Keeney`s Corner

A current and reflective discussion of cattle breeding from outside the registered mainstream
 
HomeUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 Knowing the cattle, knowing the data

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
AuthorMessage
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 5022
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:03 pm

I am having trouble seeing the impact of this most Holstein cows have only two calves in there lifetime?

you can`t see the ramifications of this on the price of milk in NV , WT? You`re such a cynic...
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 5022
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:05 pm

to be haplotype or infertile...that is the question? I fear Patb may have to leave the cattle business for lack of clean gene cattle... Smile
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
Grassfarmer



Posts : 912
Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:12 pm

W.T wrote:
I am having trouble seeing the impact of this most Holstein cows have only two calves in there lifetime?

If it takes them 5 years to produce the 2 calves I guess it could get uneconomic? Identifying a "genetic defect" to account for things not conceiving when you think they should may be trendy and make you feel it's nothing to do with your breeding decisions. But really when they pushed milk production selection to levels where the cows are walking skeletons should a drop off in fertility surprise anyone?



















Last edited by Grassfarmer on Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
http://www.luingcattle.com
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:34 pm

I know little of Bonsma, or of the scientific significance of heifer pregnancy epd's. The latter will only tell it to you after it is too late, and the artist in the art of breeding should have already noticed that all of the bulls daughters didn't breed. So I am confused as to what we are fussing over.

If Bonsma type evaluations could lead to picking the fertile type, before the problems occur, it would seem a much cheaper and quicker selection method. Of course the scientific method would be accurate in hindsight, like all good charts and graphs, but do little to keep you from making the same mistake again, if the selection criteria on unproven animals is still the same.


Back to top Go down
Grassfarmer



Posts : 912
Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:41 pm

The scientific approach is good business for scientists, charters and graphers though. We have to keep their merry-go-round a turning too Smile
Back to top Go down
http://www.luingcattle.com
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 5022
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:52 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
The scientific approach is good business for scientists, charters and graphers though. We have to keep their merry-go-round a turning too Smile

the bottom line for me is my cattle are more problem free and as profitable using my own bulls rather than everyone`s data and formulas...but that`s scientific fact as well...you just can`t escape science Grassy Smile

Quote :
I don't think there is any doubt about the value of first service conception. Most of our heifers who go on to be very productive cows are single service. My experience is that some of the second service heifers will end up staying around but only a low percentage of third service heifers will make good cows. However HP simply measures whether a heifer is pregnant or open without regard to breeding date. So do we know the correlation between HP and first service conception? I think it would be fairly high or maybe very high but theoretically you could have two bulls with the same HP EPD where one bull sires mostly first service heifers while the other produces mostly second and third service heifers. I think HP is very useful but is it possible a first service EPD or a heifer days to calving EPD would be even better?

the above advantage post would beg the question "why not a 21 day breeding season then?" I think we know the answer...there would be too many opens...
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 5022
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:55 am

here`s a Pharo co-operator link on bull fertility...

http://www.intellicast.com/National/Pre ... ure10.aspx

Smile
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
moemantha



Posts : 10
Join date : 2012-05-08

PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:03 pm

Just wondering if someone has experience when they know what they have is good enough and that they don't need to be going forward anymore and start trying to make more of what they feel is good enough.
Back to top Go down
jhudson



Posts : 29
Join date : 2010-09-24

PostSubject: Knowing the cattle   Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:22 pm

Moe, Good observation. Shouldn't that be goal? Jim
Back to top Go down
moemantha



Posts : 10
Join date : 2012-05-08

PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:52 pm

Tks Jim, I not sure how a person looks at a herd and not see where they couldn't be improved. There are many traits that we really can't see and touch and for me is so variable it's a joke. As a guy with cows, if they are born, breathe air and pay the bills I think that would be the first step. Improving after that would depend on a person's ambition.
Back to top Go down
jhudson



Posts : 29
Join date : 2010-09-24

PostSubject: Knowing the cattle   Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:51 pm

If you have females that are fertile, adapted to environment, produce good calf each year, have good disposition, no calving problems and are structurally correct from top to bottom what are we to improve?Jim
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 5022
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:12 pm

jhudson wrote:
If you have females that are fertile, adapted to environment, produce good calf each year, have good disposition, no calving problems and are structurally correct from top to bottom what are we to improve?Jim
The challenge becomes to not screw up what you have; trying to get more...I believe the answer to "how much more should we add?" is add whatever you can that doesn`t take away from the goodness you already have..."adding" things can manifest itself in varying forms...traits, consistentcy, variation{Falloon} ...the skill, knowledge, and luck of the breeder along with the predictability of the "added genes" will determine the success...
the one thing no one wants to talk about that cannot be escaped...cattle are what they eat; no more, no less...only a genetic system changes overall efficiency...
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 5022
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:22 pm

