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 A Tale of Two Calves

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: A Tale of Two Calves   Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:02 pm

I made an effort today to get a couple of pics of calves that have my interest and I believe are quite the contrast in type...
on the left is a Model A "maternal" herd sire prospect; linebred from a 900 lb imported Shoshone three year old sired by the late maturing bull from the cow Mark commented on as a "bad picture"...good cow; bad picture Smile
on the right is perhaps my most impressive at this early stage Model B {more growth and outcrossed }; sired by the 41/97 son, from a mature cow with 1400 lb kind of scope and weight; an excellent cow..if I was going to create Model B, by breeding B to B; I would keep this calf...


closeup of Model A


close up of Model B


I believe we have been "judging team trained" to like Model B best even for maternal use...
I am having my doubts...

Bootheel mentioned trivial purists...lack of confidence in one`s own cattle; often created by the hyperbole of the marketplace; often causes you to miss better cattle right under your nose...
I told Larry the other day I`m having a bit of an ego buildup...yesterday after looking down in that semen tank at those little fat-assed, straight legged, infertile phenotypes of promotion, I took a few pictures of Blythemaker 619...I thought of selling him once for $1300 to a commercial customer, but used him instead...sold him after his second season of heifer breeding for $1200; traded back for him a year later; $1200 credit...I look at him today; see his locomotion, and his few daughters in production, and he makes fools of the lot of the semen in my tank I`m giving away that cost $15; maybe $18/ straw...
but now I`m going to send him free to Mark; because I want to buy his daughters...and like Dennis, Mark has been a trusting friend and I want him to have a $15,000 bull I raised running with his cows



here`s to looking at you Blythey ; at least I finally hold you in my high esteem Smile


and his full sis...


and so to fail to act on my own words; must mean I fit the human nature mold of a lot of us who have succumbed at some point in time to motion, commotion, and promotion and think the other side of the fence must be greener; just because someone told us it was...pointed out so clearly below...

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CW



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PostSubject: Re: A Tale of Two Calves   Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:56 pm

Mike, do you have pictures of the two dams of these lads? Do the cows differ the same as the calves? If i was looking at the calves from a stocker point of view I would say the "A" is a plainer looking calf compared to the "B". From a breeders perspective, is the A better suited maternally because the genetics involved are later maturing and will create an animal more moderate in form and less likely to be "over" conditioned(like the skinny kid who becomes a long distance runner and the chunky kid that becomes a linebacker)Both would be athletes in their own right but would be at opposite ends of the spectrum. Am I understanding this right or way off base scratch How do the dams contibute to the current appearance of these calves (milk) and their age (birthdates)?
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PostSubject: Re: A Tale of Two Calves   Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:23 pm

craig wrote:
Mike, do you have pictures of the two dams of these lads? Do the cows differ the same as the calves? If i was looking at the calves from a stocker point of view I would say the "A" is a plainer looking calf compared to the "B". From a breeders perspective, is the A better suited maternally because the genetics involved are later maturing and will create an animal more moderate in form and less likely to be "over" conditioned(like the skinny kid who becomes a long distance runner and the chunky kid that becomes a linebacker)Both would be athletes in their own right but would be at opposite ends of the spectrum. Am I understanding this right or way off base scratch How do the dams contibute to the current appearance of these calves (milk) and their age (birthdates)?
Craig,
the biggest type difference is in the sires; but the Model A calf`s dam has many of the same characteristics as her calf; while environment is playing a role, the greatest difference by far is genetic type difference...maybe it`s long distance runner versus a sprinter... I don`t have many answers yet; just questions and more observations to be made over the next 10 years ...I do know almost certainly the model A calf will be masculine... someday
pictures of the dam`s are not comparable due to age differences, and adaptation from WY to KY...I see using that A calf as part of my ongoing learning process ...hopefully, we can see them both in 6 months at weaning..at yearling etc...we`re here for what we hope is the long haul Smile
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Charles



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PostSubject: Re: A Tale of Two Calves   Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:54 pm

Mike; Thank you for posting these calf pictures. An eye opener for me although maybe not for others. I see now the whole problem of breeding "maternal" as you started the breeding thread, the Model A calf is going to be hard to sell. Most including me will think he is just a dud or pud, maybe has a little dairy blood or something mixed in. I guess this is a true example of genetic antaginisms, you can't have it on both ends, early maturity is going to reduce later functionality and vice-versa. Going to be tough using this A calf as a young bull wondering if he is going to become desirable as opposed to just being a junk bull. I have cut a bunch of bull calves out of good cows that looked like A. Total familiaity with the cattle will help a breeder to gain confidence in selecting the late bloomers.

Ypur Blythemaker 619 bull is very impressive. From my viewpoint, he has the look I am coming to associate with mature maternal bulls. That is he looks like he is made up from 2 different bulls, a big one in front, a smaller one behind. A bit "buffalo" in my eye. Wide at the shoulder, narrow at the hip as old song goes.........My old Northern Improvement bull was that way, nobody wanted him til he was about 4 yrs old.

