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PatB



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PostSubject: genetic rustler??   Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:56 am

Can someone please define genetic rustler? Just trying to get my mine around what makes one person a genetic rustler and another a wise breeder.
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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:37 am

I can't see you becoming a genetic rustler PatB as I've come to know you on the "trail" DV... handing one over to the sheriff as we speak
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:22 pm

DV

6141 has tested clean for nh, ca, m1 and d2. AM test still pending or AAA messed up on request. It is cheaper to test the bull then all of his progeny. Very Happy My management decision on my herd is that all bulls used will be tested clean or descend from tested clean ancestors on both sides of am, nh, ca, m1 and d2 going forward.
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:10 pm

PatB wrote:
DV

6141 has tested clean for nh, ca, m1 and d2. AM test still pending or AAA messed up on request. It is cheaper to test the bull then all of his progeny. Very Happy My management decision on my herd is that all bulls used will be tested clean or descend from tested clean ancestors on both sides of am, nh, ca, m1 and d2 going forward.

how do you test for problems that can't be seen on a blood card?

is it cheaper to use someone else's tested cattle then just use your own?

Larkota just asking.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:41 pm

larkota wrote:
PatB wrote:
DV

6141 has tested clean for nh, ca, m1 and d2. AM test still pending or AAA messed up on request. It is cheaper to test the bull then all of his progeny. Very Happy My management decision on my herd is that all bulls used will be tested clean or descend from tested clean ancestors on both sides of am, nh, ca, m1 and d2 going forward.

how do you test for problems that can't be seen on a blood card?

is it cheaper to use someone else's tested cattle then just use your own?

Larkota just asking.

Correct me if I am wrong. I believe you have bought in outside bulls in the last few years. Have you closed your herd to all outside genetics and will only use the genetics currently in your herd?

It is not cheaper to use someone else's genetics than your own but allows you to use genetics that may compliment your own breeding and move you closer to your ideal cow. Every walking herd sire used on this farm now and in the future will be born on this farm from one of my cows that traces back to 8 foundations females.

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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:20 am

PatB wrote:
larkota wrote:
PatB wrote:
DV

6141 has tested clean for nh, ca, m1 and d2. AM test still pending or AAA messed up on request. It is cheaper to test the bull then all of his progeny. Very Happy My management decision on my herd is that all bulls used will be tested clean or descend from tested clean ancestors on both sides of am, nh, ca, m1 and d2 going forward.

how do you test for problems that can't be seen on a blood card?

is it cheaper to use someone else's tested cattle then just use your own?

Larkota just asking.

Correct me if I am wrong. I believe you have bought in outside bulls in the last few years. Have you closed your herd to all outside genetics and will only use the genetics currently in your herd?

It is not cheaper to use someone else's genetics than your own but allows you to use genetics that may compliment your own breeding and move you closer to your ideal cow. Every walking herd sire used on this farm now and in the future will be born on this farm from one of my cows that traces back to 8 foundations females.



When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.


Larkota, thinking walking herd sires from AI still dont make them mine....no matter how far I can trace a dam cow.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:54 am

larkota wrote:
PatB wrote:
larkota wrote:
PatB wrote:
DV

6141 has tested clean for nh, ca, m1 and d2. AM test still pending or AAA messed up on request. It is cheaper to test the bull then all of his progeny. Very Happy My management decision on my herd is that all bulls used will be tested clean or descend from tested clean ancestors on both sides of am, nh, ca, m1 and d2 going forward.

how do you test for problems that can't be seen on a blood card?

is it cheaper to use someone else's tested cattle then just use your own?

Larkota just asking.

Correct me if I am wrong. I believe you have bought in outside bulls in the last few years. Have you closed your herd to all outside genetics and will only use the genetics currently in your herd?

It is not cheaper to use someone else's genetics than your own but allows you to use genetics that may compliment your own breeding and move you closer to your ideal cow. Every walking herd sire used on this farm now and in the future will be born on this farm from one of my cows that traces back to 8 foundations females.



When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.


Larkota, thinking walking herd sires from AI still dont make them mine....no matter how far I can trace a dam cow.

Walking herd sire bought in still does not make them your breeding either. Either you close your herd to all outside genetics and then decide how many generations must pass before the cattle are your breeding but the foundation of the herd is still some elses breeding. If they are born on this farm they are of my breeding regardless if the sire of the animals was AI or natural.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:55 pm

PatB wrote:
larkota wrote:
PatB wrote:
DV

6141 has tested clean for nh, ca, m1 and d2. AM test still pending or AAA messed up on request. It is cheaper to test the bull then all of his progeny. Very Happy My management decision on my herd is that all bulls used will be tested clean or descend from tested clean ancestors on both sides of am, nh, ca, m1 and d2 going forward.

how do you test for problems that can't be seen on a blood card?

is it cheaper to use someone else's tested cattle then just use your own?

