Keeney`s Corner

A current and reflective discussion of cattle breeding from outside the registered mainstream
 
HomeUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 what true line means to you?

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 21 ... 38  Next
AuthorMessage
Bob H



Posts : 292
Join date : 2011-02-17
Location : SW Idaho

PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:38 pm

Mike I think that you are right on. If a commercial cattle person can use genetics that are predicitable the rest of the ranching bussiness is easier. We have been putting blabs in calves noses to start the weaning process and preging cows because feed is so high priced. We pregged around 550 mostly Shoshone cows with about 25 late or open so much for saving feed, but what a nice problem to have. The other thing is the calves look just like last year and we should be in bussiness a year from now, god willing.

My wife being announced cancer free for 6 months has brought great joy to me.

Staying the course breeding cattle for the last 14 years has also made my life much simpler. When I look at that set of cows it gives me great pleasure to have listened to Larry Leonhardt and reaped the fruit of his labor. The pages he has written on this site is all a life long process that is a great model testament to me about staying the course and observing to improve ever so slowly to get good enough and shifiting his own peridigms, not using ego to move forward.

Thanks Larry for all of the wonderful females that our family enjoys so much. Bob H
Back to top Go down
Tom D
Admin


Posts : 482
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 38
Location : Michigan

PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:47 pm

Bob H wrote:


My wife being announced cancer free for 6 months has brought great joy to me.


Good stuff Bob, very happy for your family.

Tom
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4007
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:47 pm

Bob H wrote:
Mike I think that you are right on. If a commercial cattle person can use genetics that are predicitable the rest of the ranching bussiness is easier. We have been putting blabs in calves noses to start the weaning process and preging cows because feed is so high priced. We pregged around 550 mostly Shoshone cows with about 25 late or open so much for saving feed, but what a nice problem to have. The other thing is the calves look just like last year and we should be in bussiness a year from now, god willing.

My wife being announced cancer free for 6 months has brought great joy to me.

Staying the course breeding cattle for the last 14 years has also made my life much simpler. When I look at that set of cows it gives me great pleasure to have listened to Larry Leonhardt and reaped the fruit of his labor. The pages he has written on this site is all a life long process that is a great model testament to me about staying the course and observing to improve ever so slowly to get good enough and shifiting his own peridigms, not using ego to move forward.

Thanks Larry for all of the wonderful females that our family enjoys so much. Bob H

“Our species is the only creative species, and it has only one creative instrument, the individual mind and spirit of man. Nothing was ever created by two men. There are no good collaborations, whether in music, in art, in poetry, in mathematics, in philosophy. Once the miracle of creation has taken place, the group can build and extend it, but the group never invents anything. The preciousness lies in the lonely mind of a man.”
― John Steinbeck, East of Eden
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
Bob H



Posts : 292
Join date : 2011-02-17
Location : SW Idaho

PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:01 pm

Is it the spirit of man or the spirit of god in man that makes us all so unique?
I also mispoke early by thanking just Larry for all of the wonderful females in my life, God should also be thanked by me for the wonderful humans that I have in my life, both male and female. Bob H
Back to top Go down
MVCatt



Posts : 114
Join date : 2010-09-24
Age : 43
Location : SW Penn

PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:18 pm

Bob H wrote:
Mike I think that you are right on. If a commercial cattle person can use genetics that are predicitable the rest of the ranching bussiness is easier. We have been putting blabs in calves noses to start the weaning process and preging cows because feed is so high priced. We pregged around 550 mostly Shoshone cows with about 25 late or open so much for saving feed, but what a nice problem to have. The other thing is the calves look just like last year and we should be in bussiness a year from now, god willing.

My wife being announced cancer free for 6 months has brought great joy to me.

Staying the course breeding cattle for the last 14 years has also made my life much simpler. When I look at that set of cows it gives me great pleasure to have listened to Larry Leonhardt and reaped the fruit of his labor. The pages he has written on this site is all a life long process that is a great model testament to me about staying the course and observing to improve ever so slowly to get good enough and shifiting his own peridigms, not using ego to move forward.

Thanks Larry for all of the wonderful females that our family enjoys so much. Bob H

Bob, great news about your wife. I hope God continues to bless you both.

It's commercial guys like you...applying these principals and posting your results here that will make sure that Larry's labor was not in vain. Thanks, Chris
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4007
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:06 pm

Bob H wrote:
Is it the spirit of man or the spirit of god in man that makes us all so unique?
I also mispoke early by thanking just Larry for all of the wonderful females in my life, God should also be thanked by me for the wonderful humans that I have in my life, both male and female. Bob H

Bob,
I think we each have our own unique ideas as to why each human is uniquely different, and yet, all, very much alike...there are as many religions and political parties as there are humans who dare think for themselves... Smile
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:47 am

Bob, I am so happy for you and your straight man Pam. I very much enjoyed your comedy routine when we were at the gathering this past summer. Pam sets em up and Bob knocks em out of the park. A great collaboration that I hope has many more years to go.


