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Hilly



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Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : Sylvan Lake, Alberta

PostSubject: Black and White    Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:53 pm

I have my closed strain litters on the ground, 10 black and 10 white born either side of the first of June.

Took the camera with me today, month old calves all calved on pasture all had good vigour at birth and no assistance except for the first white calf as the cows were scared to death of the first one I guess it was the contrast.



I took pictures of mostly white calves today with the intention of sending them to Mean Spirit privately but decided to start a thread to follow their development even if it’s only MS and I that are interested.









"Injecting outside blood into a proven, attested, selected genetic pattern is a crime of the same enornmity as a burglar's breaking into one's home and leaving furniture, fixtures and precious keepsakes in a state of utter disarray"

Partners in crime Smile

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:03 am

just beautiful...cattle and concept...DV says the MS bull he has is sooooo good footed...JD is breeding away to the son of A-724; Unwanted`s dam bred to him; going to be interesting...awww, great expectations, the propellent of an industry Smile

how tightly bred are the whites?
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:57 am

I’m not sure how close they are Mike. Not as close as John had planned I don’t think, as we had to switch sires in the end to get into Canada.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:51 am

oh well, you don`t need everything ready made...takes all the breeding fun out Smile I had a call needing Charolais bulls for the fall yesterday ; I`ll trust it more when I see the money Smile
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:31 am

Parent stock,

The blacks are both pictured at six years of age and I don’t know the age of the whites...









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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:11 pm

Would it be fair to say the white calves have the type of their sire whereas the black calves are shaping to have the type of their mother?
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:01 am

Not sure Grassy hard to tell at this early stage aside from muscle and growth, MS can correct me but I don't think that cow is small.

I see the whites as more of a paternal type as opposed to the terminal type I tried first, illustrated in my least productive cow on the other thread.

The growth and muscle is of more contrast then the type between the black and whites to my way of thinking and I’m not sure the difference between the parents of the respective strains is great enough to distinguish at a glance even though they are not close bred... I see a little of both parents in the black calves.

The black bull picture may not tell the whole story either, he has more daughters in my herd than any other bull to date and when I chose him it was not on his looks, in fact I would have had to pay my neighbours to use him as a young bull and maybe even some of you as a mature bull, but my selection was base on the females in his family, I have seen or have picture of most all of the cows close up in his pedigree and over all I have not been disappointed in his ability to replicate the females in his family through his daughters at this early stage.

As I read this, the definition of type becomes oddly subjective, in my response I’m talking more of the general shape... like the paper coffee cup illustration

Here is a picture of his dam at around 8 years old...



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Mean Spirit



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Join date : 2010-09-26

PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:31 am

Coming late to this thread to answer a couple questions. First, I think those babies look good enough to me. As for the terminal vs paternal distinction, I'm going to prefer calling them paternal. Whether I'm right or wrong, I'm spending way too much effort on udders and stayability on grass and fescue and stuff like that, and too little on pure growth to consider them just terminal.

Dennis' bull and Craig's babies are related- we intended to make them paternal sibs by my bull, but ran into export issues- my bull is not exportable, so his embryos weren't- so we used his sire on Hilly's calves. So the pictured bull is sire to Craig's calves and grand sire to Dennis' bull.

Dennis' bull and Craig's calves are inbred, sort of. A great deal of inbreeding in the 5th and greater generations, but actual inbreeding coefficients are pretty unimpressive- I figured it up once, it's sorta 3-5%. Nothing to get too excited about.

The dam of Craig's cow was a pretty unusual cow in her body type, and not small. Really quite dense- frame 6 or a little smaller, but had to be at least 1800 lbs. Lost her this spring- just found dead- but we actually have her orphan calf sired by none other than Dennis' bull. He's a hustler, stealing milk since he was five days old, but not much of a calf to look at. But we might get him up and start feeding him soon jut to see if there's something there. We do admire his hard working attitude, and may overlook his apparent lack of talent. In my family, we've always thought talent was overrated and hard work was underrated, perhaps based on our own "gifts" or lack thereof.

MS
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:34 pm


Mean, the disposition on these 2 ½ month old calves is subpar at best; you know the rest of the story Wink



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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:45 am


Brought the camera this morning, calves are around 120 days old, whites are starting to put on some hair Smile




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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:54 am

Black and white and green... :I'm up scouting out future Gathering spots and Michigan is now high on the list....one thing to our advantage, we could all stay in the same house Very Happy
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:40 pm

Vaccinated the summer calves the last couple days and took weights.

At 165 days +/- the weights on the blacks and whites

Whites,
Bulls ranged from 632lbs to 704lbs/averaging 655lbs
Heifers from 548lbs-610lbs/averaging 581lbs

Blacks
Bulls ranged from 462lbs to 544lbs/averaging 509lbs
Heifers from 422lbs to 480lbs/averaging 454lbs

The embryos were put in random cows and this group of 20 ran together from birth, so pasture and management were the same. The white bulls 146lbs heavier and the heifers 127lbs heavier then the blacks.
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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:56 pm

Hilly wrote:
Vaccinated the summer calves the last couple days and took weights.

At 165 days +/- the weights on the blacks and whites

Whites,
Bulls ranged from 632lbs to 704lbs/averaging 655lbs
Heifers from 548lbs-610lbs/averaging 581lbs

Blacks
Bulls ranged from 462lbs to 544lbs/averaging 509lbs
Heifers from 422lbs to 480lbs/averaging 454lbs

The embryos were put in random cows and this group of 20 ran together from birth, so pasture and management were the same. The white bulls 146lbs heavier and the heifers 127lbs heavier then the blacks.



In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is considered a heretic.
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:00 am

Hilly would you have any idea what the actual parents mature weight is ? Bob H
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:29 am

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Grassfarmer



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Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:10 am

I'm a little surprised to see such clear weight differences between the 4 categories given the recipient dams role in carrying and rearing the calves to this age. Does this indicate that genetically the cattle strains you are starting with are very predictable or that the surrogate dams contribution was pretty equal across the board? Or both?
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:41 am

I'm on the road so short answers...
Bob, the whites, bull 2600lbs and MS said the cow would be 1800lbs or better
The blacks, bull would have been around 2000lbs and the cow in her working clothes would be around 1300lbs.
Grassy, I'm not sure why things worked out like they did but I did pick very simaler cows from a production standpoint in previous years.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:55 am

Hilly wrote:
Vaccinated the summer calves the last couple days and took weights.

At 165 days +/- the weights on the blacks and whites

Whites,
Bulls ranged from 632lbs to 704lbs/averaging 655lbs
Heifers from 548lbs-610lbs/averaging 581lbs

Blacks
Bulls ranged from 462lbs to 544lbs/averaging 509lbs
Heifers from 422lbs to 480lbs/averaging 454lbs

The embryos were put in random cows and this group of 20 ran together from birth, so pasture and management were the same. The white bulls 146lbs heavier and the heifers 127lbs heavier then the blacks.

according to my calculations using across breed epd adjustments, there should have been 50 lbs different in the blacks and whites at weaning; since the cows and environment were the same...instead, there was near 150 lbs...300% above epd projection...is our bureaucratic "data" this flawed?
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:47 am

MKeeney wrote:
Hilly wrote:
Vaccinated the summer calves the last couple days and took weights.

At 165 days +/- the weights on the blacks and whites

Whites,
Bulls ranged from 632lbs to 704lbs/averaging 655lbs
Heifers from 548lbs-610lbs/averaging 581lbs

Blacks
Bulls ranged from 462lbs to 544lbs/averaging 509lbs
Heifers from 422lbs to 480lbs/averaging 454lbs

The embryos were put in random cows and this group of 20 ran together from birth, so pasture and management were the same. The white bulls 146lbs heavier and the heifers 127lbs heavier then the blacks.

according to my calculations using across breed epd adjustments, there should have been 50 lbs different in the blacks and whites at weaning; since the cows and environment were the same...instead, there was near 150 lbs...300% above epd projection...is our bureaucratic "data" this flawed?

Did you multiply the phenotypic difference by the heritability?

How many calves does it take to determine the differences between breeds?
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MVCatt



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:35 pm

df wrote:

How many calves does it take to determine the differences between breeds?

DF, I don't know how many? Do you? Let's say a million is a good sample...now will you then worry about the prepotency of the parent stock of the offspring you are comparing, and how will you measure that?
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:53 pm

df wrote:
How many calves does it take to determine the differences between breeds?


