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df



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PostSubject: Semen Auction   Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:56 pm

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jonken



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PostSubject: Re: Semen Auction   Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:26 pm

What's your commission df ?
Will these ancient sires benefit the beef industry ?
Is abs making room in their storage tanks ?
Jon
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: Semen Auction   Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:58 am

jonken wrote:
What's your commission df ?
Will these ancient sires benefit the beef industry ?
Is abs making room in their storage tanks ?
Jon

told LL my plans of breeding old sires. all he said was "so what are you going to do different?"

it all has been done before. what makes the next time any better??
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LCP



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PostSubject: Re: Semen Auction   Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:32 pm

larkota wrote:
jonken wrote:
What's your commission df ?
Will these ancient sires benefit the beef industry ?
Is abs making room in their storage tanks ?
Jon

told LL my plans of breeding old sires. all he said was "so what are you going to do different?"

it all has been done before. what makes the next time any better??

Maybe it could be better. If any of those old sires were "good enough," couldn't a breeder go back to using some of them to create lines for a given purpose, selecting the "average" rather than the outliers that apparently were chosen to carry on the genetics? Or weren't any of those old bulls that good to begin with? I'm just wondering.

Unfortunately I would guess if they were any good, or if the memories are any good, the semen will get quite expensive due to the rarity and how sexy it would be to put this line in your sale catalog..."once in a lifetime chance to buy a direct son/daughter of so-and-so"...
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Semen Auction   Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:33 pm

I am glad ABS found that semen. A asked about it 15 years ago and was told they kept their inventory current and didn't keep old semen.

I read somewhere that ABS guys don't put down the competition. The area sales manager told linda that he didn't think much of those buying semen for over $50 from me on the open to the public online auction. I am trying to grasp- expensive semen bad, reasonable priced bulls no good, expensive bulls good, cheap semen from expensive ABS bulls very good. I've got something better.

Here ye Here ye, now offering at the rock bottom price of $15.00 Semen from the superior proven Powell Ranch bloodline representative sire Stability who has recently been valued at $200,000. High value at a reasonable price. A large number of his sons are available this fall after weaning.

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Gus



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PostSubject: Re: Semen Auction   Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:08 pm

Kent Powell wrote:
I am glad ABS found that semen. A asked about it 15 years ago and was told they kept their inventory current and didn't keep old semen.

I was also told they wouldn't sale any do to liability issues, and company policy. Of course the bull I was interested in isn't on the list, most likely I won't pay what they want for them, plus I believ the best bull I ever used is walking my pasture even as I type.

Quote :
Here ye Here ye, now offering at the rock bottom price of $15.00 Semen from the superior proven Powell Ranch bloodline representative sire Stability who has recently been valued at $200,000.

Very Happy cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Semen Auction   Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:18 pm

Kent Powell wrote:
I am glad ABS found that semen. A asked about it 15 years ago and was told they kept their inventory current and didn't keep old semen.

I read somewhere that ABS guys don't put down the competition. The area sales manager told linda that he didn't think much of those buying semen for over $50 from me on the open to the public online auction. I am trying to grasp- expensive semen bad, reasonable priced bulls no good, expensive bulls good, cheap semen from expensive ABS bulls very good. I've got something better.

Here ye Here ye, now offering at the rock bottom price of $15.00 Semen from the superior proven Powell Ranch bloodline representative sire Stability who has recently been valued at $200,000. High value at a reasonable price. A large number of his sons are available this fall after weaning.


Now Kent it is clear that you have not been paying attention.. ABS will fire any one that puts the competition down. And that is a proven statement by good salt of the earth people. Now Briann and i will have to make a partner ship here to purchase that semen from you and i am sure that will enhance the value if we each pay $7.50 per straw then you can triple that amount and add 27% and divide by 13 and times by 9 and you will then have something rare and valuable, That the world will not be able to live without. This in its self will triple the value of the Stability bull by at least 1%. Then I can sale a son back to you for $300,000 and his value will triple again and then you can sale a son to Briann for the same value Divided by 2 and we will all be full of shit for a day or two until, Mike publishes are adventure in some Kentucky cattle paper then some student from some university will read the BS and bragg at how valuable your bulls are we will all be rich. cheers cheers cheers But for gods sake dont bad mouth a ABS rep or your name will never be mentioned again. pirat pirat
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Semen Auction   Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:02 pm

Kent Powell wrote:
I am glad ABS found that semen. A asked about it 15 years ago and was told they kept their inventory current and didn't keep old semen.

