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Kent Powell



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Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Genetic Evaluation....   Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:19 pm

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:49 pm

Kent Powell wrote:
http://issuu.com/edje/docs/charolaissource2012

page 12

sos? I do believe EPDS HAVE GREAT MERIT FOR TERMINAL DIFFERENCE MEASUREMENT...
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Gus



Posts : 35
Join date : 2010-10-10
Location : Southeast Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:40 am

Question They might have some merit, but how much is my question. Good common sense goes along way, but there is a lot of brain washing going on. study scratch
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PatB



Posts : 455
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:57 am

The charlais are trying to get producers to collect phenotype data and submit it to the association. They should also get the producers to genomic test there herd bulls to increase their genotype database. Genomic data is almost worthless without phenotype data identify markers of interest and help predict effect of that marker.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:02 am

PatB wrote:
The charlais are trying to get producers to collect phenotype data and submit it to the association. They should also get the producers to genomic test there herd bulls to increase their genotype database. Genomic data is almost worthless without phenotype data identify markers of interest and help predict effect of that marker.
and maybe more worthless with it; because then it can be sold has having some merit...why do we need new and maybe, when breeders won`t even apply the known...
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PatB



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Age : 53
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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:25 am

Why do we need computers on tractors and all the electronic sensors on equipment? Genomics is another tool to be used or mis-used at the hands of people who raise cattle if that is there wish.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:41 am

[quote="PatB"]Why do we need computers on tractors and all the electronic sensors on equipment?

because they are reasonably reliable

Genomics is another tool to be used or mis-used at the hands of people who raise cattle if that is there wish.

it`s not a tool; it`s a concept...
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Kent Powell



Posts : 606
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:36 am

"The bull with the higher accuracy value is more predictable..."

THE most misguided internalization in all of cattle breeding. Accuracy replaces true predictability because the definition was changed to fit the system. Predictability of what? The "best" bulls are now, by definition of their own "superiority" and their ability to sire calves which are More Different, less predictable, yet they are now called predictable because their numbers are not expected to change much due to the sheer Bulk and scope of their use. Predictability of The average has replaced the predictability in regards to their ability to cluster around the average with fewer deviants. Clever little reversal.
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:53 pm

PatB wrote:
Why do we need computers on tractors and all the electronic sensors on equipment? Genomics is another tool to be used or mis-used at the hands of people who raise cattle if that is there wish.

Pat, how do you use the tools of A.I. , EPDs, and Genomic Testing to more profitably produce feeder cattle in Maine?
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Kent Powell



Posts : 606
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Sun Sep 23, 2012 1:12 pm

Since I run tractors until they are well past broken in, I prefer as few electronics as possible. My fuel guage is a Powell Ranch sorting stick. It is cheaper, more reliable and no installation necessary. None of the electronics work anymore.

One size does not fit all. I don't have a need for technology in them beyond reliability.
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PatB



Posts : 455
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Sun Sep 23, 2012 1:53 pm

Tom D wrote:
PatB wrote:
Why do we need computers on tractors and all the electronic sensors on equipment? Genomics is another tool to be used or mis-used at the hands of people who raise cattle if that is there wish.

Pat, how do you use the tools of A.I. , EPDs, and Genomic Testing to more profitably produce feeder cattle in Maine?

AI has allow this operations to use genetics that we never could afford in the walking form. The trucking cost alone would make buying a live bull prohitive before the price of the bull even at Keeney prices. The better genetics have improved wean weights and quality of the cattle for breeding stock and feeder calfs. The cost to feed a 1200 lb cow if she weans a 400 lb calf or a 550 lb calf in the herd is the same. Some buy new bulls or females to add desired traits to their herd I use AI to bring in new genetics/traits. EPD's are a way to sort thru potential AI sires and home raised herd sires. Genomics are a way to have a little more accurate epd's and get insights into hard to measure traits.

A rough guess there is approximately 40,000 to 50,000 cows,bulls and calfs sold in the state a year including dairyaccording to beef checkoff receipts. There is not a large market for beef seedstock or a ready source for it. AI is a affordable source of genetics. Genomics and EPD's are a way to sort the available genetics to find animals that should work under your management style.