I don't want a new tractor. I am driving the same tractor my Grandpa bought in 1964, a JD 3020 with power shift and a rollover bar, which both were HUGE expensive options back then. My Dad used it to the point that the draw bar pin hole is actually egg shaped!
I am driving that tractor over ground which has been in the Gardner family since 1843. So no, I don't want a new tractor OR a new farm. I like them both!! And I am proud to carry on both traditions!




kpowell reply

Even though it fails miserably in all curent measures of quality and is considered obsolete that it is still functional and does the job it was meant to do? Interesting.


I forgot to add...the same basic type and ingredient cow has been "best" from 1950 to 2012 and existed in 1920...and we still want to change her...
change the terminals to suit the marketplace, niche or mainstream, but leave the cow alone except to make the right kind more often...
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 5022
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:46 am

more hp...

Calving season: The first 21 days - Carl Dahlen, NDSU Extension Beef Cattle Specialist

Several studies have quantified the different advantages that calves born during the first 21 days of the calving season have over those that are born later. Each day a calf is on the ground, it has the opportunity to gain weight, and the relationship between birth date and actual weaning weight is obvious: Older calves are typically heavier at weaning compared with younger calves. However, these effects extend well beyond the time of weaning.

In calves placed in feedlots, the greater feedlot entry weights (a function of greater weaning weights) are followed by heavier final carcass weights, improvements in carcass quality grade and the proportion of carcasses qualifying for premium beef programs for calves born during the first 21 days of the calving season compared with those born later. In addition, a greater proportion of replacement heifers born during the first 21 days of the calving season were cycling at the start of their first breeding season, and this subsequently led to greater overall pregnancy rates compared with heifers born later in the calving season.

We also begin to see impacts of early calving on the cows themselves. The pattern of late-calving cows becoming perpetually late calving and subsequently not becoming pregnant is familiar to all of us. Early calving cows are more likely to become pregnant early in the next breeding season and a recent report (Kill et al., 2012) began to quantify the impacts of replacement heifers calving within the first 21 days of the calving season on longevity in the cow herd.

The average time early calving heifers remained in the herd was 5.1 years compared with only 3.9 years for heifers that calves after the first 21 days of the calving season in a group of 2,195 South Dakota producer-owned cattle. In a group of 16,549 cattle managed at the U.S. Department of Agriculture's Meat Animal Research Center, heifers calving in the first 21 days, second 21 days and later had an average longevity of 8.2, 7.6 and 7.2 years, respectively. In both cases, data were confined to cattle culled for nonpregnancy, and other types of culls (conformation, temperament, etc.) were removed for the analysis. Taken together, this work showed that early calving heifers had at least a one-calf lifetime advantage compared with late-calving heifers.

This one-calf lifetime advantage also was complemented by extra weaning weight at the end of the breeding season that accumulated to the weight of an additional calf during the lifetime of the cow. Thus heifers that calved during the first 21 days of the calving season had the equivalent of a two-calf lifetime advantage over those heifers that calved after the first 21 days of the calving season. The moral of this story should be to focus on keeping heifers that become pregnant during the first 21 days of the breeding season.

With this in mind, producers may want to consider their heifer development and management strategies and related costs a few different ways. We are all very cognizant of the costs associated with developing heifers through their first breeding season. Producers may not wish to retain any more heifers on breeding pastures than they wish to keep for themselves to control costs.

However, an alternative method of stocking replacement heifer breeding pastures would be to stock enough heifers so that the number of replacements needed would be met solely by those heifers becoming pregnant during the first 21 days of the breeding season. To achieve this stocking rate, the number of heifers on breeding pastures would need to increase according to the proportion we anticipate becoming pregnant early. Data from the North Dakota Beef Cattle Improvement Association's Cow Herd Appraisal and Performance Software (CHAPS) revealed that the proportion of females becoming pregnant during the first 21 days of the breeding season ranged from 58 to 64 percent during the past 10 years. Therefore, we would conservatively estimate that 60 percent of the heifers would become pregnant during the first 21 days.