Ben
Back to top Go down
Larry Leonhardt



Posts : 131
Join date : 2011-08-10

PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:11 am

MK quoted:

“Our species is the only creative species, and it has only one creative instrument, the individual mind and spirit of man. Nothing was ever created by two men. There are no good collaborations, whether in music, in art, in poetry, in mathematics, in philosophy. Once the miracle of creation has taken place, the group can build and extend it, but the group never invents anything. The preciousness lies in the lonely mind of a man.”
― John Steinbeck, East of Eden

Man's unique creativity is limited to the transformation of what has already been created Very Happy

Bob Howard wrote:

Is it the spirit of man or the spirit of god in man that makes us all so unique?
I also mispoke early by thanking just Larry for all of the wonderful females in my life, God should also be thanked by me for the wonderful humans that I have in my life, both male and female. Bob H


Great news to hear the confirmation of Pam's freedom of cancer, I vividly remember the radiance of our Creator shining in Pam's eyes and her gorgeous smile last August....what you may not know Bob is that I asked her if she would marry me and she said "YES!".....I didn't mention that this old man's herd of cattle wouldn't come with him. Very Happy

While I greatly appreciate your thanks Bob, you have paid me more than enough by just having all those wonderful females in your herd. It was not me, but your unique individual power of the mind over matter that caused you to seek out those qualities you so enjoy in your cattle.....I am thankful that we both found a source from all the biodiversity that is available along with having the individual freedom of choice and self-responsibility....to choose a little bit of alot of things or alot of a few things.....while selecting for endurance with stayers or mixing them with sprinters depending on the length of the race. We are certainly not lacking biodiversity in this business, what is sorely lacking is improvement in the genetic stability or "purity" of whatever kind we choose.
While on this subject of biodiversity, I'd like to respond to JSelte's sincere post of November 1, 2012 describing his contemplations of WHERE TO START or what type to pursue and what could be POSSIBLE in the future. To avoid extinction, I definitely wouldn't try to start with man's "creation" of the cow that Eddie M found....thankful that Mother Nature renders freaks with sterility while I'm contrarily reminded that the moose successfully evolved from the left-over parts of other animals without man's help .
Very Happy




While we live in the present most of us still think about planning for the future on a daily basis from whatever we've discovered during our own past. .I suppose the Chicken Little's of the world would revere Ted Fowler as being a modern day Noah with his museum collection to preserve all the biodiversity in Ag for the future. This has not been a concern for me since I rely on the natural biodiversity Mother Nature built into mankind to preserve whatever will be needed in order to adapt to whatever the future holds....I can rest assured that someone somewhere will do this since I am certain that mankind cannot be smarter than that which created us.

With that reassuring thought in mind, both extinction and renewal seems to be a natural process of evolution's survival of the fittest in this use it or lose it system. I haven't got a clue as to how evolution produced distinct species that have survived to this day, but we know each species has only two kinds, a male & female...and legends suggest that Noah only needed to save a male and female of each species, it doesn't reveal what Noah's selection criteria was for each male and female in order to encompass all the biodiversity needed for the future....natural law takes care of that.
I don't know and don't care whether the Dodo bird became extinct or evolved into a modern day pigeon or whether dinosaurs evolved into birds.....I only know that many of the characteristics of those ancient ancestors have become extinct but life is programmed to go on in one adaptable form or another whether we want to preserve the status quo or not. I have no personal need to know who or how the universe was created, or how the ancient Egyptians mummified the dead and built the pyramids, or who the ancient ancestors of todays cattle were......I only need to accept that whatever is....is. I have my hands full focusing on what I can control with no time left for things beyond my control....so I'll let Hilly carry all the burdens of the world with that invisible atlas on his shoulders, I need more sleep than he does. Very Happy




I've often wondered what thinkers and philosophers contribute to society and why some practice what they preach while others are hypocrites. MK was being humble when he said "as to turn on/turn off genes, the switch in my brain hasn`t turned on yet... " Very Happy To the contrary, despite external forces, MK's experience, a gift of reason and common sense, some of the switches in MK's mind have been turned on which have caused him to adapt to change from the status quo....and whether MK likes his preprogrammed role or not, he is a part of the slow but inevitable ongoing evolutionary process in the big picture of the cattle breeding world. MK would scoff at the thought that he is among the "chosen ones" of this inevitable evolutionary process of checks and balances......we all are and those independent thinkers on KC are just the temporary evolutionary outliers that began eons ago.
I don't need to know why we are all uniquely preprogrammed to do whatever it is we do, or why we each think like we do.....or how we are influenced by our environmental factors. Those factors must've caused some switches in my brain to turne on causing me to search for the answers to the problems with the cattle in my life, and beyond my control each switch turned on another light until finally the enlightened evolutionary process became amazingly simple. So Tom D and I laughed while discussing his posted picture explaining to Iain that " those are the lightbulbs turning on in their heads, we're reading Leonhardt. Very Happy .

