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 what true line means to you?

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:11 am

Thx Chris,
cattle breeding is an industry that has pussy-footed around, holding their nose, everyone`s BS for too long...jumping right into the middle of the pile may not determine the constituency of the BS, but I`ve sure learned a lot about the different kinds of people pooping it over time... damn few can stand to have their BS challenged...why ?
And I appreciate RV jumping right into the middle of this challenge and answering honestly, so we can build on something stronger than BS...

Beginning at the last question,

7. So we need to promote closer breeding in order to sell it competitively? What is the factual proof you will offer to confirm the benefit?

RV answers
Shoshone Angus/LL, Victor Domino/Danny Miller, Line one/Gene Meitler, etc.


I have not seen one piece of factual, satistical data to show these herds have reduced variation...if data doesn`t exist, what would you create to determine reduced variation? Pedigree differences exist, that in theory, is said to reduce variation by common descent...but if you are using that theory to project reduced variation, why would you not consider the closer breds more valuable? or like Falloon, do you still prefer variation to make change?
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:10 am

Closer breeding is a basic of the TruLine concept....so...let`s quantify rather than hypothesize what Tru-Line means to you...

1. would closer breeding cause you to buy from a breeder who close breeds versus one who does not?

Now, maybe... but before I understood what was going on, seeing was believing and I looked for consistency in the breeders cow herd under similar management to my own

2. how would you determine who is a line breeder and who is not?

I don’t see it as in or out, for me it comes down to a more graduated standard with mile markers to add perspective, such as... How long has the herd been closed genetically? How many cattle were included in the original population at the time of isolation?

3. how would you differentiate the level of inbreeding between bulls in a linebreeders herd ?

That to me could only be answered by the breeder as he would have seen his cattle throughout the process and have an understanding of what he is looking at.
But if I had to choose I would look at them in a group and sort off the most different and assume the remaining group representative of the population and gate cut.


4. Once determined, would you pay more for a more highly inbred bull?

Again it would depend on a number of situational factors, but there will always come a point where it makes more "cents" to breed my own.

5. If closer breeding doesn`t influence your buying decisions, would you pay the same for crossbred bulls as outcrossed bulls within a breed registry? why, or why not?

Papers aside it would depend on the types crossed, similar types for a specific purpose will be better suited for that purpose so I can see their value in dollars and usefulness to me incrementally higher than a crossing of types as once you start crossing types the value to me would be hard pressed to gain elevation over pound price in my current paradigm.

6. If you won`t pay more, why the hell am I doing this?

The only rule we will need here is the Golden Rule. Wink

7. So we need to promote closer breeding in order to sell it competitively? What is the factual proof you will offer to confirm the benefit?

Like “The Little Red Hen”

As you can see TomD doesn’t want to be disturbed.




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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:27 pm

Stupid chicken, did all that work and couldn't even sell the bread.
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:55 am

Quote :
1. would closer breeding cause you to buy from a breeder who close breeds versus one who does not?
Depends if I want to build a herd or sell terminals, if he knows what he is doing, if he has similar goals in his cattle as I do and how honest he is/seems. Honesty would be a question on any breeder selection; don’t want a “used car creampuff car saleman” as a seedstock provider.

Quote :
2. how would you determine who is a line breeder and who is not?
A. He has more than one or two generations of cows from his own herd or another linebred herd and has a planned breeding program.
B. He shows some proof that he has a goal and efforts to linebred to a given individual or family of animals.

Quote :
3. how would you differentiate the level of inbreeding between bulls in a linebreeders herd ?
Either through his hand records or by registration papers. I would be interested in levels of performance in contemporary groups of inbreds, too.

Quote :
4. Once determined, would you pay more for a more highly inbred bull?
Maybe, as a proven bull. Or later as a repeat buyer. But proof to me would be line crosses to prove the true functional value.

Quote :
5. If closer breeding doesn`t influence your buying decisions, would you pay the same for crossbred bulls as outcrossed bulls within a breed registry? why, or why not?
No; junk in – junk out. Why buy and know you are expecting a 4 way split?

Quote :
6. If you won`t pay more, why the hell am I doing this?
Individual question that deserves an individual answer.

Quote :
7. So we need to promote closer breeding in order to sell it competitively? What is the factual proof you will offer to confirm the benefit?
If they don’t know, they don’t know. ABS and AAA aren’t going to advertise for you. Where is North, South Carolina? If you don’t know then you need a map.
Factual proof is the increased economic benefit of line crosses unless you already know that you want to do linebreeding.
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:29 pm

Quote :
Quote:
5. If closer breeding doesn`t influence your buying decisions, would you pay the same for crossbred bulls as outcrossed bulls within a breed registry? why, or why not?
No; junk in – junk out. Why buy and know you are expecting a 4 way split?