Has every AI sire or natural sire used on this operation been a success "NO!!". Have we made progress in the overall quality of the herd and feeder calfs "YES".
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PatB



Posts : 455
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Sun Sep 23, 2012 1:56 pm

Kent Powell wrote:
Since I run tractors until they are well past broken in, I prefer as few electronics as possible. My fuel guage is a Powell Ranch sorting stick. It is cheaper, more reliable and no installation necessary. None of the electronics work anymore.

One size does not fit all. I don't have a need for technology in them beyond reliability.

I prefer tractors and implements to be free of computers, monitors and as much electonics as possible.
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Austin Risty



Posts : 4
Join date : 2011-05-25

PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:58 pm

What traits are your cows missing? What are hard to measure traits? If they are hard to measure why select for them in a catalog? What is a little more accurate for EPD's? What are the EPD's of an animal that should work in your environment? The only two words in three paragraphs that made any logic was "rough guess"
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PatB



Posts : 455
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:10 pm

Austin Risty wrote:
What traits are your cows missing?

I would not say they are missing as fine tweaking the future offspring. I am looking for more early growth with a 1200 to 1400lb mature weight for females.

What are hard to measure traits?

I would like to boost marbleing and the ability to flesh out when calf is weaned (fat cover) .


If they are hard to measure why select for them in a catalog?

I have 2 choices for genetics under my current management scheme AI or a home raised yearling sire. For biosecurity reasons no live outside animals are brought onto the farm. We have a short AI season then the home raised sire is turned out to breed the rest.

.

What is a little more accurate for EPD's? What are the EPD's of an animal that should work in your environment? The only two words in three paragraphs that made any logic was "rough guess"

Genomic testing will raise the accuracy of EPD's by 10 plus percent for low accuracy animals and give me basic carcass epd's along with docility. I have not identified the perfect range of epd's for my enviroment.
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Gus



Posts : 35
Join date : 2010-10-10
Location : Southeast Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:53 pm

PatB wrote:
Has every AI sire or natural sire used on this operation been a success "NO!!". Have we made progress in the overall quality of the herd and feeder calfs "YES".

Would you credit EPD's for your success? Plus if tractors guided systems or computer were only 90% accurate would your put much stock in them. Say you used it for planting your field and it left 10% unplanted would you think it a success just because you didn't have to steer it in the field?

Don't get me wrong I think A.I. is a great tool, maybe (probably) over used. None the less I would hate to be without it, and maybe I can say the same about epd's, but personal experience showed me EPD's are lacking and are not a useful and they are promoted as being. Now I've been told I can't knock a system that has been proven time an again, when I'm basing my results on 1 or 2 offspring. Which is probably true, except it has been about a 50/50 where I say the results are close to what the EPd's said and they wasn't close. Therefore, I still say it is close to s crap shoot.

Pat, because I know you used this bull as I did. "Bandolier Eston Durness 42B" his EPD profile is this

This bull has a 80+% acc on most traits. I only had 5 daughters, but 4 out of the 5 gave more milk than needed. The 5th was near perfect. Select Sires promoted him as a calving ease sire, I used him on heifers, can't recall ever pulling a calf. The 4 daughters that milked heavy were also hard keepers. Overall I thought he was a good bull his daughter lasted and were good producers, I just don't agree with the numbers on his EPD, and for the record the bulls I was using at the same time were Rito 149, Rito 72, Form of Wye, RGA Eileenmere 44. I thought their growth rate were all comparable.

I really don't have a problem with EPD's I just can't promote a system I see flawed, probably works on single trait selection in some cases, but the benefits for me personally has been very minimal. Therefore I will not promote them, as being gods gift to the commercial cattle men and women. Genomics may be the missing link, I just haven't bought into it yet.
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PatB



Posts : 455
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:23 pm

Gus wrote:
PatB wrote:
Has every AI sire or natural sire used on this operation been a success "NO!!". Have we made progress in the overall quality of the herd and feeder calfs "YES".

Would you credit EPD's for your success? Plus if tractors guided systems or computer were only 90% accurate would your put much stock in them. Say you used it for planting your field and it left 10% unplanted would you think it a success just because you didn't have to steer it in the field?