Tom D wrote:

Isn't it amazing how imbedded it is in us to want to learn by asking questions and enjoy discoveriing the mysteries of life.....I see those twinkling lights in Bob Howard's eyes as we sit and laugh while discussing how simple SUCCESSFUL cattle breeding can actually be.....and those twinkling eyes and smiles on the faces of those who come to KC gatherings not to satisfy their own egos, but to discover and enjoy any merits shared by what others are doing......who could ever forget the continuous gleam and smiles on DV's face during his after dinner talk at Miles City, or when Bootheel talked about his search to discover the truth......all just to find contentment from the frustrations in our lives. I liked that OLD ad that said "our milk comes from contented cows"....no more, today's milk comes from short lived stressed out cows. I'd like to resurrect that theme with "TruLine beef is produced from contented cows". Very Happy

It is an established reality that birds of a feather flock together and MATERNAL cattle breeding is nothing more than selection for those characteristics that adapt in harmony with whatever environment is provided. Whether we're lucky or unlucky, nature ALWAYS gives us what we select for over time. At the PRESENT time, within my isolated population my first priority is not for the greatest, but good maternal function....those with the least problems. Now, all I do is select the functional sons out of those same type of cows and ALLOW the cows to pick their mates as they "flock" together.....Bob calls it putting the boys with the girls and they have little ones . If fertility/reproduction is the most important economic trait, the simple annual preg test sustains and increases the frequency of the selected characters over time while reducing the frequency of any disruptive genes. The proper cow size and type will automatically adapt to the environment that is provided....if that type is not an acceptable choice, we either need to change the environment or suffer the consequences.

Believe it or not, in life I have observed that opposites attract only to restore a more favorable balance, readily conceding that after millions of years, nature is smarter than all of us. Yet, we call this a reversion process when in reality it is sustainable progression. And I've watched how that one "sub species of birds" on Keeneys Corner attack any other disruptive "birds" to protect or defend their environmental harmony....I suppose that is how sub groups of like-minded communities are formed with a bias against disruptive invaders. Very Happy But of course if making money is the primary objective, no individual or group will ever make enough as class warfare begins and sub-divides over and over again. The AAA society provides a great example.
For the FUTURE, the TruLine theme of harnessing hybrid power may be getting monotonous but the principles have been known for over a 100 years....and the benefits are inevitably being improved in a subtle way during this ongoing evolutionary process....fighting it only delays this natural process of man's unique "creativity" to transform one form of energy into another more efficiently. So anyone interested in developing pure strains, for guidance I'd suggest you make a copy and absorb the content of Kent's post of Nov 26, 2012 "Pure Lines" under the general topic of "Breeding Philosophies" along with his other related posts on that topic.

I've discovered that perpetual intensive inbreeding expecting perfection some day is not only very expensive, it is an impossible dream which ultimately will be a path leading to extinction. And it is certainly against the rule of natural law's efforts to sustain adaptable biodiversity via its mutations and distributions. So what is...is, and besides that.we would never know what perfection was without imperfections and if everything was perfect in our Garden of Eden, how boring it would be with nothing left for any of us to do.....living in a garden without any forbidden fruit or anything to be thankful for Very Happy .....finally acknowledging that we have to have poor cattle, sickness and death in order to appreciate good cattle, health and life. .

So we'll always have plenty left to do. MK said,
"this one line says plenty; and I think we know why the following is true:..."We have not focused on maternal and paternal lines...we have spent far too much time trying to blur those lines rather than utilize the differences."Well, I suppose we should be thankful for this circumstance cause if idle hands are the devil's playground, it gives us more to do to keep us out of trouble..... Very Happy cheers .


LL starring in "Its a Wonderful Life" adding lights to Tom's Christmas tree, whistling "Dixie" while I work to reduce the monotony among the KC elves in Santa's workshop jus' tryin' ta keep'em busy building unique TruLine Playhouses for all the wonderful females in our herds who haven't been naughty.....but nice. .
cheers
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4007
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:08 pm

I've discovered that perpetual intensive inbreeding expecting perfection some day is not only very expensive, it is an impossible dream which ultimately will be a path leading to extinction. And it is certainly against the rule of natural law's efforts to sustain adaptable biodiversity via its mutations and distributions.

I have discovered this as well; but thank goodness, it hasn`t cost too much...but I wasn`t expecting perfection, just hoping for continuity...when deciding to close breed, what`s everyone`s plan to avoid close breeding "costing too much"? and Tomd, or MVCatt, don`t you dare say "just keep on working with MK" Shocked Very Happy Very Happy
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
Bob H



Posts : 292
Join date : 2011-02-17
Location : SW Idaho

PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:16 pm

We have had good luck using mutiple sires on groups. We will think that occasionly we see too much inbreeding but wonder if some of what I thought was inbreeding wasn't a viral infection, as all that I thought were to inbreed had been doctored. We don't see enough to change anything that we are doing for now. Bob H
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:17 pm

Waching a cow sale online and trying to catch up at KC a little. What great news Bob. I'm so very happy for you, Pam and your family. Merry Christmas.

Jack
Back to top Go down
Larry Leonhardt



Posts : 131
Join date : 2011-08-10

PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:21 pm

It's too damn cold and snowing outside to do much so here I am trying to avoid all those inside"honey do" jobs that keep stacking up by pretending I'm busy working on "more important things"......philosophical differences.

