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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:27 pm

The registered mainstream is built upon, and the goal is to have as many want to rustle what you have as possible. Incorrect?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:25 pm

larkota wrote:
PatB wrote:
Can someone please define genetic rustler? Just trying to get my mine around what makes one person a genetic rustler and another a wise breeder.

If you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror.
way harsh , Briann..."genetic rustling" implies stealing...what you buy and pay for, as I`m sure Pat does, and you have done, is certainly not rustling/stealing...OT has, in big jimmer fashion, created a straw man argument, that has confused the basics of this term "genetic rustling"...everyone has to buy "genetics" somewhere, sometime... if you sell based on someone elses reputation, which we all have done, it`s more of a "reputation sponging" than rustling...hopefully, and we are trying, that each breeder here will someday create a population he will put his own name on...until then, I don`t think one has accomplished much as a breeder, but he certainly is no thief...

here`s a genetic rustler true story example...
con man C, knowing he has no chance of buying anything from breeder B, hears of semen on one of B`s bulls from a third party 3...C buys the semen, breeds his cows, gets calves, decides to register calves, needs ai certs...calls breeder B, who refuses C certificates, since they have no working relationship or agreement etc...
C calls AAA, who implies to B, to supply C with certificates or they, AAA, will...

moral of story...three cons and one breeder....

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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:15 am

MKeeney wrote:
larkota wrote:
PatB wrote:
Can someone please define genetic rustler? Just trying to get my mine around what makes one person a genetic rustler and another a wise breeder.

If you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror.
way harsh , Briann..."genetic rustling" implies stealing...what you buy and pay for, as I`m sure Pat does, and you have done, is certainly not rustling/stealing...OT has, in big jimmer fashion, created a straw man argument, that has confused the basics of this term "genetic rustling"...everyone has to buy "genetics" somewhere, sometime... if you sell based on someone elses reputation, which we all have done, it`s more of a "reputation sponging" than rustling...hopefully, and we are trying, that each breeder here will someday create a population he will put his own name on...until then, I don`t think one has accomplished much as a breeder, but he certainly is no thief...

here`s a genetic rustler true story example...
con man C, knowing he has no chance of buying anything from breeder B, hears of semen on one of B`s bulls from a third party 3...C buys the semen, breeds his cows, gets calves, decides to register calves, needs ai certs...calls breeder B, who refuses C certificates, since they have no working relationship or agreement etc...
C calls AAA, who implies to B, to supply C with certificates or they, AAA, will...

moral of story...three cons and one breeder....


not sorry MK. at this place harsh pays the bills, not honey.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:21 pm

instead of harsh; I should have said mis-applied...
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Oldtimer

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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:24 pm

MKeeney wrote:
larkota wrote:
PatB wrote:
Can someone please define genetic rustler? Just trying to get my mine around what makes one person a genetic rustler and another a wise breeder.

If you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror.
way harsh , Briann..."genetic rustling" implies stealing...what you buy and pay for, as I`m sure Pat does, and you have done, is certainly not rustling/stealing...OT has, in big jimmer fashion, created a straw man argument, that has confused the basics of this term "genetic rustling"...everyone has to buy "genetics" somewhere, sometime... if you sell based on someone elses reputation, which we all have done, it`s more of a "reputation sponging" than rustling...hopefully, and we are trying, that each breeder here will someday create a population he will put his own name on...until then, I don`t think one has accomplished much as a breeder, but he certainly is no thief...

here`s a genetic rustler true story example...
con man C, knowing he has no chance of buying anything from breeder B, hears of semen on one of B`s bulls from a third party 3...C buys the semen, breeds his cows, gets calves, decides to register calves, needs ai certs...calls breeder B, who refuses C certificates, since they have no working relationship or agreement etc...
C calls AAA, who implies to B, to supply C with certificates or they, AAA, will...

moral of story...three cons and one breeder....