To calculate the stocking rates of breeding pastures in this scenario, we would divide the number of replacements we are targeting to retain by 60 percent (0.60). For example, if a producer wishes to retain and calve out 50 replacement heifers, 84 heifers would be stocked onto breeding pastures (50 � 0.60 = 84 total heifers). The divisor used is herd-specific, and producers knowing the proportion of heifers becoming pregnant early in their herds should anticipate accordingly. Perhaps the benchmark of 65 percent of the cows becoming pregnant within the first 21 days is achieved regularly and only 77 heifers would need to be kept.

The number of heifers mentioned above is obviously a much larger number of heifers than normally would be run on many operations. Several items are critical to the success of developing a successful system of retaining only those females pregnant within the first 21 days of the breeding season:

* Enough high-quality heifers and bull power to stock breeding pastures at suggested rates - If sufficient numbers of high-quality replacements are not available but a second-tier group of heifers is available, then producers are faced with another question: What is better for the long-term profitability of the herd - a better-quality heifer that likely will not last in the herd, or a slightly lower-quality heifer that likely will last in the herd? This can be answered only by the herd manager.

* Enough winter feed supply and grazing pasture, or money to secure each, to develop extra heifers - Aside from that exception of producers who normally retain nonreplacement heifers as yearling stocker cattle, grazing plans and stored feed supplies would need to be adjusted to facilitate the greater number of breeding heifers maintained.

* A method of identifying heifers that are pregnant within the first 21 days of the breeding season - Accuracy and timing of pregnancy diagnosis are critical when building a system that relies on knowing when conception occurred. The earlier pregnancy determination can be conducted relative to breeding, the more accurate it will be. In addition, the timing of pregnancy determination is critical to ensure that all pregnant heifers are detected and appropriately classified into groups according to estimated conception dates (for more details, see the August 2011 article in The Ranch Hand titled "Consider Early Pregnancy Checking").

* A solid marketing plan for nonpregnant heifers and for heifers that became pregnant after the 21-day breeding target - Remember that we started with a high-quality group of replacements, and because of the diversity in the beef industry, the heifers that became pregnant outside of one producer's target may be exactly what another producer is looking for. If natural-service bulls are used, then a market for a group of bred heifers needs to be secured. Additionally, a favorable market for nonpregnant heifers should be identified. Quite likely, the open-heifer markets will be complemented by the timing of pregnancy determination (see previous item) because nonpregnant heifers identified early could be sold as grass calves in the late-summer yearling markets.

An additional production system utilized by some beef operations is to breed each heifer a single time via artificial insemination and not run any cleanup bulls. Pregnant heifers are kept and open heifers are sold as stockers at the end of summer or retained through the feedlot phase. In either case, both systems identify the heifers that become pregnant early in the breeding season, and both systems take advantage of the additional longevity and accumulated weaning weight that accompany these early calving heifers.

Given the lifelong benefits of heifers calving early in the calving season, producers may want to implement a system that focuses on retaining only these heifers. Before making this decision, several items need to be considered and a thorough plan developed. In addition, producers should evaluate nutrition and management decisions that offer heifers the greatest likelihood of early pregnancy.

However a question remains: Is early calving per se what leads to the benefits highlighted in the above paragraphs or is it something inherent in heifers that naturally calve early that drives the observed advantages? Whether heifers that become pregnant early only as a result of additional management experience the same benefits of longevity and calf performance as those heifers that become pregnant early without intervention is unknown at this time. Either way, I hope that you have a high proportion of heifers calving within the first 21 days of the calving season that go on to wean large, healthy calves and continue to stay in the herd for many years to come!


Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
Will



Posts : 224
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:12 pm

MK, when you sell your bulls you have 5 in a pen and sell choice. Does the smallest bull in the pen of 5 get picked first? Always? Sometimes?
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 5022
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:43 pm

Will wrote:
MK, when you sell your bulls you have 5 in a pen and sell choice. Does the smallest bull in the pen of 5 get picked first? Always? Sometimes?
they`ll all the same size in a pen...and all pens bring about the same, except the crossbreds, which are a tough sell usually...and rightfully so...
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
Will



Posts : 224
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:55 pm

Funny how we are the same yet different. Back in the day when I had purebred Angus bulls and they were good I would always pen them with the Gelbvieh Angus bulls. They always sold for less and rightfully so because they were not as good as the Gelvieh Angus hybrid bulls.
Back to top Go down
jhudson



Posts : 29
Join date : 2010-09-24

PostSubject: Knowing Cattle   Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:59 pm

Will, Not as good in what respect? Jim
Back to top Go down
MVCatt



Posts : 147
Join date : 2010-09-24
Age : 42
Location : SW Penn

PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:04 am

jhudson wrote:
Will, Not as good in what respect? Jim

Jim...I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess phenotype.
Back to top Go down
df



Posts : 662
Join date : 2010-09-28

PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:09 am

I have not seen anything about Bonsma's ability to select replacement heifers. The discussion I have seen is about cows that should have had at least 1 calf.

