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 what true line means to you?

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: the problem with inbreeding...part 1   Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:06 am

Records from up to 19054 registered cows and 10297 calves in 155 herds of the Alentejana cattle breed were used to study the effects of individual (Fi) and maternal (Fm) inbreeding on reproductive, growth and carcass traits, as well as assessing the importance of non-linear associations between inbreeding and performance, and evaluating the differences among sire-families in the effect of Fi and Fm on calf weight at 7 months of age (W7M). Overall, regression coefficients of performance traits on inbreeding were small, indicating a minor but still detrimental effect of both Fi and Fm on most traits. The traits with the highest percentage impact of Fi were total number of calvings through life and calf weight at 3 months of age (W3M), followed by longevity and number of calves produced up to 7 years, while the highest effect of Fm was on W3M. Inbreeding depression on feed efficiency and carcass traits was extremely small and not significant. No evidence was found of a non-linear association between inbreeding and performance for the traits analyzed. Large differences were detected among sire-families in inbreeding depression on W7M, for both Fi and Fm, encouraging the possibility of incorporating sire effects on inbreeding depression into selection decisions.
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:16 am

Abstract

The objective of this study was to quantify the effect of inbreeding on carcass quality, growth rate, live conformation measures, and calving performance in purebred populations of Charolais, Limousin, Simmental, Hereford, and Angus beef cattle using data from Irish commercial and pedigree herds. Variables analyzed are reflective of commercial farming practices. Inbreeding was included in a linear mixed model as either a class variable or a linear continuous variable. Nonlinear effects were nonsignificant across all traits. Inbred animals had decreased carcass weight and less carcass fat. The effects of inbreeding were more pronounced in the British beef breeds. Effects for carcass weight ranged from -0.87 kg (Charolais) to -1.90 kg (Hereford) per 1% increase in inbreeding. Inbred Charolais and Hereford animals were younger at slaughter by 3 and 5 d, respectively, per percentage of increase in inbreeding, whereas the effect of inbreeding on age at slaughter differed significantly with animal sex in the Limousin and Angus breeds. Inbred Limousin and Angus heifers were younger at slaughter by 5 and 7 d, respectively, per percentage of increase in inbreeding. Continental animals were more affected by inbreeding for live muscling and skeletal conformational measurements than the British breeds; inbred animals were smaller and narrower with poorer developed muscle. Calf inbreeding significantly affected perinatal mortality in Charolais, Simmental, and Hereford animals. The effects were dependent upon dam parity and calf sex; however, where significant, the association was always unfavorable. Dam inbreeding significantly affected perinatal mortality in Limousin and Hereford animals. Effects differed by parity in Limousins. Inbred first-parity Angus dams had a greater incidence of dystocia. Although the effects of inbreeding were some-times significant, they were small and are unlikely to make a large financial effect on commercial beef production in Ireland.
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:09 am



Chart courtesy of CSU.....lookin' down

In an attempt to separate BS from truth for any "doubting Thomas", following the CSU chart I could presume that somewhere in between there must be an optimum hetero/homo combination to sustain or stabilize whatever our objective is. Hypothetically, to move from whatever an optimum is to either the left or right the percentage would change and assume the cattle would also change. Established data strongly supports that intentional movement would also either increase or decrease the spherical distributions for better or worse as illustrated by my simple hypothetical spherical distribution charts previously shown on KC.

the above pretty well sums up any need for a "treatsie"...the benefit of working on the right side, the hetero side, is "weight/performance" is maintained so that when the variability that may be greater is sorted and the cull sold, it has greater commercial value.
the further one works to the left side, the more regression, the poorer the performance, and the less value in the "cull"...we expect and generally accept the right side selection to breed down, and hope the closer bred left side to breed "up" when crossed to produce seedless fruit", but separating the cull that is going to breed culls, from the merely regressed/supressed that is going to breed up, is difficult for me...and surely others, a reason most breeders operate at least in the right side center columns of out crossing and crossbreeding...
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:46 pm

is something Troy Marshall wrote actually worth pondering beyond just a quick skim...???

People in agriculture always have tended to be rugged individualists with an attitude of self-reliance. That’s likely borne out of necessity; after all, in agriculture, you tend to be isolated. Outside of family members or an occasional neighbor or hired hand, if something is going to get done, generally you have to do it yourself.

