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 what true line means to you?

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larkota



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Join date : 2010-09-23
Age : 57
Location : Kimball South Dakota

PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:12 pm

Tom Lasater said breeding cattle is a relatively simple endeavor, the difficulty is in keeping it simple.

The single point I am trying to make is that it is absolutely imperative that we SIMPLIFY THIS BEEF BUSINESS, if not for others, at least for ourselves.

this is 1 line that stood out for me. many don't believe me but I am running cattle more like deer....no help...dont know if that makes me or the cattle simple??
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:50 pm

larkota wrote:
Tom Lasater said breeding cattle is a relatively simple endeavor, the difficulty is in keeping it simple.

The single point I am trying to make is that it is absolutely imperative that we SIMPLIFY THIS BEEF BUSINESS, if not for others, at least for ourselves.

this is 1 line that stood out for me. many don't believe me but I am running cattle more like deer....no help...dont know if that makes me or the cattle simple??

...."For those who understand, no explanation is needed, for those who do not understand, no explanation is possible"
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:13 pm


many don't believe me but I am running cattle more like deer....no help...dont know if that makes me or the cattle simple??[/quote]

but what if the cattle start tasting like deer? Smile
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:14 pm

Larry Leonhardt wrote:
Imitating Gavin's method of communication with monthly "Pinebank Newsletters", this is my quarterly Sept/Dect 2012 philosophical "TruLine Newsletter".

The weather during this fall harvest has been nearly ideal with a record breaking sugarbeet crop producing 12,247 net pounds of extractable sugar per acre with high purity and low SLM (sugar lost to molasses from impurities)....that 6.12 TPA of pure sugar is attributed to pure reliable seed, free extra sunshine, reliable Shoshone River water, reduction of expensive nitrates and at our least expenditure of labor. I thought this news would be of extreme interest to the many sugarbeet growers here on KC.....urging them to consider changing the "t" to an "f" and applying these beeT production factors to sweeten their beeF production Smile

When Larkota originated this topic asking what TruLine means to each of us, I am very pleased with the responses yet I remain concerned when noticing a few misguided perceptions.....also I am apprehensive about us getting ahead of ourselves.....so be cautious and don't forget to buckle your safety belts while going down this road less traveled. Lest we forget, Brian requoted the basic objective:

True-Line.....Development of parent stock that can REGULARLY produce beef animals which at the lowest possible cost and expenditure of labor give the highest possible and longest lasting net returns. Not just for ourselves, but moreso for the commercial producers.

I had to smile when Larkota wrote that he thinks about this when he goes out in the morning, when stuck in a tractor, looking at his cattle and when he goes to bed at night......I have too for over 30 years but like Kent, it's not my first priority in life, it's only after the other thing Wink I think about. We can create all kinds of crazy artificial monetary values in this business but we can't create cattle, all we can do is change them.

Surely this basic philosophical objective has always been an underlying ambition in beef production, yet the traditional methodology of chasing more from more seems to remain contrary towards that objective. The only proof needed is to look back at the overall results of that methodology to where we are today. So what TruLine means to me is that it offers an optional alternative.....envisioning more reliable and efficient idealistic beef production systems based on establishing genetic truths to the best of our ability....one step at a time. Easier said than done.

A "genetic truth" is a term used by professional breeders when a character or trait is "fixed" (homozygous) and will be transmitted to the next generation with certainty..... whether it remains predominant or not is dependant on the next parent....so the first and most difficult step in this tedious time consuming process is to determine what characters you want to establish or stabilize in a functional type.

The problem is natural law does not permit 100% homozygosity for all its' necessary reasons, and nearly all qualitative characters are also quantitative with interacting relationships...... referred to as genetic trade-offs. So how do we deal with these obstacles, what are our limitations? I've presumed the genetic constitution must have its own built-in regulators and mutations which increase or decrease the gene frequencies of whatever in its survival of the fittest system. So, in order to make sense out of what I've observed, I've made alot of presumptions over many agonizing years based on those observations without any actual proof......it has been a game of truth and consequences. Sorry DF, no scientific proof....the only proof I have from whatever I've done is whatever now stands before my eyes while trying to better understand natural law and its counteracting limitations.

One of my favorite quotes is...."For those who understand, no explanation is needed, for those who do not understand, no explanation is possible." It is only after we have a greater understanding of natural law can we ever create truer monetary values to our works.