I read somewhere that ABS guys don't put down the competition. The area sales manager told linda that he didn't think much of those buying semen for over $50 from me on the open to the public online auction. I am trying to grasp- expensive semen bad, reasonable priced bulls no good, expensive bulls good, cheap semen from expensive ABS bulls very good. I've got something better.

Here ye Here ye, now offering at the rock bottom price of $15.00 Semen from the superior proven Powell Ranch bloodline representative sire Stability who has recently been valued at $200,000. High value at a reasonable price. A large number of his sons are available this fall after weaning.


careful Kent; you don`t want tp upset our neighbors at 5barx that so graciously welcome anyone without toxic and self-righteous attitudes. Wink
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Semen Auction   Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:32 pm

I sure hope I am neither. I guess I think It was in poor taste to express an opinion about my customers. I guess I learned how important I was as a customer to him.

I am sure he will similarly criticize the buyers in this offering.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Semen Auction   Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:03 pm

jonken wrote:
What's your commission df ?
Will these ancient sires benefit the beef industry ?
Is abs making room in their storage tanks ?
Jon

No commission for me. I have other ideas................

According to the EPDs available on these set of bulls, no, I don't think they have much benefit. However..............

Don't have any idea if ABS needs more room. Maybe they feel these bulls have gone up in value more than the general stock market and they should sell. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Semen Auction   Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:28 pm

df wrote:
jonken wrote:
What's your commission df ?
Will these ancient sires benefit the beef industry ?
Is abs making room in their storage tanks ?
Jon

No commission for me. I have other ideas................

According to the EPDs available on these set of bulls, no, I don't think they have much benefit. However..............

Don't have any idea if ABS needs more room. Maybe they feel these bulls have gone up in value more than the general stock market and they should sell. Smile

Or is it time to sale while they are still rare and valuable?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Semen Auction   Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:35 pm

df wrote:
jonken wrote:
What's your commission df ?
Will these ancient sires benefit the beef industry ?
Is abs making room in their storage tanks ?
Jon

No commission for me. I have other ideas................

According to the EPDs available on these set of bulls, no, I don't think they have much benefit. However..............

Don't have any idea if ABS needs more room. Maybe they feel these bulls have gone up in value more than the general stock market and they should sell. Smile

those epds ought to be in the bottom 5 %; maybe even 1% of the breed; so they are rare; thus valuable...ABS should tip me for not registering because I bet my epds would compete with these bulls, diminishing the rarity value of this offering....
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Semen Auction   Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:55 am

Dennis,

They would not have much benefit based on EPD's? That is a little harsh. I take that back. Is that what the University is teaching? My RESEARCH indicates that the growth level of the oldest on the list is nearing the highest level maintained when levels are allowed to find themselves and selection is based on function FIRST. What I like to call tending toward maternal. Hell, it is the level of Traveler and many of the bulls born 10-20 years after 707, yet still held in high regard. And these sires were Extreme in their time.



How is one of the most extreme milk, muscle, and growth bulls in the breed a grandson of the oldest bull on this list? I thought the system was sorting out superior gene combinations cumulatively at such a rate that this should not be possible.



Are the upper echelon numerical cattle vastly superior, or is there a possibility that there is a bubble between populations that is not crossed at a statistically significant level? Is continual, high volumn, head to head comparison necessary to bring up or even maintain numerical levels with each generation? For example, the small sampling of grandsons of 707 who were identified in a single high EPD Herd. While sired by a pretty extreme 707 son, he was identified from a very small sampling in a high epd herd.

During my research, I found that several attempts to "tie into" the system to have accurate genetic levels presented for my breeding endeavor would pull down the sires who were more direct links to the mainstream and move up the dominant sires who were from more isolated populations. In fact, it moved them up to the the level previously mentioned. Existing sires would move up from 20 to 40 on yw. Brought in sires would go from 65 - 70 down to 40-50. Is there less difference than predicted, or is this the result of eliminating outliers as breeding animals?