Wasn't breeder B named "Greedy Paranoia Breeder " in one article I read a couple of years ago after this incident happened? Wink
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:36 pm

Oldtimer wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
larkota wrote:
PatB wrote:
Can someone please define genetic rustler? Just trying to get my mine around what makes one person a genetic rustler and another a wise breeder.

If you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror.
way harsh , Briann..."genetic rustling" implies stealing...what you buy and pay for, as I`m sure Pat does, and you have done, is certainly not rustling/stealing...OT has, in big jimmer fashion, created a straw man argument, that has confused the basics of this term "genetic rustling"...everyone has to buy "genetics" somewhere, sometime... if you sell based on someone elses reputation, which we all have done, it`s more of a "reputation sponging" than rustling...hopefully, and we are trying, that each breeder here will someday create a population he will put his own name on...until then, I don`t think one has accomplished much as a breeder, but he certainly is no thief...

here`s a genetic rustler true story example...
con man C, knowing he has no chance of buying anything from breeder B, hears of semen on one of B`s bulls from a third party 3...C buys the semen, breeds his cows, gets calves, decides to register calves, needs ai certs...calls breeder B, who refuses C certificates, since they have no working relationship or agreement etc...
C calls AAA, who implies to B, to supply C with certificates or they, AAA, will...

moral of story...three cons and one breeder....



Wasn't breeder B named "Greedy Paranoia Breeder " in one article I read a couple of years ago after this incident happened? Wink

that`s a different incident; that one was mis-applied and mis-interupted by most everyone, including me, except the orginator of the term, Greg Golden....none the less, the moment of infamy wasn`t all bad...I`ve yet to have any request for $1000 cvertificates; maybe they are holding up using their Felix semen until I die ; so they can get any extra certs needed from AAA for $10; average out that $500/straw semen cost of getting those rare and valuable calves Very Happy Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:44 pm

Kent Powell wrote:
The registered mainstream is built upon, and the goal is to have as many want to rustle what you have as possible. Incorrect?

Pretty intriguing isn't it Kent. I'm just happy to have coined a term that has turned out to be controversial. Like many things, such as humor, it gets its essence of gravity from truth. Many years ago it began to emerge that there was such a thing as genetic rustling for me. Most of it for me had a lot to do with Shoshone Angus and the many visits and converstions with LL. The crap really hit the fan for me when I was told that a very well known registered breeder had stopped to look at Shoshone Angus cattle, finding nobody home he went snooping for himself. After spending the greater part of an afternoon snooping through LL's cattle he reported to many people about what he had seen. Now, over the years people become very curious about what the cattle look like in a linebred/inbred program. Since they don't have the brains, the guts or the means themselves, they like to go see the great scientist and his laboratory. Well you know what laboratories look like. They're private. They're vessels of the soul. I've had people call for a visit who wanted to look at my own "little wet toe genetic experiments". Coming up to a cow bred a certain way, ooh, aah, wow, would you price her. At the end of the drive before they leave you price the list of cows they named. They turn red with frustration when they hear the prices and say they can't afford a cow like that, any of them. And I think when this starts to happen over and over and over, not for me but for someone like LL, it starts to bring a certain level of concern. Mainstream cattle are a dime a dozen all across the country. There's no genetic rustlers to speak of and if there are, they all land at the same hot spots each year with enough money to buy what they're looking for or buy into a partnership, or puchase a fraction, whatever it might be. All of that is available and well priced and accessible. There are very few genetic programs with the stature of Shoshone Angus. This stature is made up of an entire lifetime working and breeding Angus cattle. An entire lifetime. It's not much different than a big group of trophy mule deer bucks that you've protected and managed over many years, occassionally allowing someone to harvest an individual from the population. And then one day the best breeding buck is shot from the road on private property, feverishly drug back to the highway, loaded up and taken off with. Having had no permission to enter private property or harvest the animal. On these ranches and farms we spend 365 days out of the year, good weather, bad weather, good times, tough times. And then lo and behold some guy wants your ranch for free and one of your trophy deer for just one day. Afterall, I get the ranch for 365 days and he just wants a free day, doesn't have to pay any taxes, expenses etc. I have effing had it with all flavors of violation of private property, whether it's genetics, or access across private land, or flying planes low to the ground or whatever.