.I suppose Pat B might not agree with me but over time I came to believe what we may often label as detrimental genes, that they are as essential in the natural evolutionary process as those we may label as beneficial genes....self-regulated by the dominant and recessive nature of things....either expressed or latent....turning them on and off....and wherein too many beneficial genes can become detrimental for our purpose. Since we can never rid ourselves of either, we're back to our same ole endpoint learning how to manage them for our economic benefit from an infinite number of possibilities.. For me, utilizing the numerous single trait measures and heritability estimates available have become virtually useless. I haven't been able to change one part of an animal without affecting something else either positively or negatively.....I haven't seen much neutrality.

So stuck in this seemingly helpless situation, what I finally concluded that is absolutely the most important, is that we bog ourselves down with so many unecessary complicated and costly details in an industry so full of competitive cynicism and egocentrics, it is easy to understand how the industry is what it is....and that rather than moving closer to the objective reiterrated by Brian above, we keep getting further away....and the faster we go the behinder we get.

For me, it is paramount to simplify and reverse the ever growing complexities being created in beef production, period. Tom Lasater said breeding cattle is a relatively simple endeavor, the difficulty is in keeping it simple. I meant every word I said on the inside back cover of my 1983 TruLine booklet and it took me some time, but I finally rid myself of the useless parasitic elements in this business....tuning out all the incessant competitive nit-picking and bickering. However, my interests are re-ignited when issues arise relating to closer breeding, especially from those who have had so little experience with the subject. MK recently wrote:

.....talk is certainly both cheap and rewarding ...close breeding evidently is neither or it would be practiced rather than praised more often....

In our human society it is common to condemn someone focusing more on whatever it is that we don't do well rather than getting praise for whatever it is that we do well ....and so it is with our cattle. I will not be dragged back down into that snakepit or tangled web of deceit and frivolity trying to compete with traditional methodology and promotion....I am my only competition. Whatever we do will always be praised by some, criticized by others. While I enjoy MK's natural role of being the independent free leader of the fact finding truth squad exposing the fallacies of traditional promotions reveling the bull....or revealing the naked truth of maternal values..... that is not my role.



My role here is more or less educational by sharing my experiences without "STRETCHING THE TRUTH". Exaggerated claims are common In the traditional competitive marketplace....the AI stud business is often criticized by disappointed users who had high expectations In a defensive mode, one of their primary leaders once said the AI studs have the right bulls, we just don't use them properly. Perhaps the AI studs should breed their own bulls to gain a better perspective. And perhaps we also don't use close breeding properly either.

It is easy to understand that to prosper in their marketing business, the AI studs must promote and .offer what the marketplace demands and that greater demand is from people wanting more than they have. To fulfill those wants, the studs simply react by offering semen from individual bulls that are promoted to do more things "better". The reality is that there is very little demand for close breeding unless it exhibits traditional superiority....... in fact we know closer breeding is generally and deliberately avoided.

And it's also easy to understand the difficulty in trying to increase the demand for closer breeding after seeing the results of chasing higher and higher IBC's..... wherein those IBC outliers confuse Dylan who is trying to understand how good is bad and bad is good . I've utilized intensive inbreeding as a tool to save time in the initial identification process of selection....and of course we're all accustomed to selecting outliers TO SAVE TIME in whatever direction we're going....so it would be our natural habit to also chase the highest IBC's. I certainly didn't utilize intensive closer breeding to enhance my monetary values in a marketplace that shuns those procedures.

So when MK posted his seven questions relative to increasing the demand or values for closer breeding, he ended it with - "Dylan, in the lesson for Jan 22 below, Inbreeding and neutral evolution, http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucbhdjm/courses/b242/InbrDrift/InbrDriftPP.pdf , is what I was trying to teach Larry Wink in the car this summer on the way to Jack`s...to no avail Evil or Very Mad "..... Mike knows I can't get pdf on my computer and we debate so many things, that I can't even remember what he was talking about here. So I'm only going to respond to his last question:
7. So we need to promote closer breeding in order to sell it competitively? What is the factual proof you will offer to confirm the benefit?

Thanks a million Hilly for helping out with such a perfect response .... "like The Little Red Hen". .....no better explanation is possible. So Mike,the factual proof of any benefit is in your own herd and what happens there is what will happen in your customers herd. I appreciate your recent thought provoking post showing us what will happen someday.....also just wondering if someday you will change the name of your operation to Keeney Cattle LLC ? Wink

all the Keeney Angus , believed to be "pure" Charolais bulls will look like this someday...