Abstract

Least squares means, genetic (sigma g), and phenotypic (sigma p) standard deviations, and phenotypic coefficients of variation (CV) were estimated on an age-constant basis for growth, carcass, and meat traits of castrate males from 12 breed groups combined, for 9 purebreds combined, and for the F3 generation of three composite populations combined to which the nine purebreds contributed. Also, heritabilities (h2) and genetic (rg) and phenotypic (rp) correlations were estimated among growth, carcass, and meat traits for all breed groups combined involving 1,594 individuals that were the progeny of 306 sires (214 purebred and 92 composites). Coefficients of variation and sigma g generally were similar for composites and contributing purebreds for growth and size-related traits. For traits relating to carcass composition and meat quality, means, sigma p, or CV for composites and contributing purebreds generally were similar. Generally, estimates of sigma g and h2 were similar among all breed groups combined, contributing purebreds combined, and composites combined. Generally, rg were high among all measures of carcass fat, indicating major difficulty in achieving a high percentage of retail product simultaneously with a high fat content of the longissimus muscle that is required for carcass quality grade. Generally, rp were of smaller magnitude than rg. All rp of marbling score or percentage of ether-extracted fat in the longissimus muscle with all end-use properties relating to palatability including shear force, and sensory evaluation of tenderness, juiciness, and flavor were below .30.
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:34 pm

Quote :
Factual proof is the increased economic benefit of line crosses unless you already know that you want to do linebreeding.

belaboring the point then, what is the factual proof of economic benefit? Since no one seems willing to pay more for linebred bulls, is that not the most understandable proof that no economic benefit exists?
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:12 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Quote :
Quote:
5. If closer breeding doesn`t influence your buying decisions, would you pay the same for crossbred bulls as outcrossed bulls within a breed registry? why, or why not?
No; junk in – junk out. Why buy and know you are expecting a 4 way split?

Abstract

Least squares means, genetic (sigma g), and phenotypic (sigma p) standard deviations, and phenotypic coefficients of variation (CV) were estimated on an age-constant basis for growth, carcass, and meat traits of castrate males from 12 breed groups combined, for 9 purebreds combined, and for the F3 generation of three composite populations combined to which the nine purebreds contributed. Also, heritabilities (h2) and genetic (rg) and phenotypic (rp) correlations were estimated among growth, carcass, and meat traits for all breed groups combined involving 1,594 individuals that were the progeny of 306 sires (214 purebred and 92 composites). Coefficients of variation and sigma g generally were similar for composites and contributing purebreds for growth and size-related traits. For traits relating to carcass composition and meat quality, means, sigma p, or CV for composites and contributing purebreds generally were similar. Generally, estimates of sigma g and h2 were similar among all breed groups combined, contributing purebreds combined, and composites combined. Generally, rg were high among all measures of carcass fat, indicating major difficulty in achieving a high percentage of retail product simultaneously with a high fat content of the longissimus muscle that is required for carcass quality grade. Generally, rp were of smaller magnitude than rg. All rp of marbling score or percentage of ether-extracted fat in the longissimus muscle with all end-use properties relating to palatability including shear force, and sensory evaluation of tenderness, juiciness, and flavor were below .30.

My eyes glazed over and after I rinsed them with Windex I realized that I did not understand all of it anyway. But is they are having trouble with suitable IMF did they slaughter too early, was the ration too low in energy ro did the crossed cattle get too big for the box and had to go at a maximum liveweight? I'm not sure that it is a happy answer based on a positive outcome.
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:21 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Quote :
Factual proof is the increased economic benefit of line crosses unless you already know that you want to do linebreeding.

belaboring the point then, what is the factual proof of economic benefit? Since no one seems willing to pay more for linebred bulls, is that not the most understandable proof that no economic benefit exists?

But isn't that the vision of inbred lines? Smaller more predictable females bred to terminal males to produce the most profit for the end user of linebred cattle. Is this the end? Are the males of a maternal line the goal or the females? Is the level of culling lower in inbred lines able to make the cost per unit decrease? Wasn't one of the selling points of inbred cattle that they could be produced cheaper or were we just discussing the production model and not the cattle?
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:59 pm

EddieM wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Quote :
Factual proof is the increased economic benefit of line crosses unless you already know that you want to do linebreeding.

belaboring the point then, what is the factual proof of economic benefit? Since no one seems willing to pay more for linebred bulls, is that not the most understandable proof that no economic benefit exists?

But isn't that the vision of inbred lines? Smaller more predictable females bred to terminal males to produce the most profit for the end user of linebred cattle. Is this the end? Are the males of a maternal line the goal or the females? Is the level of culling lower in inbred lines able to make the cost per unit decrease? Wasn't one of the selling points of inbred cattle that they could be produced cheaper or were we just discussing the production model and not the cattle?

we`re not discussing visions; we`re looking for facts to demonstrate some economic value of closebreds so that commercial buyers would pay more, or at least buy more linebred bulls...I have plenty of factual proof I can make smaller cows without linebreeding...so far, I see no real suggestion the propotents of close breeding here would pay enough more for it to cover the expense of it...
we`re all pretty good at extrospection of which I continue to enjoy for it`s revelation about people more than their cattle, but I thought it might be time for some introspection...



Quote :
Coefficients of variation and sigma g generally were similar for composites and contributing purebreds for growth and size-related traits. For traits relating to carcass composition and meat quality, means, sigma p, or CV for composites and contributing purebreds generally were similar. Generally, estimates of sigma g and h2 were similar among all breed groups combined, contributing purebreds combined, and composites combined
and to the above , there was no 4 way split... isn`t that an "old ball coach offensive formation" instead of a cattle term? Smile
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whitecow



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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:13 pm

Maybe the purebreds in this study were not much more homozygous than the composites.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:31 pm

Quote :
we`re looking for facts

Do you have any facts on which to base your current breeding effort with lines for a successful economic return? Is this a thinking exercise or a true quest for successful marketing? Seems that we are shifting gears to get more money per head? Wasn't that something bad a few weeks ago?

Quote :
there was no 4 way split... isn`t that an "old ball coach offensive formation" instead of a cattle term?

We have seen the hybrid corn analogy repeated here as a basis of comparison to go back towards open pollination type breeding of maternal cattle lines. So, is that now scrap for the heap? I know little about football and their splits without bananas. I have had a few ruptured seams in the rear of my pants over the years of ditch jumping and such. A stitch in time saves nine.

Who's on first?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:02 pm

I haven`t scraped anything...but the answer to the question oft asked here, "where does close breeding begin...when is an animal linebred "enough" to be termed close breeding? I think maybe it is when someone will pay for it, either through paying more or greater market share...
money quantifies things
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:49 pm

MKeeney wrote:
I haven`t scraped anything...but the answer to the question oft asked here, "where does close breeding begin...when is an animal linebred "enough" to be termed close breeding? I think maybe it is when someone will pay for it, either through paying more or greater market share...
money quantifies things

but least we dare think we are getting bogged down in money...

Freedom had been hunted round the globe; reason was considered as rebellion; and the slavery of fear had made men afraid to think. But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing. Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791

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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:15 pm

apply to cattle breeding...

Reason and Ignorance, the opposites of each other, influence the great bulk of mankind. If either of these can be rendered sufficiently extensive in a country, the machinery of government goes easily on. Reason obeys itself; and Ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
-- Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man:
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:21 am

whitecow wrote:
Maybe the purebreds in this study were not much more homozygous than the composites.

very plausible...isn`t it hypocritical how so many critisize composites but constantly look for the next outcross within the "breed"? They claim to value their breed, statements like "xxxx is good for the breed", and yet do nothing to make a breed more of a breed , but are certainly sincere in believing they are improving their breed... seeing what breeders do, most must believe that breeds are as inbred as they should be...let me be sure I`m clear as to the minute "quantity" of value I`m asking if even close breeding propotents will expend...is it a determining factor when buying a bull? if it isn`t now, and if it isn`t going to be in the future, then surely I`m doing young breeders that I care about a dis-service by suggesting they close breed some cattle...
the battle has many fronts, but the war is between stabilizing types to be used in a crossing system of those types or "breeds", versus continual improvement as each current breed competes to become the "superbreed"...a process slowed by limiting their super breed formation to only those cattle deemed purebred by a breed association, a limiting factor that upholds an artificial value in the cattle so registered...on we go, to each his own....


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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:38 pm

MKeeney wrote:
I haven`t scraped anything...but the answer to the question oft asked here, "where does close breeding begin...when is an animal linebred "enough" to be termed close breeding? I think maybe it is when someone will pay for it, either through paying more or greater market share...
money quantifies things

Honest advances into the market will require both proof of the product, benefits to the user and information on how to use it. Aren't linebreeders still stuck on "vision" and not on effort if there is no proof and there is still a limited market when money talks? Where would be a target price for linebred bulls? Somewhere between cost plus overhead and profit and an average of $4500? Would there be a graduated increase as the IBC rises?
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:37 pm

EddieM wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
I haven`t scraped anything...but the answer to the question oft asked here, "where does close breeding begin...when is an animal linebred "enough" to be termed close breeding? I think maybe it is when someone will pay for it, either through paying more or greater market share...
money quantifies things

Honest advances into the market will require both proof of the product, benefits to the user and information on how to use it. Aren't linebreeders still stuck on vision and not on effort if there is no proof and there is still a limited market when money talks? Where would be a target price for linebred bulls? Somewhere between cost plus overhead and profit and an average of $4500? Would there be a graduated increase as the IBC rises?

3 good points...our biggest difficultly lies in just how "good" and how "prepotent" a single bull or a population can be made ...nothing that equates to $4500 in my "vision"...
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LCP



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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:43 pm

MKeeney wrote:
EddieM wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
I haven`t scraped anything...but the answer to the question oft asked here, "where does close breeding begin...when is an animal linebred "enough" to be termed close breeding? I think maybe it is when someone will pay for it, either through paying more or greater market share...
money quantifies things

Honest advances into the market will require both proof of the product, benefits to the user and information on how to use it. Aren't linebreeders still stuck on vision and not on effort if there is no proof and there is still a limited market when money talks? Where would be a target price for linebred bulls? Somewhere between cost plus overhead and profit and an average of $4500? Would there be a graduated increase as the IBC rises?

3 good points...our biggest difficultly lies in just how "good" and how "prepotent" a single bull or a population can be made ...nothing that equates to $4500 in my "vision"...

True, you are trying to market something that is not easily quantifiable. The proof I imagine would be something like your photo pedigree you posted recently, or a tour of the herd where one can see the consistency. For example, seeing Jack's heifers - knowing that they weren't hardly sorted - gave me an indicator of the consistency of his gene pool.
Data is a four letter word I know, but perhaps data showing consistency would be proof? ie cow weight/frame distribution at a given BCS? The actual numbers are not what I am referring to, just the distributions. Maybe that doesnt matter either, because I havent a clue the variance of my cow herd. I just know it is wide, and the AVERAGE of them is probably what I'm happy with.

Yet, $4500 might not be too much to pay for a bull that can more often reproduce himself through more consistent progeny and more potential for longevity. If a given line tends to create bulls that breed natural service for 6 or 7 years, that would be of increased monetary value to me. If a bull can breed more cows for more years, it directly impacts cost per cow serviced. Perhaps that is a number which ought to enter into the conversation? Just thinking out loud.
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:23 pm

Hard to get an association type person to give any merit to decreasing variation, but that would be the primary data that would be an impetus for linebreeding; so it seems to me...the geneticist are believers/supporters of population genetics and the use of and need for the variation to improve the "breed"...Falloon`s program an example; except he limits movement only to the genes present in his own herd ; says he wants to and does avoid inbreeding, and yet after 40 years of closed herd, would by neccessity be doing more across the herd inbreeding than many of those proclaiming they are linebreeders here in the USA...
yelp, a few pictures, or a sorted group, has no value beyond showing one`s "ideal" type...so I`ve been challenged to just do my thing, and ignore the competing human nature that largely determines how far any "movement" might go...sorry, that`s just not my nature Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:28 am

EddieM wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
I haven`t scraped anything...but the answer to the question oft asked here, "where does close breeding begin...when is an animal linebred "enough" to be termed close breeding? I think maybe it is when someone will pay for it, either through paying more or greater market share...
money quantifies things

Honest advances into the market will require both proof of the product, benefits to the user and information on how to use it. Aren't linebreeders still stuck on "vision" and not on effort if there is no proof and there is still a limited market when money talks? Where would be a target price for linebred bulls? Somewhere between cost plus overhead and profit and an average of $4500? Would there be a graduated increase as the IBC rises?

Eddie,
been mulling this over a couple days...if one believed that making bulls more closebred created prepotency and acted accordingly, if the base price of a yearling "purebred bull" was $2000, let`s multiply the base price by the % IBC..25% ibc x base =$2500...
just like epds in application of unproven bulls, since ibc is an average, you would only get that 25% response if you used all the bulls that are 25%... Very Happy
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:58 am

MKeeney wrote:
EddieM wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
I haven`t scraped anything...but the answer to the question oft asked here, "where does close breeding begin...when is an animal linebred "enough" to be termed close breeding? I think maybe it is when someone will pay for it, either through paying more or greater market share...
money quantifies things

Honest advances into the market will require both proof of the product, benefits to the user and information on how to use it. Aren't linebreeders still stuck on "vision" and not on effort if there is no proof and there is still a limited market when money talks? Where would be a target price for linebred bulls? Somewhere between cost plus overhead and profit and an average of $4500? Would there be a graduated increase as the IBC rises?

Eddie,
been mulling this over a couple days...if one believed that making bulls more closebred created prepotency and acted accordingly, if the base price of a yearling "purebred bull" was $2000, let`s multiply the base price by the % IBC..25% ibc x base =$2500...
just like epds in application of unproven bulls, since ibc is an average, you would only get that 25% response if you used all the bulls that are 25%... Very Happy

I totally agree. So that will make an honest sale of a predictable linebred bull to do what is expected to be the sale of a proven bull or the semen of a proven bull. This would focus on a single bull and not the population. Not too practical, however, except for the semen angle.

LCP is offering a much better option than what the average sale of today offers: pictures of all offspring rather than the individual for sale. I had some time to waste one day back and looked up the high sellers in the recent Scottish sale. All of the high sellers were pictured animals in the catalog. Were they really better or was there more anticipation of the individual based on the picture? And were the non-pictured animals less worthy? If so, the sorting rate for the few better animals which deserve a picture would be a poor one for an economic basis.

But what if you had the frame work of replacement and sale animal selections from the middle for multiple generations of linebred animals and had price breaks at 12.5%+, 25%+, etc? Honest or speculative? And how would the buyer know?
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:38 am

Eddie, I think that just shows how set-up, staged and ridiculous the purebred game is. All the high dollar bulls already priced, their pictures in the catalog and sold before the sale. There was a Limo bull over there made $50,000 a couple of years ago and I heard across the atlantic a week before the sale both the price and the buyer. The rest of your discussion is over my head so i'll just shut up Smile
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:49 pm

EddieM wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
EddieM wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
I haven`t scraped anything...but the answer to the question oft asked here, "where does close breeding begin...when is an animal linebred "enough" to be termed close breeding? I think maybe it is when someone will pay for it, either through paying more or greater market share...
money quantifies things

Honest advances into the market will require both proof of the product, benefits to the user and information on how to use it. Aren't linebreeders still stuck on "vision" and not on effort if there is no proof and there is still a limited market when money talks? Where would be a target price for linebred bulls? Somewhere between cost plus overhead and profit and an average of $4500? Would there be a graduated increase as the IBC rises?

Eddie,
been mulling this over a couple days...if one believed that making bulls more closebred created prepotency and acted accordingly, if the base price of a yearling "purebred bull" was $2000, let`s multiply the base price by the % IBC..25% ibc x base =$2500...
just like epds in application of unproven bulls, since ibc is an average, you would only get that 25% response if you used all the bulls that are 25%... Very Happy

I totally agree. So that will make an honest sale of a predictable linebred bull to do what is expected to be the sale of a proven bull or the semen of a proven bull. This would focus on a single bull and not the population. Not too practical, however, except for the semen angle.

LCP is offering a much better option than what the average sale of today offers: pictures of all offspring rather than the individual for sale. I had some time to waste one day back and looked up the high sellers in the recent Scottish sale. All of the high sellers were pictured animals in the catalog. Were they really better or was there more anticipation of the individual based on the picture? And were the non-pictured animals less worthy? If so, the sorting rate for the few better animals which deserve a picture would be a poor one for an economic basis.

But what if you had the frame work of replacement and sale animal selections from the middle for multiple generations of linebred animals and had price breaks at 12.5%+, 25%+, etc? Honest or speculative? And how would the buyer know?

there is the all one price LL method; most pragmatic for selling and as a close breeding method, I do believe...close a population; set your selection standard minimums; cull the failures, and in the process, the level of close breeding becomes self-regulating...and all bulls are priced the same...take your pick...
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:12 am

What is the price of not close breeding and selling something that is not predictable. And why not price the cattle at a sustainable price for the bull raiser and the commercial producer.

My answer to the first question is if you know better and do the first it is your own integrity that you are losing. Life on earth is to short in my opinion to not forge forward.

About sustainabilty the bull raiser needs to know all of his cost and a profit instead of a crap shoot at the end. If they are priced that way and explained to most commercial producers they will agree. The other thing if you raise maternal cattle the females will also have a good value seems like that is a win win. just some thoughts from the big easy Bob H
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Larry Leonhardt



Posts : 131
Join date : 2011-08-10

PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:17 am

Imitating Gavin's method of communication with monthly "Pinebank Newsletters", this is my quarterly Sept/Dect 2012 philosophical "TruLine Newsletter".

The weather during this fall harvest has been nearly ideal with a record breaking sugarbeet crop producing 12,247 net pounds of extractable sugar per acre with high purity and low SLM (sugar lost to molasses from impurities)....that 6.12 TPA of pure sugar is attributed to pure reliable seed, free extra sunshine, reliable Shoshone River water, reduction of expensive nitrates and at our least expenditure of labor. I thought this news would be of extreme interest to the many sugarbeet growers here on KC.....urging them to consider changing the "t" to an "f" and applying these beeT production factors to sweeten their beeF production Smile

When Larkota originated this topic asking what TruLine means to each of us, I am very pleased with the responses yet I remain concerned when noticing a few misguided perceptions.....also I am apprehensive about us getting ahead of ourselves.....so be cautious and don't forget to buckle your safety belts while going down this road less traveled. Lest we forget, Brian requoted the basic objective:

True-Line.....Development of parent stock that can REGULARLY produce beef animals which at the lowest possible cost and expenditure of labor give the highest possible and longest lasting net returns. Not just for ourselves, but moreso for the commercial producers.

I had to smile when Larkota wrote that he thinks about this when he goes out in the morning, when stuck in a tractor, looking at his cattle and when he goes to bed at night......I have too for over 30 years but like Kent, it's not my first priority in life, it's only after the other thing Wink I think about. We can create all kinds of crazy artificial monetary values in this business but we can't create cattle, all we can do is change them.

Surely this basic philosophical objective has always been an underlying ambition in beef production, yet the traditional methodology of chasing more from more seems to remain contrary towards that objective. The only proof needed is to look back at the overall results of that methodology to where we are today. So what TruLine means to me is that it offers an optional alternative.....envisioning more reliable and efficient idealistic beef production systems based on establishing genetic truths to the best of our ability....one step at a time. Easier said than done.

A "genetic truth" is a term used by professional breeders when a character or trait is "fixed" (homozygous) and will be transmitted to the next generation with certainty..... whether it remains predominant or not is dependant on the next parent....so the first and most difficult step in this tedious time consuming process is to determine what characters you want to establish or stabilize in a functional type.

The problem is natural law does not permit 100% homozygosity for all its' necessary reasons, and nearly all qualitative characters are also quantitative with interacting relationships...... referred to as genetic trade-offs. So how do we deal with these obstacles, what are our limitations? I've presumed the genetic constitution must have its own built-in regulators and mutations which increase or decrease the gene frequencies of whatever in its survival of the fittest system. So, in order to make sense out of what I've observed, I've made alot of presumptions over many agonizing years based on those observations without any actual proof......it has been a game of truth and consequences. Sorry DF, no scientific proof....the only proof I have from whatever I've done is whatever now stands before my eyes while trying to better understand natural law and its counteracting limitations.

One of my favorite quotes is...."For those who understand, no explanation is needed, for those who do not understand, no explanation is possible." It is only after we have a greater understanding of natural law can we ever create truer monetary values to our works.

.I suppose Pat B might not agree with me but over time I came to believe what we may often label as detrimental genes, that they are as essential in the natural evolutionary process as those we may label as beneficial genes....self-regulated by the dominant and recessive nature of things....either expressed or latent....turning them on and off....and wherein too many beneficial genes can become detrimental for our purpose. Since we can never rid ourselves of either, we're back to our same ole endpoint learning how to manage them for our economic benefit from an infinite number of possibilities.. For me, utilizing the numerous single trait measures and heritability estimates available have become virtually useless. I haven't been able to change one part of an animal without affecting something else either positively or negatively.....I haven't seen much neutrality.

So stuck in this seemingly helpless situation, what I finally concluded that is absolutely the most important, is that we bog ourselves down with so many unecessary complicated and costly details in an industry so full of competitive cynicism and egocentrics, it is easy to understand how the industry is what it is....and that rather than moving closer to the objective reiterrated by Brian above, we keep getting further away....and the faster we go the behinder we get.

For me, it is paramount to simplify and reverse the ever growing complexities being created in beef production, period. Tom Lasater said breeding cattle is a relatively simple endeavor, the difficulty is in keeping it simple. I meant every word I said on the inside back cover of my 1983 TruLine booklet and it took me some time, but I finally rid myself of the useless parasitic elements in this business....tuning out all the incessant competitive nit-picking and bickering. However, my interests are re-ignited when issues arise relating to closer breeding, especially from those who have had so little experience with the subject. MK recently wrote:

.....talk is certainly both cheap and rewarding ...close breeding evidently is neither or it would be practiced rather than praised more often....

In our human society it is common to condemn someone focusing more on whatever it is that we don't do well rather than getting praise for whatever it is that we do well ....and so it is with our cattle. I will not be dragged back down into that snakepit or tangled web of deceit and frivolity trying to compete with traditional methodology and promotion....I am my only competition. Whatever we do will always be praised by some, criticized by others. While I enjoy MK's natural role of being the independent free leader of the fact finding truth squad exposing the fallacies of traditional promotions reveling the bull....or revealing the naked truth of maternal values..... that is not my role.



My role here is more or less educational by sharing my experiences without "STRETCHING THE TRUTH". Exaggerated claims are common In the traditional competitive marketplace....the AI stud business is often criticized by disappointed users who had high expectations In a defensive mode, one of their primary leaders once said the AI studs have the right bulls, we just don't use them properly. Perhaps the AI studs should breed their own bulls to gain a better perspective. And perhaps we also don't use close breeding properly either.

It is easy to understand that to prosper in their marketing business, the AI studs must promote and .offer what the marketplace demands and that greater demand is from people wanting more than they have. To fulfill those wants, the studs simply react by offering semen from individual bulls that are promoted to do more things "better". The reality is that there is very little demand for close breeding unless it exhibits traditional superiority....... in fact we know closer breeding is generally and deliberately avoided.

And it's also easy to understand the difficulty in trying to increase the demand for closer breeding after seeing the results of chasing higher and higher IBC's..... wherein those IBC outliers confuse Dylan who is trying to understand how good is bad and bad is good . I've utilized intensive inbreeding as a tool to save time in the initial identification process of selection....and of course we're all accustomed to selecting outliers TO SAVE TIME in whatever direction we're going....so it would be our natural habit to also chase the highest IBC's. I certainly didn't utilize intensive closer breeding to enhance my monetary values in a marketplace that shuns those procedures.

So when MK posted his seven questions relative to increasing the demand or values for closer breeding, he ended it with - "Dylan, in the lesson for Jan 22 below, Inbreeding and neutral evolution, http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucbhdjm/courses/b242/InbrDrift/InbrDriftPP.pdf , is what I was trying to teach Larry Wink in the car this summer on the way to Jack`s...to no avail Evil or Very Mad "..... Mike knows I can't get pdf on my computer and we debate so many things, that I can't even remember what he was talking about here. So I'm only going to respond to his last question:
7. So we need to promote closer breeding in order to sell it competitively? What is the factual proof you will offer to confirm the benefit?

Thanks a million Hilly for helping out with such a perfect response .... "like The Little Red Hen". .....no better explanation is possible. So Mike,the factual proof of any benefit is in your own herd and what happens there is what will happen in your customers herd. I appreciate your recent thought provoking post showing us what will happen someday.....also just wondering if someday you will change the name of your operation to Keeney Cattle LLC ? Wink

all the Keeney Angus , believed to be "pure" Charolais bulls will look like this someday...




I also wondered if anyone noticed the absence of the word "angus" from my "Shoshone X Strain", and Mike, this may sound smug but I wouldn't dare predict that "all Keeney Angus" will eventually look like this. Most commercial producers breed their own cattle and are solely responsible for the product they produce....Eddie M's might even look like Beefalo. Wink And like most of us, commercial producers must experience the pitfalls before they are finally recognized by them from the choices they made.

With Hilly being a commercial producer, when Mike & I first met him and as he explained his objectives, it quickly became very clear that he recognized the pitfalls of the traditional selection habits much quicker than most of us do.....and wow, what a surprise it was to hear he was looking for "closer bred" cattle to fulfill his objectives. And believe it or not, there is a growing number of commercial breeders out there that are looking for more reliable consistency in the cattle they buy.

Hilly's story as told to us was that his neighbors were going broke raising bigger and bigger cattle, his difficulty was in trying to replace his aging cow herd with the "traditionally best" Angus bulls available. His search for his preferred maternal values eventually landed this Canadian on the doorstep at Red Lodge. I couldn't imagine that there could be such a shortage of "good" maternal bulls, that they would need to be imported. Part of the advantage Hilly has is that he is only concerned about breeding cattle for himself....without the burden of worrying about how to promote and market seedstock to others.

It may be a long ways off Mike, but some day the commercial producers will be programmed to be just like Hilly and your protective services to prevent people from being duped by marketeers will no longer be needed......the early bird will get the worm......so don't worry about the monetary values of your cattle today Mike, they'll be worth much more after we're long gone......mine already seem to be worth more money AFTER they leave my place even though I'm still here. cheers So now all we need to worry about is how to prevent being duped by ourselves, sucked back into those old traditional marketing habits. Wink

MK also posted that research supports the notion that there is little significant difference between today's purebreds and crossbreds. Why would there be if they're all selecting for all the same things. While the factual proof of the differenes between close breeding reducing variation vs. expanded variation can be measured in the distributions of the isolated populations, we must acknowledge that beyond a few individuals, there aren't enough "closer bred" populations available to make many valid comparison. The truth is that today it is a mixed bag of tricks .between registered straightbreds and crossbreds and any benefits between "purebreds" and crossbreds are in how we use them.

It is a factual reality that by expanding and promoting variation from the myriad of possibilities, the benefits from the diversity of the Angus breed has allowed it to become the predominant breed in America. Is it purebred progress when any Angus bull's shortcomings are discovered, there is another Angus waiting in the wings to fulfill those shortcomings while continually adding other "holes"? These pursuits have been described here on KC as filling the holes of one sheet of paper with another, a temporary complimentary process often referred to as the benefits of heterosis or hybrid vigor. We tend to ignor the fact that without stability in the parent population, these short term benefits of heterosis can be an expensive haphazard culling approach.... overwhelmed by the mongrelized "holes" in the distributions over the long term...wherein heterosis must be sustained to avoid regression....all of which has very little to do with improving NET returns.

It is our SELECTION within any population that ultimately determines the amount of variation we get, not whether they are closebred pedigree wise, straightbred or crossbred.

So, if a functional purebred's role is to provide stabilization in order to enjoy longer lasting net returns whether it be via harnessed hybridization or not, the factual genetic reality is that reliable sustainability requires improved prepotency in the parent stock... like it or not. Webster defines prepotency as the unusual ability of an individual or strain to transmit its functional characteristics to offspring because of homozygosity for numerous dominant genes. This predominance surely occurs over time in isolated populations simply from the SELECTION reducing any other disruptive genes. Common sense knows we can't get milk out of a dry cow. I know from experience that chasing and combing individual outliers who may be prepotent in many different characters leads to an economic exercise in futility.

What are my motives for reitterating all of the above about things most of us ALREADY KNOW. We hear and listen but we don't do anything about it. The single point I am trying to make is that it is absolutely imperative that we SIMPLIFY THIS BEEF BUSINESS, if not for others, at least for ourselves. It is little wonder that someone reported that the average span of a registered breeder is seven years, just time enough for the con artistry from within to scavenge the ignorant from their wealth and impossible dreams.

For those so dedicated to improve the efficiences of their own cattle, WE MUST START RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW! Terms like linebreeding, outcrossing, crossbreeding, straightbreeding, references to breeds, IBC's, EPD's, pedigrees, etc. all need to be abandoned and replaced with but one word.....PREPOTENCY. Pedigreed IBC's many be an indicator of prepotency but they are a damn poor indicator of merit.....selection, not perfection determines merit. When I said I have apprehensions about getting ahead of ourseleves, it's a reminder that we can't expect to start at the top and work down, we must start at the bottom and work up....that bottom is the commercial beef market.

Certainly the costs to improve prepotency cannot exceed the potential benefits and few of us can be expected to sacrifice our own livelihood for the benefit of others. Mike and I have had long discussions about the costs of reaching differing degrees of prepotency. How do we improve the prepotency at the lowest possible cost and expenditure of labor? What are the limiting factors? How much monetary value do we place on the time required to improve prepotency? Apparently time is very valuable in the traditional cattle breeding business since the outliers of any preferred selection direction bring the highest dollars in the marketplace....ALL with expectations to get somewhere quicker. Can we afford it? The facts are that anyone in the beef business for the long term cannot afford to ignor improving the beneficial prepotency of their cattle.

Those questions and many more are all ONLY resolved when we consider ourselves as commercial beef producers breeding our own cattle.During my lifetime, IMO the leading edges of the Angus breed were likely the most prepotent for their characteristics during the 50's and ending at its peak during the late 60's The elite breeders of that time were able to perpetuate a common type by crossing the champions from the families of Bardoliers, Bandoliers, Eileenmeres etc. The reigns of many other subsequent popular types also ended as they became more prepotent. Even though these "corrective types" had the ability to transmit their characteristics to offspring more often after 3 or 4 generations....which included ALL their "holes in their sheets of paper", they failed simply because they weren't developed and utilized PROPERLY.

When will we ever learn, remembering when Tom Burke called these interruptions in a direction CROSSroads Wink

I should mention that during my initial stages of the development of a more prepotent FUNCTIONAL strain, at one point in time I had considered pricing my surplus non-parent breeding stock in accordance with their IBC's. That could have had disastrous consequences since I was not far enough along to know whether that improved prepotency within the population was beneficial or detrimental. I have learned that as the outliers of any direction become more prepotent, they are the forerunners revealing indications of what will come, both the good and the bad. The choice then is whether we will utilize prepotency wisely or not..

So here we are back to where we started a couple hundred of years ago.....establishing an ideal.....but we're not starting over since we have those 200 years of experience under our belts. We know the principles of a successful breeder are exceedingly simple, that the difficulty is in the application..... because of greed , lack of perserverance, and the time required in the application

LL in the vicinity of patiently improving the functional prepotency of my cattle at the lowest cost and expenditure of labor to give me the highest POSSIBLE and LONGEST LASTING genuine net returns. cheers

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