering your stock. And this is entered under the "Breeding Philosophy" section...but the philosophy escapes me. Are your cows bred with a similar philosophy? What are you expecting to accomplish with these matings? You are a brave man.
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PatB



Posts : 352
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Bull went out today   Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:15 am

The bull is not linebreed or inbred but a fair shair of his calfs will be . He will be breeding some of his 1/2 sisters or closer along with descendants of schurrtop supreme, 004 and his maternal great grand dam. HBR 6141 and cedar ridge were used in hopes producing easy fleshing animals that work under grassfed management. 004 was used to produce more daughters, his sons sell well as steers or bulls.
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Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Bull went out today   Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:42 am

I sense the joy in breeding cattle with you PatB. This is what it is. Hang tight to it. DV...planning on breeding cattle with the joy of freedom even more than I already have. Thanks for the inspiration PatB and Merry Christmas.
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Grassfarmer



Posts : 714
Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Bull went out today   Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:53 am

Pat would it not be easier to select for fleshing ability under your grass conditions by selecting the females rather than selecting a bull to use through AI that comes from a different environment?
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PatB



Posts : 352
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Bull went out today   Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:55 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
Pat would it not be easier to select for fleshing ability under your grass conditions by selecting the females rather than selecting a bull to use through AI that comes from a different environment?

The walking herd bulls are selected from the cows that work under my management style. The AI sires are used to tweak the present genetics in the herd. The main objective of the herd is to produce cattle for the grassfed market in the most profitable way with the least amount of headaches for me.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Bull went out today   Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:06 pm

PatB wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
Pat would it not be easier to select for fleshing ability under your grass conditions by selecting the females rather than selecting a bull to use through AI that comes from a different environment?

The walking herd bulls are selected from the cows that work under my management style. The AI sires are used to tweak the present genetics in the herd. The main objective of the herd is to produce cattle for the grassfed market in the most profitable way with the least amount of headaches for me.

Given your stated objective I don't see why you bother with AI. Easiest way to increase your profit and reduce headaches would be to let the bull breed them all wouldn't it?
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PatB



Posts : 352
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Bull went out today   Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:18 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
PatB wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
Pat would it not be easier to select for fleshing ability under your grass conditions by selecting the females rather than selecting a bull to use through AI that comes from a different environment?

The walking herd bulls are selected from the cows that work under my management style. The AI sires are used to tweak the present genetics in the herd. The main objective of the herd is to produce cattle for the grassfed market in the most profitable way with the least amount of headaches for me.

Given your stated objective I don't see why you bother with AI. Easiest way to increase your profit and reduce headaches would be to let the bull breed them all wouldn't it?

I am not ready to breed that close for multiple generations. The only new genetics that come on this place is via AI. I also like to take some of the pressure off the yearling bull by reducing the number of cows he needs to breed. He will need to cover 50 plus females this season if most of the cows bred AI settle.
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Grassfarmer



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Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Bull went out today   Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:57 pm

PatB wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
PatB wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
Pat would it not be easier to select for fleshing ability under your grass conditions by selecting the females rather than selecting a bull to use through AI that comes from a different environment?

The walking herd bulls are selected from the cows that work under my management style. The AI sires are used to tweak the present genetics in the herd. The main objective of the herd is to produce cattle for the grassfed market in the most profitable way with the least amount of headaches for me.

Given your stated objective I don't see why you bother with AI. Easiest way to increase your profit and reduce headaches would be to let the bull breed them all wouldn't it?

I am not ready to breed that close for multiple generations. The only new genetics that come on this place is via AI. I also like to take some of the pressure off the yearling bull by reducing the number of cows he needs to breed. He will need to cover 50 plus females this season if most of the cows bred AI settle.

Why the fear of close breeding? you've already tested everything and proven them without genetic defect so what could go wrong? How about a two bull solution? 1 to breed maternal replacements and one to breed terminal?
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PatB



Posts : 352
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
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PostSubject: Re: Bull went out today   Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:08 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
PatB wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
PatB wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
Pat would it not be easier to select for fleshing ability under your grass conditions by selecting the females rather than selecting a bull to use through AI that comes from a different environment?

The walking herd bulls are selected from the cows that work under my management style. The AI sires are used to tweak the present genetics in the herd. The main objective of the herd is to produce cattle for the grassfed market in the most profitable way with the least amount of headaches for me.

Given your stated objective I don't see why you bother with AI. Easiest way to increase your profit and reduce headaches would be to let the bull breed them all wouldn't it?

I am not ready to breed that close for multiple generations. The only new genetics that come on this place is via AI. I also like to take some of the pressure off the yearling bull by reducing the number of cows he needs to breed. He will need to cover 50 plus females this season if most of the cows bred AI settle.

Why the fear of close breeding? you've already tested everything and proven them without genetic defect so what could go wrong? How about a two bull solution? 1 to breed maternal replacements and one to breed terminal?

The bull prospects this year are not what I want to base a long term breeding program on.
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Grassfarmer



Posts : 714
Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Bull went out today   Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:37 pm

PatB wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
PatB wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
PatB wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
Pat would it not be easier to select for fleshing ability under your grass conditions by selecting the females rather than selecting a bull to use through AI that comes from a different environment?

The walking herd bulls are selected from the cows that work under my management style. The AI sires are used to tweak the present genetics in the herd. The main objective of the herd is to produce cattle for the grassfed market in the most profitable way with the least amount of headaches for me.

Given your stated objective I don't see why you bother with AI. Easiest way to increase your profit and reduce headaches would be to let the bull breed them all wouldn't it?

I am not ready to breed that close for multiple generations. The only new genetics that come on this place is via AI. I also like to take some of the pressure off the yearling bull by reducing the number of cows he needs to breed. He will need to cover 50 plus females this season if most of the cows bred AI settle.

Why the fear of close breeding? you've already tested everything and proven them without genetic defect so what could go wrong? How about a two bull solution? 1 to breed maternal replacements and one to breed terminal?

The bull prospects this year are not what I want to base a long term breeding program on.

How can they not be if they "are selected from the cows that work under my management style"? What more could a person want? Or are you sure you unintentionally sabotaging your breeding program by outcrossing to AI sires from a different environment?
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PatB



Posts : 352
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Bull went out today   Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:41 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
How can they not be if they "are selected from the cows that work under my management style"? What more could a person want? Or are you sure you unintentionally sabotaging your breeding program by outcrossing to AI sires from a different environment?

I do not know about the environment thing but other challenges/concerns come with outside genetics. The Blue moon male line will end after this breeding season if any of the cows that were bred AI to HBR 6141 or 004 settle and have a bull calf. A portion of blue moon descendants do not want to stayed weaned.
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Grassfarmer



Posts : 714
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Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Bull went out today   Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:44 pm

PatB wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
How can they not be if they "are selected from the cows that work under my management style"? What more could a person want? Or are you sure you unintentionally sabotaging your breeding program by outcrossing to AI sires from a different environment?

I do not know about the environment thing but other challenges/concerns come with outside genetics. The Blue moon male line will end after this breeding season if any of the cows that were bred AI to HBR 6141 or 004 settle and have a bull calf. A portion of blue moon descendants do not want to stayed weaned.

I must confess I don't understand your thinking Pat. You put great faith in your "foundation cows" but you are not happy enough with any of their male descendants to retain them. Yet you suggest you would be happy to keep any bull calf next year out of unrelated AI bulls. Sounds awfully "registered mainstream" thinking to me.
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PatB



Posts : 352
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Bull went out today   Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:10 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
PatB wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
How can they not be if they "are selected from the cows that work under my management style"? What more could a person want? Or are you sure you unintentionally sabotaging your breeding program by outcrossing to AI sires from a different environment?

I do not know about the environment thing but other challenges/concerns come with outside genetics. The Blue moon male line will end after this breeding season if any of the cows that were bred AI to HBR 6141 or 004 settle and have a bull calf. A portion of blue moon descendants do not want to stayed weaned.

I must confess I don't understand your thinking Pat. You put great faith in your "foundation cows" but you are not happy enough with any of their male descendants to retain them. Yet you suggest you would be happy to keep any bull calf next year out of unrelated AI bulls. Sounds awfully "registered mainstream" thinking to me.

GF it is not the maternal side of the equation that I have a problem with but the paternal grandsire of current herd bull. You can learn alot in 5 years since the choice was made to use a certian AI sire. I know what 004 brings to the table as he has a fair number of descendants in the herd and I am willing to chance HBR 6141. HBR 6141 cannot be any worse then some of the AI sires this farm has used in the past and most likely better then average for producing females.
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Kent Powell



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Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Bull went out today   Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:21 am

Best wishes on your journey Pat.
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PatB



Posts : 352
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
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PostSubject: Re: Bull went out today   Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:23 am

Kent Powell wrote:
Best wishes on your journey Pat.

Thanx.
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EddieM



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Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Bull went out today   Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:53 am

Pat, have you considered using old bulls in your herd to overcome whatever problem you currently have with the bull's ancestor?
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PatB



Posts : 352
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PostSubject: Re: Bull went out today   Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:05 pm

EddieM wrote:
Pat, have you considered using old bulls in your herd to overcome whatever problem you currently have with the bull's ancestor?

Please define old bulls? The plan is to steer all progeny of this bull. I have no plan to go back and use old bulls to eliminate future challenges with descendants of the AI sire in question. I will continue with the AI bull battery that I have selected and make adjustments as neccessary.
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