I also wondered if anyone noticed the absence of the word "angus" from my "Shoshone X Strain", and Mike, this may sound smug but I wouldn't dare predict that "all Keeney Angus" will eventually look like this. Most commercial producers breed their own cattle and are solely responsible for the product they produce....Eddie M's might even look like Beefalo. Wink And like most of us, commercial producers must experience the pitfalls before they are finally recognized by them from the choices they made.

With Hilly being a commercial producer, when Mike & I first met him and as he explained his objectives, it quickly became very clear that he recognized the pitfalls of the traditional selection habits much quicker than most of us do.....and wow, what a surprise it was to hear he was looking for "closer bred" cattle to fulfill his objectives. And believe it or not, there is a growing number of commercial breeders out there that are looking for more reliable consistency in the cattle they buy.

Hilly's story as told to us was that his neighbors were going broke raising bigger and bigger cattle, his difficulty was in trying to replace his aging cow herd with the "traditionally best" Angus bulls available. His search for his preferred maternal values eventually landed this Canadian on the doorstep at Red Lodge. I couldn't imagine that there could be such a shortage of "good" maternal bulls, that they would need to be imported. Part of the advantage Hilly has is that he is only concerned about breeding cattle for himself....without the burden of worrying about how to promote and market seedstock to others.

It may be a long ways off Mike, but some day the commercial producers will be programmed to be just like Hilly and your protective services to prevent people from being duped by marketeers will no longer be needed......the early bird will get the worm......so don't worry about the monetary values of your cattle today Mike, they'll be worth much more after we're long gone......mine already seem to be worth more money AFTER they leave my place even though I'm still here. cheers So now all we need to worry about is how to prevent being duped by ourselves, sucked back into those old traditional marketing habits. Wink

MK also posted that research supports the notion that there is little significant difference between today's purebreds and crossbreds. Why would there be if they're all selecting for all the same things. While the factual proof of the differenes between close breeding reducing variation vs. expanded variation can be measured in the distributions of the isolated populations, we must acknowledge that beyond a few individuals, there aren't enough "closer bred" populations available to make many valid comparison. The truth is that today it is a mixed bag of tricks .between registered straightbreds and crossbreds and any benefits between "purebreds" and crossbreds are in how we use them.

It is a factual reality that by expanding and promoting variation from the myriad of possibilities, the benefits from the diversity of the Angus breed has allowed it to become the predominant breed in America. Is it purebred progress when any Angus bull's shortcomings are discovered, there is another Angus waiting in the wings to fulfill those shortcomings while continually adding other "holes"? These pursuits have been described here on KC as filling the holes of one sheet of paper with another, a temporary complimentary process often referred to as the benefits of heterosis or hybrid vigor. We tend to ignor the fact that without stability in the parent population, these short term benefits of heterosis can be an expensive haphazard culling approach.... overwhelmed by the mongrelized "holes" in the distributions over the long term...wherein heterosis must be sustained to avoid regression....all of which has very little to do with improving NET returns.

It is our SELECTION within any population that ultimately determines the amount of variation we get, not whether they are closebred pedigree wise, straightbred or crossbred.

So, if a functional purebred's role is to provide stabilization in order to enjoy longer lasting net returns whether it be via harnessed hybridization or not, the factual genetic reality is that reliable sustainability requires improved prepotency in the parent stock... like it or not. Webster defines prepotency as the unusual ability of an individual or strain to transmit its functional characteristics to offspring because of homozygosity for numerous dominant genes. This predominance surely occurs over time in isolated populations simply from the SELECTION reducing any other disruptive genes. Common sense knows we can't get milk out of a dry cow. I know from experience that chasing and combing individual outliers who may be prepotent in many different characters leads to an economic exercise in futility.

What are my motives for reitterating all of the above about things most of us ALREADY KNOW. We hear and listen but we don't do anything about it. The single point I am trying to make is that it is absolutely imperative that we SIMPLIFY THIS BEEF BUSINESS, if not for others, at least for ourselves. It is little wonder that someone reported that the average span of a registered breeder is seven years, just time enough for the con artistry from within to scavenge the ignorant from their wealth and impossible dreams.