Of course, the world of smartphones has made it a lot easier to communicate today. But when it comes to performing the daily routines of production agriculture, we tend to fend for ourselves. I think this rugged individualism explains a lot of the industry’s failure at productive internal dialogue.

Somewhere along the line, we grew intolerant of anyone with a difference of opinion. I recently picked up an article about six retiring U.S. senators this week who, in their closing speeches, took to the floor to decry the lack of bipartisanship and compromise in government. My first impulse was to agree, but these same politicians (both Democrats and Republicans) who were lamenting the lack of bipartisanship had voting records that indicated they were as partisan as any other of their colleagues.

Of course, bipartisanship and compromise often mean that the other side is expected to give in. We see the same sentiments at work in our industry. On one hand, there are folks who believe that: “If you don’t agree with me, I’ll just quit and start my own group.” On the other, there are folks who condemn those who disagree with them as communists, atheists, or tools of the packer conspiracy.

Being a lone wolf isn't viable

Given the difficulties our industry faces, and what it will take to overcome them, being a lone wolf isn’t a viable option in today’s world; we compete in a global marketplace. Still, we’re proud of our heritage of being fierce individualists – absolute in our positions and unwilling to compromise.

As a result, we tend to segregate ourselves based on our world views. These rugged individuals tend to find themselves surrounded by people with similar beliefs and views, with the goal of the group being largely to validate the dominant thinking, whether it is based on fact or fiction.

As the saying goes, “birds of a feather flock together.” Of course, we all know that people joining together is the best way to address an issue. The difference is whether that group is a flock or a pack.

For instance, I’ve tried herding ducks individually; it’s nearly impossible. But if you can get them together and just kind of push them in the direction you want them to go, they more or less will go with the flow of the group. Yes, they will scatter and go back and forth, but they are calmed by the comfort of the flock.

That’s not unlike humans, who find comfort in associating with those with whom they share beliefs, validate their existence, and are reasonably sure that they will do nothing to challenge the world as they see it. It doesn’t matter whether times are tough, or times are good, the flock believes its best chances lie in remaining in the flock.

Today’s Internet and “new media” make it far easier to join a flock than in the days before these media existed. It just wasn’t as easy to organize and communicate in those days. Today, you can listen to, read and interact with any narrow slice of people who share your beliefs. The leaders of a flock can even make up facts and propagate totally unfounded claims because there is no one to challenge them. Sure, they are challenged by outside forces, but the flock tends to view anyone outside the flock as suspicious.

The flock vs. the pack

Flocking, if I can call it that, is what leads to the fall of most businesses, industries and even countries. It’s the element that allowed the rise of totalitarian regimes like Nazi Germany, various religious cults, and even much of the populism that has befallen our country from time to time regardless of sound economic principles and facts. The one thing that flocking does is provide flock members with comfort; they don’t know where they’re heading, and they’re not positively influencing their environment, but the pressure of having to think for themselves is largely removed. Joining a flock is usually a bad thing, because it encourages its members to just accept whatever the group speak is.

People will come together, it is a necessity, but they do not have to become a member of flock; instead, they can join a pack. Members of a pack don’t lose their individuality or ability to think on their own; in fact, it’s encouraged, and initiative and individual thought and actions are still rewarded.

Packs exist because the members share common goals, and everyone can benefit by working together rather than by themselves. A single wolf might be able to bring down a 1,500-lb. elk, but not without monumental effort fraught with danger. However, a pack can hunt and survive much more easily. Working together as a unit, the pack remains aware of its surroundings (the outside environment), and all the different worldviews opinions and facts. They know they can prosper by understanding the conditions and environment as they truly are, and react accordingly.

They work together to achieve common goals, but they succeed by understanding the circumstances better than anyone, and by retaining their individualism, initiative and ability to be open-minded and think outside of any group mentality. Any rancher can tell you a lone wolf can be a problem, but a pack is a force that must be reckoned with.