DV....with more to say on this as time allows
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:50 pm

I look at genetic rustling with a little broader brush. Folks use one or two bulls from a named herd or buy a cow from a "name" and they think that they can advertise that they are breeding the same genetics as the original herd(s). All they have is a fraction, a sliver, a roll of the dice to have a minority of that foundation's herd genetic influence in their herd. Much less do they admit that they threw the genes from two separate sources together, tumbled them around, unarranged and matching pairs and started the who selection process all over again at square one. I never see it that I am expanding someone's herd or flock. What I do is use the genetics as they are and then the environment and I sort them out to fit on our little dry clay ridge. It only starts the process of using those offspring which "fit" as a basis to sort for the good that I hoped that the new animal(s) brought in while hopefully eliminating all of the other undesired things that came along with the good.

The knowledge of the seed stock sources are good information for a potential buyer but for somebody like me to act like the other folk's names back in the pedigree adds value to my animals without the animals supplying a needed function or functions for either me or a potential buyer is just a misuse of words and labels. So, I think that "name rustling" falls into the same bucket of slop.

EddieM: I support this ad. Thank you for your time and please vote for me in November 2012.
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:52 pm

We put 2000 miles on 2 vehicles in the 2 weeks of rifle season patroling for poachers, trespassers, and the just looking whopper tellers. Only a couple nasty SOB's. One who must have an invalid tag from every state and changes often. One who claimed the former landowner gave him permission to hunt. It has only been 28 years since we bought the place we cought him. We did not get a deer this year. My daughter wanted to get her first as did her friend. Our leese's got 1, paid for 8. The poachers got at least one. A monster double drop tine we have followed for several years. Someone left off a dog or two. I guess they wanted them to have a good country home. My youngest said those darn hunters are messing up his Christmas and he wanted to punch them in the mouth. That pretty much sums it up for me too.
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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:24 am

Kent Powell wrote:
We put 2000 miles on 2 vehicles in the 2 weeks of rifle season patroling for poachers, trespassers, and the just looking whopper tellers. Only a couple nasty SOB's. One who must have an invalid tag from every state and changes often. One who claimed the former landowner gave him permission to hunt. It has only been 28 years since we bought the place we cought him. We did not get a deer this year. My daughter wanted to get her first as did her friend. Our leese's got 1, paid for 8. The poachers got at least one. A monster double drop tine we have followed for several years. Someone left off a dog or two. I guess they wanted them to have a good country home. My youngest said those darn hunters are messing up his Christmas and he wanted to punch them in the mouth. That pretty much sums it up for me too.

I feel your pain Kent. We had one calf shot in the ass! Twice the house got shot at and once right in front of the game warden he wrote the dumb ass a ticket and then he gave him back his unloaded gun he loaded it and put it back in the pickup, so he wrote him another ticket. Laughing We found a good deterrent to poachers. My youngest son is 6'6 and weighs 230 he went out on the 4 wheeler with two 45's tucked in his belt and a AR-15 and asked three guys just what the F*** they thought they were doing on his land. About two days later the sheriff came buy and said some locals came by and told him that people might not want to go hunting up our way as that big kid that never talks much was a bit pissed about them being in the middle of his field. The sheriff left several no hunting signs and asked if we would put them up. That was the last of the hunters we saw.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:28 pm

PatB wrote:
DV

6141 has tested clean for nh, ca, m1 and d2. AM test still pending or AAA messed up on request. It is cheaper to test the bull then all of his progeny. Very Happy My management decision on my herd is that all bulls used will be tested clean or descend from tested clean ancestors on both sides of am, nh, ca, m1 and d2 going forward.

tested clean for am as well Very Happy Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:36 pm

What other hoops you want this old bull to jump threeooouuoouu PatB? DV.. guessing Mr. Diamond must of submited him for all the AAA x#*&^%$#@!?><.
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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:45 pm

When he was just a baby his dam (3141) forced him to take a bath every day in the stock tank, so he has been a clean bull all his life and his pedigree is made up of 98% "con-veen-e-ince traits" + his harvested steers taste just like "beef" but so do longhorn cattle. DV.. producing genetic rustler product insight.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:48 am

Dennis Voss wrote:
What other hoops you want this old bull to jump threeooouuoouu PatB? DV.. guessing Mr. Diamond must of submited him for all the AAA x#*&^%$#@!?><.

settle 17 more cows to AI on this place would be a good start. Very Happy Very Happy . I tested him to stay in the farm policy of using tested clean bulls or bulls whose ancestors tested clean on both sides of the pedigree.
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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:25 am

PatB wrote:
Dennis Voss wrote:
What other hoops you want this old bull to jump threeooouuoouu PatB? DV.. guessing Mr. Diamond must of submited him for all the AAA x#*&^%$#@!?><.

settle 17 more cows to AI on this place would be a good start. Very Happy Very Happy . I tested him to stay in the farm policy of using tested clean bulls or bulls whose ancestors tested clean on both sides of the pedigree.

I'm confused Pat B. You tested the bull and not Mr. Dimond? None of this matters to me although I do appreciate your eccentricities. In a lot of ways Pat B, you amuse the hell out of me. The 2 of us are so damn different from each other including our environments. I think it's great you're going to use the bull. There's no genetic rustling to it. The only people not allowed to buy semen on this bull are past, known genetic rustlers, but you know they'll find a way to get their hands on some. They always do. Remember one thing Pat B about genetic rustlers. In the end they all fail to breed a decent, significant herd of cattle. Instead of breeding a great herd of cattle they're about rarity, fast dollars and 15 second superstars.

DV....plum pleased about all the genetic testing going on up in Maine
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:45 am

Mr Dimond is Mrs Dimond's worry not mine. Very Happy Very Happy I am hoping to get a some heifers out of 6141 and a potential herd sire would be good.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:39 am

PatB wrote:
Dennis Voss wrote:
What other hoops you want this old bull to jump threeooouuoouu PatB? DV.. guessing Mr. Diamond must of submited him for all the AAA x#*&^%$#@!?><.

settle 17 more cows to AI on this place would be a good start. Very Happy Very Happy . I tested him to stay in the farm policy of using tested clean bulls or bulls whose ancestors tested clean on both sides of the pedigree.

"genetically-clean broadbase" breeding plan. PatB is "Mr. Clean"!Laughing
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:56 am

PatB wrote:
Dennis Voss wrote:
What other hoops you want this old bull to jump threeooouuoouu PatB? DV.. guessing Mr. Diamond must of submited him for all the AAA x#*&^%$#@!?><.

settle 17 more cows to AI on this place would be a good start. Very Happy Very Happy . I tested him to stay in the farm policy of using tested clean bulls or bulls whose ancestors tested clean on both sides of the pedigree.

Pat, who sets "farm policy"? Is there a committee? A board of directors? Or is it just you?

TD
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:49 am

Is the definition of tested clean limited to the interpretation of the lab?
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MVCatt



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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:27 pm

Pat, after all of your on farm policy standards are met and you use 6141...what direction will you go next? Why did you decide to use this bull anyway?
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:45 pm

MVCatt wrote:
Pat, after all of your on farm policy standards are met and you use 6141...what direction will you go next? Why did you decide to use this bull anyway?
Maybe Future Direction? or it'll be time for a New Design Very Happy
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:11 pm

When you get out of Focus, go the wrong Direction, and need a functional Design, You need some Stability.
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