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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:33 pm

[quote="MKeeney"]a few in the registered industry are beginning to use more accurate terminology; genomic ready or not...

Who were the volume buyers; New players lance?

They once were called new breeders; such a disgrace to the word...[/quote


I believe there was a certain reason higher quality lots were costing as much as they did at this particular auction. Sad Sad

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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:52 pm

Tom D wrote:
PatB wrote:
Tom D wrote:
PatB wrote:
Why do we need computers on tractors and all the electronic sensors on equipment? Genomics is another tool to be used or mis-used at the hands of people who raise cattle if that is there wish.

Pat, how do you use the tools of A.I. , EPDs, and Genomic Testing to more profitably produce feeder cattle in Maine?

AI has allow this operations to use genetics that we never could afford in the walking form. The trucking cost alone would make buying a live bull prohitive before the price of the bull even at Keeney prices. The better genetics have improved wean weights and quality of the cattle for breeding stock and feeder calfs. The cost to feed a 1200 lb cow if she weans a 400 lb calf or a 550 lb calf in the herd is the same. Some buy new bulls or females to add desired traits to their herd I use AI to bring in new genetics/traits. EPD's are a way to sort thru potential AI sires and home raised herd sires. Genomics are a way to have a little more accurate epd's and get insights into hard to measure traits.

A rough guess there is approximately 40,000 to 50,000 cows,bulls and calfs sold in the state a year including dairyaccording to beef checkoff receipts. There is not a large market for beef seedstock or a ready source for it. AI is a affordable source of genetics. Genomics and EPD's are a way to sort the available genetics to find animals that should work under your management style.

Has every AI sire or natural sire used on this operation been a success "NO!!". Have we made progress in the overall quality of the herd and feeder calfs "YES".


So you want a herd of 1200 lb cows that wean 550 lb calves? How much do the mothers of your A.I. sires weigh? You have no idea, do you? Pat, in 5 years you're still going to be weaning 550 lb calves......................from 1600 lb cows. Did you ever wonder why your A.I. calves are bigger? (Besides the fact that they're Septembers instead of Novembers)

NO PAT, NO! DON'T SIT ON THAT!


Tom

What is the weight of Movin on's dam, Just Rights dam, Cedar Ridges dam or 004, 6595, or chisums dam's. What was the frame score and weight of last years calf crops sire's dam? Who said that the AI calves are bigger then the home raised sires at the same age? What is the weight of a 5 year old 004 daughter under my management style. Selection takes care of the large animals either at weaning or later in life if the fail to keep their end of the bargain.
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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:16 pm

[quote="W.T"]
MKeeney wrote:
a few in the registered industry are beginning to use more accurate terminology; genomic ready or not...

Who were the volume buyers; New players lance?

They once were called new breeders; such a disgrace to the word...[/quote


I believe there was a certain reason higher quality lots were costing as much as they did at this particular auction. Sad Sad


higher quality wasn`t the reason? Smile
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:12 pm

PatB wrote:

What is the weight of Movin on's dam, Just Rights dam, Cedar Ridges dam or 004, 6595, or chisums dam's. What was the frame score and weight of last years calf crops sire's dam? Who said that the AI calves are bigger then the home raised sires at the same age? What is the weight of a 5 year old 004 daughter under my management style. Selection takes care of the large animals either at weaning or later in life if the fail to keep their end of the bargain.

So it's back to the old sort, sort, sort. Combining that with your improving grass management how much can you be sure that "the better genetics have improved wean weights and quality of the cattle for breeding stock and feeder calfs" Maybe you need another EPD to determine "genetic contribution"?
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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:13 pm

[quote="MKeeney"]
W.T wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
a few in the registered industry are beginning to use more accurate terminology; genomic ready or not...

Who were the volume buyers; New players lance?

