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 Looking for reproductive efficiency answers / How much is a bull worth? (article)

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LCP



Posts : 82
Join date : 2012-04-16
Location : north central SD

PostSubject: Looking for reproductive efficiency answers / How much is a bull worth? (article)   Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:31 pm

http://beefmagazine.com/blog/looking-reproductive-efficiency-answers

From the article...
"I’ve heard dozens of seedstock producers discuss their concerns in these areas. But, they also are being dictated to by the marketplace, which puts a premium on the very trait that runs contrary to one of the most economically relevant traits of all –reproductive rate. With record prices, the incentive to produce as many pounds as possible has never been greater."

Is it really the marketplace (commercial bull purchaser) that is defining it? Or is "pounds" what every glossy ad brags about? I know of plenty of fellas who want pounds...after they get feet, udders, and bred cows.

The last quote about not knowing if the progress is in the right direction is my favorite part of the article. I can identify with that guy...except now I have a lot more confidence that it is in the right direction.

And then a few days later, this article from Mr Marshall...

http://beefmagazine.com/blog/how-much-good-bull-worth

Seems like he's talking out of both sides of his mouth. As long as this mindset prevails, there is no incentive for the seedstock provider to select for reproductive ability...or anything else for that matter, except pounds.


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larkota



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Age : 56
Location : Kimball South Dakota

PostSubject: Re: Looking for reproductive efficiency answers / How much is a bull worth? (article)   Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:37 am

Luke one of the replies to how much a good bull is worth.

A timely article, with all the bull sales coming up....especially one less than 3 weeks away in Burlington, CO....with so many well above average bulls! LOL



most registurd breeders remind me of a hot air balloon...... goes which ever way the wind blows.
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for reproductive efficiency answers / How much is a bull worth? (article)   Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:08 am

Here is my favorite.


I recently watched a very good producer pay over $6,000 each on 10 bulls. His comment to me was: “I know I’m going to make genetic progress, but it will take 6-10 years to know if it was in the right direction.”


And I am the one that lives in the land of crap tables and card rooms??????????????????????????????? cheers cheers
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for reproductive efficiency answers / How much is a bull worth? (article)   Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:39 am

A dead give away to a BS salesman is when he tells you genetics is the most important aspect of farm or ranch profitability...Troy has fit that moniker for years...
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Danny Miller



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Join date : 2010-11-11
Age : 59
Location : KY

PostSubject: Re: Looking for reproductive efficiency answers / How much is a bull worth? (article)   Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:56 am

W.T wrote:
Here is my favorite.


I recently watched a very good producer pay over $6,000 each on 10 bulls. His comment to me was: “I know I’m going to make genetic progress, but it will take 6-10 years to know if it was in the right direction.”

And I am the one that lives in the land of crap tables and card rooms??????????????????????????????? cheers cheers
Is he still going to call it genetic progress if it go's in the wrong direction??
I know of at least three Hereford bull sales this spring that AVERAGED $10,000. Definitly not all went into registered herds.
These sales were out west....Cattle business must be better out there......Or just allot of ignorance.....Wish some of that ignorance
would come my way!!!!! Funny how most of the sale toppers are never heard from again.
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Bob H



Posts : 425
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Location : SW Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Looking for reproductive efficiency answers / How much is a bull worth? (article)   Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:49 pm

I believe that a yearling bull that has good genetic material in him should be worth more than a commercial steer. But in reality it should not be allot. He will cost more to keep in shape and the bother of being a bull and years of using good line bred bulls that were priced reasonable would make me beleive that they would bring between 1500 and 2000 to the commercial breeder at 1 year of age and between 2200 and 2700 at 2 with the cost of keeping them at 2 dollars a head a day. This seems to me to be sustainable to both the seedstock man and the commercial man. If they don't have good genetic material in them they should be cut and bring around 1300 as yearling steers. Bob H
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for reproductive efficiency answers / How much is a bull worth? (article)   Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:24 am

Bob H wrote:
I believe that a yearling bull that has good genetic material in him should be worth more than a commercial steer. But in reality it should not be allot. He will cost more to keep in shape and the bother of being a bull and years of using good line bred bulls that were priced reasonable would make me beleive that they would bring between 1500 and 2000 to the commercial breeder at 1 year of age and between 2200 and 2700 at 2 with the cost of keeping them at 2 dollars a head a day. This seems to me to be sustainable to both the seedstock man and the commercial man. If they don't have good genetic material in them they should be cut and bring around 1300 as yearling steers. Bob H

Well thought out bob. i find it hard to argue your math.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for reproductive efficiency answers / How much is a bull worth? (article)   Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:22 pm