When High accuracy bulls were used, AS A MAJORITY, it would bring the high growth end of the calves out of the low numbered bulls up to the highest level of the AI sired calves.

Is the genetic level of a population CHANGED based on the volumn of use and the epd's they are compared (or not compared) against? Of coarse not.

The majority prevails and will take the extreme of the minority up or down to its level.



Is this system to find a true genetic level or create the illusion of going faster than we really are. Are undersampled "untied" genetics over assumed as inferior? Are wave riders of current heritage over assumed as superior? Are differences from top to bottom truly significant? Why do the lows get lower as the top gets higher even though noone is selecting for less?



I can handle the truth, can the number cattle or their caretakers?



( Caution, this message may have a negative effect on a majority of supposedly educated mesmirized EPD memorizors. Temporary alterations to disposition and ill will toward the author will not alter their true genetic merit. )



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PostSubject: Re: Semen Auction   Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:57 am

It is good to see Kent back in fighting form.
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: Semen Auction   Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:37 am

Bootheel wrote:
It is good to see Kent back in fighting form.

I agree, pure insomnia-inspired brilliance.

TD, wondering how many pots of coffee Kent will go through today
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Semen Auction   Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:42 pm

"Benefit" might be the wrong word. Some producers may use this semen and make better cows but not recognize the benefit. However, in general, they don't rank high for the growth and carcass merit pursued by mainstream breeders, feeders and packers. That was my point when I said they don't have much benefit. With that said, I have interest in several bulls for personal reasons, and very little of that has to do with the EPDs.

These bulls may be perfectly fine. However, I suspect each of these bulls has their faults and breeders have been trying to minimize these in later generations. If the cattle today are worse than what was available 30 years ago, then some reflection is in order. Very Happy So I would then ask; what information do you use to determine the bulls that will best fit your needs? Are the EPDs and indexes informative to making that selection or do breeders need to get on the phone and ask questions and find producers who can give the best advice on how to use them?

My research shows bulls do not necessarily rank the same in different environements. You have found the same.

Again, you may not have noticed my interest in these bulls as represented by not finishing my sentences.............................

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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Semen Auction   Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:37 pm

Ranking high for growth. For those that sell cattle by the pound I suppose.

I get a little flack for my history with the Italian Stallion bulls of my youth. No nuts, no guts, but fertile, masculine, fantastically sound, super footed, athletic critters that would breed every cow in the country regardless of fence quality until they found a longhorn bull who could remind them of what functional horns can really do. They gave great lessons in horsemanship, patience, and resiliance. Character building traits that become less important when trouble free cattle take their place. These cattle had no growth according to the numbers. They were growing SOB's. Gained as good as we have now. I won carcass contests with their calves. Do we need growth when we have hybrid vigor? Do we have to feed high ranking terminal cows when the west was built on the range cow that could produce unpampered for 20 years? That cow has been all but improved out of existance.



Can genetic ability exceed economic levels of management?


Do you think there is an economically viable commercial chain of production to utilize the levels of production available now?

Forgive my ignorance due to my age, but were cattle sold by the pound during the high ranking for "quality" freak and dwarf type that were in vogue for at least 30 years?


From the land that survived the exotics with three strands of 70 year old barbwire hung on thumb sized hedge posts.

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df



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PostSubject: Re: Semen Auction   Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:05 pm

Kent Powell wrote:
Ranking high for growth. For those that sell cattle by the pound I suppose.

I get a little flack for my history with the Italian Stallion bulls of my youth. No nuts, no guts, but fertile, masculine, fantastically sound, super footed, athletic critters that would breed every cow in the country regardless of fence quality until they found a longhorn bull who could remind them of what functional horns can really do. They gave great lessons in horsemanship, patience, and resiliance. Character building traits that become less important when trouble free cattle take their place. These cattle had no growth according to the numbers. They were growing SOB's. Gained as good as we have now. I won carcass contests with their calves. Do we need growth when we have hybrid vigor? Do we have to feed high ranking terminal cows when the west was built on the range cow that could produce unpampered for 20 years? That cow has been all but improved out of existance.