They once were called new breeders; such a disgrace to the word...[/quote


I believe there was a certain reason higher quality lots were costing as much as they did at this particular auction. Sad Sad


higher quality wasn`t the reason? Smile

hmmmm

Quote :
It was mostly buyers who limestone had purchased a lot at their production sale the last couple years.

in other words, purchased and paid have different meanings in the registered business...
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:13 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
PatB wrote:

What is the weight of Movin on's dam, Just Rights dam, Cedar Ridges dam or 004, 6595, or chisums dam's. What was the frame score and weight of last years calf crops sire's dam? Who said that the AI calves are bigger then the home raised sires at the same age? What is the weight of a 5 year old 004 daughter under my management style. Selection takes care of the large animals either at weaning or later in life if the fail to keep their end of the bargain.

So it's back to the old sort, sort, sort. Combining that with your improving grass management how much can you be sure that "the better genetics have improved wean weights and quality of the cattle for breeding stock and feeder calfs" Maybe you need another EPD to determine "genetic contribution"?

It is a sort every year at weaning time. Keep the number of heifers that you want/have feed for and the rest go for feeders and keep back several bulls and the rest are steers. The quality of the forage has not improved as much as the acreage has increased along with the cattle numbers and the length of the grazing season.

I take it you all run closed herds with no new genetics brought in Very Happy so why should your bull customers ever buy another bull just breed the bull back to his offspring until he dies then use a son to breed the herd and so on.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:41 pm

PatB wrote:

I take it you all run closed herds with no new genetics brought in Very Happy so why should your bull customers ever buy another bull just breed the bull back to his offspring until he dies then use a son to breed the herd and so on.

Because they are commercial cattlemen using them in a crossbred situation Exclamation
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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:16 am

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by sugarsprings

One thing about it Chris was a lot of fun while it lasted.

Was really surprised when we went to his first sale. Beautiful facility. We found a bottle of wine that was from the Limestone winery and gave it to him as a sale barn warming gift. Gave it to Chris and he said it really meant a lot to him as we were the only ones who gave him a sale barn warming gift that he didn't buy 100K of cattle from. He then said don't buy anything today as it is going to get stupid on bidding. He said I am living proof that if you want to have a 3 million dollar sale all you need to do is spend 5 million buying cattle. Living proof of hitting too many dry holes.

"Are you part of the problem or part of the solution"
www.sugarspringsranch.com/
Tom

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And this put the sale into prespective before it ever began. Just another CON.



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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:28 am

here`s Pat a cow...
Quote :
Here is a cell phone photo of the Jackie Y159 that I took this evening. Look what her EPD profile did this week!
Schafer N5259 Jackie Y159 Reg: AAA 17044753
yes OT, we do need registration numbers when we are breeding for animals most different from the average...



one good thing about her use, she`s in a feedlot where high $b heifers ought to be...

and again my question...

why are you Pat, and seemingly so many of us, having such a difficult time determining what kind of cow to breed?
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:20 am

MKeeney wrote:
here`s Pat a cow...
Quote :
Here is a cell phone photo of the Jackie Y159 that I took this evening. Look what her EPD profile did this week!
Schafer N5259 Jackie Y159 Reg: AAA 17044753
yes OT, we do need registration numbers when we are breeding for animals most different from the average...



one good thing about her use, she`s in a feedlot where high $b heifers ought to be...

and again my question...

why are you Pat, and seemingly so many of us, having such a difficult time determining what kind of cow to breed?

I am not having having a hard time determining what kind of cow to breed. I am living with the legacy of past decisions. That AI bull used or that COW purchased in the mid 90's still have a impact on the herd directly or thru their offspring. The price of cull cow beef has made it a lot more enjoyable to tweek the herd to my desires. The cows here only have to please me and the feeder calf buyer in that order.

The pedigree on that heifer is very helpful in determining how fast to run in the opposite direction. Very Happy run pat run Very Happy Very Happy
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:36 am

Pat, I don’t understand what you’re tweaking... Is there no cow in your herd that pleases you? I’m assuming there is, so to me you already have the genes you need to make more cows without adding more distribution through tweaking.

I found cows of most any shape or size, given the right environment can do what you ask of them, all you have to do is sort them.

When you make the statement that...
“The better genetics have improved wean weights and quality of the cattle for breeding stock and feeder calfs.”

I am unclear as to how the better genetics were utilized, were they mixed in and then sorted back out or did they remain separate?

I would think results of tweaking would be easier to measure if you first have a controlled constant to base your experiments on.

