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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:06 am

Hilly wrote:
Vaccinated the summer calves the last couple days and took weights.

At 165 days +/- the weights on the blacks and whites

Whites,
Bulls ranged from 632lbs to 704lbs/averaging 655lbs
Heifers from 548lbs-610lbs/averaging 581lbs

Blacks
Bulls ranged from 462lbs to 544lbs/averaging 509lbs
Heifers from 422lbs to 480lbs/averaging 454lbs

The embryos were put in random cows and this group of 20 ran together from birth, so pasture and management were the same. The white bulls 146lbs heavier and the heifers 127lbs heavier then the blacks.

df, as practice for your bigger project, analyze this full sib data ...are the ranges of weights consistent with "uniformity? are the types consisntent with uniformity? why an average of 135 lbs difference in weaning weight between the breeds ?
I think I made another mistake; three now at KC Smile SCIENTISTS will accept your research project as meaningful a helluva lot more readily than the posters here...
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:09 pm

Hilly wrote:
Vaccinated the summer calves the last couple days and took weights.

At 165 days +/- the weights on the blacks and whites

Whites,
Bulls ranged from 632lbs to 704lbs/averaging 655lbs
Heifers from 548lbs-610lbs/averaging 581lbs

Blacks
Bulls ranged from 462lbs to 544lbs/averaging 509lbs
Heifers from 422lbs to 480lbs/averaging 454lbs

The embryos were put in random cows and this group of 20 ran together from birth, so pasture and management were the same. The white bulls 146lbs heavier and the heifers 127lbs heavier then the blacks.


This is monumental. This is a perfectly simple experiment that shows us everything we need to know. This data shows what "growth" is, and what it is not. Gavin Falloon has often mentioned the Australian study at Trangie Research Station (or Triangle as Pops calls it) that showed that only 20% of the variation in pre-weaning gain was due to milk. I never believed that number, because it didn't fit with what I thought I knew, but this experiment of Craig's would certainly support it.
Everyone is obsessed with measuring growth in cattle, but what is growth? If growth is an increase in mass over a unit of time, then increasing the rate of growth must carry at least one of the two following consequences: Increased Mature Size or Reduced Lifespan. These consequences are negatives for maternal cattle types, but not for paternal types. Therefore, quantitative growth traits should not be a selection criteria for a maternal breeder, who should concern himself instead with the qualitative maternal traits.
Looking at this data, we should be just as impressed with how "small" the blacks are, as we are at how "big" the whites are. Looking at the pictures, it's obvious that these calves aren't hurting for groceries, so the relatively lighter weights of the blacks suggests that they will mature lighter, and possibly later, which in turn suggests a longer lifespan.
I don't need to see a bigger sample size or repeated trials, because I know the man behind the data is spending his own money and time to find out the truth for himself. I'm just glad he shared it with us, because this is very valuable information. As exciting as these initial results are, just wait a few years until these white boys go in with the black girls and we get little smokies. Then we're going to find out what Efficiency really means.

TD, using Professor Hilman's data to grant MV's birthday wish, by making everything Black and White.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:37 pm

Tom D wrote:
Hilly wrote:
Vaccinated the summer calves the last couple days and took weights.

At 165 days +/- the weights on the blacks and whites

Whites,
Bulls ranged from 632lbs to 704lbs/averaging 655lbs
Heifers from 548lbs-610lbs/averaging 581lbs

Blacks
Bulls ranged from 462lbs to 544lbs/averaging 509lbs
Heifers from 422lbs to 480lbs/averaging 454lbs

The embryos were put in random cows and this group of 20 ran together from birth, so pasture and management were the same. The white bulls 146lbs heavier and the heifers 127lbs heavier then the blacks.


This is monumental. This is a perfectly simple experiment that shows us everything we need to know. This data shows what "growth" is, and what it is not. Gavin Falloon has often mentioned the Australian study at Trangie Research Station (or Triangle as Pops calls it) that showed that only 20% of the variation in pre-weaning gain was due to milk. I never believed that number, because it didn't fit with what I thought I knew, but this experiment of Craig's would certainly support it.
Everyone is obsessed with measuring growth in cattle, but what is growth? If growth is an increase in mass over a unit of time, then increasing the rate of growth must carry at least one of the two following consequences: Increased Mature Size or Reduced Lifespan. These consequences are negatives for maternal cattle types, but not for paternal types. Therefore, quantitative growth traits should not be a selection criteria for a maternal breeder, who should concern himself instead with the qualitative maternal traits.
Looking at this data, we should be just as impressed with how "small" the blacks are, as we are at how "big" the whites are. Looking at the pictures, it's obvious that these calves aren't hurting for groceries, so the relatively lighter weights of the blacks suggests that they will mature lighter, and possibly later, which in turn suggests a longer lifespan.
I don't need to see a bigger sample size or repeated trials, because I know the man behind the data is spending his own money and time to find out the truth for himself. I'm just glad he shared it with us, because this is very valuable information. As exciting as these initial results are, just wait a few years until these white boys go in with the black girls and we get little smokies. Then we're going to find out what Efficiency really means.

TD, using Professor Hilman's data to grant MV's birthday wish, by making everything Black and White.

well constructed TD; an exception where evil need not exist to make something "good"; two goods, black and white, co-exist...toss in Kendra`s thoughts, with Hilly`s "proof", and off we go to breed cattle; instead of proving things for scientists sake...
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jonken



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:26 pm



Another version of black and white. He goes by the nick name of Pepe La Pew around here. He's relentless at whispering sweet nothings into the ears of his penmates.
Jon

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tim hair



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:42 pm

nice hamp boar brings back memorys
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:51 pm

jonken wrote:


Another version of black and white. He goes by the nick name of Pepe La Pew around here. He's relentless at whispering sweet nothings into the ears of his penmates.
Jon


Jon,
his white shoulder stripe looks a little too narrow ...or am I missing the boat on something? Smile
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jonken



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:54 pm

MKeeney wrote:
jonken wrote:


Another version of black and white. He goes by the nick name of Pepe La Pew around here. He's relentless at whispering sweet nothings into the ears of his penmates.
Jon


Jon,
his white shoulder stripe looks a little too narrow ...or am I missing the boat on something? Smile

Maybe Professor Ying and Yang can explain the narrow belt or maybe the narrow belt is irrelevant compared to his narrow gene pool (herd has been closed for 20+ years and most recently his sire's mom is his mother, and his mom's parents were littermates.) I'd like to think he is genetically excellent, however he is not. The just is, I have a warped sense of humor and injected into Hilly's thread with the SOUL purpose of presenting Truline within another species. To further verify to the whining naysayers to put up or quit the belly aching. If the animal pictured isn't enough we can post a red one from another closed gene pool. Yes parts are lost as is parts are gained. I sure as hell can not explain livestock breeding, gene frequencies, mutations, regression, depression, etc... Not needing these topics clarified has been my problem. There was/is people prior to us who provided the visual proof and many of us chose not to accept it. Organic, natural law, Ying and Yang......carry on Professors. I have been and will continue to be your biggest advocate. Jon
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:18 am

Jon,
it seems as if I couldn`t see the boar for the white stripe; fair comparison to cattle breeding ignorance? Smile ...I`m laughing at and proud of the Paineful process we are going through here; we still haven`t reached the Age of Reason even after 200 years...ole Tom would be a Doubting Thomas by now I`d guess...but his TRUTH never fades...

Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe.

The one thing I`ll never accuse you of Jon, is being an infidel...you believe in prepotency, and you put your pigs where your mouth is Smile
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:42 am

[quote="MKeeney"]
jonken wrote:


Another version of black and white. He goes by the nick name of Pepe La Pew around here. He's relentless at whispering sweet nothings into the ears of his penmates.
Jon




Josh Jon,
it just seems nothing in livestock breeding is ever black and white...
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:42 pm

I’ve had a few people ask about my litters and I planned on posting an update but I’m running out of time before the gathering as I’ll be gone for the next few weeks.
 