While celebrating this annual Christmas spirit of giving, it always reminds me that man cannot fully comprehend all the absolute laws of the universe. While searching for truth, some men rely on faith praying for Divine guidance, other's scoff demanding scientific proof. My wife Queen Elizabeth is zealous in both politics and religion where nothing seems absolute in either.....nor is it in cattle breeding. It's been said the only thing certain in life is death & taxes Very Happy

I can see how it might be possible for a man
to look down upon the earth
and be an atheist,
but I cannot conceive how
he could look up into the heavens
and say there is no God

Abraham Lincoln




Photo courtesy of Dylan......lookin' up

From those searching for black and white answers in cattle breeding, I've received a few private inquiries relating to homozygosity's influence in fixing traits. My most immediate concern is that some of my statements related to close breeding may have been misconstrued. Feeling somewhat guilty, I must learn to defer the inner workings of DNA to geneticists, I can only see the outside. My disclaimer is that any assumptions I've made are entirely hypothetical only based on observations and should not be presumed to be the absolute gospel. Smile

Not being a scientist but a simple farmer with only a high school education, my limitations are only consoled somewhat by the fact that even among professional scientists it is common that what was once previously thought to be an established truth is often later disproved or to be in error. I have often been reminded that no one really likes an egostical "know it all"....that an admission to any of our "screw ups" is more appealing. Despite my wife's best efforts to change me, my being an independent "know it all" is probably one of the reasons I have not been converted to Catholicism whose members must go to "confession" seeking absolution on a regular basis..... along with my own failure to understand and focus on the real reason behind the repetitiveness of the "Hail Marys".

Eventually we all develop some kind of philosophy to follow in our own lives. From birth, we become excited over new discoveries but after awhile when they become routine or taken for granted we become complacent and bored, re-ignited only in our quest for newer discoveries. While my own "discoveries" over time have become rather routine and monotonous for me, at my age I now prefer wiling away my time rekindling those original joys by adumbratively sharing the reaffirmation of my "discoveries" with those who may have difficulty in accepting some of them. I will try to be more complete in the future. It is my way of atoning for my sins along the way rather than seeking absolution.

In my previous post discussing biodiversity I noted the general sterility of a Beefalo (I could've used a mule as another example) yet the non sterile Yak strongly resembles a Beefalo....or the mule the Zebra. So when I forewarned that continually intensifying inbreeding would be a path leading to extinction, that exclamation apparently caused some consternation among those who prefer private over public discussions. I learned a long time ago that often in life ours is not to reason why, ours is just to do or die. Very Happy

So, with those perspective thoughts in mind, to publicly elaborate on those questions relating to homo/hetero percentages and fixing traits, I've resurrected the following scientifically prepared hypothetical chart.... I don't know if it is absolute in general or not, but we've observed that both ends of the spectrum generally result in sterility beyond the charts 80 to 90 percentile of either direction.....I don't know why, the spider ate the fly, they just do in order to survive so I accept that it is just the way it is not needing complicated scientific explanations of why things happen. I do know why I do what I do here on KC..... it's to justify why I chose to do what I do Very Happy Very Happy



Chart courtesy of CSU.....lookin' down

In an attempt to separate BS from truth for any "doubting Thomas", following the CSU chart I could presume that somewhere in between there must be an optimum hetero/homo combination to sustain or stabilize whatever our objective is. Hypothetically, to move from whatever an optimum is to either the left or right the percentage would change and assume the cattle would also change. Established data strongly supports that intentional movement would also either increase or decrease the spherical distributions for better or worse as illustrated by my simple hypothetical spherical distribution charts previously shown on KC.

Since science has difficulty with laymen simplicity and bell curves are more commonly used to describe the distributions of a trait or characteristic, I decided it might be better to borrow Kendra's distribution chart to illustrate a single point. Kendra, you have my sincerest gratitude for your timely "qualitative vs quantitative" post. Now I need your skills to help create a scientific formula for what I'm trying to illustrate.....and since you posted MY PICTURE below your posted chart, I was hoping you would marry me to keep that happy look on my face if my polygamous cow herd and dowry came with me......of course you'd also be sharing me with Betty, DeAnn, Erica, Kristina, Linda's, Pam (in alphabetical order) and more as I increase my imaginary harem to help take care of me. Smile Let's assume this bell curve chart is the absolute gospel according to Kendra. Smile



If we bundled up all the cattle into a single group, the distribution from the average or means might look like that. Without any other selection, if we isolated all those that actually were 80% hetero, the distribution from that average might look like this one below



And if we isolated all those that were actually 80% homo, the distribution from the average or means might look like the one below, the distance between the groups should be significantly closer, in theory 96% of this population would be as much alike to their own means as the 34% would be in the 80% hetero group. And if we put them all back together, in theory we would be back to where we started



Now in a real world scenario, I have no idea what the ratio of hetero/homo percentile actually is in my isolated herd...and I don't really need to know other than just to satisfy my curiosity. WITH CONSTANT SELECTION for a single maternal composite of functional values towards a SINGLE maternal TYPE, based on CSU's hetero/homo percentile chart, I could safely say the population of the herd should be about in the middle, or a means of a 50/50 ratio of hetero/homo genotypes...excluding any of my separate side projects. Within these separate side projects, in the traditional world some believe that going beyond a 50% relationship is incest and detrimental, depending on what our objective is. That is another story but for an example taking this one step at a time, from my isolated population Hilly temporarily selected this cow to represent his long term objectives so whatever her actual hetero/homo percentile ratio actually is, regardless of pedigree, it could be presumed to be the optimum hetero/homo combination within this population's biodiversity.




Photo courtesy of Craig Hilman in her Montana environment....lookin' forward




Photo courtesy of Craig Hilman - Same cow a coupla years later in her current Canadian environment......still lookin' forward

And MK temporarily selected this cow from my isolated population for his long term objectives so whatever her actual hetero/homo actually is, regardless of pedigree, it could be presumed to be the optimum hetero/homo combination within this populations biodiversity.



