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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:14 pm

MKeeney wrote:
in this inbreeding project; full sibs of somewhat different conformation were mated...the et flush produced three heifers and a bull...of the three heifers, one favored the sire side, and two more favored the dam side; the bull favored the dam side...the female favoring the sire side was flushed to her full brother {second full sib mating in the lineage} and the progeny deterioated while all favored the orginal dam side...so heeding
I have come to believe the phenotypic selection criteria self-governs the level of inbreeding or degree of prepotency;

would have caused us pause had we not been experimenting how far can you go and still maintain fertile animals...and we would have stopped inbreeding the most fault free of the full sib daughters...25% plus IBC...I can`t find her pic, but her daughter below {20%plus IBC } very much resembles her dam



While not quite what I prefer; a very suitable speciman to continue with..., the regression experienced throughout the experiment no big deal; because I hope to have shown; restoration is just one cross away...or as above, perhaps just lowering the inbreeding/prepotency level to something more functional...the two young 20% inbreds up further above have been flushed to create approximately 16% IBC by a proven bull...
everyone should tight breed something in the herd...or, as I mentioned earlier, get some pigs to inbred Smile
how convenient my advice...so happens, we have inbred pigs for sale...how many did you say? Smile

I should point out there is no magical inbreeding pre-determined selection, beginning or stopping point...chart your course; shift, not with the wind, but with the results, and you`ll see the truth in I have come to believe the phenotypic selection criteria self-governs the level of inbreeding or degree of prepotency;
ask only yourself is it worth the effort; because only you can answer that question...I believe in large part your answer will depend on how happy you are going where no one has gone before....
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:19 pm

MKeeney wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
in this inbreeding project; full sibs of somewhat different conformation were mated...the et flush produced three heifers and a bull...of the three heifers, one favored the sire side, and two more favored the dam side; the bull favored the dam side...the female favoring the sire side was flushed to her full brother {second full sib mating in the lineage} and the progeny deterioated while all favored the orginal dam side...so heeding
I have come to believe the phenotypic selection criteria self-governs the level of inbreeding or degree of prepotency;

would have caused us pause had we not been experimenting how far can you go and still maintain fertile animals...and we would have stopped inbreeding the most fault free of the full sib daughters...25% plus IBC...I can`t find her pic, but her daughter below {20%plus IBC } very much resembles her dam


While not quite what I prefer; a very suitable speciman to continue with..., the regression experienced throughout the experiment no big deal; because I hope to have shown; restoration is just one cross away...or as above, perhaps just lowering the inbreeding/prepotency level to something more functional...the two young 20% inbreds up further above have been flushed to create approximately 16% IBC by a proven bull...
everyone should tight breed something in the herd...or, as I mentioned earlier, get some pigs to inbred Smile
how convenient my advice...so happens, we have inbred pigs for sale...how many did you say? Smile

I should point out there is no magical inbreeding pre-determined selection, beginning or stopping point...chart your course; shift, not with the wind, but with the results, and you`ll see the truth in I have come to believe the phenotypic selection criteria self-governs the level of inbreeding or degree of prepotency;
ask only yourself is it worth the effort; because only you can answer that question...I believe in large part your answer will depend on how happy you are going where no one has gone before....

Excellent. I may be a neophyte (here) but am one who prefers the road less traveled.
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:54 pm

thanks and welcome Warren...it is the least among us who must change this industry; we begin by changing ourselves...
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:29 am

check out the jersey's webinars they have info on inbreeding by pedigree and genomic defined. The amount of inbreeding varies between animals along with the genes inherited from the parents.

Reposted from advantage

"There is a VG set of archived webinars from the American Jersey Cattle Assoc. online dealing with the accelerating adoption of genomics. It is an excellent example of an association staying in touch with its members as a new technology is being adopted.

http://www.usjersey.com/News/webinars.htm#TWJG

While there is a some dairy-speak involved, anyone interested in background briefing in bovine genomics (lab procedures, costs, sampling, competition and future possibilities) might want to take 30 minutes to listen to the 6 Oct session with GeneSeek and Dr. Curt Van Tassell.

http://www.usjersey.com/Webinars/ThisWeekInJerseyGenomics20101006.wvx

Tom Howard"
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:43 am

patb wrote:
check out the jersey's webinars they have info on inbreeding by pedigree and genomic defined. The amount of inbreeding varies between animals along with the genes inherited from the parents.

Reposted from advantage

"There is a VG set of archived webinars from the American Jersey Cattle Assoc. online dealing with the accelerating adoption of genomics. It is an excellent example of an association staying in touch with its members as a new technology is being adopted.

http://www.usjersey.com/News/webinars.htm#TWJG

While there is a some dairy-speak involved, anyone interested in background briefing in bovine genomics (lab procedures, costs, sampling, competition and future possibilities) might want to take 30 minutes to listen to the 6 Oct session with GeneSeek and Dr. Curt Van Tassell.

http://www.usjersey.com/Webinars/ThisWeekInJerseyGenomics20101006.wvx

Tom Howard"
good stuff Pat..maybe I`ll be calling the Jersey folks for inbreeding info...wouldn`t it be neat to see the true inbreeding level when choosing between two or more closely related animals...
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:01 am

What I find interesting is the price of the test drop from $55 do $30. If all the major breed associations can agree on the details these chips will be able to run parentage along with the other markers thus reducing the cost of DNA parentage testing. I agree with mike it would be nice to know how much and what is inherited from each parent. I think breeders need to keep abreast of the changes in this technology to take advantage of it when the price is right.
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:52 am

With technological advances and mathematical methods used to calculate EPD's and the mathematical ability to calculate IBC's what are the restrictions of factoring IBC's into EPD's to indicate an animal's ability to add to heterosis due to a parent's inbreeding depression as expressed in an IBC?

This is something I asked the AHA in the late 1990's. Did not receive a response.
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:10 am

dwight@steadfastbeef.com wrote:
With technological advances and mathematical methods used to calculate EPD's and the mathematical ability to calculate IBC's what are the restrictions of factoring IBC's into EPD's to indicate an animal's ability to add to heterosis due to a parent's inbreeding depression as expressed in an IBC?

This is something I asked the AHA in the late 1990's. Did not receive a response.

I believe the jersey association is working on that for the jersey breed.
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:51 pm

dwight@steadfastbeef.com wrote:
With technological advances and mathematical methods used to calculate EPD's and the mathematical ability to calculate IBC's what are the restrictions of factoring IBC's into EPD's to indicate an animal's ability to add to heterosis due to a parent's inbreeding depression as expressed in an IBC?

This is something I asked the AHA in the late 1990's. Did not receive a response.

Since the EPD is largely based on within contemporary group performance of a sire's relatives, I guess you could include a further adjustment in the performance of the relevant animals, such as adding back the expected regression before calculating the ratios and the EPD. In other words, if my 25% inbred calf weaned at 400 lbs when the group weaned at 500 lbs, and the smart guys decided that she deserved a 25% upward adjustment to account for her inbreeding depression, she's get an adjusted weight of 500 lbs, which performance number would be used in calculating the EPD. I guess that'd be workable, and maybe get us to an apple v apple comparison.

But I think all that does is save a bulls EPDs from being "unfairly" decreased due to the breeding system (assuming bulls deserve fair treatment in breeding value determination). It doesn't really show the power we think is in inbreeding, which is what happens when highly inbred cattle are bred to very unrelated cattle, so what you'd need would be a completely different EPD directed to the commercial user who is breeding a highly inbred Angus or Continental bull to, for example, a group of Brahma cows. And since the value of the highly inbred bull of a given breed versus a non-highly inbred bull of the same breed is probably mostly in the consistency of the progeny as opposed to actual differences in average performance, I guess I'm wondering what kind of "EPD" could actually describe the reduction of variation expected. That might be fun.
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:57 am

Mean Spirit wrote:
dwight@steadfastbeef.com wrote:
With technological advances and mathematical methods used to calculate EPD's and the mathematical ability to calculate IBC's what are the restrictions of factoring IBC's into EPD's to indicate an animal's ability to add to heterosis due to a parent's inbreeding depression as expressed in an IBC?

This is something I asked the AHA in the late 1990's. Did not receive a response.

Since the EPD is largely based on within contemporary group performance of a sire's relatives, I guess you could include a further adjustment in the performance of the relevant animals, such as adding back the expected regression before calculating the ratios and the EPD. In other words, if my 25% inbred calf weaned at 400 lbs when the group weaned at 500 lbs, and the smart guys decided that she deserved a 25% upward adjustment to account for her inbreeding depression, she's get an adjusted weight of 500 lbs, which performance number would be used in calculating the EPD. I guess that'd be workable, and maybe get us to an apple v apple comparison.

But I think all that does is save a bulls EPDs from being "unfairly" decreased due to the breeding system (assuming bulls deserve fair treatment in breeding value determination). It doesn't really show the power we think is in inbreeding, which is what happens when highly inbred cattle are bred to very unrelated cattle, so what you'd need would be a completely different EPD directed to the commercial user who is breeding a highly inbred Angus or Continental bull to, for example, a group of Brahma cows. And since the value of the highly inbred bull of a given breed versus a non-highly inbred bull of the same breed is probably mostly in the consistency of the progeny as opposed to actual differences in average performance, I guess I'm wondering what kind of "EPD" could actually describe the reduction of variation expected. That might be fun.
the thoughts and directions of a breeder with Tru-Line potential...
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:03 am

MKeeney wrote:

a little technology test here...




Tom, above is another inbred full sister; calf at side by Unwanted...combining inbreds with Unwanted`s, puts one`s marketing program in severe jeopardy Smile ...so knowing your cattle, but more importantly, knowing you, I have to smile thinking about you saying you had built your herd from the culls you had purchased here...now my breeding program has regressed to the point that you can build your herd around the bulls I will give you if you dare use a calf like pictured to breed some heifers Smile

when ambition ends, happiness begins...Thomas Merton

How closely related are Unwanted and the above pictured, inbred cow with the calf at her side?
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:35 am

most of the invisible in that mating remains... invisible...
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:09 am

the pedigree of a purebred...
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:55 pm

That is a different deal, Mike, I guess that is the pedigree in reference to the"I am my own Grandpa"? I would like to see that, stretched out to show more generations. It gets to hard to follow back on the Associations, 3 generation setup.
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:46 pm

here`s another way of looking at it Joe...starts with grandparents of 1707

......
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:11 pm

It is still the same animals.....over and over and over and over Shocked I am too simple minded, to follow........I liked the color code on the Hereford pedigree link, brought up by df,.........I may have to get a looooongggg piece of paper and draw it out. Pretty neat stuff, anyhow!!
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:25 pm



If you don`t like the pictured son, below, of the above cow, who I had figured to be another "Unwanted" in our 2010 sale, enjoy the New Mexico scenery...there are no miracles, but there damn sure are lots of mysteries...

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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:54 pm

The Habsburgs sought to consolidate their power by the frequent use of consanguineous marriages, with ultimately disastrous results for their gene pool.[citation needed] Marriages between first cousins, or between uncle and niece, were commonplace in the family. A study of 3,000 family members over 16 generations by the University of Santiago de Compostela suggests that inbreeding directly led to their extinction. The gene pool eventually became so small that the last of the Spanish line Charles II, who was severely disabled by genetic disorders, possessed a genome comparable to that of a child born to a brother and sister, as did his father, likely due to "Remote Inbreeding".[8] The infamous Habsburg jaw was one such prominent manifestation of inbreeding.[9]





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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:28 pm

Got a litter of 6, sire daughter matings, born Monday, Mike.....heavily white factored, one black outlier.....might be the only strain I ever develop. I am going to need a test cross, to prove it out. Have you got that inbred gyp proved out enough to mate her yet?
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:10 am

Bootheel wrote:
Got a litter of 6, sire daughter matings, born Monday, Mike.....heavily white factored, one black outlier.....might be the only strain I ever develop. I am going to need a test cross, to prove it out. Have you got that inbred gyp proved out enough to mate her yet?
I have threatened to give her away...too much accumulation of bad genes in my opinion
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PostSubject: the proof behind the Manifesto   Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:26 pm




Fig. 10a: Inbred plant B73 (left), inbred plant Mo17 (middle), and hybrid plant B73 x Mo17 (right). (University of Nebraska-Lincoln, 2004)



Fig. 10b: B73 ear (left), B73 x Mo17 hybrid ear (middle), and Mo17 ear (right) (University of Nebraska-Lincoln, 2004)
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:34 pm

Why were corn breeders in the mid- and late-20th century able to make such substantial genetic improvements for grain yield, whereas no increase in yields was realized from 1870 to 1930? The development of single-cross hybrids was partly the answer. But two other factors contributed.
•New testing methods: By the 1920s, many people were beginning to question the validity of the corn shows. One of the outspoken leaders of this anti-corn show group was Henry Wallace, an eventual founder of the Pioneer Hi-Bred Seed Company. Not only did some seed companies and state universities begin conducting yield tests to compare various strains of open-pollinated varieties, but these tests began to be designed using new statistical methods that produced more meaningful comparisons between different entries. This new reliance on yield testing helped to usher in the quick acceptance by farmers of the new higher yielding hybrids when they became available.

•New breeding methods: For centuries, farmers had made selections based on the performance of individual plants. The seed for the following year’s crop was taken from the most desirable ears from the most desirable open-pollinated plants. This type of selection is known as mass selection. The new professional breeders were using various methods of what is known as family selection. Mass selection and the new selection methods are topics of other lessons in this series.

anything sound familiar to today`s beef industry? mk
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:11 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Why were corn breeders in the mid- and late-20th century able to make such substantial genetic improvements for grain yield, whereas no increase in yields was realized from 1870 to 1930? The development of single-cross hybrids was partly the answer. But two other factors contributed.
•New testing methods: By the 1920s, many people were beginning to question the validity of the corn shows. One of the outspoken leaders of this anti-corn show group was Henry Wallace, an eventual founder of the Pioneer Hi-Bred Seed Company. Not only did some seed companies and state universities begin conducting yield tests to compare various strains of open-pollinated varieties, but these tests began to be designed using new statistical methods that produced more meaningful comparisons between different entries. This new reliance on yield testing helped to usher in the quick acceptance by farmers of the new higher yielding hybrids when they became available.

•New breeding methods: For centuries, farmers had made selections based on the performance of individual plants. The seed for the following year’s crop was taken from the most desirable ears from the most desirable open-pollinated plants. This type of selection is known as mass selection. The new professional breeders were using various methods of what is known as family selection. Mass selection and the new selection methods are topics of other lessons in this series.

anything sound familiar to today`s beef industry? mk

Nobody talks about phenotype more than those who don't use EPDs. "Statistics! We don't need no statistics!"

The cost of producing and testing inbred lines of corn are substantially less compared to cattle. Even swine and poultry producers don't really linebreed to the extent of corn breeders and the cost of discarding a line that does not work is much less in these industries with higher reproductive rates compared to beef cattle.

Maybe nothing changed the swine industry more than the emergence of breeding companies using the data to make better hogs for commercial producers, which was in contrast to the purebred breeders making their decisions on who won the show.

Crowning the winner of the NWSS used to be an important event. Although it was not recognized at the time, the creation of CAB changed how the "winner" would be selected. It would take over 15 years (or more for many of them) for the participants of the "feed and clip competition" crowd to see the changes. Today, top seedstock producers spend more time in the yards than on the hill. Even if the commercial producers are not there, the seedstock producers get to see several progeny instead of the outlier found on the hill. And they can talk to other producers who sell lots of commercial bulls.
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:02 am

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Why were corn breeders in the mid- and late-20th century able to make such substantial genetic improvements for grain yield, whereas no increase in yields was realized from 1870 to 1930? The development of single-cross hybrids was partly the answer. But two other factors contributed.
•New testing methods: By the 1920s, many people were beginning to question the validity of the corn shows. One of the outspoken leaders of this anti-corn show group was Henry Wallace, an eventual founder of the Pioneer Hi-Bred Seed Company. Not only did some seed companies and state universities begin conducting yield tests to compare various strains of open-pollinated varieties, but these tests began to be designed using new statistical methods that produced more meaningful comparisons between different entries. This new reliance on yield testing helped to usher in the quick acceptance by farmers of the new higher yielding hybrids when they became available.

•New breeding methods: For centuries, farmers had made selections based on the performance of individual plants. The seed for the following year’s crop was taken from the most desirable ears from the most desirable open-pollinated plants. This type of selection is known as mass selection. The new professional breeders were using various methods of what is known as family selection. Mass selection and the new selection methods are topics of other lessons in this series.

anything sound familiar to today`s beef industry? mk

Nobody talks about phenotype more than those who don't use EPDs. "Statistics! We don't need no statistics!"

The cost of producing and testing inbred lines of corn are substantially less compared to cattle. Even swine and poultry producers don't really linebreed to the extent of corn breeders and the cost of discarding a line that does not work is much less in these industries with higher reproductive rates compared to beef cattle.

Maybe nothing changed the swine industry more than the emergence of breeding companies using the data to make better hogs for commercial producers, which was in contrast to the purebred breeders making their decisions on who won the show.

Crowning the winner of the NWSS used to be an important event. Although it was not recognized at the time, the creation of CAB changed how the "winner" would be selected. It would take over 15 years (or more for many of them) for the participants of the "feed and clip competition" crowd to see the changes. Today, top seedstock producers spend more time in the yards than on the hill. Even if the commercial producers are not there, the seedstock producers get to see several progeny instead of the outlier found on the hill. And they can talk to other producers who sell lots of commercial bulls.

been lax in seeing this Dennis...so no need for breeds, just satistics?
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:32 am

I would not say that. I was just pointing out that poultry and swine breeding companies collect data. They may not share the results as their customers get a specific line of females which is crossed with a specific line of males to get specific results.

Creating those lines in beef cattle is much more costly than in corn.

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