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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:37 pm

Bootheel wrote:
I like riled up Mike. Mellowyellow Mike is blah. Rage on.



Bootheel, sleeping with the windows open.

Joe, wouldn`t ya hate to see Kent if he was riled up? Smile
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:51 pm

5 employees are out of a job at the discontinued UK research farm; Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad the Ag Dean doesn`t want to sell the farm; since the money goes into the general fund...hooray for that cheers cheers since a taxpayer doesn`t give a damn what university fund his taxes go to;it`s all just money out of his pocket...here we are with cows/farming declining in this county; un-elected boards raising taxes to fund 10 county extension office jobs...back when we had more farmers; we had 4 employess...
you can learn more about cattle breeding at KC for free than you can at 90% of all the university cowherds combined...where else can you see and read a real world cattleman using a system approach to increase profit...simply...
if readers, visitors or researchers need more complicated proof than a relatively big char calf at side of an average cow, I don`t have time for them...if you are applying "trust, but verify" ...verify with your own cows and money...
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:08 pm

It is realy relvent to the size of the parents. The amount of difference is in the % of the females boday weight and the percent of bulls body weight. The reason that the Char has to be put on the Angus is 600 lb body difference in the cow. That is about 15 lbs of feed per day on the char or almost 3 ton at say 100 dollars per ton. It only took 2 dollars a pound to get the Char calf. Lets use the 1200 lb cow to produce 100 lbs more that seem to make 200 dollars more from less. Bob H
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MVCatt



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:48 pm

Bootheel wrote:
I like riled up Mike. Mellowyellow Mike is blah. Rage on.

Ya...me too. Hilly you're a damn trouble maker. Laughing
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:14 pm

Bob H wrote:
It is realy relvent to the size of the parents. The amount of difference is in the % of the females boday weight and the percent of bulls body weight. The reason that the Char has to be put on the Angus is 600 lb body difference in the cow. That is about 15 lbs of feed per day on the char or almost 3 ton at say 100 dollars per ton. It only took 2 dollars a pound to get the Char calf. Lets use the 1200 lb cow to produce 100 lbs more that seem to make 200 dollars more from less. Bob H

agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:15 pm

since this seems our hottest topic at the moment, here`s a little research on three 14 month old bulls I bought the other day...all treated the same; one of those "mostly grass" feeding regimes; only repeating what the young lady that cared for them said...
inbred "black" parent stock.... weighed 850


paternal half sib to above from an Angus cow...weight 1150



3/4 Charolais bull from my "private stock"...weight 1250



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:07 am

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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:04 pm

If only ending gov. BS was demanded whenever an example of a lack of perfection comes about, Like the gun control crowd.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:32 pm

MKeeney wrote:
since this seems our hottest topic at the moment, here`s a little research on three 14 month old bulls I bought the other day...all treated the same; one of those "mostly grass" feeding regimes; only repeating what the young lady that cared for them said...
inbred "black" parent stock.... weighed 850


paternal half sib to above from an Angus cow...weight 1150



3/4 Charolais bull from my "private stock"...weight 1250



\
I was really hoping df would use these three examples to explain how epd`s are calculated...do you use the purebred of the crossbred "performance" ?
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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:37 am

Bootheel wrote:
I like riled up Mike. Mellowyellow Mike is blah. Rage on.



Bootheel, sleeping with the windows open.

well, you see Joe, I offered df 50 closed herd cows; to be bred to the "best 4 maternal" yearling bull multiple sire group from within each year... year one becomes the base; df could measure the change and anything else he chooses over time...kinda like line1, except increasing the consistency of "maternal " would be the goal, rather than increasing yearling wt/line1...I think df and his students could learn a lot in 10 years; they could measure cow weight, ww, breed back , dna the calves for who sired who, measure the true inbreeding level of sires over time, etc ...and on and on with possibilities
but that`s not good enough for df...he needs a control, so he can publish a "scientific paper" to advance himself in the scientific world; what scientist could be content at Tenn Tech, when UT pays more money?
learning something is not a goal; like most phd`s, he figures he knows more already than the people raising cattle for a living; but he needs a paper to verify that among his co-horts...and like Foxx and other registered breeder newcomers, who wants to be committed to a 10, maybe 20 year breeding program Question Question Question Question ...they need SUCCESS NOW Exclamation
LL suggested df get 50 registered breeders to donate their best outlier heifer to TTU { they could write off the donation at $20,000 easy, since it`s the best cheers } and pay me extra to run them as a control relative to the difference in $EN figure...that would be about $50; but as we`ve seen with Hilly`s calves, you can just about triple some of the epd differences, so I would want $150 side stipend for feeding and caring for those cows...but that`s still not good enough; the cows would have to be run together as much as possible to keep the paper valid; remember the bottom line, the paper, not learning, is the goal...So yeah Joe, when you offer for free, what taxpayers have paid for, for too damn long, I get a little pissed for about a day...until the independence I just saved by being rejected causes me to smile Very Happy
mk,in the vicinity of hopping back on the train, as on she goes, waving bye-bye to those we leave behind, those who can`t get off square one of mainstream quo...




Which direction will you choose?
......................................This



......................................Or this



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df



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:10 am

MKeeney wrote:
Bootheel wrote:
I like riled up Mike. Mellowyellow Mike is blah. Rage on.



Bootheel, sleeping with the windows open.

well, you see Joe, I offered df 50 closed herd cows; to be bred to the "best 4 maternal" yearling bull multiple sire group from within each year... year one becomes the base; df could measure the change and anything else he chooses over time...kinda like line1, except increasing the consistency of "maternal " would be the goal, rather than increasing yearling wt/line1...I think df and his students could learn a lot in 10 years; they could measure cow weight, ww, breed back , dna the calves for who sired who, measure the true inbreeding level of sires over time, etc ...and on and on with possibilities
but that`s not good enough for df...he needs a control, so he can publish a "scientific paper" to advance himself in the scientific world; what scientist could be content at Tenn Tech, when UT pays more money?
learning something is not a goal; like most phd`s, he figures he knows more already than the people raising cattle for a living; but he needs a paper to verify that among his co-horts...and like Foxx and other registered breeder newcomers, who wants to be committed to a 10, maybe 20 year breeding program Question Question Question Question ...they need SUCCESS NOW Exclamation
LL suggested df get 50 registered breeders to donate their best outlier heifer to TTU { they could write off the donation at $20,000 easy, since it`s the best cheers } and pay me extra to run them as a control relative to the difference in $EN figure...that would be about $50; but as we`ve seen with Hilly`s calves, you can just about triple some of the epd differences, so I would want $150 side stipend for feeding and caring for those cows...but that`s still not good enough; the cows would have to be run together as much as possible to keep the paper valid; remember the bottom line, the paper, not learning, is the goal...So yeah Joe, when you offer for free, what taxpayers have paid for, for too damn long, I get a little pissed for about a day...until the independence I just saved by being rejected causes me to smile Very Happy
mk,in the vicinity of hopping back on the train, as on she goes, waving bye-bye to those we leave behind, those who can`t get off square one of mainstream quo...




Which direction will you choose?
......................................This



......................................Or this




Now, now MK. I know it is hard to tell the whole story in one little paragraph when this conversation went over several days by both PM and phone. As you know it is not as simple as "use your own cows" and I think you have come to the realization that doing ranch research can be pretty tough as well. We also discussed that measuring your close-bred cows is not appropriate as this is the parent stock.

I am more interested at the commercial ranch level. Let's look at two groups of cows in a commercial setting. One group is using the TruLine concept while the other is using the typical breeding program we see today. What is the difference in the age distribution of the females over time and what does the bell-shape curve look like on weaned calves? I am told these are the huge benefits; cows fit the environment and last longer while the calves are very uniform, which benefits the rancher, order buyer, feeder and packer.

And it is not about the paper but what the paper represents. You see, in academia, instructors are not very well respected when they don't have data to back up their claims. These papers are peered reviewed by five other researchers to get into most journals. Their peers want to see the methods used and be able to recreate the study. If I had one set of results then somebody in the West may also do the study to determine if the difference was genetic or if it there was an environmental component. Maybe the results are one way on fescue but changes completely in northeren IA or ID. Then we may have a sire x region interaction, which adds information to the scientific community AND to the beef producers.

In some circles it is expressed as "In God we trust, everybody else needs to bring their data"!

Historically, scientists added lots of information and probably added it much faster than beef producers could implement recommended practices. Today it is different. With the use of the internet and much easier travel, producers can learn things and try them much faster than academia can write a grant, get it funded, source the livestock and get enough data points to validate or refute the hypothesis. Now it is certainly fine to make "observations" and talk about what you saw and what you believe. It is not OK to state it is fact if it is not. If in doubt, just call someone in academia and ask them what they thought of Terry Gompert's "claims" with no data to back it up but going around discussing things as if they were fact. You don't even need to do that; just poll this group (again) as to how much they believe the stuff in the Stockman Grass Farmer. Can they back up their claims or is it all "marketing"?

I have a lot of respect for the posters who have discussed how things have improved since adopting this breeding program (especially Bob H). I thought a study on using the current genetics which are very divergent in the Angus breed would get this group excited. They have all claimed how bad the high $B females are and the goodness of their own. I say "let's quantify the difference". Let's prove this with data. I thought you would be all over this like stink on shit. Instead, all I got was a stimulating discussion by phone on how 50 cows was not enough to quantify anything maternal (yet that is a typical herd in the MidWest) and then a public spanking for being in academia and not accepting the shit offer. Imagine my disgust when I make an attempt to work with you, then read your response.

So it is not about the paper but is about learning. I have shown no interest in leaving TTU yet you don't hesitate to think this is about going to UT for more money and less about the learning. If I thought I knew it all, I sure would not continue to read this forum. Now LL will respond and say "poor df, he can't do anything without some taxpayer money to do a study that we all know the results. He has to have his data, blah, blah, blah" Then DV and a couple of others will respond because they can't wait to bash academia and don't want to be left out. Save it, unless you need to stroke your own ego. I extended the olive branch and it appears it got slapped down pretty hard.

And what I have done recently is ask some questions that I honestly want answers. Unfortuanately it doesn't come across well on the internet.

I think the last time I wrote this much I pretty much told my life story. And everybody was amazed I would throw those experiences and go into academia, like it put a bad taste in their mouth. However, I can explain things to students because of first hand experience. (Notice I don't have first-hand experience with linebreeding so continue to ask questions.)

With that said, I hope you all have a good day.
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:29 am

DF I would not be interested in doing much more of a study than I have already done. We have about 20 years of testing and results if you would like to come and visit or measure what we have done you are more than welcome. What I think you will find will not satisfy your needs as we just don't try to make the same mistakes over as this is what is called insanity. But in all seriousness we would be more than happy to have you come and look. You can spend your money any way you like as long as it does not cost me anything as I have to replace my own thru capitolism. Bob H
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:58 am

Bob H wrote:
DF I would not be interested in doing much more of a study than I have already done. We have about 20 years of testing and results if you would like to come and visit or measure what we have done you are more than welcome. What I think you will find will not satisfy your needs as we just don't try to make the same mistakes over as this is what is called insanity. But in all seriousness we would be more than happy to have you come and look. You can spend your money any way you like as long as it does not cost me anything as I have to replace my own thru capitolism. Bob H

I greatly appreciate the offer. Given the number of cows, you are certainly in a postion of great experience.

And I have to replace my personal money with capitalism, so I know what you are saying. All other money comes from grants or gifts, which is like going to the bank and asking for a loan. While it is not paid back, I still have to show why I need the money and how I am going to use it. Then they determine if it is worth funding out of their limited supply, given all the other request they have. And in my case, there are a limited number of funding agencies. I don't have the benefit of knowing the "banker" on a personal level. I am not saying you have it easier. I am saying that getting money and doing research is the job I have chosen but it is not as easy as some would think just looking in at academia.

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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:01 pm

50 cows was not enough to quantify anything maternal

while useful to a cattleman, not satistically significant in a research paper...

olive branches don`t cost much; 50 cows do...when there isn`t one thing monetarily for me or anyone else here to gain from the experience except satisfying curiousities...yes, comparing the progress of even a closed herd system to a mixed mainstream herd could be interesting; but it has to be evaluated properly ...

back to the "great maternal sire" syndrome...wouldn`t it be much more meritorious to find a population of good maternal cows, and leave the great to the BS`ERS...
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:44 pm

MKeeney wrote:
50 cows was not enough to quantify anything maternal

while useful to a cattleman, not satistically significant in a research paper...

olive branches don`t cost much; 50 cows do...when there isn`t one thing monetarily for me or anyone else here to gain from the experience except satisfying curiousities...yes, comparing the progress of even a closed herd system to a mixed mainstream herd could be interesting; but it has to be evaluated properly ...

back to the "great maternal sire" syndrome...wouldn`t it be much more meritorious to find a population of good maternal cows, and leave the great to the BS`ERS...

Sorry, I was about to say something really harsh. I'll go count to 100 and see if I still want to post.
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:44 pm

Come on DF, you did post something pretty harsh.

My Grandparent's generation wasn't shy about saying "it is none of your business". What ever happened to that? This; If someone won't tell them everything about everything they have or do they have something to hide is a horrible trend. It was pulled out over NAIS. May it rest in peace. It is the quo excuse to get good people to willfully submit to authoritative whims.

I don't even answer the phone most of the time anymore because while I am an insignificant smidgeon of blowfly sh!$, everyone seems to want my information.



Here is one, how about those wanting information prove that they are competant to HELP me. This assumption of competance among the research community is expired. Frankly, I am pretty unconcerned about the "public good" right now, because they showed what they think of folks like me and our country. I shared a good bit of info and genetic material with a worthless pipsqueak piece of recycled grass and water ruminant refuse scientist type. I provide, they promise to SHARE results and then crawfish on the deal. They are about as low a form of life as trespassing deer hunters. Self police, keep your word, and PROVE your worth, and information flow will overwhelm you.

Here is to freedom of information and freedom to privacy at the free will of the owner.
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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:28 pm

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
50 cows was not enough to quantify anything maternal

while useful to a cattleman, not satistically significant in a research paper...

olive branches don`t cost much; 50 cows do...when there isn`t one thing monetarily for me or anyone else here to gain from the experience except satisfying curiousities...yes, comparing the progress of even a closed herd system to a mixed mainstream herd could be interesting; but it has to be evaluated properly ...

back to the "great maternal sire" syndrome...wouldn`t it be much more meritorious to find a population of good maternal cows, and leave the great to the BS`ERS...

Sorry, I was about to say something really harsh. I'll go count to 100 and see if I still want to post.

I`ve been biting my tongue as well; but if you would go ahead and be the first to say something harsh; then I`ll be totally free of my usual good natured manners... Smile
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:52 pm

Kent Powell wrote:
Come on DF, you did post something pretty harsh.

My Grandparent's generation wasn't shy about saying "it is none of your business". What ever happened to that? This; If someone won't tell them everything about everything they have or do they have something to hide is a horrible trend. It was pulled out over NAIS. May it rest in peace. It is the quo excuse to get good people to willfully submit to authoritative whims.

I don't even answer the phone most of the time anymore because while I am an insignificant smidgeon of blowfly sh!$, everyone seems to want my information.



Here is one, how about those wanting information prove that they are competant to HELP me. This assumption of competance among the research community is expired. Frankly, I am pretty unconcerned about the "public good" right now, because they showed what they think of folks like me and our country. I shared a good bit of info and genetic material with a worthless pipsqueak piece of recycled grass and water ruminant refuse scientist type. I provide, they promise to SHARE results and then crawfish on the deal. They are about as low a form of life as trespassing deer hunters. Self police, keep your word, and PROVE your worth, and information flow will overwhelm you.

Here is to freedom of information and freedom to privacy at the free will of the owner.

I am sorry to hear of your experiences. While I have only caught bits and pieces, it is obvious your rights have been trampled upon. I share your disgust about the country.

I guess I was pretty harsh. I have never said anything about or to LL until this mornings post. I was just mad enough to be a part of other post where I should not have been brought in that I thought I would return the "favor".

I think I edited the post where I addressed this but will type it again. Maybe I will express myself better this time! When producers are on the cutting edge, it is sometimes impossible to find a researcher who can help. In addition, some researchers know the principles but have never done it. For example, each year is a little different in terms of weather. Thus, forage managment is different. A scientist can teach the principles of forage growth and managment but can't research all of the different approaches that a rancher might make.

FYI, there is some research in the Midwest concerning "mob" grazing. so far the results would show some very tired graduate students, who are tired of moving fence as describe in popular press and by the proponents of mob grazing. Will mob grazing work? Soon there will be data to show what happens from someone who is not selling a seminar, book, bull, etc.

I respect your statement of PROVING your worth. Of course, it is a bit like saying we want to hire people with 3-5 yrs of experience. The only problem is new graduates don't have 3-5 yrs. I thought this would be good research.



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df



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:54 pm

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
50 cows was not enough to quantify anything maternal

while useful to a cattleman, not satistically significant in a research paper...

olive branches don`t cost much; 50 cows do...when there isn`t one thing monetarily for me or anyone else here to gain from the experience except satisfying curiousities...yes, comparing the progress of even a closed herd system to a mixed mainstream herd could be interesting; but it has to be evaluated properly ...

back to the "great maternal sire" syndrome...wouldn`t it be much more meritorious to find a population of good maternal cows, and leave the great to the BS`ERS...

Sorry, I was about to say something really harsh. I'll go count to 100 and see if I still want to post.

I`ve been biting my tongue as well; but if you would go ahead and be the first to say something harsh; then I`ll be totally free of my usual good natured manners... Smile

Some might think I should unload but it is not really necessary. With conflict comes a new perspective.
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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:32 pm

and what does the bell-shape curve look like on weaned calves? I am told these are the huge benefits; cows fit the environment and last longer while the calves are very uniform, which benefits the rancher, order buyer, feeder and packer.

df,
I never run across any huge benefits, same as I`ve never found any great bulls...though I have hopes for DV`s highly classified, secret projects... Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:47 pm

There are no great bulls at Horse Butte, just soul savers. DV...
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:50 pm

MKeeney wrote:
and what does the bell-shape curve look like on weaned calves? I am told these are the huge benefits; cows fit the environment and last longer while the calves are very uniform, which benefits the rancher, order buyer, feeder and packer.

df,
I never run across any huge benefits, same as I`ve never found any great bulls...though I have hopes for DV`s highly classified, secret projects... Shocked

I read about the huge benefits of consistency of calves on this site recently. The comment was directed at me. Apparently you don't share that observation?

Maybe we (I) should back up as I am failing the test. What are the benefits to the commercial producer, including the increase in profit over the most common breeding program of commercial straightbred cows? This is a serious question. I would like the answer as when I summarize this system, I invariably get something wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:29 pm

Dennis Voss wrote:
There are no great bulls at Horse Butte, just soul savers. DV...

For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

I`ve always thought/was taught this writing as implying a penalty for losing one`s soul came later, but I believe now it most applies to everyday happiness...
I`m saving the name KA Soul Saver for the next Unwanted Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:33 pm

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
and what does the bell-shape curve look like on weaned calves? I am told these are the huge benefits; cows fit the environment and last longer while the calves are very uniform, which benefits the rancher, order buyer, feeder and packer.

df,
I never run across any huge benefits, same as I`ve never found any great bulls...though I have hopes for DV`s highly classified, secret projects... Shocked

I read about the huge benefits of consistency of calves on this site recently. The comment was directed at me. Apparently you don't share that observation?

Maybe we (I) should back up as I am failing the test. What are the benefits to the commercial producer, including the increase in profit over the most common breeding program of commercial straightbred cows? This is a serious question. I would like the answer as when I summarize this system, I invariably get something wrong.

I guess huge is a matter of personal perspective Smile

of course there are benefits to uniformity; could uniformity of a calf crop be created more effectively and/or economically with genetics, or a 45 day calving season? scientists are always looking to prove and quantify differences...I don`t think you are about to do either to a highly repeatable level across differing herds as I understand your attempted project...
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:12 pm

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
and what does the bell-shape curve look like on weaned calves? I am told these are the huge benefits; cows fit the environment and last longer while the calves are very uniform, which benefits the rancher, order buyer, feeder and packer.

df,
I never run across any huge benefits, same as I`ve never found any great bulls...though I have hopes for DV`s highly classified, secret projects... Shocked

I read about the huge benefits of consistency of calves on this site recently. The comment was directed at me. Apparently you don't share that observation?

Maybe we (I) should back up as I am failing the test. What are the benefits to the commercial producer, including the increase in profit over the most common breeding program of commercial straightbred cows? This is a serious question. I would like the answer as when I summarize this system, I invariably get something wrong.

I guess huge is a matter of personal perspective Smile

of course there are benefits to uniformity; could uniformity of a calf crop be created more effectively and/or economically with genetics, or a 45 day calving season? scientists are always looking to prove and quantify differences...I don`t think you are about to do either to a highly repeatable level across differing herds as I understand your attempted project...

Sorry, bit my tongue. I may not be able to speak at all on Thurs. Wink
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