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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:56 pm

Bob H wrote:
WT I agree 4 headed for 5 is probably the most productive cow. The reason that I live in Hammett Idaho is the coldest recorded temp in 25 years is 14 below and that is cold enough for me. When I left Challis Idaho 28 years ago it had been 54 below and I said to hell with this and moved. Bob H

Spent a winter there. And only one you get in those Mountains and places never see the sun for 4 months or more. And then with the river the fog just wont leave. One was enough. but then i have seen -48 here and i don'rt wish that on anyone, the elevation here has a way of making things miserable as it does in Jordan Valley. But hell i live in Gods country Bob no one else wants it.
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mikejd4020



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PostSubject: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:58 pm

Makes sense as to why they wiegh that much.
Mike
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:46 am

I've decided that if I want to put more feed or money in a heifer I'm better off feeding her after she has her first calf to at least get some of the money back in either a higher % rebreed or a little more calf weight. Otherwise, I am willing to let as many as "want to" to fall out early due to growth, not breeding or whatever with the pastures I can offer. Not a "rough it mentality" just what I have to offer.
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:53 pm

It helped tremendously to quit allowing visits from mainstreamers who introduce terminology and try to put me in a group. Since when is expecting an animal to harvest their own feed and balance their own ration their responsibility Roughing them? I guess since the term became popular but means something different to everyone.

The most extremely roughed through heifers I have ever observed with the most terrible breeding rates I have heard of was in expensive pens, deep mud, professionally balanced rations, hired help out the wazoo. It must have been the genetics.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:09 am

Why not run the heifers the same as the cows in one large group? If the a heifer(s) fails to breed she makes a nice payout coupon. I will seperate the heifers from the cows after breeding season this year and feed them a better quality hay for 30 some days. I will use the BIOPRYN blood preg test at the 30 days after pulling bull and sell all opens as long yearlings for good money. The pregnant heifers will go back in the cow herd for their productive live.
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Angus 62



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:48 am

The danger in roughing your heifers is that the best ones (the ones with the highest $B, YW EPD, etc) may fall apart. Sad
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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:34 am

Angus 62 wrote:
The danger in roughing your heifers is that the best ones (the ones with the highest $B, YW EPD, etc) may fall apart. Sad

Laughing Laughing
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:44 am

PatB wrote:
Why not run the heifers the same as the cows in one large group?
Because their nutritional needs are different? Don't think the little weaned heifer calves here would fare too well wintering on dormant pasture that has been ungrazed all season through a foot of snow. Sounds too farao for me.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:13 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
PatB wrote:
Why not run the heifers the same as the cows in one large group?
Because their nutritional needs are different? Don't think the little weaned heifer calves here would fare too well wintering on dormant pasture that has been ungrazed all season through a foot of snow. Sounds too farao for me.

GF

If the heifer is of breeding age and size as the case of mine then they can compete with the cows for hay and grass. In your case where the heifers are alot younger then seperating and feeding a better ration makes sense. The management/time of year and feed resources would be a major factor in how heifers are handled. I am in the process of adapting the herd to my management style and feed resources and expect a higher failure rate of breeding then if I was breediing during lush pasture in spring summer.
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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:39 pm

Getting fall calving cows bred is as easy as falling off a whiskey barrel.


Getting fall calving heifers bred without supplement is as easy as getting Mike and df to agree on why there is a whiskey barrel.


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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:05 pm

Grass Farmer I agree if those young cattle have to fight much snow all of the energy needs will be swallowed up fighting cold and snow. Every enviroment is different. What lived there before people started to graze the area?
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:42 pm

Bob H wrote:
What lived there before people started to graze the area?

Buffalo used to live here. Haven't seen any people grazing yet - maybe using the other kind of grass? Laughing
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Oldtimer

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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:26 pm

PatB wrote:
Why not run the heifers the same as the cows in one large group? If the a heifer(s) fails to breed she makes a nice payout coupon. I will seperate the heifers from the cows after breeding season this year and feed them a better quality hay for 30 some days. I will use the BIOPRYN blood preg test at the 30 days after pulling bull and sell all opens as long yearlings for good money. The pregnant heifers will go back in the cow herd for their productive live.