Society will always produce the occasional lone wolf, or solitary eagle. But, in general, we are served by working together. The question is whether you decide to join a flock or a pack; after all, picking one over the other will determine to a large extent whether you are the hunter or the hunted. Both provide security, but it’s a false security for members of a flock.


nahhhhhh Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:06 pm

MKeeney wrote:


Chart courtesy of CSU.....lookin' down

In an attempt to separate BS from truth for any "doubting Thomas", following the CSU chart I could presume that somewhere in between there must be an optimum hetero/homo combination to sustain or stabilize whatever our objective is. Hypothetically, to move from whatever an optimum is to either the left or right the percentage would change and assume the cattle would also change. Established data strongly supports that intentional movement would also either increase or decrease the spherical distributions for better or worse as illustrated by my simple hypothetical spherical distribution charts previously shown on KC.

the above pretty well sums up any need for a "treatsie"...the benefit of working on the right side, the hetero side, is "weight/performance" is maintained so that when the variability that may be greater is sorted and the cull sold, it has greater commercial value.
the further one works to the left side, the more regression, the poorer the performance, and the less value in the "cull"...we expect and generally accept the right side selection to breed down, and hope the closer bred left side to breed "up" when crossed to produce seedless fruit", but separating the cull that is going to breed culls, from the merely regressed/supressed that is going to breed up, is difficult for me...and surely others, a reason most breeders operate at least in the right side center columns of out crossing and crossbreeding...

you know Keeney, anybody that spouts off as much as you about cattle breeding, should know you can`t create the right side of the chart unless someone creates the left side of the chart... Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:44 pm

Jimmer, is that you?
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:04 pm

Tom D wrote:
Jimmer, is that you?

Don't think so - the Jimmer spells Keeney with only two e's and doesn't have a sense of humour. Can't be coffinboner either - never seen him post over 30 words without at least one spelling mistake. The mystery deepens Smile
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:52 pm

JHooligan wrote:
MKeeney wrote:


Chart courtesy of CSU.....lookin' down

In an attempt to separate BS from truth for any "doubting Thomas", following the CSU chart I could presume that somewhere in between there must be an optimum hetero/homo combination to sustain or stabilize whatever our objective is. Hypothetically, to move from whatever an optimum is to either the left or right the percentage would change and assume the cattle would also change. Established data strongly supports that intentional movement would also either increase or decrease the spherical distributions for better or worse as illustrated by my simple hypothetical spherical distribution charts previously shown on KC.

the above pretty well sums up any need for a "treatsie"...the benefit of working on the right side, the hetero side, is "weight/performance" is maintained so that when the variability that may be greater is sorted and the cull sold, it has greater commercial value.
the further one works to the left side, the more regression, the poorer the performance, and the less value in the "cull"...we expect and generally accept the right side selection to breed down, and hope the closer bred left side to breed "up" when crossed to produce seedless fruit", but separating the cull that is going to breed culls, from the merely regressed/supressed that is going to breed up, is difficult for me...and surely others, a reason most breeders operate at least in the right side center columns of out crossing and crossbreeding...

you know Keeney, anybody that spouts off as much as you about cattle breeding, should know you can`t create the right side of the chart unless someone creates the left side of the chart... Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes


There is wisdom in those words. How many I wonder, have ever thought of the fact that indeed, that an outcross cannot occur if there has not been an in-cross.?
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:10 am

Grass farmer you are right that is way too good of spelling to be the JIMMER. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:33 am

partied too late{10pm} Smile last night to check in; and got to do that more often; slept til morning....with a name like Hooligan; I expected as much...but Bootheel is right, makes sense, anybody is welcome that makes sense...even if we don`t like their tone Smile
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:20 am



I wonder how far the far left can reach to the right beyond the mid-point? Can it even get back to the mid-point?

Talked with Mike Callan yesterday, who said say hello to Dennis and Larry...Mike produced 4 way cross seed corn that went in the bag...so, calling the standing stalk "female", and breeding it to the unrelated double cross "male", that parent stock corn produced about 70 bu per acre on average...the 4 way cross seed produced had potential to make 250 bu per acre...lots of reach...having seen inbred lines of corn growing, I would guess those at 15 bu per acre...I`m quite sure this isn`t possible; certainly not pragmatic with cattle breeding...
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:32 pm

