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PostSubject: Re: NBCEC website    Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:08 pm

So Pat all of this DNA rtesting is near and dear to you. So maybe you can enlinghten me............ study
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EddieM



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Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: NBCEC website    Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:29 pm

Quote :
The potential is there but may not be realized in the angus breed due to the AAA's current policy on genomic raw data. It is hard to conduct meaningful research (big picture) if one does not have large pieces of the puzzle to be assembled and looked at.

Pat, no bad thoughts intended. I cannot see the benefit of this testing if all it tells me is parentage. I can look in my little calving record book or on the registration papers and there is my info. And I sure do not claim to understand the big picture of anything. But give me a faint ray of light and let me know why this stuff is so important to you, in non-genomic terms, and how you have a greater vision of where AAA ought to be than they do. Are they backwards, lazy or evil? What would this collected raw data and complete puzzle do for me as a too-well-unknown Angus owner? Who does it benefit? Who gets the gravy and who gets the meat? Thanks.

Eddie, in the vicinity of puzzled on a cloudy day
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PatB



Posts : 455
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Age : 53
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PostSubject: Re: NBCEC website    Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:38 pm

EddieM wrote:
Quote :
The potential is there but may not be realized in the angus breed due to the AAA's current policy on genomic raw data. It is hard to conduct meaningful research (big picture) if one does not have large pieces of the puzzle to be assembled and looked at.

Pat, no bad thoughts intended. I cannot see the benefit of this testing if all it tells me is parentage. I can look in my little calving record book or on the registration papers and there is my info. And I sure do not claim to understand the big picture of anything. But give me a faint ray of light and let me know why this stuff is so important to you, in non-genomic terms, and how you have a greater vision of where AAA ought to be than they do. Are they backwards, lazy or evil? What would this collected raw data and complete puzzle do for me as a too-well-unknown Angus owner? Who does it benefit? Who gets the gravy and who gets the meat? Thanks.

Eddie, in the vicinity of puzzled on a cloudy day

Eddie

Genomics holds the promise of being able to identify animals genetic merit and the ability to reduce the risk of unexpected results when breeding cattle IE large birth weights unacceptable mature size or many other hard to measure traits. The commercial producer would benefit from being able to buy animals/bulls that meet their needs and goals with higher rates of success.

My vision of AAA genotype database and genomic testing fails to take in the real world of licensing and restrictions placed on current genotype research databases as has been brought to my attention today.

I liken the current world of genomics to the computer world of the late seventies and eighties. There is alot of potential but time, money and research is needed to get to where we are today with the computer. I bought a PC in 1988 for big money as it was better than using a type writer for clerical task and it has been replaced with PC's that due more and cost less. The same logic can be applied to mobile phones as they inprove with time and offer more features but users benefit differently depending on what features they need and use the same applies to genomics.



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PostSubject: Re: NBCEC website    Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:28 pm

Thanks for the enlightenment pat. Now help me with the puzzle. Computer's are man made and cattle are living beings. i have a difficult time tiring to grasp the releationship that can be made between the two. Genes can and do have the ability to adapt to the environment. What LL has done is a astute understanding of the genes is his small pool from years of observation and strict self disipline in his choices. And i have difficulty understanding how a Assocition can even come close to the disipline level required to be honest with one's self let alone a entire pack of greedy indivuals seeking the next greatest payday..... I see DNA testing as the quest for the next great wonderbull. If there are 150 known defects what value would be placed on the one with the fewest, since not a one would be free of all 150. The mathmatics to figure EPD"S are approx 4.5million equations. And to add more complication to the whole mess is like adding another layer of government to the taxpayer. The only response is WHY?
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larkota



Posts : 371
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Age : 57
Location : Kimball South Dakota

PostSubject: Re: NBCEC website    Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:59 pm

PatB wrote:


Genomics holds the promise of being able to identify animals genetic merit and the ability to reduce the risk of unexpected results when breeding cattle IE large birth weights unacceptable mature size or many other hard to measure traits. The commercial producer would benefit from being able to buy animals/bulls that meet their needs and goals with higher rates of success.

My vision of AAA genotype database and genomic testing fails to take in the real world of licensing and restrictions placed on current genotype research databases as has been brought to my attention today.

