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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:34 pm

Keystone wrote:
This makes sense to me:

I have come to believe the phenotypic selection criteria self-governs the level of inbreeding or degree of prepotency; that production levels are self-governed by the environment; that milk levels and carcass values are self-governed by their effect on composition and that composition has the greatest impact on functional reproductivity. So improving prepotency of composition once identified seems to be ‘priority 1′ at ANY preferred production level.” - Larry Leonhardt

I had to start this post because things seemed to stray from it a bit.




phenotypic selection self-governs function..or...what is merchandizable?
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shilow angus



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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:37 pm

Hilly wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
DNA holds the key to hasten the process of homozygousity evaluation; other wise, trust ancestry and breed it...why the hell keep pedigrees if you only trust the phenotype standing in front of you.

I find this to be a good point, Larry often reiterates the importance of the ancestry, making this is a long process ...

"As always, intimate familiarity of the ancestry is very important"

"It is unimportant as to how far any of us get, it is only the continuation of the constant direction that counts."


Bingo....Why linebreed if not to "fix a good type" How would you know a good type without familiarity of the ancestry? Why complicate the simple....
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:56 pm

If there are no non-inbred lines then they must all be inbred.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:46 am

df wrote:
If there are no non-inbred lines then they must all be inbred.
Dennis, you seem to have greater aversion to typing than even I...maybe someone else "gets it", but I don`t...so if you are having a discussion with me, you`ll have to put more effort into it for me to have a clue what you are saying....is a "balancer" a "line" or a crossbred?
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:48 am

shilow angus wrote:
Hilly wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
DNA holds the key to hasten the process of homozygousity evaluation; other wise, trust ancestry and breed it...why the hell keep pedigrees if you only trust the phenotype standing in front of you.

I find this to be a good point, Larry often reiterates the importance of the ancestry, making this is a long process ...

"As always, intimate familiarity of the ancestry is very important"

"It is unimportant as to how far any of us get, it is only the continuation of the constant direction that counts."


Bingo....Why linebreed if not to "fix a good type" How would you know a good type without familiarity of the ancestry? Why complicate the simple....

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:00 am

MKeeney wrote:
shilow angus wrote:
Hilly wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
DNA holds the key to hasten the process of homozygousity evaluation; other wise, trust ancestry and breed it...why the hell keep pedigrees if you only trust the phenotype standing in front of you.

I find this to be a good point, Larry often reiterates the importance of the ancestry, making this is a long process ...

"As always, intimate familiarity of the ancestry is very important"

"It is unimportant as to how far any of us get, it is only the continuation of the constant direction that counts."


Bingo....Why linebreed if not to "fix a good type" How would you know a good type without familiarity of the ancestry? Why complicate the simple....

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df



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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:45 am

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
If there are no non-inbred lines then they must all be inbred.
Dennis, you seem to have greater aversion to typing than even I...maybe someone else "gets it", but I don`t...so if you are having a discussion with me, you`ll have to put more effort into it for me to have a clue what you are saying....is a "balancer" a "line" or a crossbred?

Ha, you might be right!

I was just wondering how much you can reduce variation by producing inbreds compared to non-inbreds. You said it was considerable...then asked how there could be non-inbred lines. So I stated if it is not possible to make a non-inbred line, they must all be inbred. You are suppose to respond that there are different levels of inbreeding and that breeds are inbred by default, although you and I know the level of inbreeding is pretty mild for most cattle within the Angus breed.

The strict definition of inbreeding is that the alleles present are identical by descent, which means the animal in question has an ancestor in common on both the sire and dam side of the pedigree. A F1 would not be inbred because the parents come from two different breeds; this is how many hybrid/crossbred Balancer, SimAngus and Lim-Flex bulls are created. Recently there has been some F1 x F1 matings and even some creation of 2-breed "composites". Certainly without continuous introduction of other genes, these 2-breed composites would start to get inbred due to the small number available.

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shilow angus



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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:16 pm

MKeeney wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
shilow angus wrote:
Hilly wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
DNA holds the key to hasten the process of homozygousity evaluation; other wise, trust ancestry and breed it...why the hell keep pedigrees if you only trust the phenotype standing in front of you.

I find this to be a good point, Larry often reiterates the importance of the ancestry, making this is a long process ...

"As always, intimate familiarity of the ancestry is very important"

"It is unimportant as to how far any of us get, it is only the continuation of the constant direction that counts."