I would not trust computer guided tractors if they were %100 accurate unless the system has a way to handle equipment around rocks and other dangers that appear in my hay fields. I do not seed any row crops anymore


Don't get me wrong I think A.I. is a great tool, maybe (probably) over used. None the less I would hate to be without it, and maybe I can say the same about epd's, but personal experience showed me EPD's are lacking and are not a useful and they are promoted as being. Now I've been told I can't knock a system that has been proven time an again, when I'm basing my results on 1 or 2 offspring. Which is probably true, except it has been about a 50/50 where I say the results are close to what the EPd's said and they wasn't close. Therefore, I still say it is close to s crap shoot.

Pat, because I know you used this bull as I did. "Bandolier Eston Durness 42B" his EPD profile is this

This bull has a 80+% acc on most traits. I only had 5 daughters, but 4 out of the 5 gave more milk than needed. The 5th was near perfect. Select Sires promoted him as a calving ease sire, I used him on heifers, can't recall ever pulling a calf. The 4 daughters that milked heavy were also hard keepers. Overall I thought he was a good bull his daughter lasted and were good producers, I just don't agree with the numbers on his EPD, and for the record the bulls I was using at the same time were Rito 149, Rito 72, Form of Wye, RGA Eileenmere 44. I thought their growth rate were all comparable.

I really don't have a problem with EPD's I just can't promote a system I see flawed, probably works on single trait selection in some cases, but the benefits for me personally has been very minimal. Therefore I will not promote them, as being gods gift to the commercial cattle men and women. Genomics may be the missing link, I just haven't bought into it yet.

EPD's and genomics are not god's gift to commercial cattlemen but grass and rain are. Very Happy Expected Progeny differences is a estiminate of what average should be not what each calf will do. One must take the dam's genetics in account to as that could over ride the bulls genetics. We had several cow families that had 100 plus pound calves regardless what they were bred too. EPD's are a tool to be used to help sort animals no different then visual appraisal or any other method you use to select new genetics. Genomics holds promise but has a far way to go to be really useful to commercial folks or breeders of angus cattle that are not related to main stream genetics.

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Gus



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Location : Southeast Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:13 pm

I'm well aware the EPD's being average and also just being a estimate. I guess I'm just bitter cause when I used them and chase after what I thought I needed, I mostly got what I wasn't looking for, and they never averaged out. I probably just didn't know how to use the tool Sad
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PatB



Posts : 455
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Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:20 pm

Gus wrote:
I'm well aware the EPD's being average and also just being a estimate. I guess I'm just bitter cause when I used them and chase after what I thought I needed, I mostly got what I wasn't looking for, and they never averaged out. I probably just didn't know how to use the tool Sad

It could be that the supplier of the genetics had a heavily used feed truck. Evil or Very Mad
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:11 pm

PatB wrote:
Tom D wrote:
PatB wrote:
Why do we need computers on tractors and all the electronic sensors on equipment? Genomics is another tool to be used or mis-used at the hands of people who raise cattle if that is there wish.

Pat, how do you use the tools of A.I. , EPDs, and Genomic Testing to more profitably produce feeder cattle in Maine?

AI has allow this operations to use genetics that we never could afford in the walking form. The trucking cost alone would make buying a live bull prohitive before the price of the bull even at Keeney prices. The better genetics have improved wean weights and quality of the cattle for breeding stock and feeder calfs. The cost to feed a 1200 lb cow if she weans a 400 lb calf or a 550 lb calf in the herd is the same. Some buy new bulls or females to add desired traits to their herd I use AI to bring in new genetics/traits. EPD's are a way to sort thru potential AI sires and home raised herd sires. Genomics are a way to have a little more accurate epd's and get insights into hard to measure traits.

A rough guess there is approximately 40,000 to 50,000 cows,bulls and calfs sold in the state a year including dairyaccording to beef checkoff receipts. There is not a large market for beef seedstock or a ready source for it. AI is a affordable source of genetics. Genomics and EPD's are a way to sort the available genetics to find animals that should work under your management style.

Has every AI sire or natural sire used on this operation been a success "NO!!". Have we made progress in the overall quality of the herd and feeder calfs "YES".






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Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:54 pm

Finally something I can relate to, and my favorite of all Doctors. The healing power of learning, creativity, and artistry is amazing medicine. It is much better for the soul than listening to incadescent chants of sire batteries the world over. Thanks Doc.


Bootheel, a zibber zabber zoos, as you can plainly see
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LCP



Posts : 70
Join date : 2012-04-16
Location : north central SD

PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:21 pm

Dr Seuss is a big proponent of line breeding for specific purposes judging from One Fish Two Fish Red Fish Blue Fish, which I have studied extensively in recent months. He recommends The Zans only for opening cans, the Gox only for boxing in yellow Gox box socks and the Mike only for pushing a bicycle built for three up tall hills. These have obviously been bred for very specific traits. I would imagine these are traits that would be difficult to measure as well. For now I'll just have to rely on the breeder's good word as to their performance and ability to pass on the given trait until the appropriate measurements can be obtained.

LCP, don't ask me why, go ask your mother
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MKeeney
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Posts : 4596
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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:44 am

PatB wrote:
Austin Risty wrote:
What traits are your cows missing?

I would not say they are missing as fine tweaking the future offspring. I am looking for more early growth with a 1200 to 1400lb mature weight for females.

What are hard to measure traits?

I would like to boost marbleing and the ability to flesh out when calf is weaned (fat cover) .


If they are hard to measure why select for them in a catalog?

I have 2 choices for genetics under my current management scheme AI or a home raised yearling sire. For biosecurity reasons no live outside animals are brought onto the farm. We have a short AI season then the home raised sire is turned out to breed the rest.

.

What is a little more accurate for EPD's? What are the EPD's of an animal that should work in your environment? The only two words in three paragraphs that made any logic was "rough guess"

Genomic testing will raise the accuracy of EPD's by 10 plus percent for low accuracy animals and give me basic carcass epd's along with docility. I have not identified the perfect range of epd's for my enviroment.

why are you Pat, and seemingly so many of us, having such a difficult time determining what kind of cow to breed? Are you saying "lack of accurate data"?
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Tom D
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Location : Michigan

PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:03 pm

PatB wrote:
Tom D wrote:
PatB wrote:
Why do we need computers on tractors and all the electronic sensors on equipment? Genomics is another tool to be used or mis-used at the hands of people who raise cattle if that is there wish.

Pat, how do you use the tools of A.I. , EPDs, and Genomic Testing to more profitably produce feeder cattle in Maine?

AI has allow this operations to use genetics that we never could afford in the walking form. The trucking cost alone would make buying a live bull prohitive before the price of the bull even at Keeney prices. The better genetics have improved wean weights and quality of the cattle for breeding stock and feeder calfs. The cost to feed a 1200 lb cow if she weans a 400 lb calf or a 550 lb calf in the herd is the same. Some buy new bulls or females to add desired traits to their herd I use AI to bring in new genetics/traits. EPD's are a way to sort thru potential AI sires and home raised herd sires. Genomics are a way to have a little more accurate epd's and get insights into hard to measure traits.

A rough guess there is approximately 40,000 to 50,000 cows,bulls and calfs sold in the state a year including dairyaccording to beef checkoff receipts. There is not a large market for beef seedstock or a ready source for it. AI is a affordable source of genetics. Genomics and EPD's are a way to sort the available genetics to find animals that should work under your management style.

Has every AI sire or natural sire used on this operation been a success "NO!!". Have we made progress in the overall quality of the herd and feeder calfs "YES".


So you want a herd of 1200 lb cows that wean 550 lb calves? How much do the mothers of your A.I. sires weigh? You have no idea, do you? Pat, in 5 years you're still going to be weaning 550 lb calves......................from 1600 lb cows. Did you ever wonder why your A.I. calves are bigger? (Besides the fact that they're Septembers instead of Novembers)

NO PAT, NO! DON'T SIT ON THAT!

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Grassfarmer



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Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:42 pm

Tom D wrote:

So you want a herd of 1200 lb cows that wean 550 lb calves? How much do the mothers of your A.I. sires weigh? You have no idea, do you? Pat, in 5 years you're still going to be weaning 550 lb calves......................from 1600 lb cows.

Isn't that the truth. Idea
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Genetic Evaluation....   Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:19 pm

a few in the registered industry are beginning to use more accurate terminology; genomic ready or not...

Who were the volume buyers; New players lance?

They once were called new breeders; such a disgrace to the word...
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