Photo courtesy of Mike Keeney in her Kentucky environment......contemplating which way to look from where she is

And someone temporarily selected this cow from an isolated population representing the optimum combination of hetero/homo for their objective within the existing available biodiversity



Photo courtesy of the internet in a completely supportive environment......all fixed up lookin' georgeous

We can presume they all have the same number of genes. While I can't see any significant functional differences between the two cows Hilly and MK selected (presuming they would want an entire herd of this type of cow) we can all see a distinct difference in the Jersey cow being much more delicate, yet the percentage of their hetero/homo percentiles may or may not be similar in all three in order to sustain their types. We know its not just that simple but I am just using these as examples to make a point.

Tom D and LL selected this "cow" pictured below from an entire population not caring one whit what her combination consisted of or how efficient she is to fulfill their short term objective.....an impossible figment of their imagination.....and from experience I can say with absolute certainty that age never diminishes a man's appreciation of gracious maternal symmetry. Smile



Photo courtesy of Tom Dykstra - lookin' up near the Garden of Eden definitely more different than others I'm collecting in my harem who will take care of my LOOOONNNNNGG term objectives

I have no clue what the actual hetero/homo percentage is in any of my cattle nor of those in the above photos, and even if I knew, I am 99.9% certain that it is an impossible figment of our imagination to think that we could replicate or sustain that optimum combination of hetero/homo with selected mating systems which would move the progeny to either the left or right of that percentile chart by either inbreeding or outbreeding. So to all of you cattle breeders out there flushing cows, WHOOOAAAA, STOP AND THINK....why in this world would we EXPECT further INBREEDING an optimum type to reproduce that same optimum type when the progeny average would actually move to the left of the chart. And on the other hand, we need to be reminded that MARC research reaffirms that without selection we must sustain a given percent of heterosis lest we revert to the average of the parents.....whatever that was.

Percentages....Bob Howard's current herd descended from mainstream variation..... switching about a dozen years ago with constant selection for his preferred maternal functional type. I think we could safely theorize that his current herd may have reverted into the 50 to 60% hetero/homo category. As form follows functional selection, Bob says his culling rate for "good enough" work & wear cows has dropped from about 75% to 15% using "good enough" maternal bulls.....a huge economic factor for his business......adaptable uniformity without the need to compile contradicting measures....evident from his picture below.



Photo courtesy of Bob Howard .....lookin' every direction in his Idaho environment


If a picture is worth a thousand words, I want to again offer Bob Howard a special thank you for demonstrating the power of prepotency of purpose with affordable population genetics.and for taking the time and having the patient faith in applying the "tru-line" concept. I couldn't help recalling the time when Gavin told me his primary production consisted of bulls, beef & cull cows. Bob's has stated that his production primarily consists of seedless fruit and replacement cows.

So, when stabilizing a preferred type, the two individual cows that Hilly and Mike selected are certainly not considered by me to be among the 2% outliers, rather they are only the pinnacle, the centerpoint, the MEANS of the population from which all others descend. And for all practical purposes, if 68% of those surrounding that centerpoint are ALL genetically the "SAME AS OTHERS", a percentage which is relatively close from my observations, so then it just becomes an economic decision whether to cull 4% or up to 32% depending on how finicky we are. Consequently, practical simple farmer common sense and economic logic causes me to wonder why in the hell anyone in the beef business would continue to support that portion of the mainstream registered society who are persistantly chasing the 2% that are DEFINITELY more different than others....implying that 98% of our cattle today need continual changing for improvement/progress. Ooooohhhhh my gawd, that tradition must be considered one of the greatest marketing scams ever successfully conceived by mankind.

I once thought I needed to pray for Divine guidance for the multitudes, to forgive us for we know not what we do....finally realizing the traditional mainstream elite among us SURE AS HELL KNOW WHAT THEY DO ....ALL TOO WELL. Very Happy Indeed, while reality is often depressing, it also offers optimism for tomorrow. I hope the point I've tried to make here is fully understood.....that we can't change something without something changing . As I zig zag back and forth around a preferred centerpoint, I fully expect selection and natural law to self-govern whatever hetero/homo level the herd has. And I hope this post better explains why I run multiple sires together since essentially they are the same as the others... and why I can fairly price at least a minimum of 70% of my bulls and cows all the same.

It is not a matter of being right or wrong, it is very simply just my choice.

Stabilization of functional types is just the beginning phase of this OPTIONAL "tru-line" concept. While working towards the basic objective, the possibilities for improved refinement are limited only by natural law and our imagination. Thank you Dennis for your support of this movement with your graphic illustrations.



To end this post on a lighter note, hypothetically, Adam and Eve must've looked somewhat like this......



Photo courtesy of Guess Who
Eve in order to entice Adam to eat the apple and Adam in order to provide the genetic biodiversity needed by Eskimos......and Santa cheers

LL, near a vicinity where old DNA pedigreed heteros and homos are becoming extinct and buried in Bootheel Land where Kraziness battles Craziness.....evolving into transformed pituitary glands















Back to top Go down
Grassfarmer



Posts : 714
Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:46 pm

Larry Leonhardt wrote:

I have no clue what the actual hetero/homo percentage is in any of my cattle nor of those in the above photos, and even if I knew, I am 99.9% certain that it is an impossible figment of our imagination to think that we could replicate or sustain that optimum combination of hetero/homo with selected mating systems which would move the progeny to either the left or right of that percentile chart by either inbreeding or outbreeding. So to all of you cattle breeders out there flushing cows, WHOOOAAAA, STOP AND THINK....why in this world would we EXPECT further INBREEDING an optimum type to reproduce that same optimum type when the progeny average would actually move to the left of the chart. And on the other hand, we need to be reminded that MARC research reaffirms that without selection we must sustain a given percent of heterosis lest we revert to the average of the parents.....whatever that was.