When Bonsma discussed type, was this about cows that had already had calves or was he able to select heifers between the ages of 7 and 13 months to go into the replacement pen?

Back to top Go down
LCP



Posts : 82
Join date : 2012-04-16
Location : north central SD

PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:38 pm

MKeeney wrote:

"... The pattern of late-calving cows becoming perpetually late calving and subsequently not becoming pregnant is familiar to all of us...

I am apparently a poor manager because this is not something that is a given in my herd. It is very common for my early-calving cows or heifers to breed back late and calve late the next year, and almost as common for the late calving ones to breed early and calve a month sooner the next year. It's like a see-saw when you look at some of their calving intervals over the years. Yes there are some that are consistently late, but not too many. I've been told I need to increase the energy in my ration...which would probably mean corn or distillers or something. I'm not willing to spend more on feed or equipment (only feed round bales, no TMR here) so I'm figuring on calving a little later. So the take-home message for me is look at your own operation, don't take it for granted that the research applies directly to your ranch. I would be selling cows, and maybe heifers, that would do just fine in my setup if I followed their advice.
Back to top Go down
Angus 62



Posts : 145
Join date : 2010-09-26

PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:00 pm

Back when I was much smarter then I am today one drought year I fed everything I could find to a group of early Feb. calving cows with the intent of AIing them. Had another group of late March early April cows that were running out on some hay stubble. One day I was heat detecting the first group of cows when I could see cows in the other bunch riding and generally acting like some were in heat - some barely a month postpartum. I had hundreds more per head in feed in the early calving bunch and nothing to show for it but a bigger feed bill and the misery of calving in -20 degree cold. At least I was smart enough to realize what I was seeing.
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 5022
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:30 pm

LCP wrote:
MKeeney wrote:

"... The pattern of late-calving cows becoming perpetually late calving and subsequently not becoming pregnant is familiar to all of us...

I am apparently a poor manager because this is not something that is a given in my herd. It is very common for my early-calving cows or heifers to breed back late and calve late the next year, and almost as common for the late calving ones to breed early and calve a month sooner the next year. It's like a see-saw when you look at some of their calving intervals over the years. Yes there are some that are consistently late, but not too many. I've been told I need to increase the energy in my ration...which would probably mean corn or distillers or something. I'm not willing to spend more on feed or equipment (only feed round bales, no TMR here) so I'm figuring on calving a little later. So the take-home message for me is look at your own operation, don't take it for granted that the research applies directly to your ranch. I would be selling cows, and maybe heifers, that would do just fine in my setup if I followed their advice.

awww...always a good day when you can read the comments of a young man thinking for himself cheers ...he best think for himself, because no one else has money invested in their advice Smile
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
Grassfarmer



Posts : 912
Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:30 pm

I agree with your observations LCP - we get pretty much the same thing. We get less than 10% that calve third cycle and they very often calve in the first week of the following years calving season and have a higher proportion of twins. I'm sure my banked grass diet at calving time is to blame - not enough energy and the early calvers are on it for longer so it pulls them down in condition more. The few cows we have that calve in June are close enough to the fast growing grass that they breed back a month after calving. I've never had much luck with a heifer that calves 3rd cycle - they tend to be low fertility wasters but I have seen no difference in subsequent breed back between heifers calving in the first or second cycle.
Back to top Go down
http://www.luingcattle.com
Angus 62



Posts : 145
Join date : 2010-09-26

PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:04 pm

Saw the same twinning thing here when cows moved up considerably from prior years calving. Also saw more with Cysterelin injections to get cows to cycle for AI. Another bright idea that went to hell in practice.
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   

Back to top Go down
 
Knowing the cattle, knowing the data
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 3 of 4Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 Similar topics
-
» Knowing the cattle, knowing the data
» Citta -- The Mind's Essential Knowing Nature
» Dunlouise Scottish "Pure" Cattle
» Bid Data Sheet
» Tropical Cattle Production

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Keeney`s Corner :: Breeding Philosophies :: Breeding Philosophies-
Jump to: