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 I've decided to call bullshit on....

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mikejd4020



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Join date : 2011-12-31
Location : Bainville, MT

PostSubject: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:18 am

Roughing replacement hiefers. Seems like to everybody likes to rough replacement heifers through. I disagree, I think the fatty ones are more capable to make it to a 5 year old cow. Basically, here the roughed replacements always fall out as they don't breed back when they are coming three. Let the fire begin, in fact I am in a disgrunted mood and would gladly enjoy argueing this issue.

This is better than some stupid story about a storm that was so powerful it only killed one old gummer near death cow here.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:48 am

Mike,
the old 4020 hasn`t broken down, has it? Smile
I think maybe we could skimp a little developing heifers according to some producers and some researchers, keep those that settle, sell the rest as feeders...after that, skimping has a severe price in my experience...I`m grazing my weaned heifer calves longer this year; but mostly because I have some grass...and the silage feeding area is over run with cattle for the present...
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mikejd4020



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PostSubject: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:59 am

Just what I want to do. Keep an animal around so that "hopefully it will settle" if not I get to sell the hiefer that I just wasted a year developing (ruining). This place isn't a feedlot. The only way a cow/calf operation makes any money is by cows having calves. Everything else is a fail.
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:24 am

What I wonder about is the epi-genentic aspect of over feeding a young animal and not letting her chromozomes take the direction of what the rest of her life will be like. I sure appears to me that sooner is better in an animal that is going to be in your enviroment.Bob H
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mikejd4020



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PostSubject: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:39 am

I wonder what the epi-finiancial aspect of under feeding an animal so that it will never reach it's genetic potencial? Everyone has a different idea of what roughed is. I am more thinking along the lines of the fat kid in 4th grade that hits his gowth spurt in 7th or 8th and doesn't look like a toothpick. I handle everything better packing around my extra 40.

Think about it most cows fail coming 3. Changing teeth, still growing, nursing calf. Why would you want them roughed or in anything less than a bcs of 6. I think it is robbing peter to pay paul. At some point you are going to have to overfeed to get into shape if roughed earlier.

"Here" the cows that last the longest were the fattest when young."

MikeK. Don't be silly 4020's don't break down. Some of them just leak lots of hydralic oil from somewhere underneath.

Mike



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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:22 am

Mike, I agree with your post title - at least as far as it applies to promotion of the practice by farao and crew - as a tool for genetic selection. But I think an important point was when you said "Everyone has a different idea of what roughed is."
I've tried out both extremes within my comfort zone of heifer development in recent years. We went the very low input way for a couple of years (wintering them so that the smaller end basically stood still all winter and some only weighed 500lbs at a year old. They bred up fine as heifers but I was so concerned about their size and development that I pushed extra feed to them in their second winter which negated any money saved the first winter. After a couple of years of that I quit that and started to treat them better - last winter I overdid them and had some heifers over 700lbs by a year old which is bigger than they need be in my opinion. This year i'll reduce them a little seeking the sweet spot of development strategy.
Through all the changes we made conception never altered (maybe I didn't rough them enough to really find that?) The biggest difference we saw was the proportion of runt (@370lb) calves the heifers reared - even although the formerly shorted heifers looked good by calving time.
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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:02 am

Weaned heifers 450 lbs on 11/1/11 avg gain 1.25lbs weighed 750 on 6/1/12 feed to avg gain of 1lb per day will calve on 4/1/12 will weigh 1050 lbs To many this is roughing them but is IMO the way that works these calves will be in BCS 5 most of there lives. In our operation they have to walk to feed and water. A fat heifer is a open one. Rarely do we find heifers in BCS 6 or more that have bred. We find that all animals that are in good phyiscal condition last longer than cattle that have been too fat or to thin. And good physical condition IMO is a BCS of 5 these cattle will pull down to a 4 in the fall and may reach a 5.5 before calving. But 90% or better of BCS 6 or higher cattle are OPEN. If i am not mistaken Ft Keough had a dicussion on this last Aug and the graph showed favor to the roughed cattle after 5yrs of age and by 7yrs the roughed cattle had a higher % remaining cows. We consider a cow has paid her way at 7. But on the otherhand you can geneticly modify a cow with lack of feed as has been proven by some many times. A 1200lb cow that we all deem as desirable is not a very big cow. I sold the dam of a famous farao Bull this fall that weighed 1310 in a BCS 3. And those heifers that weigh 1050 as two year olds will be 1350lb cows not 1200lb cows. Sometimes i think we confuse ourselves with too much self inflicted BS. I have learned to like the looks and BCS of the ones that last for yrs and have relized that they SUIT me and nothing else matters. WT praying the creeks raise and the river floods before OT can find enough gopher wood .
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MVCatt



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:33 pm

Mike,
Nothing wrong with fat girls...they need lovin too. My 2520 uses more hydraulic oil than gas, but it starts everyday.

MV...liking the new feisty Mike.
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:07 pm

It might be interesting to look at the research at Mile City about this subject. They had done a quit long test on this. It makes no difference to me what people do I just know what we have done in the past 10 or 12 years. We bred 115 heifers last May 10 to June 20th with 90 hd bred. They had wintered out and bred on grass, We also just pregged the comming 3 yearolds there were 8 out of 102. What I think is if you use bulls on heifers and cows that come from a low input enviroment and have been bred to be maternal you can do this. If you try to use mainstream cattle that have been supplemented and randomly crossed to get where they are you will have less success. The most interesting part of this for me is if we are just in the first year of a drouth and more mainstream cattle are put to a real test what will the cow numbers be in a year or two. Our one iron Shoshone cattle have not had much supplementation for 11 years without much fall out. We have not fed the heifer calves more than 3 days hay and no hay to the rest. We actualy started using blabs a couple years ago and quit locking them up to wean. Bob Howard
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mikejd4020



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PostSubject: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:04 pm

Bob,

Obviously, we live in two completely different areas, and you have a grass management system that really works for you.

Also I have seen pics of your cattle on KC. They are not roughed like I am talking about.
I am more talking about the guys who just get them by, and never get them in decent to good shape. Never get fleshy.
A great example would be the so called Auschwitz reproductive jungle put on by farao. Also agreed that the new fad cattle are very weak.

My point is that what is the big deal about spending $50 dollars more a head to get them growing and in good shape. Seems like more people are trying to starve the profit out of a cow. When in the end they just have many open cows with no profit.

I no longer place any merit on any university tests at all. Was involved in several. All were a complete waste of time and money. That's another whole subject there. Evil or Very Mad

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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:31 pm

I am not sure of what you see when you look at pictures of our cattle. If we run high energy cattle with these cattle those pictures might be more what you think that you might see. My point is that cattle that are epi-geneticly and geneticly adapated to an enviroment do not need the same care and expense as cattle that are not. We do not spend any more money than nececassry on cattle that are not going to be sold. If they are market cattle and we can recoup that money and make more we will spend it. The reason that I am responding to this topic is the title. The peridigm that I think we addressing is that all cattle are alike . In my observations they are as different as night and day and need to be observed for what they are, we are just turning sunlight and water into a consumable protien at the lowest possable cost no more no less. If I am going to survive in an industry that I truly enjoy I thnk that we will have to shift our peridigms as fast as we can see that they are wrong. Bob H
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:08 pm

Mike,
I also know a herd that always stays fat and has 20% open yearly...I think "learned behavior" QUITE important in what BobH is writing...but sometimes there isn`t enough feed here to teach them right from wrong... Smile
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:24 pm

Mike I thought that it was learned behavior until I visited with my daughter in law about epi-genetics. She is a PA and a brainiac she had studied it quiet extensively and thought that todays obesity problem came from the Great depresion when peoples chromozomes changed to live through not enough and now have not changed back to not give them type two diabetes. If Epi-genetics can effect todays population after 80 years why would we not take adavantage of using our own enviroment to make better cattle. I think that if you start with good genetics that are being tested in a less input enviroment with a simple preg test and good enough weaning weights and bred them in your enviroment you will excede your greatest expectations. Bob H
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:36 pm

Bob H wrote:
Mike I thought that it was learned behavior until I visited with my daughter in law about epi-genetics. She is a PA and a brainiac she had studied it quiet extensively and thought that todays obesity problem came from the Great depresion when peoples chromozomes changed to live through not enough and now have not changed back to not give them type two diabetes. If Epi-genetics can effect todays population after 80 years why would we not take adavantage of using our own enviroment to make better cattle. I think that if you start with good genetics that are being tested in a less input enviroment with a simple preg test and good enough weaning weights and bred them in your enviroment you will excede your greatest expectations. Bob H

Bob,
I must have had some ancestors that near starved to death Smile lots of factors involved, but yelp...there comes a time to put boys with girls Smile
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:46 pm

My question to Mike J is why would you what to change a chromozome in your repalcement herd until later when you could do it while she had the most value of her generation. As a yearling heifer if she is open you can put her on feed at 900 lbs for a 1.50 a hundred or 1350 dollars or make a cow out of her if she breeds. When she is open at 5 at 60 cents she only brings back $720 and three more interest payments of 40 dollars each. I agree that you need to have your 2 year old heifers on good grass for 60 days to get them bred but why more expense. If the 2 year olds are pulling down after they are bred wean the calves and put the money into the market animal that you can recoup. This much energy from me comes from the title of bullshit we don't live in lala land we live in reality that fat cows have wasted to much energy and money or it has been a great year. Bob H from the land of cows that work with us to make a living, no socialism here
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Angus 62



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:47 pm

Same old deal. Calve in the winter and things start to turn to $hit. Breed heifers on green grass in June or July and they are likely gaining enough weight to breed. After watching three year old heifers that would calve 45 days later calve before the ''good heifers" that calved in the dead of winter, it finally dawned on me.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:50 pm

A query about your preg rates Bob. You quoted 90 heifers bred out of 115 after 2 cycles - that's over 20% open - is that normal for you and would you consider it a good result? I saw elsewhere you quoted your Shoshone group of cows being under 5% open or late.
We have always noticed less difference between cow and heifer preg rates - cows are typically 4-7% open with the heifers 4% open. We run the heifers for 3 cycles the same as the cows so we would add another 4% open if we pulled the bulls after 2 cycles like you do (probably should as 3rd cycle heifers don't have a good record around here). But why should heifers run at 20% open - I've read of guys up here that quote 25-30% open - why is it so hard for a heifer to get pregnant when she isn't doing anything else? - it should be a lot easier for her than a first calver to re-breed surely?
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:13 pm























Grassy our preg rate on our first calf heifers is always between 80 and 90 % we breed for a less than 2 heat cycles on heifers that have had no care. We will have good feed for about 40 days before the bulls are put in and we just have a random breeding of black heifers to breed as we always use Shoshone to just get enough heifers to breed randomly and use the majority Charlios for lbs. We have change abit in the last year as most of the calf crop will be Shoshone this year . We feel that the bred heifer market should make up for lose of dollars in weight. If the drought continues we will be wrong. I would expect that the lead end of 275 Shoshone breeding heifers would breed upward of 95% in 30 days or 114 out of 120 or so. If bred heifers are only worth 14 to 16 hunderd dollars it will be a loss. So goes the cattle bussiness.

Angus 62 that is what started this project 12 years ago. Whe would we piss away money when it can be made not fighting nature. Bob H














g
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:17 pm

One other thought on this is the open heifers will be harvested on Dec 7 at 1.42 x 1300 so I don't think of this as falure but cash flow.
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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:24 pm

I like Bob's numbers the 25 heifers that didn't breed sale for top dollar as bob has stated. And the proof is in the pudding with the very impressive 8 of 102 that were bred as three. For any operation that is a BIG number for 3 yr old to re breed. As Mike j stated they are going through the toughest year of there lives, and that is a outstanding % for a big country operation. The next milestone is 7 and what % make it that far as It appears that Bob has cattle that have made that milestone with a high% as well. The biggest thing we are missing here is the ENVIRONMENT. I had 57 heifers this year and on A 60 day I have 10 opens Two of those were pretty young the rest went to town, we just had the driest water year on record, and i will gladly accept those numbers as excellent breed up. we had 20 three year old and 3 were open once again these numbers reflect cattle that have adapted to their environment, not the fact that they were too fat or too thin. On the other hand Mike J has a very valid point If i buy heifers from a different environment they will need to be in a far higher condition than native heifers if we expect them to have any success at all. I have bought bred heifers from several sources with very mixed results. But the big issue IMO is the cattle must be in good enough shape to travel the area required to sustain themselves and in the desert FAT cattle go to the sale.
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mikejd4020



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PostSubject: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:28 pm

"If the 2 year olds are pulling down after they are bred wean the calves and put the money into the market animal that you can recoup. " Bob H



I guess what I am getting at is that if I put the replacements in good bcs. They don't get pulled down as twos when bred, no need to wean earlier than normal. When I rough them to much that is when I have problems as bred 2's.

Were they roughed that much if they wiegh 1,300 on Dec 7. Jesus I might be roughing them more than you are. That is a big open heifer. Agreed that is a big check. So why not just keep them all, hiefers, steers. Run less cows, save more calves back. It's like opening your own money press.

Bob, I don't think your heifers are being roughed through the winter, just put out to good pasture.

You do make some interesting and valid points.

WT here skinny cattle don't get up after a 3 day cold snap.

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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:37 pm

The reason that they weigh that is we put them on feed in Colorado the first of August as they were open and less than 30 months. We shipped them with the last of the yearlings. Bob H
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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:39 pm

We get pretty cold her as well not near what you do but -25 is common, if a cow is in a BCS of 3 she won't do any one any good for you or me. And if $50.00 dollars is all that it take;s to make one fat go for it. But here most cattle will never be fat enough to call a BCS 6 or 7 in their live. Many old timers claimed that the most fertile cow was a BCS 4 headed to 5 and after yrs of watching that to be the case i agree with them. When it gets to -25 or more and you see frost on the cows back she is fat enough for this country, she shows see has enough condition to not loose her heat. Any more fat thasn that just make's someone feel good. WT onnly have enough hay to feed so many so much for so long no free rides this winter.
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:48 pm

WT I agree 4 headed for 5 is probably the most productive cow. The reason that I live in Hammett Idaho is the coldest recorded temp in 25 years is 14 below and that is cold enough for me. When I left Challis Idaho 28 years ago it had been 54 below and I said to hell with this and moved. Bob H
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Farmerkuk



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PostSubject: Re: I've decided to call bullshit on....   Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:55 pm

BCS 4 to a 5 is where I try to run my cows.

38 out of 38 of my 3yr olds bred back. The 3yr olds got the same program as the rest of the cows.

I had 2.5% open on my cow herd this year.



Last edited by Farmerkuk on Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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