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MKeeney
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PostSubject: cow family   Sat May 05, 2012 11:35 am

Pat`s mention of cow family drew my attention; perhaps my ire....
what`s your definition of a cow family and what is it`s breeding significance?
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: cow family   Sat May 05, 2012 12:31 pm

I have never figured out the productive or genetic significance of having all of the cows named for a cow that came over on the Mayflower while all of the males used over the generations came from every other crook and cranney. The way I would the term would be in the case that the original female is the object of linebreeding. So, she would be bred to her sons, grandsons, etc to establish a line. Most of the time it is a feel good term like the catalog writer can assure more than he really can.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: cow family   Sat May 05, 2012 7:42 pm

I use the the term cow family loosely in referring to the origianl cows we purchased and all the female since descended from original cow.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: cow family   Sat May 05, 2012 9:08 pm

PatB wrote:
I use the the term cow family loosely in referring to the origianl cows we purchased and all the female since descended from original cow.
I think that`s the typical use Pat...and I think it is a terrible abuse of terminology; often used as selling BS; though not on your part...but your mention of cow families you had left sparked the topic...I know there are cows that can withstand terrible abusive matings, and yet still more dominantly influence progeny than others...but I think it`s cows, not families that can sometimes do that...
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: cow family   Sun May 06, 2012 6:42 am

MKeeney wrote:
PatB wrote:
I use the the term cow family loosely in referring to the origianl cows we purchased and all the female since descended from original cow.
I think that`s the typical use Pat...and I think it is a terrible abuse of terminology; often used as selling BS; though not on your part...but your mention of cow families you had left sparked the topic...I know there are cows that can withstand terrible abusive matings, and yet still more dominantly influence progeny than others...but I think it`s cows, not families that can sometimes do that...

The cow families we have left and their descendants have withstood some very stupid mating selections on my part.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: cow family   Sun May 06, 2012 6:52 am

PatB wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
PatB wrote:
I use the the term cow family loosely in referring to the origianl cows we purchased and all the female since descended from original cow.
I think that`s the typical use Pat...and I think it is a terrible abuse of terminology; often used as selling BS; though not on your part...but your mention of cow families you had left sparked the topic...I know there are cows that can withstand terrible abusive matings, and yet still more dominantly influence progeny than others...but I think it`s cows, not families that can sometimes do that...

The cow families we have left and their descendants have withstood some very stupid mating selections on my part.

why not mate them to themselves now and see if they can withstand that?
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: cow family   Sun May 06, 2012 6:58 am

This years calf crop is sired by home raised bulls. Th majority of the calf crop all but several calfs is sired by one bull. His sons will be used in conjunction with AI next season.
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PostSubject: Re: cow family   Wed May 09, 2012 8:56 am

I gotta tell you until someone proves me wrong I'm still a pretty big believer in cow families. We started in 1987 with 3 cows and have been in a constant state of growth every since then to today with around 300 cows. We bought cows as we could afford them and consequently ended up with cows from just about everyone and any number of cow families. We have also kept most all of our heifers over the years until they were atleast 4 yr olds and it is very interesting what stays and what doesn't. We have 70 producing cows that go back to two different Juanada 7 bred cows and about 20 cows that go back to a Viking GD60 bred cow. LIke you said MK they have withstood some terrible abusive matings but they still seem to proliferate. They are not super cows by any stretch. I would call them problem free cows and that is why I believe they have been so sucsessful here but cow families just the same. We are now breeding them back to themselves and so far so good but time will tell.

Jack
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: cow family   Fri May 11, 2012 7:20 am

Jack McNamee wrote:
I gotta tell you until someone proves me wrong I'm still a pretty big believer in cow families. We started in 1987 with 3 cows and have been in a constant state of growth every since then to today with around 300 cows. We bought cows as we could afford them and consequently ended up with cows from just about everyone and any number of cow families. We have also kept most all of our heifers over the years until they were atleast 4 yr olds and it is very interesting what stays and what doesn't. We have 70 producing cows that go back to two different Juanada 7 bred cows and about 20 cows that go back to a Viking GD60 bred cow. LIke you said MK they have withstood some terrible abusive matings but they still seem to proliferate. They are not super cows by any stretch. I would call them problem free cows and that is why I believe they have been so sucsessful here but cow families just the same. We are now breeding them back to themselves and so far so good but time will tell.
Jack

and then they become a line I do believe?

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PostSubject: Re: cow family   Fri May 11, 2012 10:10 am

MKeeney wrote:
Jack McNamee wrote:
I gotta tell you until someone proves me wrong I'm still a pretty big believer in cow families. We started in 1987 with 3 cows and have been in a constant state of growth every since then to today with around 300 cows. We bought cows as we could afford them and consequently ended up with cows from just about everyone and any number of cow families. We have also kept most all of our heifers over the years until they were atleast 4 yr olds and it is very interesting what stays and what doesn't. We have 70 producing cows that go back to two different Juanada 7 bred cows and about 20 cows that go back to a Viking GD60 bred cow. LIke you said MK they have withstood some terrible abusive matings but they still seem to proliferate. They are not super cows by any stretch. I would call them problem free cows and that is why I believe they have been so sucsessful here but cow families just the same. We are now breeding them back to themselves and so far so good but time will tell.
Jack

and then they become a line I do believe?