I agree PatB... My replacements came off the cows Nov. 1- were fed good hay til the 24th of Nov-- then thrown back out on pasture with the cows where they are now... And when I have to start feeding- they will get fed right with the cows... Been doing that for about 8 years now- and its been working plumb fine...
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:47 pm

Oldtimer wrote:
PatB wrote:
Why not run the heifers the same as the cows in one large group? If the a heifer(s) fails to breed she makes a nice payout coupon. I will seperate the heifers from the cows after breeding season this year and feed them a better quality hay for 30 some days. I will use the BIOPRYN blood preg test at the 30 days after pulling bull and sell all opens as long yearlings for good money. The pregnant heifers will go back in the cow herd for their productive live.

I agree PatB... My replacements came off the cows Nov. 1- were fed good hay til the 24th of Nov-- then thrown back out on pasture with the cows where they are now... And when I have to start feeding- they will get fed right with the cows... Been doing that for about 8 years now- and its been working plumb fine...

I guess your climatic conditions aren't as tough as you make them out to be then.
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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:48 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
PatB wrote:
Why not run the heifers the same as the cows in one large group? If the a heifer(s) fails to breed she makes a nice payout coupon. I will seperate the heifers from the cows after breeding season this year and feed them a better quality hay for 30 some days. I will use the BIOPRYN blood preg test at the 30 days after pulling bull and sell all opens as long yearlings for good money. The pregnant heifers will go back in the cow herd for their productive live.

I agree PatB... My replacements came off the cows Nov. 1- were fed good hay til the 24th of Nov-- then thrown back out on pasture with the cows where they are now... And when I have to start feeding- they will get fed right with the cows... Been doing that for about 8 years now- and its been working plumb fine...

I guess your climatic conditions aren't as tough as you make them out to be then.

Actually this came about as necessity when the snow got so deep one winter I could no longer get into the lots the heifers were in to feed them- so I turned them out with the cows.... They did fine- bred up good the next summer- and had learned to socialize more with the cows and weren't off running the fencelines like most yearlings... So I just continued doing it as another way to save labor/time/costs...... And like I said- so far no problems....
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:48 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
PatB wrote:
Why not run the heifers the same as the cows in one large group?
Because their nutritional needs are different? Don't think the little weaned heifer calves here would fare too well wintering on dormant pasture that has been ungrazed all season through a foot of snow. Sounds too farao for me.

Isn't that supportive of bale grazing?
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:31 am

Oldtimer wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
PatB wrote:
Why not run the heifers the same as the cows in one large group? If the a heifer(s) fails to breed she makes a nice payout coupon. I will seperate the heifers from the cows after breeding season this year and feed them a better quality hay for 30 some days. I will use the BIOPRYN blood preg test at the 30 days after pulling bull and sell all opens as long yearlings for good money. The pregnant heifers will go back in the cow herd for their productive live.

I agree PatB... My replacements came off the cows Nov. 1- were fed good hay til the 24th of Nov-- then thrown back out on pasture with the cows where they are now... And when I have to start feeding- they will get fed right with the cows... Been doing that for about 8 years now- and its been working plumb fine...

I guess your climatic conditions aren't as tough as you make them out to be then.

Actually this came about as necessity when the snow got so deep one winter I could no longer get into the lots the heifers were in to feed them- so I turned them out with the cows.... They did fine- bred up good the next summer- and had learned to socialize more with the cows and weren't off running the fencelines like most yearlings... So I just continued doing it as another way to save labor/time/costs...... And like I said- so far no problems....

old timey, I did that 1 year.... for the heifers calves to look OK would bet your cows were pig fat. even with a bale unroller heifers could not compete with mature cows. with the bred heifers.... works OK.
Larkota, born at nite but not last nite.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:38 am

Kent Powell wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
PatB wrote:
Why not run the heifers the same as the cows in one large group?
Because their nutritional needs are different? Don't think the little weaned heifer calves here would fare too well wintering on dormant pasture that has been ungrazed all season through a foot of snow. Sounds too farao for me.

Isn't that supportive of bale grazing?

What supportive of bale grazing? feeding them all together? I hear some people starting to advocate that - because you are overfeeding them by bale-grazing they should still be rearing their calves. I just reckon I can feed them more efficiently separate. Cows are on un-supplemented banked grass. Calves are on hay and wheat distillers meal. That's the other thing you never hear about bale-grazing - the quality of the hay - we are feeding some nice fine, green hay this winter that cost us $55/ton. 64% TDN but only 6% protein. Without supplementation it is woefully short of protein. How do bale-grazers cope with this? My guess is most don't test and feeds lots thinking that quantity makes up for quality. Another inefficiency of bale-grazing.
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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:02 am

larkota wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
Grassfarmer wrote:
Oldtimer wrote:
PatB wrote:
Why not run the heifers the same as the cows in one large group? If the a heifer(s) fails to breed she makes a nice payout coupon. I will seperate the heifers from the cows after breeding season this year and feed them a better quality hay for 30 some days. I will use the BIOPRYN blood preg test at the 30 days after pulling bull and sell all opens as long yearlings for good money. The pregnant heifers will go back in the cow herd for their productive live.

I agree PatB... My replacements came off the cows Nov. 1- were fed good hay til the 24th of Nov-- then thrown back out on pasture with the cows where they are now... And when I have to start feeding- they will get fed right with the cows... Been doing that for about 8 years now- and its been working plumb fine...

I guess your climatic conditions aren't as tough as you make them out to be then.

Actually this came about as necessity when the snow got so deep one winter I could no longer get into the lots the heifers were in to feed them- so I turned them out with the cows.... They did fine- bred up good the next summer- and had learned to socialize more with the cows and weren't off running the fencelines like most yearlings... So I just continued doing it as another way to save labor/time/costs...... And like I said- so far no problems....

old timey, I did that 1 year.... for the heifers calves to look OK would bet your cows were pig fat. even with a bale unroller heifers could not compete with mature cows. with the bred heifers.... works OK.
Larkota, born at nite but not last nite.

Neither were pig fat-- and heifers definitely weren't- but I don't starve my cows either.... My heifers are in better shape in the spring than the heifers my son bought at the Cole Creek sales the end of March.... And both bunchs went to gaining as soon as they went back out on grass- and bred up great... I think sometimes breed up problems come about because heifers are too fat when going on grass-- and they breed better if they are in a period of gaining when you turn the bulls out....

And as Patb said- if they don't breed up- they are good eating...

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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:32 pm

Ian i have been waiting for the time to give this the response you deserve. Yes your heifers need far more Body condition to work for you in your environment then mine, in the environment i live in. But the relevent thing we need to relize is what Genetics can work for both. We have witnessed the diversity of the shoshone genetics as they have adapted to fescue of kentucky to the harsh cold of eastern Montana and many different micro climates in between. I purchased a KA bull last spring and he has adjusted well to his brittle world of little rain, which is a stark contrast from mikes wet humid sultry world. So i guess the question of how much to feed will have many different answers from many different worlds. But what genetics can quickly adapt to these different worlds would be more relevent,to debate than feed.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:35 pm

W.T wrote:
Ian i have been waiting for the time to give this the response you deserve. Yes your heifers need far more Body condition to work for you in your environment then mine, in the environment i live in. But the relevent thing we need to relize is what Genetics can work for both. We have witnessed the diversity of the shoshone genetics as they have adapted to fescue of kentucky to the harsh cold of eastern Montana and many different micro climates in between. I purchased a KA bull last spring and he has adjusted well to his brittle world of little rain, which is a stark contrast from mikes wet humid sultry world. So i guess the question of how much to feed will have many different answers from many different worlds. But what genetics can quickly adapt to these different worlds would be more relevent,to debate than feed.

I have to agree with you on genetics that adapt to different enviroments are the most important. I expect yearling heifers to have a different feed requirement to survive in harsh winter then just weaned heifers that are 200 plus pounds lighter then the yearling I am running with the cows. Winter swath grazing is not possible with the amount of fall moisture we get in my area. We all must adapt our management to the resources we have available to be profitable and stay in business.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:31 pm

W.T wrote:
Ian i have been waiting for the time to give this the response you deserve. Yes your heifers need far more Body condition to work for you in your environment then mine, in the environment i live in. But the relevent thing we need to relize is what Genetics can work for both. We have witnessed the diversity of the shoshone genetics as they have adapted to fescue of kentucky to the harsh cold of eastern Montana and many different micro climates in between. I purchased a KA bull last spring and he has adjusted well to his brittle world of little rain, which is a stark contrast from mikes wet humid sultry world. So i guess the question of how much to feed will have many different answers from many different worlds. But what genetics can quickly adapt to these different worlds would be more relevent,to debate than feed.

Not sure I understand the point you are trying to make WT. I firmly believe that part of the makeup of a successful strain of cattle is that they are regionally adapted (to their prevailing climate and feed sources) Shouldn't it in fact be a breed characteristic if breeds still had such things? I don't think we should be moving cattle about too much from different environments. Moving one of my cold adapted hairy cows to Mississippi could be done but to what end? Isn't it like trying to make your Angus be a Charolais or your Charolais be a Wagyu?
I don't think moving a bull from Ky to Nv is all that tough - sure he'll have to cover more ground, eat some different grass and get used to a drier heat but that's not as big a challenge as a milking cow or heifer would have to make the same move, rear a calf and rebreed. But presumably the reason you bought him wasn't to prove his ability to adapt to a different environment - wasn't it to introduce what you consider may be a more suitable type?
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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:19 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
W.T wrote:
Ian i have been waiting for the time to give this the response you deserve. Yes your heifers need far more Body condition to work for you in your environment then mine, in the environment i live in. But the relevant thing we need to realize is what Genetics can work for both. We have witnessed the diversity of the Shoshone genetics as they have adapted to fescue of Kentucky to the harsh cold of eastern Montana and many different micro climates in between. I purchased a KA bull last spring and he has adjusted well to his brittle world of little rain, which is a stark contrast from mikes wet humid sultry world. So i guess the question of how much to feed will have many different answers from many different worlds. But what genetics can quickly adapt to these different worlds would be more relevant,to debate than feed.

Not sure I understand the point you are trying to make WT. I firmly believe that part of the makeup of a successful strain of cattle is that they are regionally adapted (to their prevailing climate and feed sources) Shouldn't it in fact be a breed characteristic if breeds still had such things? I don't think we should be moving cattle about too much from different environments. Moving one of my cold adapted hairy cows to Mississippi could be done but to what end? Isn't it like trying to make your Angus be a Charolais or your Charolais be a Wagyu?
I don't think moving a bull from Ky to Nv is all that tough - sure he'll have to cover more ground, eat some different grass and get used to a drier heat but that's not as big a challenge as a milking cow or heifer would have to make the same move, rear a calf and rebreed. But presumably the reason you bought him wasn't to prove his ability to adapt to a different environment - wasn't it to introduce what you consider may be a more suitable type?

There are cattle that can adapt Ian and cattle that cannot. And i believe the genetics are the reason. Not the environment. We have cows from Texas at one ranch that have adjusted and thrived on open range and i have witnessed cattle from less than 100 miles from that same allotment struggle to survive on it. I am convinced that this is Genetic not management or any thing else. i have found a slick cow is a slick cow regardless of length of hair, size of cow or breed. When we see a skinny cow in a stabilized population, the first thing that comes to mind is age, as most skinny cows are broken mouth cattle. But when you see broken mouth cattle at various ages, you begin to ask yourself some question's. Why do some lines last into there teens and others fail at 7. We have found that the cattle that can adapt to different environments are not accidents of some breeder blindly stumbling along and finding a Acorn. I feel your genetic package that has worked for you has a distinct pattern that would also work for me. As does Mike. As for purchasing a bull from Kentucky. That was a matter of wanting a KA bull for a long time, I also had wanted a Powell Angus bull and i also Indulged with that desire. As for what they will do for me is confirm My theory about the adaptability of type, They are also both Dam good footed animals, with deep heels and no hollowed out claws, which needs some improvement in my herd .Is the hair coat on your strain a product of there environment? Would it be as long In South Dakota? Could they travel the distance required in my country? I strongly believe that they would lose length of hair and that they would adapt to traveling in the desert. I have had some conversations with Eddie M and Tom D. We all have OCC Homer daughters that have adapted to distinct different environments and have thrived. I have brought other lines of so called adaptable cattle to this country and they have failed? Where FESCUE cattle IMO can adapt to any environment we move them to, Hot, Cold, Wet, Dry. And the point of all this is cattle that have these genetics that can turn off and on in different environments, as required, have a viable economic relevance to all cattlemen, not just a few CRAZIES on the Korner.

.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:44 pm

Isn't it as simple as picking the Bonsma type regardless of breed and finding that they will adapt better than others? Taking my cows to Mississippi and waiting for them to evolve into a less hairy type is waiting on evolution isn't it? If we don't have time to develop a cattle strain in a human lifetime we sure don't have time to wait on the evolutionary process taking effect.
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:37 pm

That was going to be the Title of my first book, Waiting on Evolution.
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