Smile
Bob H wrote:
I believe that a yearling bull that has good genetic material in him should be worth more than a commercial steer. But in reality it should not be allot. He will cost more to keep in shape and the bother of being a bull and years of using good line bred bulls that were priced reasonable would make me beleive that they would bring between 1500 and 2000 to the commercial breeder at 1 year of age and between 2200 and 2700 at 2 with the cost of keeping them at 2 dollars a head a day. This seems to me to be sustainable to both the seedstock man and the commercial man. If they don't have good genetic material in them they should be cut and bring around 1300 as yearling steers. Bob H

Bob,
any carcass data from last year`s calf crop to share yet? Can`t be very good; you not buying expensive bulls etc...
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LCP



Posts : 82
Join date : 2012-04-16
Location : north central SD

PostSubject: Re: Looking for reproductive efficiency answers / How much is a bull worth? (article)   Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:08 pm

MKeeney wrote:

Bob,
any carcass data from last year`s calf crop to share yet?

Maybe a little something about the feedlot performance also if its not too much to ask...these are all questions I will have to answer if I'm to make any drastic changes in seedstock selection around here Smile Thank goodness I have some time to build a case before the bull sales start again.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for reproductive efficiency answers / How much is a bull worth? (article)   Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:15 am

here`s the kind of double talk, hyprocrisy BS that the honest and forthright breeder must contend with...they put this on their website as if it is their breeding practice

Can You Breed Maternal and Terminal at the Same Time?

By Dr. Wayne Wagner, WVU Extension Livestock Specialist.

I have been looking at our cow herd inventory and I have discovered that a high percentage of our A.I. sired females are not making cows that will stay in the herd. Why? Because I have bred for the wrong things! I am embarrassed to admit it. Over the past several years, I have concentrated on using A.I. extensively and have tried to keep daughters of these bulls. My problem is that by the time they should be six years old; too many of them are gone.

Sometimes we need a wake-up call and I have had mine. What am I breeding for and what are my objectives? Clearly, I want to produce cattle that work for the commercial cattle industry. I am breeding Angus cattle and they are considered a maternal breed. So what makes cattle maternal or terminal? Obviously, if a high percentage of the females don't last very long, they are terminal and not maternal. So, do we have terminal and maternal Angus? Yes, and the same can be said of Herefords too!

The American Angus Association has a terminal sire index called $B. If you select for $B, you will be selecting against maternal. It has been quite a few years ago that I bought an Angus bull called Stone Gate Potter. He was a maternal bull and probably the best bull I ever owned. Nearly every daughter he produced worked as a cow and a high percentage made it to fifteen years of age. These are my observation of that bull:
1.His daughters were better than his bull calves. The bull caves didn't blow you away but the females look great after they calved.
2.He had decent growth (for 1980), but wasn't extreme.
3.He was complete-without holes (maternal calving ease, structurally correct, fleshing ability, and moderate frame).

I want to build a cow herd and I want females that will last. To do that, I need to quit trying to compete with everyone else and breed cattle to make females. That's the priority! What do I mean by that? If you are a commercial cattleman, you want to sell the most pounds at weaning that you can sell and if you test bulls at a test station, you want the fastest gaining, highest indexing bull to sell. However, if you are a commercial or seedstock producer with these objectives, you are not breeding for females that will both work and last. A student of mine put it this way: if you want steers, use a terminal bull but if you want cows, use a maternal bull. There are limits to how much you can expect and to achieve extreme levels of growth and/or milk production is very stressful and any cow can only handle that much stress for a limited amount of time. If you were to characterize an old cow in a herd, she would be anywhere from slightly below to slightly above average in production at weaning, she is fertile, and she hasn't had any calving difficulty. Will you get these average cows selecting extreme "spread" bulls? Not likely!

So where do I go from here? First, I am looking for seedstock herds that have some 15-yearold cows as opposed to those that don't have a cow over 10. Secondly, I look for a bull (or sons of a bull) whose daughters do seem to last. I want to see a bull's dam. Third, I am looking for a seedstock breeder whose goal is not to produce the heaviest, fattest calf possible. If someone is breeding to produce the heaviest steer and/or the biggest bulls possible, then they are not breeding maternal cattle. There is a place for those cattle, but not in my herd because the females will not last. I have made more than my share of mistakes of late, but change has to be start sometime. I have used some of the most used bulls in the Angus breed of late, and on average they haven't made good females-that is what my inventory tells me.

what was Potter`s epds? bw 1.4, yw 45, milk 14...bottom 25% for $B
and what are the 10 most recent herd bull acquistions?
in the top 15% for $B...

the fallacies of what cattle are and what people say and do are the reasons any kind of breeding co-operative building parts to make a whole would need clear separation from existing organization...build something unique in a lifetime, someone would steal it in one quick sentence...


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Kent Powell



Posts : 659
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Looking for reproductive efficiency answers / How much is a bull worth? (article)   Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:52 am

It is like politics. We are in the middle of a primary campaign where the opponent is of the same party, votes with the other party over 60% of the time, wants higher taxes, more regulations, thinks more and more is the answer, and at least around election time he considers himself a conservative.

Here is the rub. As a conservative, I believe his intentions are good and he is a good man. I don't know why I believe this, but I guess I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. I believe this is how most voters think, so how do you point out the differences without turning them off? This is especially true when the opposition adopt and change the meaning of the language to fit them no matter how antagonistic- "Me Too"

I don't know why I keep giving the benefit of the doubt. I am finding more and more that Old guard Republicans don't like folks like me. The Tea partiers, libertarians, small government constitutionalists, there is no room for these extremists. The trouble makers. We don't understand how things work, Maintaining the Status quo perpetually disguised as improvement.

So. What to do in regard to cattle? Do we Ron Paul them with steadfast conviction and remain satisfied on the fringes with the toaster leavins of the old mainstream friends who roll their eyes when our names are mentioned? Do we Paul Ryan them and lay the solutions out there clear and simple so the establishment can rip them to shreds. Let's face it, if they didn't get to be the establishment on great ideas and positive results, they are probably pretty good at marketing.

Is there anything that can happen in a big way until there is a NEED for it? Is function enough? Tough times should pull necessity to the forefront over frivolity, But, The show dinks had a heck of a run following some pretty hard times. Would they have ever fallen out of favor without Dwarfism? If they had the mind easing DNA technology we have today, would we need guard dogs for our little c - section requiring HIGH QUALITY cows? Is it really about the cattle at all. Is it all about the people? The behavior of a social creature who is malleable yet habitual. Is it about the NCBA, AAA,KLA,BIF, even USDA...? To many it is. Why are they tied together?

I have a few potential answers, but I don't care to give that to the Mee Tooers just yet.

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PostSubject: Re: Looking for reproductive efficiency answers / How much is a bull worth? (article)   Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:00 am

Just like always kent now I got to STOP AND THINK...... scratch scratch
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larkota



Posts : 395
Join date : 2010-09-23
Age : 56
Location : Kimball South Dakota

PostSubject: Re: Looking for reproductive efficiency answers / How much is a bull worth? (article)   Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:32 am

MKeeney wrote:
here`s the kind of double talk, hyprocrisy BS that the honest and forthright breeder must contend with...they put this on their website as if it is their breeding practice

Can You Breed Maternal and Terminal at the Same Time?

By Dr. Wayne Wagner, WVU Extension Livestock Specialist.

I have been looking at our cow herd inventory and I have discovered that a high percentage of our A.I. sired females are not making cows that will stay in the herd. Why? Because I have bred for the wrong things! I am embarrassed to admit it. Over the past several years, I have concentrated on using A.I. extensively and have tried to keep daughters of these bulls. My problem is that by the time they should be six years old; too many of them are gone.

Sometimes we need a wake-up call and I have had mine. What am I breeding for and what are my objectives? Clearly, I want to produce cattle that work for the commercial cattle industry. I am breeding Angus cattle and they are considered a maternal breed. So what makes cattle maternal or terminal? Obviously, if a high percentage of the females don't last very long, they are terminal and not maternal. So, do we have terminal and maternal Angus? Yes, and the same can be said of Herefords too!

The American Angus Association has a terminal sire index called $B. If you select for $B, you will be selecting against maternal. It has been quite a few years ago that I bought an Angus bull called Stone Gate Potter. He was a maternal bull and probably the best bull I ever owned. Nearly every daughter he produced worked as a cow and a high percentage made it to fifteen years of age. These are my observation of that bull:
1.His daughters were better than his bull calves. The bull caves didn't blow you away but the females look great after they calved.
2.He had decent growth (for 1980), but wasn't extreme.
3.He was complete-without holes (maternal calving ease, structurally correct, fleshing ability, and moderate frame).

I want to build a cow herd and I want females that will last. To do that, I need to quit trying to compete with everyone else and breed cattle to make females. That's the priority! What do I mean by that? If you are a commercial cattleman, you want to sell the most pounds at weaning that you can sell and if you test bulls at a test station, you want the fastest gaining, highest indexing bull to sell. However, if you are a commercial or seedstock producer with these objectives, you are not breeding for females that will both work and last. A student of mine put it this way: if you want steers, use a terminal bull but if you want cows, use a maternal bull. There are limits to how much you can expect and to achieve extreme levels of growth and/or milk production is very stressful and any cow can only handle that much stress for a limited amount of time. If you were to characterize an old cow in a herd, she would be anywhere from slightly below to slightly above average in production at weaning, she is fertile, and she hasn't had any calving difficulty. Will you get these average cows selecting extreme "spread" bulls? Not likely!