I would like to share some observations from last years breeding to Akaushi to our linebred heifers, I feel that because they were similiar in size and body type that we did not see much growth and I think actualy lost pounds. They should be as unrelated as possiable but no heterosis. We also have a group of these calves out of just commercial cows that are crossed up and they have more lbs than the first calf heifers calves. My question goes back to is heterosis in cattle just a reflection of the mothers, grandmothers etc body weight? Bob H
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:48 pm

Bob H wrote:
I would like to share some observations from last years breeding to Akaushi to our linebred heifers, I feel that because they were similiar in size and body type that we did not see much growth and I think actualy lost pounds. They should be as unrelated as possiable but no heterosis. We also have a group of these calves out of just commercial cows that are crossed up and they have more lbs than the first calf heifers calves. My question goes back to is heterosis in cattle just a reflection of the mothers, grandmothers etc body weight? Bob H
good questions Bob...since inbreds only return phenotypically to their true genetic level when outcrossed, I guess this is saying?? the genetic level of the female population is higher than the Akauski, and therefore, the Akauski takes weight from the females that heterosis does not overcome...blowing my pictures, which were not offered as proof, but food for thought...of my little purebred Waygu bull weighing 850 having a half brother from an Angus cow weighing 1150 as being the result of heterosis...maybe it is just flip of the coin genetics, and he`ll breed his growth... Smile but gessssh, lose his light birthweight ?? Sad
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:30 pm

seems to me Keeney, that if you weren`t so damn prejudiced against the author because he`s mainstrean through and through, that last part is what you guys proclaim to be...

People will come together, it is a necessity, but they do not have to become a member of a flock; instead, they can join a pack. Members of a pack don’t lose their individuality or ability to think on their own; in fact, it’s encouraged, and initiative and individual thought and actions are still rewarded.
Packs exist because the members share common goals, and everyone can benefit by working together rather than by themselves. A single wolf might be able to bring down a 1,500-lb. elk, but not without monumental effort fraught with danger. However, a pack can hunt and survive much more easily. Working together as a unit, the pack remains aware of its surroundings (the outside environment), and all the different worldviews opinions and facts. They know they can prosper by understanding the conditions and environment as they truly are, and react accordingly.
They work together to achieve common goals, but they succeed by understanding the circumstances better than anyone, and by retaining their individualism, initiative and ability to be open-minded and think outside of any group mentality.
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:21 pm

JHooligan wrote:
seems to me Keeney, that if you weren`t so damn prejudiced against the author because he`s mainstrean through and through, that last part is what you guys proclaim to be...

People will come together, it is a necessity, but they do not have to become a member of a flock; instead, they can join a pack. Members of a pack don’t lose their individuality or ability to think on their own; in fact, it’s encouraged, and initiative and individual thought and actions are still rewarded.
Packs exist because the members share common goals, and everyone can benefit by working together rather than by themselves. A single wolf might be able to bring down a 1,500-lb. elk, but not without monumental effort fraught with danger. However, a pack can hunt and survive much more easily. Working together as a unit, the pack remains aware of its surroundings (the outside environment), and all the different worldviews opinions and facts. They know they can prosper by understanding the conditions and environment as they truly are, and react accordingly.
They work together to achieve common goals, but they succeed by understanding the circumstances better than anyone, and by retaining their individualism, initiative and ability to be open-minded and think outside of any group mentality.


Hot Lips Hoolihan, are you saying "us guys" are a pack or a flock? Be careful not to ruffle any feathers.
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:07 pm

Tom D wrote:
JHooligan wrote:
seems to me Keeney, that if you weren`t so damn prejudiced against the author because he`s mainstrean through and through, that last part is what you guys proclaim to be...

People will come together, it is a necessity, but they do not have to become a member of a flock; instead, they can join a pack. Members of a pack don’t lose their individuality or ability to think on their own; in fact, it’s encouraged, and initiative and individual thought and actions are still rewarded.
Packs exist because the members share common goals, and everyone can benefit by working together rather than by themselves. A single wolf might be able to bring down a 1,500-lb. elk, but not without monumental effort fraught with danger. However, a pack can hunt and survive much more easily. Working together as a unit, the pack remains aware of its surroundings (the outside environment), and all the different worldviews opinions and facts. They know they can prosper by understanding the conditions and environment as they truly are, and react accordingly.
They work together to achieve common goals, but they succeed by understanding the circumstances better than anyone, and by retaining their individualism, initiative and ability to be open-minded and think outside of any group mentality.


