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jonken



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PostSubject: Re: Tru-line offspring   Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:30 am

LCP wrote:
jonken wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Cole Creek Clovanada 54U tells me nothing...how about a registration number so I can read the pedigree and imagine it means something as I once thought...we could see if any attempt had been made to closer breed...anyone wanna bet she is above 3% IBC?

15822854--AAA says she is .42 % ......

  And I say she is one generation away from being a crossbred at that pace .  Jon
Isn't everything one generation away from being a crossbred? 


Why should a commercial producer concern himself with IBC in his females?

  Very true lcp with your fist question , however I was refering to the .42% .  And , no ,  a commercial producer should not concern himself with ibc's ( as well as seedstock producers ) .  I sure wish I knew which emoticons to use with my few words in order to get my sarcastic point across . Oh Hell I'll let Mike  and Briann do that for me , I'd ask Kent but  I fear he is being tracked by drones .  LCP thanks for keeping my remarks valid . Jon
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PostSubject: Re: Tru-line offspring   Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:58 am

MKeeney wrote:
LCP wrote:
jonken wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Cole Creek Clovanada 54U tells me nothing...how about a registration number so I can read the pedigree and imagine it means something as I once thought...we could see if any attempt had been made to closer breed...anyone wanna bet she is above 3% IBC?

15822854--AAA says she is .42 % ......

  And I say she is one generation away from being a crossbred at that pace .  Jon
Isn't everything one generation away from being a crossbred? 


Why should a commercial producer concern himself with IBC in his females?

to avoid it? Smile
about the only thing separating OT`s crossbred calf he`s making light of from his cow is a set of meaningless registration papers unless you raised and were familiar with a majority of the animals in that pedigree...

Well for years and years on the internet I heard nothing but the goodness of part of her pedigree being preached -- Shoshone Encore 6310... And for the rest of the pedigree- we took the breeder for his word/history on... And haven't been disappointed....
And here I thought you liked these grey calves with no IBC's, EPD's, CAB's, ABC's, whatever ?  Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Tru-line offspring   Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:43 am

MKeeney wrote:
LCP wrote:
jonken wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Cole Creek Clovanada 54U tells me nothing...how about a registration number so I can read the pedigree and imagine it means something as I once thought...we could see if any attempt had been made to closer breed...anyone wanna bet she is above 3% IBC?

15822854--AAA says she is .42 % ......

  And I say she is one generation away from being a crossbred at that pace .  Jon
Isn't everything one generation away from being a crossbred? 


Why should a commercial producer concern himself with IBC in his females?

to avoid it? Smile
about the only thing separating OT`s crossbred calf he`s making light of from his cow is a set of meaningless registration papers unless you raised and were familiar with a majority of the animals in that pedigree...
 

 I remember reading:

Quote :

Breeding techniques measured by speculative monetary reward rather than by commercial economic contribution are perpetrated lotteries. To improve efficiency, the beef industry must divest itself from flirting with any parasitic elements, spawned from passive unawareness, who may debase the vital role of the profession. Divergent total performance breeding programs have been the initial sincere courtship between the seedstock supplier and the commercial producer.The ultimate marriage between these segments can be stimulated by designed and pre-evaluated linecrossing systems. United in this harmonious effort, the nucleus for harnessing hybrid power will be born.Utilization of hybrid power will provide yet another progressive step by genetically producing more from less.


Larry Leonhardt  1983, A Systematic Approach for Hybrid Beef Production



More Prepotent Purebreds Produce More Consistent Hybrids



http://shoshoneangus.homestead.com/home6.html



And over many years of crossbreeding (started in 1969- after all the college professers said you had to or you would be left behind ) I have seen the benefits (and also the negatives) of crossbreeding- and as I look for the easier years of my life as I get older decided I would just concentrate on one of the segments of producing consistent hybrids...
But I'm far from upset about getting a crossbred calf- as he will put on good pounds and sell well in the fall... Show what those good maternal cows can do when some hybrid vigor is added to the mixture....Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Tru-line offspring   Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:04 am

In principle, what is the difference between outcrossing and crossbreeding...why are registered cattle most always outcrossed as in the case of your cow, OT?

yeah, I guess this was/is a superlative promotion of 6310...

Born in 1985, “Encore” has been utilized heavily in the Horse Butte herd. He adds longevity; he bred his last cows as a 12 yr. old, his dam produced her last calf at 17 yrs of age. His structure was impeccable. He had a gentle disposition and throws gentle dispositions. He improves teat and udder attachment and produces excellent marbling and ribeye. His progeny excel on forage, shed off well and he has proven to be a bull that works well on all types of forage from the southern fescues to the northern hard grasses. We value his ability to contribute true foundation genetics in a package that fits our management practices. Owned by Shoshone Angus, Keeney Angus, and Barry Cooper. Deceased.
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Oldtimer

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PostSubject: Re: Tru-line offspring   Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:26 pm

MKeeney wrote:
In principle, what is the difference between outcrossing and crossbreeding...why are registered cattle most always outcrossed as in the case of your cow,  OT?

yeah, I guess this was/is a superlative promotion of 6310...

Born in 1985, “Encore” has been utilized heavily in the Horse Butte herd.  He adds longevity; he bred his last cows as a 12 yr. old, his dam produced her last calf at 17 yrs of age.  His structure was impeccable.  He had a gentle disposition and throws gentle dispositions.  He improves teat and udder attachment and produces excellent marbling and ribeye.  His progeny excel on forage, shed off well and he has proven to be a bull that works well on all types of forage from the southern fescues to the northern hard grasses.  We value his ability to contribute true foundation genetics in a package that fits our management practices.  Owned by Shoshone Angus, Keeney Angus, and Barry Cooper.  Deceased.

My cow was pure accident --Too many neighbors bulls;)
The old college answer for why to outcross that I was always given was to gain the advantages received from heterosis/hybrid vigor.... Crossbreeding is outbreeding- supposedly at a bigger heterosis enhancement than within breed breeding.....
The tough part of that is keeping the desired % and consistency of the cross to get maximum benefit... It is tough to maintain the maximum benefit offered by a true F1 cross without running multiple herds or purchasing replacement animals...
Or as was said in the Shoshone website:

More Prepotent Purebreds Produce More Consistent Hybrids
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PostSubject: Re: Tru-line offspring   Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:31 pm

I would just concentrate on one of the segments of producing consistent hybrids...

how are you concentrating on one of the segments for producing more consistent hybrids by outcrossing registered Angus cattle?

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PostSubject: Re: Tru-line offspring   Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:59 pm

MKeeney wrote:
I would just concentrate on one of the segments of producing consistent hybrids...

how are you concentrating on one of the segments for producing more consistent hybrids by outcrossing registered Angus cattle?


While many consider I'm inbreeding too much - but coming from you, you're statement does not surprise me... While I probably haven't reached/or may never reach the IBC % that you have-- I am breeding for a type and size that is more consistent- and accomplishing some of this thru inbreeding... In doing so- I took advantage of your preachings of many years and took a shortcut and used some of the progeny of Encore and Shoshone Felix 6310 J O D- and the work of several others ... The over 50 years of the Goldens building upon the Cole Creek herd that has thrived for that long in an environment much like ours was another shortcut...  Not sure if I will ever be happy with where I get with the herd- but like I've said many a time- I've never yet seen the perfect cow...
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PostSubject: Re: Tru-line offspring   Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:25 pm

type to type is a mild form of inbreeding...

stop the me preaching BS; reminds me too much of Dennis...

I`ve seen and have several perfect cows; you gotta know what perfect is , to have perfect...and then you have to be able to renew her, and running from here to there trying this and that is one of the poorest ways to accomplish that consistently
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PostSubject: Re: Tru-line offspring   Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:45 am

Most of my Equators were out of TC Dividend daughters as that cross worked great.


so registered breeders are crossbreeders OT? where`s the prepotency in a crossbred? in the temporary illusion of "just right"? but can registered breeders be blamed, when commercial cattlemen don`t demand prepotency? why not?
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PostSubject: Re: Tru-line offspring   Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:40 am

MKeeney wrote:
type to type is a mild form of inbreeding...

stop the me preaching BS; reminds me too much of Dennis...

I`ve seen and have several perfect cows; you gotta know what perfect is , to have perfect...and then you have to be able to renew her, and running from here to there trying this and that is one of the poorest ways to accomplish that consistently

well, I`m hoping that OT describes the perfect cow today... he knows he`s never seen one, therefore, he knows what she should be...

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Oldtimer

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PostSubject: Re: Tru-line offspring   Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:21 pm

MKeeney wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
type to type is a mild form of inbreeding...

stop the me preaching BS; reminds me too much of Dennis...

I`ve seen and have several perfect cows; you gotta know what perfect is , to have perfect...and then you have to be able to renew her, and running from here to there trying this and that is one of the poorest ways to accomplish that consistently

well, I`m hoping that OT  describes the perfect cow today... he knows he`s never seen one, therefore,  he knows what she should be...

If you have several of the "perfect cows"- then you must/should have a whole herd of them-- as the perfect cow should be able to always produce "perfect" offspring...  You've done away with the cull market WinkRazz

One of the problems with perfect is- what is perfect for you- may not be perfect for me... You stress longevity. Where up here in short grass country where teeth go quickly- and 30 below winters can take the life out of an old cow quickly- that is one of the lesser qualifications... Most don't plan on their cows being around until they are able to vote...


Last edited by Oldtimer on Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:42 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Tru-line offspring   Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:39 pm

Here`s a second chance to describe the perfect cow OT...
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PostSubject: Re: Tru-line offspring   Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:44 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Here`s a second chance to describe the perfect cow OT...

One of the problems with perfect is- what is perfect for you- may not be perfect for me... You stress longevity. Where up here in short grass country where teeth go quickly- and 30 below winters can take the life out of an old cow quickly- that is one of the lesser qualifications... Most don't plan on their cows being around until they are able to vote...
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PostSubject: Re: Tru-line offspring   Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:06 pm

maybe the third time will be charm...I`ll settle for the cow description that`s perfect for you...
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PostSubject: Re: Tru-line offspring   Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:34 pm

MKeeney wrote:
maybe the third time will be charm...I`ll settle for the cow description that`s perfect for you...

I haven't found it yet... Everytime I think I have that one- I find some little thing negative- or that I think would make them better... Maybe I'm just more finicky than you are... But I can't describe something I haven't yet seen...Same as I have yet to meet a perfect person- and don't believe such exists either...
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PostSubject: Re: Tru-line offspring   Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:13 pm

Oldtimer wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
maybe the third time will be charm...I`ll settle for the cow description that`s perfect for you...

I haven't found it yet... Everytime I think I have that one- I find some little thing negative- or that I think would make them better... Maybe I'm just more finicky than you are... But I can't describe something I haven't yet seen...Same as I have yet to meet a perfect person- and don't believe such exists either...

Maybe you`re making progress after all OT ...

I have yet to meet a perfect person

That`s your imperfection; not theirs...

]The beginning of love is to let those we love be perfectly themselves, and not to twist them to fit our own image. Otherwise we love only the reflection of ourselves we find in them.
Thomas Merton
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PostSubject: Re: Tru-line offspring   Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:55 am

If you have several of the "perfect cows"- then you must/should have a whole herd of them-- as the perfect cow should be able to always produce "perfect" offspring...

you`re still lost in that world of ignorance created by registered promotion and commotion that the best production cow is also the best parent cow; with no clue of the need of parent stock to make production stock

I have a gut feeling the cow below is a perfect cow...



I`m even more sure that she won`t reproduce herself; so wrong again, OT
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PostSubject: Re: Tru-line offspring   Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:25 am

Oldtimer wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
maybe the third time will be charm...I`ll settle for the cow description that`s perfect for you...

I haven't found it yet... Everytime I think I have that one- I find some little thing negative- or that I think would make them better... Maybe I'm just more finicky than you are... But I can't describe something I haven't yet seen...Same as I have yet to meet a perfect person- and don't believe such exists either...

OT, here is an easier question. Can you describe the bull that sires all of the perfect cows?

And if the perfect cows always produce the "perfect cow" daughters, then why are folks still looking for outcross bulls from thier bloodlines are perfect cows generally uncommon in any herd that has been in business more than 2 cow generations?
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PostSubject: Re: Tru-line offspring   Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:18 am

EddieM wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
maybe the third time will be charm...I`ll settle for the cow description that`s perfect for you...

I haven't found it yet... Everytime I think I have that one- I find some little thing negative- or that I think would make them better... Maybe I'm just more finicky than you are... But I can't describe something I haven't yet seen...Same as I have yet to meet a perfect person- and don't believe such exists either...

OT, here is an easier question. Can you describe the bull that sires all of the perfect cows?

And if the perfect cows always produce the "perfect cow" daughters, then why are folks still looking for outcross bulls from thier bloodlines are perfect cows generally uncommon in any herd that has been in business more than 2 cow generations?

It would be the bull that constantly throws the type of cows I'm looking for-- which since I've never seen- I can't describe for you...Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Tru-line offspring   Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:44 pm

MKeeney wrote:
If you have several of the "perfect cows"- then you must/should have a whole herd of them-- as the perfect cow should be able to always produce "perfect" offspring...

you`re still lost in that world of ignorance created by registered promotion and commotion that the best production cow is also the best parent cow; with no clue of the need of parent stock to make production stock

I have a gut feeling the cow below is a perfect cow...



I`m even more sure that she won`t reproduce herself; so wrong again, OT

Mike, perfect enough. If she was too perfect she would be a freak. The most freakish cattle I have right now are the runty little inbreds, haven't determined if they are freakishly good or freakishly bad. Will be good point of discussion when people come to see them. One had to have a calf cut out of her. He was built square and she is tiny. Once she got home she went and found another heifer's calf to mother. Oh well, too many questions and no guidance at hand, so just blindly stumble along the intuitve path of serendipity. At least I have enough of a population of functional. cattle to pick and choose from. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Tru-line offspring   Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:25 am

I've always heard the perfect cow is the one you never notice.
O'timer makes me dizzy with his post.Sleep 
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PostSubject: Re: Tru-line offspring   Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:35 am

Robert,
As I think about closed herds like Lasater, Wye, Pinebank; it is the "outlier", usually for "growth/performance", that brings the most money...even though the "performance" level pales in comparison to the mainstream of registered cattle...is there any rhyme or reason to this whatsoever?
why wouldn`t the most valuable animal be the most prepotent for the characteristics the herd has been selected for? can prepotency be determined with or without DNA OR PROGENY?
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PostSubject: Re: Tru-line offspring   Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:46 pm

Mike, I don't really know how to answer your questions. I don't sell bulls anymore unless someone finds me and makes me sell to them. I don't register my cattle anymore, I'd rather raise my purebreds...the pedigree is in the name/brand.

As for Lasater philosophy cattle comparing with the rest of the breed, check out isacattleco.com .
From their latest flyer... "L Bar bulls and their progeny comprise an incredible 36% of all performance trait leaders-for the entire breed!" (ranked in the BBU Spring Sire Summary)
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PostSubject: Re: Tru-line offspring   Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:36 pm

RobertMac wrote:
Mike, I don't really know how to answer your questions. I don't sell bulls anymore unless someone finds me and makes me sell to them. I don't register my cattle anymore, I'd rather raise my purebreds...the pedigree is in the name/brand.

As for Lasater philosophy cattle comparing with the rest of the breed, check out isacattleco.com .
From their latest flyer... "L Bar bulls and their progeny comprise an incredible 36% of all performance trait leaders-for the entire breed!" (ranked in the BBU Spring Sire Summary)

Robert,
when they look like an SAV ANGUS,
can they still possess the unique breed characteristics of an original Brangus?

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PostSubject: Re: Tru-line offspring   Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:21 pm

mikek wrote:
it is the "outlier", usually for "growth/performance", that brings the most money...even though the "performance" level pales in comparison to the mainstream of registered cattle...is there any rhyme or reason to this whatsoever
It speaks to the problems of the mainstream that they are wanting to fix.
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