I have no doubt someday the EPD’s and Genomics will confirm what my cows have been saying all along.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:35 am

Hilly wrote:
Pat, I don’t understand what you’re tweaking... Is there no cow in your herd that pleases you? I’m assuming there is, so to me you already have the genes you need to make more cows without adding more distribution through tweaking.

I found cows of most any shape or size, given the right environment can do what you ask of them, all you have to do is sort them.

When you make the statement that...
“The better genetics have improved wean weights and quality of the cattle for breeding stock and feeder calfs.”

I am unclear as to how the better genetics were utilized, were they mixed in and then sorted back out or did they remain separate?

I would think results of tweaking would be easier to measure if you first have a controlled constant to base your experiments on.

I have no doubt someday the EPD’s and Genomics will confirm what my cows have been saying all along.

If I said I turned out keeney or shoshone bulls then there would no problem with this group but since I said I used AI then there is all sorts of challenges with bulls used.
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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:44 pm

[quote="PatB"]
MKeeney wrote:
here`s Pat a cow...
Quote :
Here is a cell phone photo of the Jackie Y159 that I took this evening. Look what her EPD profile did this week!
Schafer N5259 Jackie Y159 Reg: AAA 17044753
yes OT, we do need registration numbers when we are breeding for animals most different from the average...



one good thing about her use, she`s in a feedlot where high $b heifers ought to be...

and again my question...

why are you Pat, and seemingly so many of us, having such a difficult time determining what kind of cow to breed?

I am not having having a hard time determining what kind of cow to breed. I am living with the legacy of past decisions. That AI bull used or that COW purchased in the mid 90's still have a impact on the herd directly or thru their offspring. The price of cull cow beef has made it a lot more enjoyable to tweek the herd to my desires. The cows here only have to please me and the feeder calf buyer in that order.

The pedigree on that heifer is very helpful in determining how fast to run in the opposite direction. Very Happy run pat run Very Happy Very Happy [/quote]

really? amazing Exclamation what can you tell, what familarity with characteristics, or what do the numbers tell you...to run away from that heifer?
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:48 pm

PatB wrote:
Hilly wrote:
Pat, I don’t understand what you’re tweaking... Is there no cow in your herd that pleases you? I’m assuming there is, so to me you already have the genes you need to make more cows without adding more distribution through tweaking.

I found cows of most any shape or size, given the right environment can do what you ask of them, all you have to do is sort them.

When you make the statement that...
“The better genetics have improved wean weights and quality of the cattle for breeding stock and feeder calfs.”

I am unclear as to how the better genetics were utilized, were they mixed in and then sorted back out or did they remain separate?

I would think results of tweaking would be easier to measure if you first have a controlled constant to base your experiments on.

I have no doubt someday the EPD’s and Genomics will confirm what my cows have been saying all along.

If I said I turned out keeney or shoshone bulls then there would no problem with this group but since I said I used AI then there is all sorts of challenges with bulls used.

I don’t care what genetics you use and for me it has nothing to do with Shoshone /Keeney bulls or cows and everything to do with the philosophy behind the breeding programs.

We all have to start somewhere; I think closing populations of seed stock for the purpose of recovering the benefits of heterosis in a more systematic approach is a better way then what I was doing before.
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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:48 pm

On the contray Pat there are keeney bulls that you run from as well. They are just not advertised as something great, you are told the truth before you invest your time and resources.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:04 pm

[quote="MKeeney"]
PatB wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
here`s Pat a cow...
Quote :
Here is a cell phone photo of the Jackie Y159 that I took this evening. Look what her EPD profile did this week!
Schafer N5259 Jackie Y159 Reg: AAA 17044753
yes OT, we do need registration numbers when we are breeding for animals most different from the average...



one good thing about her use, she`s in a feedlot where high $b heifers ought to be...

and again my question...

why are you Pat, and seemingly so many of us, having such a difficult time determining what kind of cow to breed?

I am not having having a hard time determining what kind of cow to breed. I am living with the legacy of past decisions. That AI bull used or that COW purchased in the mid 90's still have a impact on the herd directly or thru their offspring. The price of cull cow beef has made it a lot more enjoyable to tweek the herd to my desires. The cows here only have to please me and the feeder calf buyer in that order.