For those so dedicated to improve the efficiences of their own cattle, WE MUST START RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW! Terms like linebreeding, outcrossing, crossbreeding, straightbreeding, references to breeds, IBC's, EPD's, pedigrees, etc. all need to be abandoned and replaced with but one word.....PREPOTENCY. Pedigreed IBC's many be an indicator of prepotency but they are a damn poor indicator of merit.....selection, not perfection determines merit. When I said I have apprehensions about getting ahead of ourseleves, it's a reminder that we can't expect to start at the top and work down, we must start at the bottom and work up....that bottom is the commercial beef market.

Certainly the costs to improve prepotency cannot exceed the potential benefits and few of us can be expected to sacrifice our own livelihood for the benefit of others. Mike and I have had long discussions about the costs of reaching differing degrees of prepotency. How do we improve the prepotency at the lowest possible cost and expenditure of labor? What are the limiting factors? How much monetary value do we place on the time required to improve prepotency? Apparently time is very valuable in the traditional cattle breeding business since the outliers of any preferred selection direction bring the highest dollars in the marketplace....ALL with expectations to get somewhere quicker. Can we afford it? The facts are that anyone in the beef business for the long term cannot afford to ignor improving the beneficial prepotency of their cattle.

Those questions and many more are all ONLY resolved when we consider ourselves as commercial beef producers breeding our own cattle.During my lifetime, IMO the leading edges of the Angus breed were likely the most prepotent for their characteristics during the 50's and ending at its peak during the late 60's The elite breeders of that time were able to perpetuate a common type by crossing the champions from the families of Bardoliers, Bandoliers, Eileenmeres etc. The reigns of many other subsequent popular types also ended as they became more prepotent. Even though these "corrective types" had the ability to transmit their characteristics to offspring more often after 3 or 4 generations....which included ALL their "holes in their sheets of paper", they failed simply because they weren't developed and utilized PROPERLY.

When will we ever learn, remembering when Tom Burke called these interruptions in a direction CROSSroads Wink

I should mention that during my initial stages of the development of a more prepotent FUNCTIONAL strain, at one point in time I had considered pricing my surplus non-parent breeding stock in accordance with their IBC's. That could have had disastrous consequences since I was not far enough along to know whether that improved prepotency within the population was beneficial or detrimental. I have learned that as the outliers of any direction become more prepotent, they are the forerunners revealing indications of what will come, both the good and the bad. The choice then is whether we will utilize prepotency wisely or not..

So here we are back to where we started a couple hundred of years ago.....establishing an ideal.....but we're not starting over since we have those 200 years of experience under our belts. We know the principles of a successful breeder are exceedingly simple, that the difficulty is in the application..... because of greed , lack of perserverance, and the time required in the application

LL in the vicinity of patiently improving the functional prepotency of my cattle at the lowest cost and expenditure of labor to give me the highest POSSIBLE and LONGEST LASTING genuine net returns. cheers


LL is often critisized for not being brief enough about cattle breeding; which yes, is a relatively simple endeavor, but the why`s of human nature going their diverse ways, which always prevail over science and reason, is quite complex...so we had for us, a brief discussion today, expanding on all the above...yes, some messages only take a few words, as in" I am my only competition"

and the whole damn marketing business summed up right here..so don't worry about the monetary values of your cattle today Mike, they'll be worth much more after we're long gone......mine already seem to be worth more money AFTER they leave my place even though I'm still here. So now all we need to worry about is how to prevent being duped by ourselves, sucked back into those old traditional marketing habits...

and alas, I`ve determined I have close bred one of the 995 "lines" that will fail of the every 1000; 997 of them not yet attempted ; for it seems I have made homozygous and prepotent something bad...not lethal Pat, bad...you know, the bad that makes a commercial economic difference; not material for breed "cleansing"; which would be even more futile than the current hysteria...

but with a new perspective I haven`t failed ; for I have expoused atruth...and just writing off the cuff, this might be a case where one actually might back up 2,3,4 generations to an ancestor and go a different route...or if one flushed and had extra coin{gene} flip numbers of sibs so SELECTION could be practiced, a different result could be achived...with exactly the same pedigree...now imagine that, all you "pure pedigree" BS`ers Smile

so getting a little long winded myself, suffice to say,
Larry, I didn`t hang up on you; my phone battery went dead... Very Happy Linda pretends so puzzled how we can spend a half day on the phone; but she`s alright with it if we talk half a day on the porch at Red Lodge...after all these years studying human nature, she thinks I can`t see through her vested interest in that ? Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes but Good gracious, I`m afraid after hanging out with Brian, she might start thinking LL or I should shop with her... Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:28 am

An arresting thought is that Hilly, just Wink a commercial breeder, could better breed the maternal bulls he needs than the registered industry can...even with their 20 million records and 17 million pedigrees...so the priority for me becomes raise them cheap enough, and predictable enough, that commercial breeders choose to avoid the aggravation of young bulls being around challenging each other to duels...
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:28 am

MKeeney wrote:

many don't believe me but I am running cattle more like deer....no help...dont know if that makes me or the cattle simple??

but what if the cattle start tasting like deer? Smile [/quote]

is that how they came up with turkey bacon??

the talk all around me how many dead deer they are finding... yet have seen 20 plus deer eating here on the wrong side of my feedbunk.

Larkota rounding up deer and breeding cattle in the wild.

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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:14 am

Quote :
Most commercial producers breed their own cattle and are solely responsible for the product they produce....Eddie M's might even look like Beefalo.

Larry, I'll try to find you a Beefalo picture that will surely get Mike into the mood of crossed species production for the Keeney 2013 Fall Sale. This beast was wandering around on the fam in LA after a hurricane a few years ago. Let the waiting begin for this glamour shot if I can find it. But I was hoping that you would tell us a bit about your socks. clown
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:17 pm

As Larry alluded to, I think history provides proof that these prepotent bulls will become overvalued at some point to the dismay/delight of some.

And with the rate of technology coupled with human tendency’s none of this will matter much outside of the impact it has on us and our varying circles of influence today.

The little red hen didn’t have to worry about how much to sell the bread for as it had intrinsic value to her and her family not only in sustenance but in basic mental and physical activity needed to live a healthier and more contributing existence.

The hen’s example had a direct influence on the perspective her chicks had on a kernel of wheat, as they were dependent on her and were more of less a captive audience(TomD less so)...

The pig, duck, mouse and cat seemed to be getting along fine with or without the hen. An apparent abundance and subsequent complacency had formed their present normal, for better or for worst, a comfortable existence... although judging from the amount of physical and mental labour they are contributing, appear dependent on someone/thing, they just have no current need to care.

Only after the hen had finished the bread did she expanded her influence over the bystanders and more than likely could have sold the loaf to the now eager audience but at what cost???? Could it be the answer to that question is of less importance then the intent of example, a progression toward independents to enable more productive and fulfilling lives.

The road each of us travels is certainly not the only road so I see little use in stopping to build a gate with terms and conditions posted to gain entrance as it may be that I will find myself coming back through the same gate having to remove all signage and replace with a simple “Dead End”.

On the subject of independence I recently downloaded the book “John Adams” written by David McCullough and narrated by Edward Herrmann, I’m sure someone could find some factual flaws in it but I found it very worthwhile.

You can get it at iTunes like I did or here is the Audible link, if interested...

http://www.audible.com/pd/ref=sr_1_2?asin=B002V5H8ZC&qid=1351526262&sr=1-2
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:11 am

a long overdue award for Hilly...more prestigious than an Oscar...



I suspect a source of satisfaction, or at least a pressure relieving one, was the fact that the little red hen found her seed, instead of buying them over-priced...I laughed at my uncle yesterday complaining about old time "pie-pumkin "seed costing $4/6 seed...
I know we have a regular reader in New Jersey; certainly hope you didn`t get mesmerized in KC and fail to evacuate Exclamation
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:24 am

MKeeney wrote:
a long overdue award for Hilly...more prestigious than an Oscar...





At least he won something this week.
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:51 am

Mike,
I’m not sure an award is warranted, unless there is one for the most consecutive nights with 2-3 hours of sleep, not due to work... I’m starting to worry it is my new normal.

With no way to shut my mind off, I start rambling on about chickens and mice with no two consecutive coherent thoughts, meanwhile missing important and costly meetings and simple management tasks that would be grounds for firing in most situations.

Hilly... Trying to remember to put my unadorned socks on and take my phone with me before I head out for the day in an effort to save diesel.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:24 am

Hilly wrote:
Mike,
I’m not sure an award is warranted, unless there is one for the most consecutive nights with 2-3 hours of sleep, not due to work... I’m starting to worry it is my new normal.

With no way to shut my mind off, I start rambling on about chickens and mice with no two consecutive coherent thoughts, meanwhile missing important and costly meetings and simple management tasks that would be grounds for firing in most situations.

Hilly... Trying to remember to put my unadorned socks on and take my phone with me before I head out for the day in an effort to save diesel.

I`m going to the movies soon after Nov 16...it has been years...

http://www.imdb.com/video/imdb/vi1557767193/

how has this anything to do with tru-line ? Smile

"The central premise of that book is terribly important in the clue that it gives you to the temperament of that man, who could set aside what for all of us might be a sense of wounded pride or a sense of dignity that's been bruised in some way," Day-Lewis said. "He knew that he was regarded with almost complete contempt by most of those people that he appointed, and yet he could see beyond that, and it wasn't with the rather petty-minded platitude of 'keep your enemies close.'

"It was more to do with a generous understanding of what the value of those individuals was at a vital time."

mk says "we are in a vital time only because it is our only time"

Read more here: http://www.kentucky.com/2012/10/30/2389807/spielberg-day-lewis-unite-for.html#storylink=misearch#storylink=cpy



http://www.kentucky.com/2012/10/30/2389807/spielberg-day-lewis-unite-for.html#storylink=misearch
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:15 pm

Hilly wrote:
Mike,
I’m not sure an award is warranted, unless there is one for the most consecutive nights with 2-3 hours of sleep, not due to work... I’m starting to worry it is my new normal.

With no way to shut my mind off, I start rambling on about chickens and mice with no two consecutive coherent thoughts, meanwhile missing important and costly meetings and simple management tasks that would be grounds for firing in most situations.

Hilly... Trying to remember to put my unadorned socks on and take my phone with me before I head out for the day in an effort to save diesel.


I think not sleeping is a sign of genius. It is also the trait of Generals. I sleep more than I should but tend to do it in spurts, with the trouble of turning the mind off. After laying in bed for two hours last night, and not solving anything of importance I started counting sheep. Somewhere around 250 my eyes started hurting from trying to distinguish the individuals from the population of imaginary sheep. So, I sold that pen of sheep and bought a herd of linebreds thinking that would solve the problem of individuality, but led instead to sorting by age, sex, and ability to to jump a rail fence. By 550 the sheep counting had proceeded to result in boredom and the ways of the world crept away from my nightvisions and I drifted into slumber with the Sandman. Five hours seems to be about normal for me until I crash and either take a nap or sleep in. Going to bed early is not an option.


Tonight my thoughts will be haunted by Mike's desire to pay homeage to the ever encroaching Federal power. Counting dead bodies piling up does not seem to be as relaxing as counting inbred sheep.



Bootheel, too much sleep for a General, too little for a Private.....stuck in the Middle.
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Larry Leonhardt



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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:40 pm

Hilly wrote:
Mike,
I’m not sure an award is warranted, unless there is one for the most consecutive nights with 2-3 hours of sleep, not due to work... I’m starting to worry it is my new normal.

With no way to shut my mind off, I start rambling on about chickens and mice with no two consecutive coherent thoughts, meanwhile missing important and costly meetings and simple management tasks that would be grounds for firing in most situations.

Hilly... Trying to remember to put my unadorned socks on and take my phone with me before I head out for the day in an effort to save diesel.

Hilly, the cure for insomnia comes when we stop trying to make sense out of nonsense Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:44 pm

It ought not to be, that because we cannot do everything, that we ought not to do what we can.

Thomas Paine
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JSelte



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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:57 pm

This is the view from the unexperienced tru-line outsider, who has been watching for a while and not quite sure where to start.
Tru-line to me is exactly what LL states: the ability to consistently breed animals that will return you the highest net return over their life for the lowest cost.

What I find confusing is reading everyone else’s interpretation of LL’s words, because they seem to ask the same complicating questions I had or have or possibly will have too. Right now, I find this a very simple concept. I believe it is all about concentrated biodiversity and environmental adaptability. For example, I recently watched a TEDtalk on seeds and the lack of biodiversity in today’s world. The point to the talk is that just about every family had an apple tree named after them. Why? Because that is what best suited their needs and the environment they lived in. To me, this should be the same with cattle, the cattle that I produce in my area may not be the same as the cattle Hilly produces in his or even Dylan produces in his and will definitely not be the same as LL or MK. Why? Our environments are different and our needs may be different. However, that being said, as just like the apples, I assume, the general functional design will stay the same.

LL said in his first post in Reflections that we should be further along and better equipped to breed cattle, but I will tell you that I am more confused than my father is and I am sure he is more confused than his was. We keep coming out with new tools, like EPDs, that are designed by funding from certain industries. However, I think many breeders forget to look at where they came from. For myself, I have put EPD’s on the backburner and have gone to history and tried to learn the visual markings as possibly Bakewell and Bonsma used. Really just trying to keep it simple and figure out what the animals can tell me, not the numbers.

My search for the quick easy answers to how to breed cattle has led me here, like, I assume, many of the fellow readers; however, I have realized my search for the quick and easy breeding has led me to wander in the desert looking for the promise land. Like the people who followed Moses, I will be taught patience, humility, and understanding, but I am preparing myself for the 40 year journey.

I still am yet to figure out the starting point for myself. Coming from an existing cattle operation, we have some cows that have been around for 15+ years and still going strong. They obviously survive and produce in our environment and have so for years. Do I isolate these animals and start a closed herd with them, even though they are like that dog dropped off at the end of the drive (mongrels). Or do I start with some cattle that may be somewhat closely bred, have the right phenotype, focused on the maternal (to a balanced extent) and have been selected for that for the last 20+ years, but, I believe, only have an average lifespan on their existing farm of 10 years tops? I guess my question is really should I (or we) be trying to use the square wheel and rounding it off, or use the oval wheel and adding different spokes to round it off, or find the pieces to make our own wheel from what others are not wanting to keep?

This is just the tip of the iceberg for the questions I have, but they are more focused in order to not make as many mistakes. However, if I get answers to them how do I learn to be patient, humble, and grow my understanding.

I do have one question about the theory that genes shut off and turn on. I read today about birds becoming more diverse as time has past. The article says that the birds will diversify to adapt to a niche. This happens until all niches are full and then extinction catches up. Could this not be the whole point of the genes turning on and off in linebred cattle? Those on off switches are their way of changing to adapt; however, we have to learn to see the adaptations with our own eyes too unless we let nature sort it all out.

Have included the TEDtalk. They are amazing talks that make you think about the future and where we are going and what could be possible.
http://www.ted.com/talks/cary_fowler_one_seed_at_a_time_protecting_the_future_of_food.html
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:22 pm




ahhh, a test for LL, or maybe your fellow "O Canada" crew ...seeing your location on the map, JSelte, it looks like you
are in prime location for the O Canada Gathering next summer... cheers
which reminds me; get those passports early , my fellow Americans Smile
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:17 am

EddieM wrote:
Quote :
Most commercial producers breed their own cattle and are solely responsible for the product they produce....Eddie M's might even look like Beefalo.

Larry, I'll try to find you a Beefalo picture that will surely get Mike into the mood of crossed species production for the Keeney 2013 Fall Sale. This beast was wandering around on the fam in LA after a hurricane a few years ago. Let the waiting begin for this glamour shot if I can find it. But I was hoping that you would tell us a bit about your socks. clown

[img][/img][url][/url]

I'm guessing that this is a Simmalo or a Simbraallo.

[img][/img]

Note the horns: PatB, do you see a defect here? Should we have tested the cow to see if the up horn of the down horn was recessive or primary? Might have injured her horn on a bale grazing experiment.
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:46 pm

40+ years ago I drew one of those beasts in the bull riding in Newcastle Wyoming... Brahma/Buffalo cross... It was really weird with the long wooly hair of the buffalo- but underneath it had the short hair and loose hide you found on the brahma bulls...

And he had a nasty disposition fitting a combo of both breeds...
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:53 pm

EddieM wrote:


[img][/img]

Note the horns: PatB, do you see a defect here? Should we have tested the cow to see if the up horn of the down horn was recessive or primary? Might have injured her horn on a bale grazing experiment.

Heck, that's not a genetic defect that's a product of selection for convenience traits. With one up and one down it can fit through the chute easier (you gotta think marketing Smile ) We had a Luing herd here where they left the antlers on and they had several with this "up and down" horn pattern.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:39 pm

eddiem I thought that was an adaptation to get thru the brush easier. It might be handy up in canadian scrup pastures.
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:24 am

Eddie There used to be a whole herd of them on the Army base near me long before my time. But I have seen an old news article and here is a youtube video on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJTHpJRgbFw
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:54 pm

JSelte wrote:
This is the view from the unexperienced tru-line outsider, who has been watching for a while and not quite sure where to start.
Tru-line to me is exactly what LL states: the ability to consistently breed animals that will return you the highest net return over their life for the lowest cost.