Larry, this part of your latest post has been making my head hurt for most of the day. Maybe if I sleep on it it'll help me to understand it better and relate it to what some of us are doing. What is the relevance of the part I highlighted in red - I just don't know what that means.
Thanks again, Iain
Back to top Go down
http://www.luingcattle.com
Larry Leonhardt



Posts : 131
Join date : 2011-08-10

PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:23 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
Larry Leonhardt wrote:

I have no clue what the actual hetero/homo percentage is in any of my cattle nor of those in the above photos, and even if I knew, I am 99.9% certain that it is an impossible figment of our imagination to think that we could replicate or sustain that optimum combination of hetero/homo with selected mating systems which would move the progeny to either the left or right of that percentile chart by either inbreeding or outbreeding. So to all of you cattle breeders out there flushing cows, WHOOOAAAA, STOP AND THINK....why in this world would we EXPECT further INBREEDING an optimum type to reproduce that same optimum type when the progeny average would actually move to the left of the chart. And on the other hand, we need to be reminded that MARC research reaffirms that without selection we must sustain a given percent of heterosis lest we revert to the average of the parents.....whatever that was.

Larry, this part of your latest post has been making my head hurt for most of the day. Maybe if I sleep on it it'll help me to understand it better and relate it to what some of us are doing. What is the relevance of the part I highlighted in red - I just don't know what that means.
Thanks again, Iain

Iain, while writing my posts, they make my head hurt during that time which often takes several days to coordinate my thoughts for coherency. Smile We all practice some kind of selection. We describe heterosis as a phenomenon. I've presumed the "restoration" of inbreds is due to this same phenomenon. The MARC research I was referring to is the phenotypic effect from the non-additive effects of heterosis.

We've observed how the phenotype of inbreds generally breed "up" from where they were when outcrossed and outcrosses generally breed "down" from where they were when inbred. With every animal being an isolated "population of germ plasm" and breeds being represented to be an isolated "population of germ plasm", crossbreeding then would be a continual expansion of a "population of germ plasm". The CSU hetero/homo chart theoretically suggests what the range or trend of percentages each population should consist of depending on the mating systems.

If I understand correctly what you've told us about the foundation of the Luing breed, the founders were not satisfied with the SELECTION direction of the existing breeds and sought different characters from different sources to establish their ideal. Surely any initial affects of heterosis from this expanded population of germ plasm would be reduced over time by their SELECTION for their preferred functional characteristics.....increasing the frequency of those preferred characters and reducing or culling those unwanted characters from the distributions within their new isolated population of expanded germ plasm. Selection for only those preferred characters could be expected to reduce the variation in the distributions...I call it a refining process. Obviously inbreeding offers a quicker way to reduce variation but it is also a double edged sword and that is why I said somewhere in between our selection determines a functional preferred optimum.

Of course you already know all this, but the industry's frustrations begin cause we all want only the "best" of everything, the ones that definitely express more than others Smile Iain, I assume you have a "purebred ideal" in mind, otherwise you would be "crossbreeding". From the distributions in your isolated herd, which one would you be satisfied with having a whole herd of? From your breeding records, determine where you would place that ideal on the "CSU chart". Is that ideal the average or means of your population......the nucleus from which others in the distribution flow on both sides of that means? If not, where in the distribution is the ideal type you would like to "stabilize"?

Wherever that ideal is, it seems to me you have to maintain that same amount of variation to sustain the phenotype. About the two cows Craig and Mike selected, to renew that functional phenotype, it's been my experience they would need to maintain whatever amount of heterozygosity they carry in their genotype in order to sustain their individuality? What confounds me is how a pituitary gland produces the chemicals for the ranges of quantitative values like milk or growth ranging from dwarfs to giants.....so I've resolved myself just to accept that form follows functional selection, self-governing any hetero/homo mix and just let it be for peace of mind.

I'm recommending we both just take a coupla tylenol to relieve our headaches not expecting them to cure the cause, just remember Kendra's bell curve only provided a formula for "happiness" Very Happy Thanks for your inquiry Iain, I always enjoy your posts on KC broadening our views. Its cold and snowing here today about an inch an hour, at least the nutrients in our dirt in these shorter growing climates will last longer than in Kentucky....and with the southerners need to Import more fertilizer from Canada, it's good for your economy.....there is always a consolation for everything.

LL

Back to top Go down
MVCatt



Posts : 114
Join date : 2010-09-24
Age : 43
Location : SW Penn

PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:42 pm

MKeeney wrote:
I've discovered that perpetual intensive inbreeding expecting perfection some day is not only very expensive, it is an impossible dream which ultimately will be a path leading to extinction. And it is certainly against the rule of natural law's efforts to sustain adaptable biodiversity via its mutations and distributions.