So where do I go from here? First, I am looking for seedstock herds that have some 15-yearold cows as opposed to those that don't have a cow over 10. Secondly, I look for a bull (or sons of a bull) whose daughters do seem to last. I want to see a bull's dam. Third, I am looking for a seedstock breeder whose goal is not to produce the heaviest, fattest calf possible. If someone is breeding to produce the heaviest steer and/or the biggest bulls possible, then they are not breeding maternal cattle. There is a place for those cattle, but not in my herd because the females will not last. I have made more than my share of mistakes of late, but change has to be start sometime. I have used some of the most used bulls in the Angus breed of late, and on average they haven't made good females-that is what my inventory tells me.

what was Potter`s epds? bw 1.4, yw 45, milk 14...bottom 25% for $B
and what are the 10 most recent herd bull acquistions?
in the top 15% for $B...

the fallacies of what cattle are and what people say and do are the reasons any kind of breeding co-operative building parts to make a whole would need clear separation from existing organization...build something unique in a lifetime, someone would steal it in one quick sentence...




never underestimate the power of human stupidity.
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Kent Powell



Posts : 659
Join date : 2010-09-24
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PostSubject: Re: Looking for reproductive efficiency answers / How much is a bull worth? (article)   Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:07 pm

There are more problems:

"2.He had decent growth (for 1980), but wasn't extreme"

He was born in 1984.

Of the 16 still used sires ( Which are mostly the highest growth bulls of their era) born between 1978 and 1985, he would tie for 10th in yearling growth. Isn't that extreme?

I thought it was interesting that the highest growth bull on this list is the Rare MATERNAL sire Traveler 124 GDAR, beating Scotch Cap, New Trend, 5522, Ambush, 5204, Traveler and Big Sky. The founders of the feast.

But, in perspective, if less means more maternally, aren't they all Maternal now?
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Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Looking for reproductive efficiency answers / How much is a bull worth? (article)   Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:17 pm

Now quit making things so dam difficult and fall inline. Laughing Laughing
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R V



Posts : 108
Join date : 2010-10-04

PostSubject: Re: Looking for reproductive efficiency answers / How much is a bull worth? (article)   Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:23 pm

I'm with W.T. Very Happy

Do these bulls represent OPTIMAL for most environments or was it crossing them on the cows of that era provided OPTIMAL or is it just nostalgia???

Ron, with a lot more questions than answers. Thanks Kent!

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Bob H



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Location : SW Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Looking for reproductive efficiency answers / How much is a bull worth? (article)   Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:53 pm

We have changed our marketing program a little since last fall. We sold this crop of calves to Meyers as fat cattle starting in October of this year. What I do know is that the lead end of our calves weighed 900 lbs on June first off of the desert without any supplement except salt and grass. The next 2/3 we shipped on July 19th weighing 898 off of irrigated meadows. We still have 20 hd of the small end which comes to about 5% of the total. We will know more later about gains in the feedlot but would expect them to be between 2.8 and 3.5 depending on the ration. What I do know is that we have 5.66 dollar corn to feed them and this should make the cost of gain between 1.00 and 1.10. today if you had to but that feed it would cost 8.15 or so making the cost of gain between 1.25 and 1.35 or higher. About how they grade I would expect them to be at least 90% choice as they have to be fed a minimum of 120 days. We sold them live with a 4% shrink. I have been loading customer cattle for about a week and will say this I don't see any thing that I would change to. We realy like our little inbred nubbins to produce beef the way that we do. Bob H
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MVCatt



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PostSubject: Re: Looking for reproductive efficiency answers / How much is a bull worth? (article)   Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:18 pm

Bob,
Are these straight bred or crossed (seedless fruit) calves? Or both?
Also, aren't you experimenting with some Wagu crossed with your Shoshone base to finish on grass? Anything to report or is that info locked away in your secret lab?
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Bob H



Posts : 425
Join date : 2011-02-17
Location : SW Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Looking for reproductive efficiency answers / How much is a bull worth? (article)   Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:45 pm

The yearlings we delivered would about 70 percent char X Shoshone with the balance being a high percentage straight Shoshone.

We have a crop of Akaushi calves on the ground now and will make yearlings out of them next summer. We had a bit of calving trouble out of the heifers but have done some homework and think that next year we might try them again. We will butcher some of them off of grass next fall and see what we might have.

As of now I don't know if they are going to grow with the straight Shoshone calves or not.

I am sure that they are not going to keep up with the char X calves in lbs.
The company we deal with say that they will make up the dollar difference.
In 12 months we will have allot more information on this project.
Bob H
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