Rambling thoughts from a pragmatic cowman, maybe this stuff is so obivious that Ray Charles could see it......

Charles
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: A Tale of Two Calves   Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:11 pm

Why would early maturity be antagonistic to longevity?

How does late maturity benefit (don't know that is the right word) maternal traits?
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PostSubject: Re: A Tale of Two Calves   Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:59 pm

Mike,

From what I remember of the fat cattle reports you have shared about calves, sired by your bulls, would you say that your type of cattle do not have the generally presumed correlation between later maturity and heavier finish weights? That even though you are breeding for later maturing cattle it has not caused finish weights to raise above an accepted comfortable level?

Perhaps the correlation between early maturity and acceptable carcass weights isn't as universal as acadamia presumed a few decades ago? scratch
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: A Tale of Two Calves   Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:05 pm

dwight@steadfastbeef.com wrote:
Mike,

From what I remember of the fat cattle reports you have shared about calves, sired by your bulls, would you say that your type of cattle do not have the generally presumed correlation between later maturity and heavier finish weights? That even though you are breeding for later maturing cattle it has not caused finish weights to raise above an accepted comfortable level?

Perhaps the correlation between early maturity and acceptable carcass weights isn't as universal as acadamia presumed a few decades ago? scratch
Dwight,
there are too many different types here for various failed and purposeful reasons for me to make too many generalizations about correlations I have seen here or cattle I have here..but I will say, average in most all things works pretty good.. Smile
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: A Tale of Two Calves   Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:13 pm

RobertMac wrote:
Why would early maturity be antagonistic to longevity?

How does late maturity benefit (don't know that is the right word) maternal traits?
I think we are just exploring the possibilities...and even if so; there will always be exceptions..
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: A Tale of Two Calves   Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:21 pm

Charles wrote:
Mike; Thank you for posting these calf pictures. An eye opener for me although maybe not for others. I see now the whole problem of breeding "maternal" as you started the breeding thread, the Model A calf is going to be hard to sell. Most including me will think he is just a dud or pud, maybe has a little dairy blood or something mixed in. I guess this is a true example of genetic antaginisms, you can't have it on both ends, early maturity is going to reduce later functionality and vice-versa. Going to be tough using this A calf as a young bull wondering if he is going to become desirable as opposed to just being a junk bull. I have cut a bunch of bull calves out of good cows that looked like A. Total familiaity with the cattle will help a breeder to gain confidence in selecting the late bloomers.

Ypur Blythemaker 619 bull is very impressive. From my viewpoint, he has the look I am coming to associate with mature maternal bulls. That is he looks like he is made up from 2 different bulls, a big one in front, a smaller one behind. A bit "buffalo" in my eye. Wide at the shoulder, narrow at the hip as old song goes.........My old Northern Improvement bull was that way, nobody wanted him til he was about 4 yrs old.

Rambling thoughts from a pragmatic cowman, maybe this stuff is so obivious that Ray Charles could see it......

Charles
Charles,
we are seeing exhibit A far differently; he will not be difficult to sell as a steer calf; he has a very futuristic look to him in my opinion; certainly not fitting my definition of "pud"..he may not weight as much at weaning; but in due time he`ll be fine as a steer...and...I betcha he marbles better than B... Smile
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Charles



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PostSubject: Re: A Tale of Two Calves   Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:07 pm

Mike,
He will certainly make a steer sure enough, but I see a light muscled, slower growing, later maturing type that will get significantly discounted as a feeder calf. Maybe my vision is distorted???

Charles
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: A Tale of Two Calves   Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:25 pm

MKeeney wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
Why would early maturity be antagonistic to longevity?

How does late maturity benefit (don't know that is the right word) maternal traits?
I think we are just exploring the possibilities...and even if so; there will always be exceptions..
Some would consider late maturity an endocrine problem.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: A Tale of Two Calves   Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:14 am

Charles wrote:
Mike,
He will certainly make a steer sure enough, but I see a light muscled, slower growing, later maturing type that will get significantly discounted as a feeder calf. Maybe my vision is distorted???

Charles
for your sake Charles, we`ll say it the picture that`s distorted, but that calf type will top feeder markets
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: A Tale of Two Calves   Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:23 am

RobertMac wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
Why would early maturity be antagonistic to longevity?