10 black and 10 white born either side of the first of June.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:47 pm

MVCatt wrote:
df wrote:

How many calves does it take to determine the differences between breeds?

DF, I don't know how many? Do you? Let's say a million is a good sample...now will you then worry about the prepotency of the parent stock of the offspring you are comparing, and how will you measure that?

I need two groups of cows; both sets are run as commercial herds. The first set is a typical commercial herd with typical genetic selection. The second is your ideal herd. Both groups are mated to an unrelated breed. I am not sure but think 50-75 cows in each group would give a fair comparison. Do you know of anybody with these two different herds willing to breed to an unrelated breed?

Tom D, thanks for the response. I would feel a bit more comfortable with more calves.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:28 pm

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Hilly wrote:
Vaccinated the summer calves the last couple days and took weights.

At 165 days +/- the weights on the blacks and whites

Whites,
Bulls ranged from 632lbs to 704lbs/averaging 655lbs
Heifers from 548lbs-610lbs/averaging 581lbs

Blacks
Bulls ranged from 462lbs to 544lbs/averaging 509lbs
Heifers from 422lbs to 480lbs/averaging 454lbs

The embryos were put in random cows and this group of 20 ran together from birth, so pasture and management were the same. The white bulls 146lbs heavier and the heifers 127lbs heavier then the blacks.

according to my calculations using across breed epd adjustments, there should have been 50 lbs different in the blacks and whites at weaning; since the cows and environment were the same...instead, there was near 150 lbs...300% above epd projection...is our bureaucratic "data" this flawed?

Did you multiply the phenotypic difference by the heritability?How many calves does it take to determine the differences between breeds?

no, I did not adjust for heritability, because I`m not figuring the epd/breeding value of the calves; I`m talking about the phenotypic differences in the progeny of two bulls where the environment difference has been eliminated...we`re constantly told by the phd crowd that a 60 ww bull gives you 50 more lbs than a 10...instead , raised on the same dams rather than their own mother, they vary 150 lbs...if you listen to the scientists recommendations to AI to proven bulls, that recommendation alone tells you there is no prepotency being created in mainstream cattle; just numbers , based on averages...scientists should study their own words occasionally to recognize what they are not saying...or is the "proven bull" thing just a BS fallacy; since it is based on averages..."proven bull" is a mainstream selling point; the AI studs, the tax collecting state cattlemens groups, the universities, the breed associations....all bureaucrats who have each other`s backs...
an ideal herd bred to another breed would then make the ideal herd better than ideal?

How many calves does it take to determine the differences between breeds?[/quote]

4 calves at least...Angus are black and usually polled...herefords are red and can be polled or horned...those are the only defining traits between the two breeds...why don`t we stop this frickin`breed difference talk and talk in real terms of biological type?? oh, maybe an association might fund a research project? I forgot about beauracrats having each others back there for a second...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:47 pm

create your own cattle df...
I`ll donate the use of pete and re-pete and another close bred Shoshone...sire dau mating equilivalent, little sorry assed looking bulls in your crowd ...bred 90 cows a couple years
you buy or get donated 4 bulls selected for their uniformly grouped, top percentile epds, but different ancestry in each...breed 90 cows couple of years...
keep ALL daughters...measure typical university stuff, even when they fart {greenhouse gas? } everything but profit...but maybe leachman would let you use his "formula"
breed them to the "other breed"...weigh cows, weigh calves, create your maternal index...
I`m not interested in learning things I already know just to quantify it for research papers...called the beef cattle executive secretary today to tell him to get on with shutting down a university farm that has never produced diddley in any kind of research...reminds of that bunch at Advantage crying over the MSU Herefords being sold...why not? not a damn hoof in them that would consisently re-create themselves, nothing that couldn`t be found in any mainstream herd in America...
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Black and White    Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:33 pm

Re -create themselves? There is too much improvin' to be done. Why recreate the obsolete? On second thought, lets call it re-evolve themselves. Science has no place for creation. Good thing because it hasn't created a damn thing other than a black hole sucking up money and every flicker of creativity with the gall to rear its defiance to that useful idiot known as +the quo.

I know one thing that seems to breed true. Trespassing, poaching, specks of fecal material with unknown fathers who call themselves deer hunters.
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