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df



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PostSubject: Expectations   Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:12 pm

Is the reason hybrids are a dissappointment is that they do not meet or exceed each individual's perception of what hybrids can accomplish? Do purebreds meet or exceed our expectations because we have been trained to believe the hybrid is superior to the purebred, when in fact, a superior purebred is better than an inferior hybrid?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: genotype evaluation   Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:40 pm

df wrote:
Is the reason hybrids are a dissappointment is that they do not meet or exceed each individual's perception of what hybrids can accomplish? Do purebreds meet or exceed our expectations because we have been trained to believe the hybrid is superior to the purebred, when in fact, a superior purebred is better than an inferior hybrid?
superior in what?
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df



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PostSubject: Re: genotype evaluation   Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:22 am

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
Is the reason hybrids are a dissappointment is that they do not meet or exceed each individual's perception of what hybrids can accomplish? Do purebreds meet or exceed our expectations because we have been trained to believe the hybrid is superior to the purebred, when in fact, a superior purebred is better than an inferior hybrid?
superior in what?

Typically in reproductive performance and to a lessor extent, weaning weight and milk production.
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PostSubject: Re: genotype evaluation   Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:27 am

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
Is the reason hybrids are a dissappointment is that they do not meet or exceed each individual's perception of what hybrids can accomplish? Do purebreds meet or exceed our expectations because we have been trained to believe the hybrid is superior to the purebred, when in fact, a superior purebred is better than an inferior hybrid?
superior in what?

Typically in reproductive performance and to a lessor extent, weaning weight and milk production.
would not the above in red be the wrong measure of a "superior" breeding animal? isn`t the number one measure of superiority of a breeding parent it`s ability to transmitt a genotype more consistently to the next generation?
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: genotype evaluation   Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:13 am



"would not the above in red be the wrong measure of a "superior" breeding animal? isn`t the number one measure of superiority of a breeding parent it`s ability to transmitt a genotype more consistently to the next generation?"

Isn't that what EPD's do? Isn't accuracy an indicator of consistency?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: genotype evaluation   Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:26 am

Keystone wrote:


"would not the above in red be the wrong measure of a "superior" breeding animal? isn`t the number one measure of superiority of a breeding parent it`s ability to transmitt a genotype more consistently to the next generation?"

Isn't that what EPD's do? Isn't accuracy an indicator of consistency?
NO Smile
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PostSubject: Re: genotype evaluation   Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:52 am

HELL NO! Laughing
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df



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PostSubject: Re: genotype evaluation   Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:40 am

Commercial cattlemen don't measure genotypes.
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PostSubject: Re: genotype evaluation   Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:20 am

df wrote:
Commercial cattlemen don't measure genotypes.
Do you think registered breeders measure genotypes Question
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PostSubject: Re: genotype evaluation   Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:27 am

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
Commercial cattlemen don't measure genotypes.
Do you think registered breeders measure genotypes Question

Shouldn't parentstock breeders?
Maybe instead of "measure" we should say that parentstock breeders should "evaluate" the genotypes? And by parentstock breeders I am referring to those that are creating the parentstock, not those that utilize parentstock for commercial crossing.
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: genotype evaluation   Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:39 pm

Dwight,

How do you propose we evaluate parent stock in a timely and cost effective manner? How do you decide if something is garbage or a treasure?
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PostSubject: Re: genotype evaluation   Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:45 pm

from Larry

Maybe instead of "measure" we should say that parentstock breeders should "evaluate" the genotypes? And by parentstock breeders I am referring to those that are creating the parentstock, not those that utilize parentstock for commercial crossing.


Thank you Dwight for helping to make what seems so complicated and difficult to understand - so simple.
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: genotype evaluation   Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:07 pm

Quote :
We have an extraordinary event coming up shortly on Dec 4th


I have to ask Larry, what makes it extraordinary?

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PostSubject: Re: genotype evaluation   Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:22 pm

Mark Day wrote:
Dwight,

How do you propose we evaluate parent stock in a timely and cost effective manner? How do you decide if something is garbage or a treasure?

Just a suggeastion, but one "acid test" can be this:
Brand every calf while still on the cow.
Is there anything there that embarrasses you?
Is there something that will be embarrassing for you to have your brand on for the whole world to see in the future?
If so, accelerate it into the food chain by bypassing the breeding pastures.
A brand will firm up one's commitment to breeding acceptable cattle and can be directly correlated to their integrity.

Breed for what you want and stick your brand on every calf.
Of course this will not work if someone is without conscious.
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PostSubject: Re: genotype evaluation   Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:07 pm

dwight@steadfastbeef.com wrote:
Mark Day wrote:
Dwight,

How do you propose we evaluate parent stock in a timely and cost effective manner? How do you decide if something is garbage or a treasure?

Just a suggeastion, but one "acid test" can be this:
Brand every calf while still on the cow.
Is there anything there that embarrasses you?
Is there something that will be embarrassing for you to have your brand on for the whole world to see in the future?
If so, accelerate it into the food chain by bypassing the breeding pastures.
A brand will firm up one's commitment to breeding acceptable cattle and can be directly correlated to their integrity.

Breed for what you want and stick your brand on every calf.
Of course this will not work if someone is without conscious.
Dwight,
you really haven`t inbred much, have you? Do you think the whole world is a proper and capable judge of a breeding animal? I don`t...
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PostSubject: Re: genotype evaluation   Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:19 pm

Mark Day wrote:
Dwight,

How do you propose we evaluate parent stock in a timely and cost effective manner? How do you decide if something is garbage or a treasure?

Mike,
What is your answer to this?
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: genotype evaluation   Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:35 pm

Dwight,

Like Mike said, can we judge the contents of the book by the cover? What if someone does not like that type of book cover? Some of these Shoshone type bulls look like the complete wrong kind at times don't they?
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PostSubject: Re: genotype evaluation   Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:40 pm

Mark Day wrote:
Dwight,

Like Mike said, can we judge the contents of the book by the cover? What if someone does not like that type of book cover? Some of these Shoshone type bulls look like the complete wrong kind at times don't they?

But if that calf with the unnappreciated book cover sires desirable calves he starts to look pretty good then, doesn't he?

What keeps you from looking at it like a crap shoot, Mark?
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: genotype evaluation   Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:55 pm

Quote :
But if that calf with the unnappreciated book cover sires desirable calves he starts to look pretty good then, doesn't he

No disagreement with that at all but had better always have a calf crop around for proof? What about all the females?
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PostSubject: Re: genotype evaluation   Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:56 pm

dwight@steadfastbeef.com wrote:
Mark Day wrote:
Dwight,

Like Mike said, can we judge the contents of the book by the cover? What if someone does not like that type of book cover? Some of these Shoshone type bulls look like the complete wrong kind at times don't they?

But if that calf with the unnappreciated book cover sires desirable calves he starts to look pretty good then, doesn't he?

but since you or the whole world never liked him, he never got used to have any progeny to make him look better, did he?
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PostSubject: Re: genotype evaluation   Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:09 pm

MKeeney wrote:
dwight@steadfastbeef.com wrote:
Mark Day wrote:
Dwight,

Like Mike said, can we judge the contents of the book by the cover? What if someone does not like that type of book cover? Some of these Shoshone type bulls look like the complete wrong kind at times don't they?

But if that calf with the unnappreciated book cover sires desirable calves he starts to look pretty good then, doesn't he?

but since you or the whole world never liked him, he never got used to have any progeny to make him look better, did he?

Call me an idiot, but my lifetime is too short to take that many chances.

Maybe I am too much of a coward to use a bull I can't stand looking at, but I wasn't afraid to share one of my "filters." Perhaps I should keep my other filters to myself.
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: genotype evaluation   Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:20 pm

Keep them coming Dwight. Our problem is we don't have enough farms and enough cattle to try some of those animals to build up our confidence that it might be alright thing to do or hide our stupidity. Why do you think I traveled to Nancy yesterday to get 2 bulls but I have to admit I likely have 4 at home more attractive than the one I paid for but I doubt they are nearly as good.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: genotype evaluation   Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:23 pm

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
Commercial cattlemen don't measure genotypes.
Do you think registered breeders measure genotypes Question

Purebred breeders largely record observations such as weaning weight and the resulting genetic evaluations are largely the result of additive genes. Certainly higher accuracy bulls have had a fair comparison of their breeding value.

I seriously doubt there is much hybrid vigor in crossing lines within a breed and certainly not as much as crossing breeds of cattle.
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Double B

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PostSubject: Re: genotype evaluation   Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:51 pm

Mark how much better do you feel Mikes bull is than your bulls and why?
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PostSubject: Re: genotype evaluation   Mon Nov 15, 2010 6:57 pm

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
Commercial cattlemen don't measure genotypes.
Do you think registered breeders measure genotypes Question

Purebred breeders largely record observations such as weaning weight and the resulting genetic evaluations are largely the result of additive genes. Certainly higher accuracy bulls have had a fair comparison of their breeding value.

I seriously doubt there is much hybrid vigor in crossing lines within a breed and certainly not as much as crossing breeds of cattle.

so measuring phenotype gives us the genotype? how would you account for a 25% IBC in a so called "GENETIC EVALUATION" using phenotype? if there`s no hybrid vigor in outcrossing within a breed, why don`t more REGISTERED breeders linebreed instead of constantly searching for outcrosses? what is a breed Dennis? no need for them anymore? put them all back together, and the next step is to re-select new breeds? define hybrid vigor?
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