Bingo....Why linebreed if not to "fix a good type" How would you know a good type without familiarity of the ancestry? Why complicate the simple....



I like.....What year ?
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:30 pm

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
If there are no non-inbred lines then they must all be inbred.
Dennis, you seem to have greater aversion to typing than even I...maybe someone else "gets it", but I don`t...so if you are having a discussion with me, you`ll have to put more effort into it for me to have a clue what you are saying....is a "balancer" a "line" or a crossbred?

Ha, you might be right!

I was just wondering how much you can reduce variation by producing inbreds compared to non-inbreds. You said it was considerable...then asked how there could be non-inbred lines. So I stated if it is not possible to make a non-inbred line, they must all be inbred. You are suppose to respond that there are different levels of inbreeding and that breeds are inbred by default, although you and I know the level of inbreeding is pretty mild for most cattle within the Angus breed.

The strict definition of inbreeding is that the alleles present are identical by descent, which means the animal in question has an ancestor in common on both the sire and dam side of the pedigree. A F1 would not be inbred because the parents come from two different breeds; this is how many hybrid/crossbred Balancer, SimAngus and Lim-Flex bulls are created. Recently there has been some F1 x F1 matings and even some creation of 2-breed "composites". Certainly without continuous introduction of other genes, these 2-breed composites would start to get inbred due to the small number available.

considerable was a very brief sentence; and was offered in the context of breeds as inbred lines have less variation than the cattle population as a whole...some breeds much less variation than others for certain. Using the strict definition of inbreeding above, homozygousity and inbreeding are not the same since homozygousity can be created randomly...right?
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:54 pm

[/quote]
[/quote]


I like.....What year ?[/quote]
the bottom 5% ibc cow {pictured at 4} a daughter of the 53% ibc cow pictured above her
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:02 pm

Wonder if that made any lightbulbs come on?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:49 pm

like mother...like daughter?



if beauty is only skin deep, might not ugliness be only skin deep as well?
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shilow angus



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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:05 pm

MKeeney wrote:
[/quote]


I like.....What year ?[/quote]
the bottom 5% ibc cow {pictured at 4} a daughter of the 53% ibc cow pictured above her[/quote]

Top one eros daughter?
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:18 pm

shilow angus wrote:
MKeeney wrote:


I like.....What year ?[/quote]
the bottom 5% ibc cow {pictured at 4} a daughter of the 53% ibc cow pictured above her[/quote]

Top one eros daughter?[/quote]
yes, and what`s more...she`s her own grandma... Smile remember that old Renfro Valley kinda song?
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:25 pm

MKeeney wrote:

yes, and what`s more...she`s her own grandma... Smile remember that old Renfro Valley kinda song?

Silly question, but how can a female be her own grandmother?
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:37 pm

I wonder if her half -pretty/ half-ugly son sired by her 1st cousin might have been the carrier of her secret code that makes her daughters beautiful and his daughters would be as well?


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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:56 pm

dwight@steadfastbeef.com wrote:
MKeeney wrote:

yes, and what`s more...she`s her own grandma... Smile remember that old Renfro Valley kinda song?

Silly question, but how can a female be her own grandmother?

it is a bit complicated Smile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYlJH81dSiw
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:41 pm

and I wonder if another of her half-ugly daughters, the equilavent of a full sib mating, when flushed to her half sibling equivalent, might unlock the code and produce a litter of calves as beautiful as the one she`s raising?


oh well, only time, and eyes, will tell if regression could be one step backwards before going two steps forward...
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:21 pm

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
If there are no non-inbred lines then they must all be inbred.
Dennis, you seem to have greater aversion to typing than even I...maybe someone else "gets it", but I don`t...so if you are having a discussion with me, you`ll have to put more effort into it for me to have a clue what you are saying....is a "balancer" a "line" or a crossbred?

Ha, you might be right!

I was just wondering how much you can reduce variation by producing inbreds compared to non-inbreds. You said it was considerable...then asked how there could be non-inbred lines. So I stated if it is not possible to make a non-inbred line, they must all be inbred. You are suppose to respond that there are different levels of inbreeding and that breeds are inbred by default, although you and I know the level of inbreeding is pretty mild for most cattle within the Angus breed.

The strict definition of inbreeding is that the alleles present are identical by descent, which means the animal in question has an ancestor in common on both the sire and dam side of the pedigree. A F1 would not be inbred because the parents come from two different breeds; this is how many hybrid/crossbred Balancer, SimAngus and Lim-Flex bulls are created. Recently there has been some F1 x F1 matings and even some creation of 2-breed "composites". Certainly without continuous introduction of other genes, these 2-breed composites would start to get inbred due to the small number available.

considerable was a very brief sentence; and was offered in the context of breeds as inbred lines have less variation than the cattle population as a whole...some breeds much less variation than others for certain. Using the strict definition of inbreeding above, homozygousity and inbreeding are not the same since homozygousity can be created randomly...right?

That is correct. An animal may be homozygous and thus, identical in state (for example, big A big A) but not necessarily identical by descent (big A big A because of a common ancestor).
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shilow angus



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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Sun Nov 21, 2010 6:34 am

MKeeney wrote:
shilow angus wrote:
MKeeney wrote:


I like.....What year ?
the bottom 5% ibc cow {pictured at 4} a daughter of the 53% ibc cow pictured above her[/quote]

Top one eros daughter?[/quote]
yes, and what`s more...she`s her own grandma... Smile remember that old Renfro Valley kinda song? [/quote]


Not only do I remeber the song....I remeber the heifer....I also get the reason you posted the pics.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:14 am





Tom, above is another inbred full sister; calf at side by Unwanted...combining inbreds with Unwanted`s, puts one`s marketing program in severe jeopardy Smile ...so knowing your cattle, but more importantly, knowing you, I have to smile thinking about you saying you had built your herd from the culls you had purchased here...now my breeding program has regressed to the point that you can build your herd around the bulls I will give you if you dare use a calf like pictured to breed some heifers Smile

when ambition ends, happiness begins...Thomas Merton
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shilow angus



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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:36 pm

MKeeney wrote:




Tom, above is another inbred full sister; calf at side by Unwanted...combining inbreds with Unwanted`s, puts one`s marketing program in severe jeopardy Smile ...so knowing your cattle, but more importantly, knowing you, I have to smile thinking about you saying you had built your herd from the culls you had purchased here...now my breeding program has regressed to the point that you can build your herd around the bulls I will give you if you dare use a calf like pictured to breed some heifers Smile

when ambition ends, happiness begins...Thomas Merton

I would great to sample the gene pool Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:20 pm

in this inbreeding project; full sibs of somewhat different conformation were mated...the et flush produced three heifers and a bull...of the three heifers, one favored the sire side, and two more favored the dam side; the bull favored the dam side...the female favoring the sire side was flushed to her full brother {second full sib mating in the lineage} and the progeny deterioated while all favored the orginal dam side...so heeding
I have come to believe the phenotypic selection criteria self-governs the level of inbreeding or degree of prepotency;

would have caused us pause had we not been experimenting how far can you go and still maintain fertile animals...and we would have stopped inbreeding the most fault free of the full sib daughters...25% plus IBC...I can`t find her pic, but her daughter below {20%plus IBC } very much resembles her dam



While not quite what I prefer; a very suitable speciman to continue with..., the regression experienced throughout the experiment no big deal; because I hope to have shown; restoration is just one cross away...or as above, perhaps just lowering the inbreeding/prepotency level to something more functional...the two young 20% inbreds up further above have been flushed to create approximately 16% IBC by a proven bull...
everyone should tight breed something in the herd...or, as I mentioned earlier, get some pigs to inbred Smile
how convenient my advice...so happens, we have inbred pigs for sale...how many did you say? Smile

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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:33 am

if I want to really experience inbreeding and learn some need to get two rabbits. cheaper then cows, eat the mistakes, live on table garbage and breed like well you know Exclamation
cattle take to long, cost to much, and cant eat all my mistakes so I must learn from someone who has all ready been there.
thanks for this forum.
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OAK LANE FARM



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PostSubject: Re: Inbred selection   Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:41 pm

larkota wrote:
if I want to really experience inbreeding and learn some need to get two rabbits. cheaper then cows, eat the mistakes, live on table garbage and breed like well you know Exclamation
cattle take to long, cost to much, and cant eat all my mistakes so I must learn from someone who has all ready been there.
thanks for this forum.
I JUST OBSERVE THE NEIGHBORS- Inbreeding ain't all good!!!!
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