How does late maturity benefit (don't know that is the right word) maternal traits?
I think we are just exploring the possibilities...and even if so; there will always be exceptions..
Some would consider late maturity an endocrine problem.
some that say that own no cows, and are full of BS trying to con a living out of the cattle breeding business...later, not neccessarily late, maturity is a characteristic of some types/breeds, not because of problems...later maturity has economic trade-offs/benefits just like everything else
do Brown Swiss cows have an endocrine problem? their reputation as home use milk cows was they were good til they were 15 years old...but never reached full flow until 5; no good in the mainstream of dairy production today..
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: A Tale of Two Calves   Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:28 am

I have a gripe. I have a hard time keeping up with everything on here. I have been wondering what bull of Hilly's has everyone been talking about but just figured I missed something someplace. Hell, I missed a whole book of a topic in a different category. Now, if we want the folks to find this info we need to sort it a bit better in topics. In my opinion this whole discussion needs to be put in Breeding Philosophies. Hell, I have been talked about and did not know it...but that is okay this time. I am glad I am going to see the professor Sunday.
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PostSubject: A Tale of Two Calves   Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:17 pm

looking forward to it Mark; we are writing a diary of thought and experiences here by committee; and it`s going to be a best seller someday from sharing our differing opinions in a positive way with the same objective...producing the most with the least possible cost while maintaining the pasturage...
If I can, I`m going to pull these two calves and comments out into a seperate thread {A Tale of Two Calves } and as I and we follow their development over their livlihoods; be it short as meat or long as breeding stock. I guess I`ll start with an Igenity test for them both; more pictures, dams, etc to follow
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df



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PostSubject: Re: A Tale of Two Calves   Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:20 pm

RobertMac wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
Why would early maturity be antagonistic to longevity?

How does late maturity benefit (don't know that is the right word) maternal traits?
I think we are just exploring the possibilities...and even if so; there will always be exceptions..
Some would consider late maturity an endocrine problem.

What kind of endocrine problem?

On another note, is marbling a genetic abnormality? Wildlife do not marble and most breeds don't marble as much as Angus, why do Angus?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: A Tale of Two Calves   Fri Nov 12, 2010 9:05 pm

df wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
Why would early maturity be antagonistic to longevity?

How does late maturity benefit (don't know that is the right word) maternal traits?
I think we are just exploring the possibilities...and even if so; there will always be exceptions..
Some would consider late maturity an endocrine problem.

What kind of endocrine problem?

On another note, is marbling a genetic abnormality? Wildlife do not marble and most breeds don't marble as much as Angus, why do Angus?
holsteins and jerseys marble though selected for milk...old time reputation Angus marbled, but with an inch of fat...though herefords as fat; didn`t...no answer comes to me Dennis...surprised? Smile
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Angus 62



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PostSubject: Re: A Tale of Two Calves   Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:16 am

If later maturing means taking additional time to reach mature size then there would seem to be an advantage in breeding females. One of the biggest problems you come across in bigger-faster land are young females trying to be in the top 10% for growth and milk production. Too much too fast.
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PostSubject: Re: A Tale of Two Calves   Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:43 am

yelp, I agree...I`m going to work pretty hard on this thread over a long time span ...because I see too many misconceptions as to what are the correlated characteristics of differing types ...I don`t mind gathering comprehendsive data on two head Smile ...what does data on two head prove? not much about cattle, but maybe a lot about human conclusions
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OAK LANE FARM



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PostSubject: Re: A Tale of Two Calves   Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:25 am

If this request is compatible with your purposes I think it would be interesting to see a picture of heifer calves from both lines.
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tc



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PostSubject: Re: A Tale of Two Calves   Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:44 pm

The Heifers are Good to.
Just an opinion from a couple of guys from Tn.
thanks for the tour Mike.
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PostSubject: Re: A Tale of Two Calves   Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:50 pm

tc wrote:
The Heifers are Good to.
Just an opinion from a couple of guys from Tn.
thanks for the tour Mike.
thanks Travis...
Scott, point well taken on the heifer calf mates, though my immediate concern is the characterizing of the model A bull calf as a poor selling calf...maybe so; since they are distinctly different types of thickness, fat, and maturity, it should be interesting to follow the two as in a test station, only in the field, in the real world...noticed the A calf`s half brothers are just like him; not sure if there is a heifer mate or not...more pictures soon of the A calves; B`s already done...
not proof of much, just demonstration, letting the chips fall where they may for the discussion... and perhaps examples of experiences with different types from other herds ...names best left out of the process...
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: A Tale of Two Calves   Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:12 am

df wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
RobertMac wrote:
Why would early maturity be antagonistic to longevity?

How does late maturity benefit (don't know that is the right word) maternal traits?
I think we are just exploring the possibilities...and even if so; there will always be exceptions..
Some would consider late maturity an endocrine problem.

What kind of endocrine problem?

For those that actually own cattle and require their heifers to breed within a small fixed breeding season and calve at two and every year there after...late maturity and even later maturity would be a problem. I would think that there are a lot of commercial cattlemen that follow that scenario. The endocrine system has great influence on the expression of phenotype from the genotype and reproduction is a good indicator of how well the endocrine system matches the environment.
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PostSubject: Re: A Tale of Two Calves   Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:03 pm

I don't think that we are talking late puberty, just a slower maturing to final size.
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: A Tale of Two Calves   Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:59 am

EddieM wrote:
I don't think that we are talking late puberty, just a slower maturing to final size.
That is probably my problem...not using the same definitions. As for growing to final size, my bulls don't reach final size until 3 or 4...cows probably about the same...I don't push them with high quality feed sources. As for reaching puberty to breed, I had three heifers 2 years ago to breed at 9 months...at least one of their bull mates had reached puberty.
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