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 Knowing the cattle, knowing the data

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df



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Join date : 2010-09-28

PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:52 pm

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
tmi....would you use a yearling Black Ink son given his sire`s HP?

He would not be near the top of my list.
...fertility must be very heritable then....You just contradicted yourself again Smile

No it is not and I have not as shown in my post with references (although I think it is higher than 0.10). As Rick Bourdan states progress can be made in traits low in heritability and they are so important that selection should be placed on them.

Why would you be willing to introduce a bull with this record in your herd?

because you said fertility was not highly heritable...

But I said it should not be ignored. Shocked
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:11 pm

MKeeney wrote:
side note? what are you going to do in TN? sing Rocky Top til they get a new football coach? Smile

TN is the #2 goat state. Maybe look at parasite resistance!
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:14 pm

Heifer pregnancy
<0.20 Evans et al., 1999
0.20 to ≤0.30 Doyle et al., 2000

Seems HP h2 is not low, according to Doyle.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:16 pm

Probability of pregnancy
<0.10 Koots et al., 1994
0.10 to ≤0.20 Evans et al., 1999
0.20 to ≤0.30 Snelling et al., 1995; Doyle et al., 1996, 2000
0.50 to ≤0.60 Eler et al., 2002

This might not be as low as we have been led to believe.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:19 pm

df wrote:
Probability of pregnancy
<0.10 Koots et al., 1994
0.10 to ≤0.20 Evans et al., 1999
0.20 to ≤0.30 Snelling et al., 1995; Doyle et al., 1996, 2000
0.50 to ≤0.60 Eler et al., 2002

This might not be as low as we have been led to believe.

there ya go...it may be that we select against fertility...Nichols would be a prime example...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:25 pm

we sure need a picture of Black Ink...I remember him as being a fat, infertile type
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:48 pm

Quote :
I contend there is some selection on other traits that may or may not be correlated to fertility.

df, what do you contend that these other traits are? And why?
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:01 pm

EddieM wrote:
Quote :
I contend there is some selection on other traits that may or may not be correlated to fertility.

df, what do you contend that these other traits are? And why?

One line of swine might be selected for number born alive, loin eye area and days to 230.

A second line might have be selected for loin eye area, backfat and days to 230.

The first line has selection for some traits that may not seem maternal, but the swine genetic company is still placing emphasis on them because they want to maintain the improvement they made in these areas. The second line may actually have a little selection placed on number born alive but the emphasis might be really small.

These lines may be crossed to make the market hogs.
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:31 pm

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:15 pm

thx Kent...pretty much as I remember...I can`t say I care for him much, but couldn`t condemn him without data Smile I wonder what led to the advertised claim of FERTILE?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:21 pm

Just saw this note from Dave in my email after I posted previous...

Mike,

Everyone seems to be unaware of embryonic death. I didn’t see one critic of Nichols explore that possibility. We spent a bunch of money determining that very thing a few years ago. Your blogers had better check out the latest Holstein revelations.

Egg on your face is not attractive. I ought to know, I’ve had plenty of on mine.

Dave
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:51 pm

there he goes again

If a cow's yearling heifer isn't better than her dam— it's my fault because I've done a lousy job of sire selection.

the one thing worth remembering from judging class is "how is it better"?
and I disagree about the sire selection...no matter what, some will be worse...simply the nature of the beast we call breeding..
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MVCatt



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PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:47 pm

Wow that was a close one...catastrophe was avoided thanks to the HP epd. It's scary to think that I could have one these bulls in my own pastures...but I guess I'll never know because I don't register cattle.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:11 am

MKeeney wrote:
thx Kent...pretty much as I remember...I can`t say I care for him much, but couldn`t condemn him without data Smile I wonder what led to the advertised claim of FERTILE?

As I recall this claim was based on the fact that Nichols bulls had huge testicles and often produced lots of semen per collection. The two bulls that seems to excel were GDAR Gold Nugget 766 and Nichols Super Systems at Tri-State.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:41 am

From nose to tail switch, where would Bonsma find the lack of daughter fertility in the Black Ink bull? From the picture or from other unseen external indicators?

df, I am not trying to be critical, but your hog lines and REA, BF, etc did not really tell me about any linked traits to fertility in COWS.

Eddie, in the vicinity of a bullseye on COWS that do not oink silent


Last edited by EddieM on Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:49 am

EddieM wrote:
From nose to tail switch, where would Bonsma find the lack of daughter fertility in the Blank Ink bull? From the picture or from other unseen external indicators?

df, I am not trying to be critical, but your hog lines and REA, BF, etc did not really tell me about any linked traits to fertility in COWS.

Eddie, in the vicinity of a bullseye on COWS that do not oink silent

Terminal traits and maternal traits are seldom seen in the same animal.

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:47 am

df wrote:
EddieM wrote:
From nose to tail switch, where would Bonsma find the lack of daughter fertility in the Blank Ink bull? From the picture or from other unseen external indicators?

df, I am not trying to be critical, but your hog lines and REA, BF, etc did not really tell me about any linked traits to fertility in COWS.

Eddie, in the vicinity of a bullseye on COWS that do not oink silent

Terminal traits and maternal traits are seldom seen in the same animal.


do you mean visibly seen, or genetically present?
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:51 am

MKeeney wrote:
Just saw this note from Dave in my email after I posted previous...

Mike,

Everyone seems to be unaware of embryonic death. I didn’t see one critic of Nichols explore that possibility. We spent a bunch of money determining that very thing a few years ago. Your blogers had better check out the latest Holstein revelations.

Egg on your face is not attractive. I ought to know, I’ve had plenty of on mine.

Dave


is embryonic death a fancy way to say aborted?

back in the early 80's dad let me use a maine anjou bull called Cunia. this was at a time when they would let a cow or two die before feeding hay as cattle were cheaper then hay. any who the maine anjou's would abort while the old angus cow would carry to full term. shortly there after I put the cows on a TMR problem solved. scratch scratch

would this be Nature vs. Nurture

larkota, in the vicinity of thinking back to highschool biology
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:21 pm

MKeeney wrote:
there he goes again

If a cow's yearling heifer isn't better than her dam— it's my fault because I've done a lousy job of sire selection.

the one thing worth remembering from judging class is "how is it better"?
and I disagree about the sire selection...no matter what, some will be worse...simply the nature of the beast we call breeding..

the wonderful thing about this version of population genetics is the selling vehicle it creates...the cattle are always better, so you always need the latest version to be current; and the seller can maintain price...and I suppose some are better; and some are worse; and you won`t know which is which until you progeny test...culling the milk is nt a problem so long as the cream holds it`s value...I`m just happy to have lived long enough and gotten wise enough to be happy with being bored by simplicity...
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moemantha



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PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:30 pm

at what point is it decided enough is enough and multiply and make more of what is deemed efficient? I would think that little strokes all along would be much better, but wonder if the cattle would ever become exactly the way a person wants them to be. Progeny testing alone should indicate the shortfalls or benefits of the cattle, until tested how do we know.
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PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:48 pm

moemantha wrote:
at what point is it decided enough is enough and multiply and make more of what is deemed efficient? I would think that little strokes all along would be much better, but wonder if the cattle would ever become exactly the way a person wants them to be. Progeny testing alone should indicate the shortfalls or benefits of the cattle, until tested how do we know.

Never you must keep the merry go round moving as fast as you can, Or the con will not work. Laughing Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:16 pm

I just always wanted more better ones. I never seemed to get more better ones. Currently I want more good enough ones. Or if the glass is half empty, just less bad ones. Less bad is still good, isn't it?

Bootheel
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PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:44 pm

I have found that when you find what is good enough. You minimize what is great and poor.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:26 pm

That's when I knew animal breeding was evolving from an art to a science.

man must measure sure sounds like a scientist...

wonder if science will ever prevail over art to the point that breeders will stop bobing the tails of their et cows and just let them look like a cow instead of a damn show jock job? gesshhh...

If you doubt that first service conception rate in heifers are not a predictor of lifetime fertility, in all breeds, in all countries -- open this link at you own peril.

science most always quantifies common sense... if I was such a believer of this, why not a 21 calving season on heifers? why not, df?
http://www.holsteinusa.com/pdf/haplotype_details.pdf

3 of 80 heifers sired by my bulls bred to my bulls were open last spring...I must be haplotype free Very Happy



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PostSubject: Re: Knowing the cattle, knowing the data   Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:56 pm

I am having trouble seeing the impact of this most Holstein cows have only two calves in there lifetime?










Within the available bull population in July 2011, 1,349 bulls were coded as Active, Foreign, Genomic or Limited, meaning semen is available for sale. Of these bulls, 195 are a carrier for one of these haplotypes impacting fertility and one bull has two of them. The probability of a bull having at least one of these haplotypes is 14.45%; or individually, 5.0% for HH1, 4.1% for HH2 and 5.5% for HH3. Despite the relatively high probability of an animal being a carrier for one of the haplotypes, the probability of mating two carrier animals carrying the SAME haplotype impacting fertility is very low. For example, the probability of mating two HH1C animals is 2.5 times out of 1,000.






As mentioned above, these haplotypes impacting fertility are inherited completely independent of one another. Because the frequency of any one haplotype is low, many potential mates without the same haplotype exist in the Holstein population. Animals with high genetic value that are carrier of a haplotype impacting fertility should still be kept for breeding purposes; breeders should work to ensure she is not mated with a carrier bull. In the instances of carrier-by-carrier matings, we do see a significant reduction in conception rate. The combination of all carrier-by-carrier matings amongst the three haplotypes impacting fertility occurs only 0.7% of the time, or 7 out of a 1,000 times.

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