So here are a couple of quick pictures from today...
 





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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:46 pm

made it down to wean Dunkum fall heifer calves tonight; after a meal of Walleye, best cole slaw ever, squash, buttermilk cornbread, and potatoes Linda loved, but I just ate more fish instead, I can report that the calves by the sorry looking son of the "Hilly cow ", just look superb...the best looking one isn`t the inbred one, but he is the one we keep to use...and then again, all of the above could just be the late harvest Riesling talking, so I will get a second opinion from JRN when he visits later this year...or anyone else for that matter; however, anyone who doesn`t like Riesling late harvest will be excluded from the data base due to lack of taste tongue 
but I don`t need a second opinion to know my whites don`t suit me as well as Hilly`s whites...

MK,
wondering what Larkota would charge from Red Deer to KY...scratch scratch 
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:06 am




Just some updated pictures of the Blacks




A724





one of five A724 female litter, if i can I'll post the other 4 but all very similar.  





four of five A724 male litter and full sibs to the above heifer.

I will try and post some white litter pictures next week.
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:48 am

Caught up with a couple more daughters of the black litter.







And a couple of the whites



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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:12 pm

Hilly,
the black heifers calved to what bull??????????????
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Thu Aug 28, 2014 1:04 am

All five full sib bulls pictured above ran as a mob with them.
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:33 am

good for you Hilly....let the learning begin continue.  would like to be invited back to Canada next fall.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:04 pm

Hilly wrote on 11-2-2011...

Simple concept, basic principles, not the least of which is nothing is free and even that basic premise has been missed !!!!!!!!!!!  Rolling Eyes

If nothing is free what are the costs of reducing variation and increasing frequencies in our own closed populations?

It is easy for me to get excited about the future possibility of crossing prepotent strains for more predictable results, and easy to forget the costs... Not all closed populations will have the same usefulness and some will get cut short due to more detrimental limitations and we will not be reimbursed for our time or money not to mention personal pride.

To my way of thinking the longer I am allowed to continue the reduction of variation in my closed population I can assume the higher the cost, not just money and time but in mans nature to want more, better, best and focus on the flaws drawing our attention to them instead of appreciating the strengths, what is...is.

I see this as a big gut check and pride crippling challenge for me going forward, will I give in and contaminate the pool or will I hold the independent line long enough for other independents to come along with the right piece of paper to complement a need and move the front forward.We are always just a cross away from reimbursement with the added advantage of increased predictability.

I like to rib Larry about the fact that he made this look to easy, getting all of our hopes up only to have them dashed  Sad  I can’t appreciated all he has seen and been through, giving me the feeling I’ve done enough typing, time to shut up and get to work

3 years past now...how time flies Smile mk


Last edited by MKeeney on Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:17 pm

Didn't know you could predict what I would write in the future Mike Wink

I'm assuming that the context I was talking about was Gavin's holes in a sheet of paper analogy when I wrote this, as I know it wasn't registration papers Very Happy

Time does fly but I haven't made it very far down that path yet...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:49 pm

Hilly wrote:
Didn't know you could predict what I would write in the future Mike Wink

I'm assuming that the context I was talking about was Gavin's holes in a sheet of paper analogy when I wrote this, as I know it wasn't registration papers Very Happy

Time does fly but I haven't made it very far down that path yet...

sorry Hilly...no crystal ball...edited the date Very Happy
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:02 pm




An updated picture of the #7 yellow bull from the original black sibs.
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:41 pm



2016 Update of the #10 yellow bull from the original litter and his Dam the A724 cow
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:44 am

This is a 2016 update on some of the full sib whites busy trying to continue the closed population.


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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:09 pm

Very impressive! Beautiful type of Charolais bull.
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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:55 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
Very impressive! Beautiful type of Charolais bull.

+1 on phenotype of both the Charolais and Angus bulls.
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:15 am

It looks fairly simple you put the boys with the girls and get the little ones with out much stress on the owner. Bob H
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