Hot Lips Hoolihan, are you saying "us guys" are a pack or a flock? Be careful not to ruffle any feathers.

if you knew more about evolution TomD, you would be more cautious about speaking disparagingly of my cousins; and remember all animals in a species don`t evolve at the same pace; thus danger is linear with individual rate of change...





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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:23 pm

That aint the jimmer fer sure that shit is way over the jimmers head. Maye be J Boob's
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:12 am

Larry Leonhardt wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
composite breeding that relies on "retained heterosis" as a primary asset must avoid selection in the composite progeny to avoid favoring one of the component breeds more than another; thus upsetting the level of heterosis... selection can only be done in the parent breeds that comprise the composite...
if selection is done in the progeny, then the composite starts to become a breed, and must then rely on genetic merit as the primary asset rather than heterosis...

Thanks a million Mike for helping explain my recent posts, you can say more in a few words than I can with thousands....like when you said "the only best cow that matters economically is the one that can be reproduced with regularity". Therefore, now that Kendra is a new addition to my harem, her primary assignment is to be my ghost writer. And since Linda is now voluntarily unemployed, her part-time duty is to manage our imaginary TruLine Store while you're out golfin'. Of course, Erica's full time job remains the same tryin' ta keep you know who outta trouble.

LL (lucky larry)

“Until one is committed, there is hesitancy, the chance to draw back-- Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth that ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then Providence moves too. All sorts of things occur to help one that would never otherwise have occurred. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents and meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamed would have come his way. Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. Begin it now.”
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:30 pm

Bob H wrote:
I would like to share some observations from last years breeding to Akaushi to our linebred heifers, I feel that because they were similiar in size and body type that we did not see much growth and I think actualy lost pounds. They should be as unrelated as possiable but no heterosis. We also have a group of these calves out of just commercial cows that are crossed up and they have more lbs than the first calf heifers calves. My question goes back to is heterosis in cattle just a reflection of the mothers, grandmothers etc body weight? Bob H
Bob,
what is your experience and thoughts on the growth of Akaushi calves compared to the previous year`s use of Wagyu? Are the Akaushi thicker, a better selling type? maybe it doesn`t matter, since you have a contract? Smile
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:04 pm

The Akaushi has more calf than a Wagyu and if you had to sell them on the open market you should have a better experience. Our thought was if we needed to we would make them fat and sell them on a choice or better grid. With that said I believe that Heartbrand is a good company and we will just deliver them to them next fall. Bob H
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:37 pm

I was curious as to how Larry Leonhardt was holding up at, what is it 77 now, with hareem of women? This topics come to mind as I got a new woman today. Remarkably similar to the old one but this one is dark haired. I feel a bit adulterous, and wondered how a master cattle breeder handles this situation? It is new territory for a young whippersnapper such as myself.


Bootheel, Truline Bound
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:55 pm

MKeeney wrote:
LL,
This is a leading question on the way to a treatsie "the problem with close breeding" authored by me Smile , discussed by whoever Twisted Evil
the question...
what phenotypic stages of development are most affected by closer breeding?

I have read somewhere, that the effects are greatest pre-yearling...your experience?


All stages can and or will be affected . If you choose to close breed you must decide what MATURITY level you wish to persue . And Be Patient . Jon
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:48 am

Bootheel wrote:
I was curious as to how Larry Leonhardt was holding up at, what is it 77 now, with hareem of women? This topics come to mind as I got a new woman today. Remarkably similar to the old one but this one is dark haired. I feel a bit adulterous, and wondered how a master cattle breeder handles this situation? It is new territory for a young whippersnapper such as myself.


Bootheel, Truline Bound
as Jon suggests, Patience Smile
LL is working on his Christmas message, which, at first skim, makes me exceedingly cheerful and full of joy Smile
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:19 pm

MKeeney wrote:


Chart courtesy of CSU.....lookin' down

In an attempt to separate BS from truth for any "doubting Thomas", following the CSU chart I could presume that somewhere in between there must be an optimum hetero/homo combination to sustain or stabilize whatever our objective is. Hypothetically, to move from whatever an optimum is to either the left or right the percentage would change and assume the cattle would also change. Established data strongly supports that intentional movement would also either increase or decrease the spherical distributions for better or worse as illustrated by my simple hypothetical spherical distribution charts previously shown on KC.

the above pretty well sums up any need for a "treatsie"...the benefit of working on the right side, the hetero side, is "weight/performance" is maintained so that when the variability that may be greater is sorted and the cull sold, it has greater commercial value.
the further one works to the left side, the more regression, the poorer the performance, and the less value in the "cull"...we expect and generally accept the right side selection to breed down, and hope the closer bred left side to breed "up" when crossed to produce seedless fruit", but separating the cull that is going to breed culls, from the merely regressed/supressed that is going to breed up, is difficult for me...and surely others, a reason most breeders operate at least in the right side center columns of out crossing and crossbreeding...




As I mentioned before I’ve been offline for a while, so I’ve been catching up...

As Larry has patiently tried to share his experiences using different illustrations realizing the diversity of the reading population, the most helpful for my simple mind has been the CSU chart in tandem with the Spherical Distribution chart and for those that have been here for a while will be getting tired of me saying that.

The somewhat recent exchange between Larry and Iain was appreciated as it once again revisits the basic premise of the Tru-Line objective from practical starting points of isolation for the average breeder, as we all have to start somewhere.

For those that see the advantages of a Tru-Line approach to cattle breeding as I do, the first step in my mind is isolating a population. This process doesn’t need to involve your whole herd; there are no set population numbers or need to rush to high scientific guesstimits of IBC% to be a part of this simple approach.

At isolation the breeder would identify the functional purpose of the population and presumably the selected population that would possess traits relevant to that purpose.

Using the two charts helps me gain a general perspective of relativity on where an isolated population may be at when compared to the general population...

As Larry pointed out no matter where you start, if you expect to maintain your population at that level, you have to hold your spot on the two charts. As JD coined “you can’t change them without changing them”
So to me that means at the simple decision to isolate a population you’ve committed to the fact that the population will never be the same, as selection moving forward by both the breeder and the environment will cause movement.

So then the question becomes how to interpret this movement... If the preferred genes were present at closing they can only be eliminated by selection, if selection is performed by function within an environment, you can then start to see why there is safety in numbers as it is easier to identify the average of the population.

If for example you close a population and your bull selection practice is based on bigger outlier weights, the cows that survive the environmental selection have to pull that outlier bull pen back toward the average that environment can support so they would generally be the smaller cows, but both the smaller cows and bigger bulls would tend to breed truer to the average of the population then themselves anyway. So without opening up the population sooner or later you with end up in the middle and time being methodical, why take the long way around when we could just select from the middle to begin with.

The hardest part I see is encouraging breeders to not get overwhelmed with the “weaknesses” of a population and open it up and negate the prepotency as well as the Time-Saver aspect. The beauty of the Tru-Line approach is the ability of lines to breed true to their fix traits for use in complementary crosses.

I think Larry has proven that you can get along just fine in the center of the chart, I also believe that’s were natures populations reside. I see little need for the average breeder to push his population left of center until they have resided in the middle and understand that production level, realizing further movement to the left will have to be subsidized with luck, knowledge and money unless exploited from a marketing purposes.

So with that in mind the recent statement made by JHooligan “you know Keeney, anybody that spouts off as much as you about cattle breeding, should know you can`t create the right side of the chart unless someone creates the left side of the chart... ”

I agree does show a basic understanding of the concept, the implication that Mike doesn’t understand the basic premise is a little over the top, as it is a big reason for starting the corner...

I don’t believe you have to be left of center to make right of center, just further left to make right, the greater the distance between the two points would be more a matter of efficiency as breeding left of center without a planed and more systematic approach then the steadily right creeping increasingly mongrelized population of current seed stock, would be costly.

So Grassy you can quit beating you head against the wall, as I see it you and your population will be cutting edge once the genes are thoroughly mixed and stirred under the current guise of a seed stock industry.
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Grassfarmer



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Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:30 pm

Thanks for that Craig, just an excellent post for me to think about. Thanks to Kent as well for a couple of excellent posts today. It'll take time to thoroughly digest them all. cheers
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PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   

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