What I find confusing is reading everyone else’s interpretation of LL’s words, because they seem to ask the same complicating questions I had or have or possibly will have too. Right now, I find this a very simple concept. I believe it is all about concentrated biodiversity and environmental adaptability. For example, I recently watched a TEDtalk on seeds and the lack of biodiversity in today’s world. The point to the talk is that just about every family had an apple tree named after them. Why? Because that is what best suited their needs and the environment they lived in. To me, this should be the same with cattle, the cattle that I produce in my area may not be the same as the cattle Hilly produces in his or even Dylan produces in his and will definitely not be the same as LL or MK. Why? Our environments are different and our needs may be different. However, that being said, as just like the apples, I assume, the general functional design will stay the same.

LL said in his first post in Reflections that we should be further along and better equipped to breed cattle, but I will tell you that I am more confused than my father is and I am sure he is more confused than his was. We keep coming out with new tools, like EPDs, that are designed by funding from certain industries. However, I think many breeders forget to look at where they came from. For myself, I have put EPD’s on the backburner and have gone to history and tried to learn the visual markings as possibly Bakewell and Bonsma used. Really just trying to keep it simple and figure out what the animals can tell me, not the numbers.

My search for the quick easy answers to how to breed cattle has led me here, like, I assume, many of the fellow readers; however, I have realized my search for the quick and easy breeding has led me to wander in the desert looking for the promise land. Like the people who followed Moses, I will be taught patience, humility, and understanding, but I am preparing myself for the 40 year journey.

I still am yet to figure out the starting point for myself. Coming from an existing cattle operation, we have some cows that have been around for 15+ years and still going strong. They obviously survive and produce in our environment and have so for years. Do I isolate these animals and start a closed herd with them, even though they are like that dog dropped off at the end of the drive (mongrels). Or do I start with some cattle that may be somewhat closely bred, have the right phenotype, focused on the maternal (to a balanced extent) and have been selected for that for the last 20+ years, but, I believe, only have an average lifespan on their existing farm of 10 years tops? I guess my question is really should I (or we) be trying to use the square wheel and rounding it off, or use the oval wheel and adding different spokes to round it off, or find the pieces to make our own wheel from what others are not wanting to keep?

This is just the tip of the iceberg for the questions I have, but they are more focused in order to not make as many mistakes. However, if I get answers to them how do I learn to be patient, humble, and grow my understanding.

I do have one question about the theory that genes shut off and turn on. I read today about birds becoming more diverse as time has past. The article says that the birds will diversify to adapt to a niche. This happens until all niches are full and then extinction catches up. Could this not be the whole point of the genes turning on and off in linebred cattle? Those on off switches are their way of changing to adapt; however, we have to learn to see the adaptations with our own eyes too unless we let nature sort it all out.

Have included the TEDtalk. They are amazing talks that make you think about the future and where we are going and what could be possible.
http://www.ted.com/talks/cary_fowler_one_seed_at_a_time_protecting_the_future_of_food.html

Our environments are different and our needs may be different. However, that being said, as just like the apples, I assume, the general functional design will stay the same.

I agree; a basic type for reproduction...but end product cow types are going to vary greatly ? As for what cows to start a closer breeding project with, I don`t believe there to be any better choice than your own cattle, and no time like the present...
as to turn on/turn off genes, the switch in my brain hasn`t turned on yet... Smile

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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:27 am

quick chat with Bob Howard yesterday...Char sired steers from "Shoshone" cows...live wt, 1376 lb; 88 % Choice or better, 8% yield grade 4, remainder 2 and 3`s...isn`t crossbreeding "truer lines" amazing in what can be accomplished RIGHT NOW...
DV can cross Angus-Longhorn and make long lasting, survival cows RIGHT NOW...Bob can breed heifers to Wagyu, range calve them, and make prime beef RIGHT NOW...
the only improvement needed is to make truer breeds... that won`t happen over night, so one must start RIGHT NOW....
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:27 am

I'm trying to use "breeds" to produce terminal genetic results because of the "breed" differences, instead of using "breeds" to create black-hided illusions of genetic consistancy that are a "blend" that gets bred to a"blend" which gets "crossed with a "blend" all lost in illusionistic bliss. Illusionistic bliss is the composite breeders ultimate down fall but it looks fun while the "juice" lasts. The more bliss, the bigger the hat. DV.. no line on my fishing pole, but the guy fishing down the shore line, he doesn't have a hook, the next guy has no bait and the next person is a lady with a big stringer of fish, so you tell me"what it is"
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