Or a cow family line. Wink
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: cow family   Sun May 13, 2012 7:21 am

Jack, why are you breeding them back to themselves? What do you hope to find out? Just wondering. My cowherd is built on cow families. I always thought the bull sired a line. Splitting hairs maybe?
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PostSubject: Re: cow family   Sun May 13, 2012 7:59 am

Will wrote:
Jack, why are you breeding them back to themselves? What do you hope to find out? Just wondering. My cowherd is built on cow families. I always thought the bull sired a line. Splitting hairs maybe?
while waiting for Jack`s input, and he can agree or disagree...bulls sire terminal lines, and cows make maternal lines, the maternal bull a mere gene carrier of a cow line to the next generation...if we could, we would breed cows to cows to make the best cows...
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: cow family   Sun May 13, 2012 7:10 pm

I bet if you could breed a cow with a cow it would not be hard sided! Shocked What next?
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PostSubject: Re: cow family   Sun May 13, 2012 8:01 pm

Will wrote:
Jack, why are you breeding them back to themselves? What do you hope to find out? Just wondering. My cowherd is built on cow families. I always thought the bull sired a line. Splitting hairs maybe?

Stabilization of my type and to offer a more prepotent bull to my customers. I said pure before and that is a poor choice of words. My cattle are pure, I'm just not sure, pure what. Prepotent is a much better word that I was trying to find but until I read more of LL I couldn't come up with it. I'm not in competion with my customers. I don't have to raise a bigger calf than they do. I want to provide a more prepotent bull so they can raise the best calf they can raise under their management conditions. Best being defined by them, not me. I'm not looking to find out anything really by inbreeding. I know things could show up but I'm not line or inbreeding anything someone else hasn't already bred before.

Jack, just a parts store manager.
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: cow family   Sun May 13, 2012 8:25 pm

Jack McNamee wrote:
Will wrote:
Jack, why are you breeding them back to themselves? What do you hope to find out? Just wondering. My cowherd is built on cow families. I always thought the bull sired a line. Splitting hairs maybe?

Stabilization of my type and to offer a more prepotent bull to my customers. I said pure before and that is a poor choice of words. My cattle are pure, I'm just not sure, pure what. Prepotent is a much better word that I was trying to find but until I read more of LL I couldn't come up with it. I'm not in competion with my customers. I don't have to raise a bigger calf than they do. I want to provide a more prepotent bull so they can raise the best calf they can raise under their management conditions. Best being defined by them, not me. I'm not looking to find out anything really by inbreeding. I know things could show up but I'm not line or inbreeding anything someone else hasn't already bred before.

Jack, just a parts store manager.

Jack not a parts store, but one of many main ingredients to give the commercial indusrty parent stock. I dont think you are trying to fix as much as you are helping to build a new machine.
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: cow family   Mon May 14, 2012 7:07 am

Thanks Jack. I have to think about your answer a bit.
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PostSubject: Re: cow family   Mon May 14, 2012 12:07 pm

The purpose of a purebred is to offer more predictability or continuity generation after generation. LL

I'm not able to articulate as well as Larry so I'll just plagiarize him. Sorry Larry. This sums up what I believe a seedstock producer should be breeding.

Thanks Larry, Jack
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: cow family   Tue May 15, 2012 11:08 pm

Jack, I think I understand, but what if the long time customer has the same bloodlines in his cowherd as you have in your prepotent bull. Would the bull still be prepotent? Are you making more than one line? You appear to be doing what I gave some thought to do. Not going to do it though. Not a lot of experience with inbreeding but we are using a purebred Angus linebred Bushwacker sire. A Bushwacker mother, sired by a Bushwacker son. Total outcross to our herd. Used on the soggiest Gelbvieh-Angus cows we have he is outstanding. Here is the problem, he sired a hiefer calf out of a Sim-Angus F1 cow that was a complete dink. I mean a complete dink. Did bring over $900 when we sold her a couple weeks ago. Mother is in the bottom half of the herd but has never had a calf that bad. Does inbreeding cause this?
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PostSubject: Re: cow family   Tue May 15, 2012 11:18 pm

Will wrote:
Jack, I think I understand, but what if the long time customer has the same bloodlines in his cowherd as you have in your prepotent bull. Would the bull still be prepotent? Are you making more than one line? You appear to be doing what I gave some thought to do. Not going to do it though. Not a lot of experience with inbreeding but we are using a purebred Angus linebred Bushwacker sire. A Bushwacker mother, sired by a Bushwacker son. Total outcross to our herd. Used on the soggiest Gelbvieh-Angus cows we have he is outstanding. Here is the problem, he sired a hiefer calf out of a Sim-Angus F1 cow that was a complete dink. I mean a complete dink. Did bring over $900 when we sold her a couple weeks ago. Mother is in the bottom half of the herd but has never had a calf that bad. Does inbreeding cause this?

Will , by all means blame inbreeding . I'm sure NOTHING ELSE you stated above would have contributed towards your dink . Did you puke ? Jon
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PostSubject: Re: cow family   Wed May 16, 2012 12:33 am

Will wrote:
Jack, I think I understand, but what if the long time customer has the same bloodlines in his cowherd as you have in your prepotent bull. Would the bull still be prepotent? No and at that point my customer either needs to change lines from my herd or go buy bulls somewhere else for a while. Are you making more than one line? Yes we are working with three to four different lines that are all similar in type. You appear to be doing what I gave some thought to do. Not going to do it though. Not a lot of experience with inbreeding but we are using a purebred Angus linebred Bushwacker sire. A Bushwacker mother, sired by a Bushwacker son. Total outcross to our herd. Used on the soggiest Gelbvieh-Angus cows we have he is outstanding. Here is the problem, he sired a hiefer calf out of a Sim-Angus F1 cow that was a complete dink. I mean a complete dink. Did bring over $900 when we sold her a couple weeks ago. Mother is in the bottom half of the herd but has never had a calf that bad. Does inbreeding cause this? Not in my opinion. That's kinda like backing into a buzz saw and then tryin to figure out which tooth got you. It could've been just about anything but it wasn't the inbreeding of the bull. The fact that he was a half sib mating is what made him outstanding (heterosis) and if the bull would have been the product of a mother-son mating or sire-daughter mating the calves would have been even better in my mind. How much more could you have offered your customers if you would have offered that cross to them?

I'm not tryin to blow smoke Will. I'm no where near where I want to be in my herd so that I can offer a more prepotent bull but that's what I'm working toward. I won't live long enough to get where I would like to get but just like an ant eats an elephant (one bite at a time) I'm working on it.

Jack
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: cow family   Wed May 16, 2012 7:38 am

Thanks Jack, Glad to hear you are working on three or four different lines that are similar in type. Only way to go and only way to keep your customers happy. I was going to have four different lines of hybrids for that same reason. Gelbvieh with Angus mostly 2100, Sim-Angus with angus mostly Future Direction 5321, Lim-Angus with angus New Trend 315 and an undecided fourth with the Angus Traveler. Genetic defects got in the way though with Future Direction 5321. Up to this point I am amazed at how consistent my cattle are. The line bred Bushwacker is not outstanding. He is very maternal. Breeder said keep all the daughters and I agree at this point they look very maternal. He sires outstanding progeny except for the dink. The dink looked and grew like a dairy cross. The grandmother, a purebred Angus, more than likely had some holstien snuck in some where. I will have to lookup her registration number and post it. Respect and agree with what you are doing. Most people only develop one line.
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PostSubject: Re: cow family   Wed May 16, 2012 9:14 am

Will wrote:
Jack, I think I understand, but what if the long time customer has the same bloodlines in his cowherd as you have in your prepotent bull. Would the bull still be prepotent? Are you making more than one line? You appear to be doing what I gave some thought to do. Not going to do it though. Not a lot of experience with inbreeding but we are using a purebred Angus linebred Bushwacker sire. A Bushwacker mother, sired by a Bushwacker son. Total outcross to our herd. Used on the soggiest Gelbvieh-Angus cows we have he is outstanding. Here is the problem, he sired a hiefer calf out of a Sim-Angus F1 cow that was a complete dink. I mean a complete dink. Did bring over $900 when we sold her a couple weeks ago. Mother is in the bottom half of the herd but has never had a calf that bad. Does inbreeding cause this?

Destabilization of the parent stock is where I would blame the dink on first Will and the more crossed up the parent stock is, the more calves you will see like this is my thinking. If the angus in the sim-angus cow had some Holstein in her, would that not make her a hybrid? You see where I'm going with this.

Jack
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PostSubject: Re: cow family   Wed May 16, 2012 10:10 am

Will remember the three ears of corn? You don't always get the pretty one in the center? Remember the faster you go the easier it is to hit the wall?
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: cow family   Wed May 16, 2012 10:26 pm

Jack I do not agree with you. I do not get dinks like that. The throwaways I get are the opposite of dinks. Growth curve is to long. Two maybe three hiefers every year are to late maturing. Grow to long and would get to big as cows if I fed them enough. Easy to see at 10, 11 or 12 months. I just pound them out and they really bring in the dollars. My throwaways are the opposite of dinks. This was a dink in my herd but maybe it would not be a dink in someone elses herd. She brought $925.66 on May 2, 2012. Jack do you get any dinks when you inbreed? One other thing I put a F1 Sim-Angus daughter from the mother to the dink with the line bred Bushwacker bull and she had a good bull in the sale. Lot 7. The mother R103 always has a keeper.
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: cow family   Wed May 16, 2012 10:27 pm

Also do not want holstien in my hybrids. Yikes I hope Aladar does not read this.
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