I liken the current world of genomics to the computer world of the late seventies and eighties. There is alot of potential but time, money and research is needed to get to where we are today with the computer. I bought a PC in 1988 for big money as it was better than using a type writer for clerical task and it has been replaced with PC's that due more and cost less. The same logic can be applied to mobile phones as they inprove with time and offer more features but users benefit differently depending on what features they need and use the same applies to genomics.


what if I dont want all the features of the modern cell phone?
I dont need the camera
I dont need GPS
I dont text
I dont need a calculator
I dont need to be connected to the WWW
all this I have to pay more not to have

all I want is a dam phone. more is not always better, just more complicated.

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Grassfarmer



Posts : 850
Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: NBCEC website    Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:21 am

PatB wrote:

Genomics holds the promise of being able to identify animals genetic merit and the ability to reduce the risk of unexpected results when breeding cattle IE large birth weights unacceptable mature size or many other hard to measure traits.

Are large birth weights and unacceptable mature size hard to measure traits? How many of these problems are caused by breeders misuse of previous "advancements" eg EPDs? What makes you think breeders would make any better use of genomic tests if they were widely available and proven accurate? Isn't it just opening another chapter of marketing BS? - seeking an enhanced monetary value for the bull that scores best in the test, seeking enhanced monetary value for a bull that's been "tested for all known defects"?

My experience with Igenity tests was underwhelming to say the least. I only needed to prove parentage to register some ET calves - basically checking to see they weren't sired by a different herd bull. Took them three tests to confirm them all - on the first test they told me most could not only not be sired by the bull I used - they couldn't be out of the cow I sent them the hair sample off (and took the embryos out of). Complete nonsense. They look like just another parasitic element to me.
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PatB



Posts : 455
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 53
Location : Turner, Maine

PostSubject: Re: NBCEC website    Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:39 am

larkota wrote:
PatB wrote:


Genomics holds the promise of being able to identify animals genetic merit and the ability to reduce the risk of unexpected results when breeding cattle IE large birth weights unacceptable mature size or many other hard to measure traits. The commercial producer would benefit from being able to buy animals/bulls that meet their needs and goals with higher rates of success.

My vision of AAA genotype database and genomic testing fails to take in the real world of licensing and restrictions placed on current genotype research databases as has been brought to my attention today.

I liken the current world of genomics to the computer world of the late seventies and eighties. There is alot of potential but time, money and research is needed to get to where we are today with the computer. I bought a PC in 1988 for big money as it was better than using a type writer for clerical task and it has been replaced with PC's that due more and cost less. The same logic can be applied to mobile phones as they inprove with time and offer more features but users benefit differently depending on what features they need and use the same applies to genomics.


what if I dont want all the features of the modern cell phone?
I dont need the camera
I dont need GPS
I dont text
I dont need a calculator
I dont need to be connected to the WWW
all this I have to pay more not to have

all I want is a dam phone. more is not always better, just more complicated.


The cell phone plan we have allows you to add on different features for diferent cell phones on the plan. The wife has a android with all the bells and whistles and unlimited texting, www and GPS and uses them all. I have the basic phone with more features then I need at this time. We all have different wants and needs in are approach to breeding cattle.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: NBCEC website    Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:55 am

wants but not needs...
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larkota



Posts : 371
Join date : 2010-09-23
Age : 57
Location : Kimball South Dakota

PostSubject: Re: NBCEC website    Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:11 am

rather I need it, want it, or dont want it, it is going to cost us all more.
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MKeeney
Admin


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PostSubject: Re: NBCEC website    Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:28 pm

Pat, will there be breeds or just the one super breed in the new dna selection paradigm?
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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: NBCEC website    Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:23 pm

PatB wrote:


Genomics holds the promise of being able to identify animals genetic merit and the ability to reduce the risk of unexpected results when breeding cattle IE large birth weights unacceptable mature size or many other hard to measure traits.



Bred in genetic continuity is a proven strategy for producing expected results. The genomic crystal ball will not create genetic order or prepotency out of outcross genetic chaos.

Dylan
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PostSubject: Re: NBCEC website    Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:21 pm

Dylan Biggs wrote:
PatB wrote:


Genomics holds the promise of being able to identify animals genetic merit and the ability to reduce the risk of unexpected results when breeding cattle IE large birth weights unacceptable mature size or many other hard to measure traits.



Bred in genetic continuity is a proven strategy for producing expected results. The genomic crystal ball will not create genetic order or prepotency out of outcross genetic chaos.

Dylan


Why sure it will, on average, some of the time, with no reference EVER, to the bell curve, and all without care or causation of it.
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