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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: wall hangers   Mon May 05, 2014 8:25 am

the best constructed bridges meet in the middle...
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: wall hangers   Mon May 05, 2014 9:06 pm

"It doesn't matter how long it takes. The only thing that matters is if you get there, or not"

- Deacon, age 6
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: wall hangers   Fri May 09, 2014 2:36 am

Tom D wrote:
"It doesn't matter how long it takes. The only thing that matters is if you get there, or not"

- Deacon, age 6

if you really want boys to leave you alone, just kick`em in the nuts...

Jennifer Lopez, age 9, third grade, confiding to grandma Linda while mimicking  a boy`s face and bent over boy`s body who just got kicked in the nuts

and here we thought our kids weren`t learning anything in school  Very Happy
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: wall hangers   Wed May 14, 2014 10:43 am

Eddie, you have a way of turning a phrase and I think this is spot-on! cheers

"...most registered breeders who want to be more important than their cattle are useful..."  
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: wall hangers   Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:17 pm

"A known captivity is more comfortable that an unknown freedom."
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: wall hangers   Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:09 am

EddieM wrote:
"A known captivity is more comfortable that an unknown freedom."

Eddie, I believe there`s a lot of unknown captivity as well...or maybe a reluctance to admit captivity...

http://www.theemotionmachine.com/5-signs-youre-a-slave-to-your-emotions

number 4 sure would appear to get me ..let`s see, it`s 1.04 am ...but my foot is hurting; as well as my ego..37 on the front nine  cheers ; 47 on the back  Twisted Evil 
number 2 would seem to apply to those who are always editing posts ...
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: wall hangers   Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:16 am

MKeeney wrote:
EddieM wrote:
"A known captivity is more comfortable that an unknown freedom."

Eddie, I believe there`s a lot of unknown captivity as well...or maybe a reluctance to admit captivity...

http://www.theemotionmachine.com/5-signs-youre-a-slave-to-your-emotions

number 4 sure would appear to get me ..let`s see, it`s 1.04 am ...but my foot is hurting; as well as my ego..37 on the front nine  cheers ; 47 on the back  Twisted Evil 
number 2 would seem to apply to those who are always editing posts ...

I failed all 5. That means that I cannot second that emotion. No wonder I am dull.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: wall hangers   Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:14 pm

Not extreme for any numbers but he is put together just right.

A cornerstone bull here at least
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: wall hangers   Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:05 pm



mk
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76 Bar



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PostSubject: Re: wall hangers   Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:49 pm

MKeeney wrote:
mk

Thank you for a very special & memorable birthday present. This ain't no wall hanger, its a desk top pic and embedded in my mind.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: wall hangers   Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:57 pm

Happy Birthday 76...I`m not sure who took this pic in 2011, but it captures the essence of the man. The Wye cap {I never saw Larry in a "Shoshone" cap; not his nature} is symbolic to me as well; Wye moved beyond Angus; Shoshone moved beyond Wye; will someone move beyond Shoshone? I won`t be around to ever know; but at least as of today, it`s encouraging to know some are having a go at it...
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: wall hangers   Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:33 am

"... not an extension of one's ego"

A spot-on refusal to fall into the cause of a majority of the problems in the livestock and animal industry.
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76 Bar



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PostSubject: Re: wall hangers   Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:13 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Happy Birthday 76...I`m not sure who took this pic in 2011, but it captures the essence of the man. The Wye cap {I never saw Larry in a "Shoshone" cap; not his nature} is symbolic to me as well; Wye moved beyond Angus; Shoshone moved beyond Wye; will someone move beyond Shoshone? I won`t be around to ever know; but at least as of today, it`s encouraging to know some are having a go at it...
Thank you.
I suspect there's quite a few who've never heard of Larry but nonetheless have remarkably similar philosophies. Like many a good working dog, they're quietly doing "their thing" sans fanfare and BS.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: wall hangers   Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:57 pm

Larry and I were getting back to the house at Red Lodge about 1 am after a day long trek across the Big Horns to Rod`s; then a stop near Hardin at Bileau`s...he was driving; puffing away; wide-awake...I was half- asleep; he might as well been talking to himself; and maybe he was ...but as we came up the bench; I roused up a bit...he had that same look as in that pic; and I will always remember him saying "Mike, you don`t get much done breeding cattle in a lifetime"
so some players waste their money chasing to and fro, not a big deal... but the greatest loss to a breeder is time...in our next to last conversation, Larry switched the subject from his cancer to cattle breeding and his trip through the cattle a day or two previous; selling a young man 5 two year olds; all with heifer calves at side...Larry commented that he thought there was enough vigor and variation in the Shoshone herd to last a 100 years...so I ask these registered guys jumping from this herd to that herd for breeding stock...you planning on living 200 years?  Shocked Smile why sort someone else's cattle when it is challenge enough to sort your own?
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: wall hangers   Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:24 pm

"Larry commented that he thought there was enough vigor and variation in the Shoshone herd to last a 100 years ...so I ask these registered guys jumping from this herd to that herd for breeding stock...you planning on living 200 years? "

Does this answer have anything to do with the number of animals in the Shoshone herd vs. a buyer who buys 5 or 10 from the herd, or any herd? Surely the number of foundation animals play into it.

Or does the buyer (and the purchased cattle) live in an environment where the cattle struggle with the new place, new forages, new weather, ...? Just asking because folks around here used to buy Graham cows from south GA and there were quite a few that could not adjust to the piedmont of SC.

"why sort someone else's cattle when it is challenge enough to sort your own?"

Still guessing a bit but if the new owner is not interested in riding coattails and using the source herd prefix the cattle become "own cattle"? I do not think that buying a bull from Red Hill Ranch means that the new owner can say that he is raising Red Hill cattle. He just bought a snippet in time in the new bull with a fraction of genes from the Ranch that will mix in an unknown way with the cows on the farm.

Or maybe the cattle do not fit the new environment or the new owner had the wrong expectations.

Some open ended questions for a good thinking exercise.
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: wall hangers   Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:47 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Larry and I were getting back to the house at Red Lodge about 1 am after a day long trek across the Big Horns to Rod`s; then a stop near Hardin at Bileau`s...he was driving; puffing away; wide-awake...I was half- asleep; he might as well been talking to himself; and maybe he was ...but as we came up the bench; I roused up a bit...he had that same look as in that pic; and I will always remember him saying "Mike, you don`t get much done breeding cattle in a lifetime"
so some players waste their money chasing to and fro, not a big deal... but the greatest loss to a breeder is time...in our next to last conversation, Larry switched the subject from his cancer to cattle breeding and his trip through the cattle a day or two previous; selling a young man 5 two year olds; all with heifer calves at side...Larry commented that he thought there was enough vigor and variation in the Shoshone herd to last a 100 years...so I ask these registered guys jumping from this herd to that herd for breeding stock...you planning on living 200 years?  Shocked Smile why sort someone else's cattle when it is challenge enough to sort your own?

A lot said in that post.

As long as someone is buying breeding stock from different herds(that includes semen for those that think like Big Jim), he is sorting someone else's cattle. When the herd is closed, you start down the road of sorting your own cattle, but that is several generations later. After 10+ years closed herd, I still feel like I'm sorting someone else's cattle...but getting closer.

I guess time is why most don't go down this road.
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: wall hangers   Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:04 am

it is so liberating for me to no longer feel any need whatsoever to be meticulous...I think that is surely a sign of cattle breeding accomplishment rather than just not giving a damn anymore  Cool   ; I remember one year asking Larry what those two older bulls were standing in the bull pen...
aww hell, we sent 14 {of 200} unsold, culled by our customers,  bulls to the yards...told MikeL to pick out two to keep around in case we needed them Smile Smile Smile
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: wall hangers   Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:19 pm

I love fools' experiments. I am always making them.

Charles Darwin

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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: wall hangers   Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:33 am

...do we have auctions because we don`t know the value of our stock; or because we don`t know how much buyers might pay?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: wall hangers   Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:38 am

larkota wrote:
...do we have auctions because we don`t know the value of our stock; or because we don`t know how much buyers might pay?

Briann,
I think you should have sold the 100 cows at auction; used the big time sale manager; but contrary to his advice; not registered any of the cattle...wouldn`t it be fun to attend an auction where the sale is based on the genetic goals of the program rather than individual differences ? one footnote would suffice for all the cattle? one pedigree? what would a sale manager say? is the genetic value greater when you use a sale manager? Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Very Happy

apologies for stealing his stuff and thx in advance to JD; not sure enough have read this thoughtful piece...

http://www.jadangus.com/2014/09/11/do-the-shoshones-make-the-best-cows/



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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: wall hangers   Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:27 am




In most cases, herd mentality is discussed in terms of involuntary actions. Researchers generally believe that people and animals alike tend follow crowds without stopping to think or even realizing what they are doing. Outliers are often either left behind or targeted by predators.

copied from somewhere
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: wall hangers   Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:00 pm

"I am not familiar with the term, "True Breeder". If you mean line breeding, we are not, and purposely so.

There is a random element to genetics, undeniably. The best bull can be bred to the best cow, and produce a poor/mediocre calf, and a mediocre bull and mediocre cow, can produce an outlier calf. The probabilities are with the best bull and best cow, but less than certain.

If I were charged with producing next years lot 1 bull, I would select our best bull and best cows, and they may or may not produce lot 1. The offspring would most certainly be good, but may not be the best. This is sorting, which has a roll in breeding.

Evidence of genetic make up, is what is on the outside, i.e., growth, early maturity, phenotype, masculinity, fleshing, etc., as judged against a large peer group, under identical management.

Pharo and Pinebank are identical in their end goal, i.e., producing highly productive, problem free, protein, in a low input grass production model, with production per acre as the measure. The cattle are similar in phenotype.

Pinebank selects the best yearling bulls to roll back on the cow herd, and the following year replaces all bulls with the new yearling crop, speeding generational turnover with the bulls, effectively speeding the evolutionary process. They produce and use great bulls, but a game changing bull might come along every 10 years, out of their several herds. They are 50+ years into their program. Every problem is culled every year, regardless of genetics.

Pharo has 27+/- cooperator herds, which I would guess represent 4000+ cows. The top 1/2 to 1/3 of bulls are kept in tact, managed identically, culled harshly, carefully evaluated, measured every way, and sold as yearlings and 18 mo. olds.

Our breeding program includes some of the best bulls raised here, some of the very top Pharo bulls, and the best Pinebank genetics, raised for 1 purpose: high, problem free, production, in a production per acre model. Rolling the best genes from large peer groups, into the genetic pool (the cow herd), year after year, is a breeding program."
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: wall hangers   Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:23 am

"Like Gavin, we both began about 1965,  both have had our share of problems to overcome, both claim to have just begun our separate and distinctly different 120 year objectives, two closed populations from opposite sides of the world practicing population genetics,  both going in somewhat opposite directions, that perhaps could hold some promise of enhancing one another in improving beef production efficiencies with sustainability as one small segment of the TruLine concept....is it the beginning of wishful thinking or not ....is it the beginning of a brighter future or not?   It matters naught whether we're here or gone, we would do it all over again.....as Gavin says, its been quite a journey,  how lucky can we get."

LL 2012
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: wall hangers   Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:36 pm

"We do keep bulls produced here. In addition we select the very top Pharo bulls for use here, and Pinebank. Why use three sources? The bigger the peer group(s), from which we are selecting top bulls, the better."


"Evidence of genetic make up, is what is on the outside, i.e., growth, early maturity, phenotype, masculinity, fleshing, etc., as judged against a large peer group, under identical management."

"Pharo has 27+/- cooperator herds, which I would guess represent 4000+ cows. The top 1/2 to 1/3 of bulls are kept in tact, managed identically, culled harshly, carefully evaluated, measured every way, and sold as yearlings and 18 mo. olds."

Disconnect.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: wall hangers   Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:21 pm

I see now why you put these quotes on the wall Eddie...so you could punch well-deserved holes in them with darts Smile
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