Larkota just asking.

Correct me if I am wrong. I believe you have bought in outside bulls in the last few years. Have you closed your herd to all outside genetics and will only use the genetics currently in your herd?

It is not cheaper to use someone else's genetics than your own but allows you to use genetics that may compliment your own breeding and move you closer to your ideal cow. Every walking herd sire used on this farm now and in the future will be born on this farm from one of my cows that traces back to 8 foundations females.



8 foundations females.
Pat, foundation???? females???
please go to the interactive part of the log in AAA page...under inbreeding and relationships, type in a current calf and the so -called foundation female in his pedigree, and post the relationship...
if the house above the foundation, has had had 7 different style changes, does anyone give a damn what the foundation was?

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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:20 am

MKeeney wrote:
PatB wrote:
larkota wrote:
PatB wrote:
DV

6141 has tested clean for nh, ca, m1 and d2. AM test still pending or AAA messed up on request. It is cheaper to test the bull then all of his progeny. Very Happy My management decision on my herd is that all bulls used will be tested clean or descend from tested clean ancestors on both sides of am, nh, ca, m1 and d2 going forward.

how do you test for problems that can't be seen on a blood card?

is it cheaper to use someone else's tested cattle then just use your own?

Larkota just asking.

Correct me if I am wrong. I believe you have bought in outside bulls in the last few years. Have you closed your herd to all outside genetics and will only use the genetics currently in your herd?

It is not cheaper to use someone else's genetics than your own but allows you to use genetics that may compliment your own breeding and move you closer to your ideal cow. Every walking herd sire used on this farm now and in the future will be born on this farm from one of my cows that traces back to 8 foundations females.



8 foundations females.
Pat, foundation???? females???
please go to the interactive part of the log in AAA page...under inbreeding and relationships, type in a current calf and the so -called foundation female in his pedigree, and post the relationship...
if the house above the foundation, has had had 7 different style changes, does anyone give a damn what the foundation was?


the 8 foundation females have left descendants in the herd of 20 plus registered females we started with. One of these cow lines maybe extinct before the end of next year.

The foundation is the most important part of any structure. If the foundation isn't solid then the looks of the structure does not matter because it will not stand the test of time.

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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:58 am

Quote :
The foundation is the most important part of any structure. If the foundation isn't solid then the looks of the structure does not matter because it will not stand the test of time.

The foundation of a building is usually covered by the building. Try living in a house without walls and a roof and then brag on the foundation. You do know why they put headboards on a bed, don't you? It is to keep your head from rolling behind the bed while you sleep! Laughing

So, Pat, you do not think that the approximate 50% that you bring in by frozen straw makes a big deal, ... then why bring it in?

Genetic rustler question: do you ever brag or make a point to mention the names or sources of the bulls in the frozen straws when you talk cattle or compare cattle? Are the names more important than the cattle? Are your foundation cattle better than their influcences in your herd? It might be a slippery slope to a life of crime!
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:15 am

EddieM wrote:
Quote :
The foundation is the most important part of any structure. If the foundation isn't solid then the looks of the structure does not matter because it will not stand the test of time.

The foundation of a building is usually covered by the building. Try living in a house without walls and a roof and then brag on the foundation. You do know why they put headboards on a bed, don't you? It is to keep your head from rolling behind the bed while you sleep! Laughing

So, Pat, you do not think that the approximate 50% that you bring in by frozen straw makes a big deal, ... then why bring it in?

Genetic rustler question: do you ever brag or make a point to mention the names or sources of the bulls in the frozen straws when you talk cattle or compare cattle? Are the names more important than the cattle? Are your foundation cattle better than their influcences in your herd? It might be a slippery slope to a life of crime!

The Facade of a building only makes it look pretty or not, the foundation and structure of the building is what counts.

Yes I mention names of the bulls used as I have several bull customers that who want a son of a certian AI bull for future herd sire. If the animal is not good enough to be used in my herd then it is beef regardless of breeding. The foundation cows have left descendants that work and the contemparies did not that is why they are foundation cows not some forgotten cow.


How many years has your herd been closed to new genetics? If you have you brought in new genetics in the last 10 years if so why?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:34 pm

PatB wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
PatB wrote:
larkota wrote:
PatB wrote:
DV

6141 has tested clean for nh, ca, m1 and d2. AM test still pending or AAA messed up on request. It is cheaper to test the bull then all of his progeny. Very Happy My management decision on my herd is that all bulls used will be tested clean or descend from tested clean ancestors on both sides of am, nh, ca, m1 and d2 going forward.

how do you test for problems that can't be seen on a blood card?

is it cheaper to use someone else's tested cattle then just use your own?

Larkota just asking.

Correct me if I am wrong. I believe you have bought in outside bulls in the last few years. Have you closed your herd to all outside genetics and will only use the genetics currently in your herd?

It is not cheaper to use someone else's genetics than your own but allows you to use genetics that may compliment your own breeding and move you closer to your ideal cow. Every walking herd sire used on this farm now and in the future will be born on this farm from one of my cows that traces back to 8 foundations females.



8 foundations females.
Pat, foundation???? females???
please go to the interactive part of the log in AAA page...under inbreeding and relationships, type in a current calf and the so -called foundation female in his pedigree, and post the relationship...
if the house above the foundation, has had had 7 different style changes, does anyone give a damn what the foundation was?


the 8 foundation females have left descendants in the herd of 20 plus registered females we started with. One of these cow lines maybe extinct before the end of next year.

The foundation is the most important part of any structure. If the foundation isn't solid then the looks of the structure does not matter because it will not stand the test of time.

you don`t have any foundation left if you wash all the ingredients away with a steady stream of unrelated and more than likely even dis-similiar bulls on top of the beginning cows...
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:43 pm

Quote :
and structure

Building with dissimilar materials sounds like Johnny Cash's hit "One Piece at a Time". Why discuss structure now? I thought that you premised that the building's FOUNDATION is the key. The inbetween is just fluff. Long time ago relatives that we want to discuss is what makes a cow or a bull. The sire is just a far, far distant relative. The home-raised mother is a very very close relative; almost as kin as the maternal g-g-g-g grandma. Hum-m-m-m? What next?

So, Pat, what is your definition of genetic rustling? Question
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:50 pm

Eddiem I ask this questions above and you did not answer so please answer the question.

How many years has your herd been closed to new genetics? If you have you brought in new genetics in the last 10 years if so why?

Mike I would be interested in your response to the questions also.

Other readers please feel free to answer the questions above. Very Happy Very Happy
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:52 pm

EddieM wrote:
Quote :
and structure

Building with dissimilar materials sounds like Johnny Cash's hit "One Piece at a Time". Why discuss structure now? I thought that you premised that the building's FOUNDATION is the key. The inbetween is just fluff. Long time ago relatives that we want to discuss is what makes a cow or a bull. The sire is just a far, far distant relative. The home-raised mother is a very very close relative; almost as kin as the maternal g-g-g-g grandma. Hum-m-m-m? What next?

So, Pat, what is your definition of genetic rustling? Question

I do not have a definition of genetic rustling.
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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:30 pm

PatB wrote:
Eddiem I ask this questions above and you did not answer so please answer the question.

How many years has your herd been closed to new genetics? If you have you brought in new genetics in the last 10 years if so why?

Mike I would be interested in your response to the questions also.

Other readers please feel free to answer the questions above. Very Happy Very Happy

rustler someone who steals farm animals............ In this case Genetic Rustler. ...... Someone that claims someone else's genetics to be his or her own. Pat i could give a rat's ass if you use a different bull from some sale every year but if you promote that bull's offspring as Your KA cattle or your larkota cattle then you are a genetic rustler you have stolen there name reputation and so forth for your financial gain. hence the phrase GENETIC RUSTLER This in not a hanging offense, But could be called a lynching offense in certain circles, as some would believe, It is a ethical issue only talked about on KC. That is my definition of a Genetic Rustler as I see it.


Last edited by W.T on Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MVCatt



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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:08 pm

Genetic rustling...genetic defects...who the hell cares? If you follow Larry's model they both become a non issue. Why do we have to complicate everything? Get rid of the papers...they become just cows...kinda like the one's I rode through at Red Lodge in August. Breed closer bred maternal units...and sooner or later the ones that are left will be defect free. Outcross or crossbreed for performance, you can use whatever bull you want, even a carrier, and your cows will be fine. See how easy that is?

MV...smartest kid in the dumb class.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:04 pm

PatB wrote:
Eddiem I ask this questions above and you did not answer so please answer the question.

How many years has your herd been closed to new genetics? If you have you brought in new genetics in the last 10 years if so why?

Mike I would be interested in your response to the questions also.

Other readers please feel free to answer the questions above. Very Happy Very Happy
my herd has not been closed long enough to matter; never will be closed long enough to matter in my lifetime...but, I have a lineage that has continuity of relationship and consistent selection for more than 20 years...that cow was born in 1980, and would appear numerous times in a pedigree...closed herd doesn`t create "foundation" cows, putting the same cow in a pedigree many times would be the only way to build from a "foundation"...
foundation cow is a sale manager creation; something to fill space in a footnote...
give me a pedigree that traces to one of the 8 beginning cows; and we`ll see if you thought enough of them to build a foundation with them...


foun·da·tion
1.support for building: a part of a building, usually below the ground, that transfers and distributes the weight of the building onto the ground

be·gin·ning
1.first part: the first part or early stages of something


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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:24 pm

PatB wrote:

The foundation is the most important part of any structure. If the foundation isn't solid then the looks of the structure does not matter because it will not stand the test of time.



Pat, I don't think that analogy works here. With every successive generation, the influence of your "foundation" decreases by half, so the concept of a vertical building resting on a sturdy, constant foundation doesn't jive. I would offer you the alternate analogy of a mobile home park, where new trailers are constantly being placed at the front of the community, while the older mobile homes fade into the back of the park. The more consistent the type and style of trailers added over time, the more aesthetically pleasing the community.

TD
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:33 pm

Tom D wrote:
PatB wrote:

The foundation is the most important part of any structure. If the foundation isn't solid then the looks of the structure does not matter because it will not stand the test of time.



Pat, I don't think that analogy works here. With every successive generation, the influence of your "foundation" decreases by half, so the concept of a vertical building resting on a sturdy, constant foundation doesn't jive. I would offer you the alternate analogy of a mobile home park, where new trailers are constantly being placed at the front of the community, while the older mobile homes fade into the back of the park. The more consistent the type and style of trailers added over time, the more aesthetically pleasing the community.

TD
maybe another analogy is sitting on a one cow stool...
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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:56 pm

MVCatt wrote:
Genetic rustling...genetic defects...who the hell cares? If you follow Larry's model they both become a non issue. Why do we have to complicate everything? Get rid of the papers...they become just cows...kinda like the one's I rode through at Red Lodge in August. Breed closer bred maternal units...and sooner or later the ones that are left will be defect free. Outcross or crossbreed for performance, you can use whatever bull you want, even a carrier, and your cows will be fine. See how easy that is?

MV...smartest kid in the dumb class.

Whoa........... Hold on here Chris that is way too dam easy? No registry to pay your dues to ? No 50k test to pay for? Now just hold on you are squeezing all the juice outta the Orange before everyone can get there share of your orange. Have you not got a sense of fair play or what. Remember the importance of those test's they can prevent you from buying a Bull that will have his milk fall from a +28 to a -5 in just two short seasons. Hell you might even be able to tell just who is the father of the neighbors kids. Now come on Chris have a heart it is almost christmas. Laughing Laughing Laughing
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MVCatt



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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:55 pm

Wayne, Merry Christmas to everyone at Advantage because I didn't post it over there...and that's how they like it. Wink
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:55 pm

PatB wrote:
Eddiem I ask this questions above and you did not answer so please answer the question.

How many years has your herd been closed to new genetics? If you have you brought in new genetics in the last 10 years if so why?

Mike I would be interested in your response to the questions also.

Other readers please feel free to answer the questions above. Very Happy Very Happy

Pat, This year I used a black bull to breed black cows. I used white rams to breed white ewes. I'm happy. They are what I wanted to use. I know my environment. I know my feeding options. I know what I want them to do. I know their general backgrounds. There is a plan for how I'll build lines, cross lines, and cull lines as needed. The present and the future animals will tell me about the past that I cannot see or know. If I name names to name names then I fall into rustling and my white hat gets swapped out for a black hat and I'll have my picture on the wall of all of the cattle blog post offices. Your questions are great optional questions for anyone who wants to deal with such but I will let it go at that.
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:50 am

PatB wrote:
Can someone please define genetic rustler? Just trying to get my mine around what makes one person a genetic rustler and another a wise breeder.

If you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: genetic rustler??   Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:55 pm

Over the last year I have defined a new concept that I've titled "genetic rustlers". As the original author of this concept I take full responsibility for the implications it shall involve itself in, both legally and ethically. As usual Keeney's Corner, which is a reflective and futuristic view of cattle breeding from outside the registered mainstream, leads the way on a new concept, but a very old problem. At various points in this thread, I will be asking various parties for help in explaining their role in the facilitation of genetic rustling.

Genetic rustling is when someone does not deal directly with a breeder in an open genetic dialogue, but tries to go behind their back to gain access to a certain genetic value for their own profit and marketeering and agrandizing. It involves insidious activities such as secretive violations of private property rights by entering cow pastures uninvited and without permission to seek information to eventually use against the owner and for their profit. It seems many genetic rustlers are obsessive and plagued with a compulsive drive to own a certain genetic package that can be proven with a pedigree. In the past I have received multiple phone calls and messages from known genetic rustlers which exhibit their compulsive behavior problems. Genetic rustlers often use the excuse that they are very driven to get what they want. I believe they are driven by greed and a lack of confidence in their own ability to breed superior cattle.
Dennis Voss, Box 297, Two Dot, Montana, 59085

http://www.keeneyscorner.com/t194-genetic-rustlers?highlight=genetic+rustler#4271
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