The pedigree on that heifer is very helpful in determining how fast to run in the opposite direction. Very Happy run pat run Very Happy Very Happy [/quote]

really? amazing Exclamation what can you tell, what familarity with characteristics, or what do the numbers tell you...to run away from that heifer?

"GAR" do not need to see anything else. The only 140 pound calf that I have seen out of an angus heifer was sired by a GAR calving ease bull and it was not fun pulling it.

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:43 pm

[quote="PatB"]
MKeeney wrote:
PatB wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
here`s Pat a cow...
Quote :
Here is a cell phone photo of the Jackie Y159 that I took this evening. Look what her EPD profile did this week!
Schafer N5259 Jackie Y159 Reg: AAA 17044753
yes OT, we do need registration numbers when we are breeding for animals most different from the average...



one good thing about her use, she`s in a feedlot where high $b heifers ought to be...

and again my question...

why are you Pat, and seemingly so many of us, having such a difficult time determining what kind of cow to breed?

I am not having having a hard time determining what kind of cow to breed. I am living with the legacy of past decisions. That AI bull used or that COW purchased in the mid 90's still have a impact on the herd directly or thru their offspring. The price of cull cow beef has made it a lot more enjoyable to tweek the herd to my desires. The cows here only have to please me and the feeder calf buyer in that order.

The pedigree on that heifer is very helpful in determining how fast to run in the opposite direction. Very Happy run pat run Very Happy Very Happy [/quote]

really? amazing Exclamation what can you tell, what familarity with characteristics, or what do the numbers tell you...to run away from that heifer?

"GAR" do not need to see anything else. The only 140 pound calf that I have seen out of an angus heifer was sired by a GAR calving ease bull and it was not fun pulling it.

Oh really; one calf defines a herd? was the heifer GAR sired ? could she be the culprit? at least we don`t have to DNA her to verify she was the dam? or could it have been an implanted ET calf and she`s not as guilty? what breed was the dam? heterosis BW effect?? was the dead calf send to AAA to verify parentage and test for genetic challenges? ...maybe you should insist on variation scores that comprise the epds?
The possibilities to make the simple complicated are endless...
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:35 pm

[quote="MKeeney"]
PatB wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
PatB wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
here`s Pat a cow...
Quote :
Here is a cell phone photo of the Jackie Y159 that I took this evening. Look what her EPD profile did this week!
Schafer N5259 Jackie Y159 Reg: AAA 17044753
yes OT, we do need registration numbers when we are breeding for animals most different from the average...



one good thing about her use, she`s in a feedlot where high $b heifers ought to be...

and again my question...

why are you Pat, and seemingly so many of us, having such a difficult time determining what kind of cow to breed?

I am not having having a hard time determining what kind of cow to breed. I am living with the legacy of past decisions. That AI bull used or that COW purchased in the mid 90's still have a impact on the herd directly or thru their offspring. The price of cull cow beef has made it a lot more enjoyable to tweek the herd to my desires. The cows here only have to please me and the feeder calf buyer in that order.

The pedigree on that heifer is very helpful in determining how fast to run in the opposite direction. Very Happy run pat run Very Happy Very Happy [/quote]

really? amazing Exclamation what can you tell, what familarity with characteristics, or what do the numbers tell you...to run away from that heifer?

"GAR" do not need to see anything else. The only 140 pound calf that I have seen out of an angus heifer was sired by a GAR calving ease bull and it was not fun pulling it.

Oh really; one calf defines a herd? was the heifer GAR sired ? could she be the culprit? at least we don`t have to DNA her to verify she was the dam? or could it have been an implanted ET calf and she`s not as guilty? what breed was the dam? heterosis BW effect?? was the dead calf send to AAA to verify parentage and test for genetic challenges? ...maybe you should insist on variation scores that comprise the epds?
The possibilities to make the simple complicated are endless...