I have discovered this as well; but thank goodness, it hasn`t cost too much...but I wasn`t expecting perfection, just hoping for continuity...when deciding to close breed, what`s everyone`s plan to avoid close breeding "costing too much"? and Tomd, or MVCatt, don`t you dare say "just keep on working with MK" Shocked Very Happy Very Happy


Can't think of a better word than continuity. No plans on closing this herd...just not possible with my scale. I do plan on doing some close breeding within the small gene pool we've thrown together here. I'll then use those inbreds on my commercial herd which is in genetic disarray. As far as my gene pool goes, I plan on breeding type to type. Some from here, some from others with similar genetics and values as mine...Kentucky and Michigan aren't that far away...where I hope to pay at least the sale minimum. Laughing
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4007
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:58 am

composite breeding that relies on "retained heterosis" as a primary asset must avoid selection in the composite progeny to avoid favoring one of the component breeds more than another; thus upsetting the level of heterosis... selection can only be done in the parent breeds that comprise the composite...
if selection is done in the progeny, then the composite starts to become a breed, and must then rely on genetic merit as the primary asset rather than heterosis...
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4007
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:05 am

what tru-line doesn`t mean...

http://beefmagazine.com/blog/who-has-best-beef-cow-here-s-one-candidate#comment-54271

I answered this with something like "the only best cow that matters economically is the one that can be reproduced with regularity"...I doubt they publish my comments, since they included in the signature www.keeneyscorner.com ...don`t imagine the Beef Mag crowd wants any competition... Smile
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
Grassfarmer



Posts : 714
Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:40 pm

Thanks for your comprehensive reply Larry it's certainly given me cause to WHOOOAAAA, STOP AND THINK.... I understand now the selection part I asked for clarification but the rest of your reply combined with your original post has really got me wondering what the heck I'm doing. I figured out before I'd ever heard of you guys and your "line breeding/inbreeding" web forums what my ideal type was .....

......all I needed to do was find a way to reproduce her with some consistency.
She reared an acceptable calf a year trouble free until 23 year old, what more could a person ask for? So began my quest for knowledge on line-breeding or a system that could reproduce this kind of "super" cow with some predictable consistency. Until I read the comments yesterday and started to really think about it in my situation I thought I had a plan. I'm approaching this from the opposite end of the tunnel to most of you who start with a big population and narrow it down to your refined "ideal type" - I'm starting with my "ideal type" and trying to produce a population from that one animal that would hopefully be my ideal type or at least allow me to start selecting amongst them to build a herd of that ideal type. Problem is she was a total outcross combining a not particularly close bred Scottish Luing with a closer bred cow of the Snowlander strain of cattle - resulting in an F1 cross by most peoples definition. She may well have been an outlier to her population as she was marginally the longest lived, I have no idea where she sat amongst her peers as there wasn't a big population of similarly bred cattle and it was before my time.
So I started well to the right of the CSU chart and my best guess and only real option to reproduce her was to breed her to the closest relative she had - a fully 3/4 brother which has given me what I thought were the "foundation stock" of my future program. So I've unconsciously moved my matings quite a bit towards the left side of the chart and have been "expecting to reproduce the same optimum type". Combine this with the observation that "outcrosses generally breed "down" from where they were when inbred" and I guess my plan isn't looking so clever. Although technically I'm not inbreeding going by the Lents definition - my matings mostly produce offspring carrying 50% of the original cow's blood. My severely limited gene pool always was and always will be my biggest constraint. It's doubtful if I've got the gene pool variation now to move my matings back to the right side of the chart in an aim to maintain an optimum type even if I wanted to. Saying all that I'm happy with what I'm seeing on the ground - the cattle are certainly becoming more of a type phenotypically and quicker than I'd expected. They are good enough functioning commercial cows for my conditions. So where do I go from here?

GF, head now pounding not from thinking about this but from beating it against the wall Sad










Back to top Go down
http://www.luingcattle.com
Larry Leonhardt



Posts : 131
Join date : 2011-08-10

PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:41 pm

MKeeney wrote:
composite breeding that relies on "retained heterosis" as a primary asset must avoid selection in the composite progeny to avoid favoring one of the component breeds more than another; thus upsetting the level of heterosis... selection can only be done in the parent breeds that comprise the composite...
if selection is done in the progeny, then the composite starts to become a breed, and must then rely on genetic merit as the primary asset rather than heterosis...

Thanks a million Mike for helping explain my recent posts, you can say more in a few words than I can with thousands....like when you said "the only best cow that matters economically is the one that can be reproduced with regularity". Therefore, now that Kendra is a new addition to my harem, her primary assignment is to be my ghost writer. And since Linda is now voluntarily unemployed, her part-time duty is to manage our imaginary TruLine Store while you're out golfin'. Of course, Erica's full time job remains the same tryin' ta keep you know who outta trouble.

LL (lucky larry)
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4007
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:39 am

LL,
This is a leading question on the way to a treatsie "the problem with close breeding" authored by me Smile , discussed by whoever Twisted Evil
the question...
what phenotypic stages of development are most affected by closer breeding?

I have read somewhere, that the effects are greatest pre-yearling...your experience?
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
Kent Powell



Posts : 500
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:27 am

"composite breeding that relies on "retained heterosis" as a primary asset must avoid selection in the composite progeny to avoid favoring one of the component breeds more than another; thus upsetting the level of heterosis... selection can only be done in the parent breeds that comprise the composite...
if selection is done in the progeny, then the composite starts to become a breed, and must then rely on genetic merit as the primary asset rather than heterosis..."