Can genetic ability exceed economic levels of management?


Do you think there is an economically viable commercial chain of production to utilize the levels of production available now?

Forgive my ignorance due to my age, but were cattle sold by the pound during the high ranking for "quality" freak and dwarf type that were in vogue for at least 30 years?


From the land that survived the exotics with three strands of 70 year old barbwire hung on thumb sized hedge posts.


Sure, genetic ability can exceed economic levels of management.

Several months ago I typed a small article as to my position, where I came from and where I stand. I guess I should dig it up.
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Semen Auction   Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:56 pm

Do you think there is an economically viable commercial chain of production to utilize the levels of production available now?
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PostSubject: Re: Semen Auction   Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:18 pm

well, off subject, but I think I`ve been quiet long enough...do you guys realize df is now almost my neighbor ? Smile
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Semen Auction   Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:49 pm

Kent Powell wrote:
Do you think there is an economically viable commercial chain of production to utilize the levels of production available now?

I believe there are systems that are better than others. It is possible for all of the systems to be profitable and at other times none of them are profitable.

Probably the biggest challenge is identifying the ideal cow and propagating her. Terminal bulls are plentiful.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Semen Auction   Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:50 pm

MKeeney wrote:
well, off subject, but I think I`ve been quiet long enough...do you guys realize df is now almost my neighbor ? Smile

Gosh MK, you are going to make it hard for me to sneak into KY and check things out if you let everybody know to be on the lookout!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Semen Auction   Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:57 pm

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
well, off subject, but I think I`ve been quiet long enough...do you guys realize df is now almost my neighbor ? Smile

Gosh MK, you are going to make it hard for me to sneak into KY and check things out if you let everybody know to be on the lookout!!!
I was going to let it be a surprise, but the crowd interest seems to be a little slow...I need a SALE ATTRACTION Exclamation Smile
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Semen Auction   Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:27 pm

df wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
Do you think there is an economically viable commercial chain of production to utilize the levels of production available now?

I believe there are systems that are better than others. It is possible for all of the systems to be profitable and at other times none of them are profitable.

Probably the biggest challenge is identifying the ideal cow and propagating her. Terminal bulls are plentiful.

Is this offering more maternal or less maternal than current ABS sires?
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Semen Auction   Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:29 pm

Kent Powell wrote:
df wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
Do you think there is an economically viable commercial chain of production to utilize the levels of production available now?

I believe there are systems that are better than others. It is possible for all of the systems to be profitable and at other times none of them are profitable.

Probably the biggest challenge is identifying the ideal cow and propagating her. Terminal bulls are plentiful.

Is this offering more maternal or less maternal than current ABS sires?

I think I know where you are going.................

The good maternal bulls of the past typically had mature weights of 1900-2250 lbs. I think this size bull would often sire females that weighed 1200-1300 lbs. The majority of Angus bulls in the bulls studs weigh 2300 - 2600 lbs and often exceed the GV, LM and SM bulls. I don't know if this is their true weight as in the past, some would say the bulls are bigger than they in fact were and now some might claim the bulls are smaller than they are in fact.

With that said, I don't think it can be claimed that some bulls were Maternal just because their growth and mature size is more moderate compared to bulls today and that all Angus bulls in the AI studs are terminal. In addition, just because Angus milk more today compared to 30 yrs ago does not mean they are not optimum under some system of management.

Is RR Rito 707 maternal because his growth and milk are less than popular bulls today? Is EXT terminal because he did not work for everybody?

(It could be said that a bull that does work for everybody is terminal as he provides the growth and carcass merit that many desire.)

IMO, the most important result of linebreeding should be that you should be able to buy with more confidence. You should not have to wait until the daughters are 5 yrs old to be able to say the sire will produce wonderful females. I believe regionally produced lines that are very well adapted to the environment provide a method of enhancing production. In this case, commercial producers could buy the best animals for them instead of animals that are pretty good for almost everybody but not the best for specifically anybody. This is why a line that works in W. KS may not work on fescue. However, that line in W. KS might be exactly what that region needs and no other line can compete. It is called genotype by environment interaction.
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