Never flushed or implanted ET's here. The heifer and sisters all disappeared from the herd in 1 to 3 seasons. I do not believe there is a descendant left of that group of heifers but some of the dams are the foundation matrons of the herd. We have 2 animals that trace back to GAR genetics and they will produce seedless fruit until they mess up and go to beef. The few GAR AI bulls used here have left less the satisfactory results and the modern GAR animals hold no interest for me.
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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:47 pm

but they have great high accuracy EPD``s...so what went wrong?
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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:41 pm

Hilly wrote:

I don’t care what genetics you use and for me it has nothing to do with Shoshone /Keeney bulls or cows and everything to do with the philosophy behind the breeding programs.

We all have to start somewhere; I think closing populations of seed stock for the purpose of recovering the benefits of heterosis in a more systematic approach is a better way then what I was doing before.

I think what Craig wrote here is worth repeating...not for Pat (as I think it's falling on deaf ears) but for everyone else. Good stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:00 pm

Chris that is some well thought out words By Craig. It makes a man think for a bit.
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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:30 am

MVCatt wrote:
Hilly wrote:

I don’t care what genetics you use and for me it has nothing to do with Shoshone /Keeney bulls or cows and everything to do with the philosophy behind the breeding programs.

We all have to start somewhere; I think closing populations of seed stock for the purpose of recovering the benefits of heterosis in a more systematic approach is a better way then what I was doing before.

I think what Craig wrote here is worth repeating...not for Pat (as I think it's falling on deaf ears) but for everyone else. Good stuff.

It`s most always for someone else; we have a lot of new reader dots jumping up all over the country when I check the board...and it`s the same with potential Tru-Line potential breeders; we will network North America with them someday...
I think I`ve about rode this horse into the ground; I thought about signing off on it when I read Craig`s post; but squeezed it for the last drop... Smile
why do we have such a difficult time determining a type of cow to breed? first, there`s no accurate quantitative difference because we don`t measure input, so genetic advantages/disadvantages are blurred over by feed...however qualitative differences{udders, temperament, feet etc} while easily defined in one`s own herd; don`t lend themselves to across herd numerical differentiation...
second, it`s against human nature to stabalize when we are taught to "be all you can be" ; and thirdly, there`s always a promoter telling how his cow type is better, and we all always have a cow that is an exception like the jimmers, that shows one can exist, "if they just all could be like her"...but they are the freaks that aren`t readily repeatable by breeding, only be chance from, as Falloon noted, "come from anywhere"...and I add "disappear as easily as they appeared"...only that, that is repeatable often, should be termed "breeding", but consistency is defined as a failure by an industry always promoting change as improvement while calling itself "a breed"....those that can withstand that peer pressure, are on the road less traveled...be happy, because you can build as fast as your genes will let you...unfettered by anyone, or even anything including money, the only extra and greatest expense of breeding is time...
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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:38 am

a fourth came to mind...no one besides our beginning Tru-liners are breeding a cow with the intentions of being used in a complementary cross breeding system...the mainstream is about breed competition to keep that bureaucracy fed ; not breed complementarity...
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:13 pm

I think that the reason that most commercial and purebred breeders lose sight of the kind of cow that they want is the lack of consistancy that is in the mainstream genepools that have been bred for the last 50 years. With the average age of most of these people they have never seen anything different in their lifetime so it is hard them to realize that it is a peridigm in their mind that it can be anything different sorting for a phenotype instead of breeding for it.

As for using Truelines for a crossbreeding system that is simple and profatable states that the same peridigm in their mind is wrong, it is a hard pill for a prideful human to digest.

As the future goes on it will not matter to me as an indiviual what other people think, but what is more profitable and sustainable on our ranch.

With our experience and peridigms in our mind, the only thing that we recieve from any breeding program that is free profit is the 75lbs we recieve when we use our maternal trueline Shoshone crossed with any other tight bred paternal line of cattle. ( it may not be lbs but it may be just $ but it is free because of the heterosis you recieve) The rest will be paid for hook, line and sinker. Or feed, longevity,loss of lbs, fertility, udders, and the list goes on.

We have been away a while but everything is dry and fine here in Central Amercia or Hammett Idaho Bob H
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:30 pm

Bob H wrote:

As the future goes on it will not matter to me as an indiviual what other people think, but what is more profitable and sustainable on our ranch.


Very Happy cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers
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