So, does this mean we cannot select visually, or by any other means, the most heterozygous or that selection will merely favor one breed over another? I thought most composite breeders were trying to produce their own breed. I think the current EPD system used in Breeds has proven to favor the most heterozygous as it is used and the pedigree diversity seems to bear it out. Isn't this selection making them less and less like a breed, and more like a composite in regards to their ability to reproduce themselves with regularity? How great would they be if the self imposed breed barriers were removed and the best were bred to the best regardless of breed or pedigree were used?
Back to top Go down
http://powellangus.com
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4007
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:02 pm

So, does this mean we cannot select visually, or by any other means, the most heterozygous or that selection will merely favor one breed over another?
no selection can be practiced in the composite and retain max heterosis....hmmm...but they would have practiced selection in the two way cross to make the 4 way...
I thought most composite breeders were trying to produce their own breed. I think the current EPD system used in Breeds has proven to favor the most heterozygous as it is used and the pedigree diversity seems to bear it out. Isn't this selection making them less and less like a breed, and more like a composite in regards to their ability to reproduce themselves with regularity?

surely...
How great would they be if the self imposed breed barriers were removed and the best were bred to the best regardless of breed or pedigree were used?

absolutely; given the current breeding/selection for superiority in all traits; the only thing that makes sense of the current fashion of additive number breeding...
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
Larry Leonhardt



Posts : 131
Join date : 2011-08-10

PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:27 pm

Quote :
.......................Saying all that I'm happy with what I'm seeing on the ground - the cattle are certainly becoming more of a type phenotypically and quicker than I'd expected. They are good enough functioning commercial cows for my conditions. So where do I go from here?

GF, head now pounding not from thinking about this but from beating it against the wall


Iain, your signoff triggered a giant overflow of endorphins in me , a high I don't experience often enough. Smile You cannot imagine how bloodied my head was after the first 15 years of breeding cattle, especially after paying for a part of a couple of $75,000 "disappointing miracle bulls", and even moreso after having to return the genuine $60,000 I received for a bull I re-named "Shoshone Sterile Darrell"......pedigree nuts won't find him listed as such in AAA's data bank. So, since you're happy, I would guess you are already getting very close to where you want to go.....unless you want to go somewhere else and start all over again. Twisted Evil Smile

Wouldn't it be neat if the parents of your "ideal cow" would have been unusually prepotent strains so you could go back and cross them to reproduce a herd of these "restored" cows with unusual consistency..... at an affordable price to produce the grassfed beef your customers prefer....imagine how you wouldn't need to worry about their ability to reproduce replacement heifers for at least another 20 years. Ah, but that would be a wishful figment of our imagination since no doubt then we would want something even better. Smile Yet, those are the basic fundamentals behind this figment of my imagination called TruLine.

Quote :
MKeeney wrote:.

LL,
This is a leading question on the way to a treatsie "the problem with close breeding" authored by me , discussed by whoever
the question...
what phenotypic stages of development are most affected by closer breeding?

I have read somewhere, that the effects are greatest pre-yearling...your experience?


Now Mike, there have been nearly 500 views on this topic since last Sunday so we can't paint ourselves into a Keeney Corner. Whatever you read somewhere was likely based on some randomized population out in this randomized world which may have shown a meaningless trend from several causes. Twisted Evil Remember that very long term Guineau Pig study you sent me years ago....how the phenotypic effects of intensified inbreeding were dependant on each family's PORTION of whatever isolated germ plasm they inherited from the controls.....and at the end when those isolated families were restored together again , the 7 traits being measured after 15 years were only slightly improved in the remixed families over the controls simply because a few of the isolated families became extinct along the way.

So I'm sorry, but I wouldn't even venture into that arena trying to decipher which phenotypic stages of development are most affected specifically the greatest by closer breeding. Your "treatsie" sounds more like a research project for you and DF . Smile Lacking specific "before and after" comparisons in my own cattle, the only thing I can say for certain is that embryonc deaths from whatever cause happen at the earliest stages of development.

LL isolating myself from MK's treatsies cheers cheers

P.S.
Just wondering if this was one of those genetic rustlers DV's comrades caught lurking on the Butte, I am absolutely certain that is DV's truck and that the rustler is Bootheel Smile
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:11 pm

Larry, I have been tied to an overpass with set of jumper cables, but never to a cab by some mooses. Either way it is chilling knowing I have a twin out there in harms way and Confirming my suspicions that I was adopted and normal folks living amongst the mooses are desperately searching for me.


I also always suspected Mooses of being Coors light fans, and further confirms my dislike of the leggy creatures. It also confirms they are less than applicable for Truline purposes.


Bootheel, Mooseless


Back to top Go down
Kent Powell



Posts : 500
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:02 pm

Is that a picture of how they make Moose Drool?
Back to top Go down
http://powellangus.com
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: what true line means to you?   

Back to top Go down
 
what true line means to you?
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 5 of 38Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 21 ... 38  Next
 Similar topics
-
» what true line means to you?
» When you use a true line for outcrossing
» Spiritual Enlightenment & the Hand
» Can the length of the life line predict 'longevity'?
» What Does Broken Life Line Indicate?

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Keeney`s Corner :: Tru-Line :: Tru-Line-
Jump to: