Keeney`s Corner

A current and reflective discussion of cattle breeding from outside the registered mainstream
 
HomeUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 Another new guy

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 10, 11, 12  Next
AuthorMessage
Kent Powell



Posts : 606
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:01 pm

Will wrote:
I have no idea why Canadian cattle are bigger, but they are. Simmy bulls coming into the US that I would never consider using. To much of everything for my and my customers enviroment. The calf pictured second from bottom would really get hammered in my area. Looks like a dairy cross. Do you get carcass information? When were the calves born and what time of the year was it when the pictures were taken? Was the nice level land farmed previously?



What good is data when visual appraisal is first and foremost in buying decisions at any given weight?
Back to top Go down
http://powellangus.com
Bob H



Posts : 371
Join date : 2011-02-17
Location : SW Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:23 pm

What is a correctly designed Hybred ? Bob H
Back to top Go down
Hilly



Posts : 406
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : Sylvan Lake, Alberta

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:47 pm

They are March/April calves, pictures were taken middle of September, I don’t get docked for the color in fact the buyers are starting to prefer the color as every type of cattle under the sun are black now days.

I use polled fleck bulls on cows that tend to horns and the horned Fleck on the polled cattle.

I moved away from the Fleck 10 years ago for the black polled deal of the inflated gene pool of the purebred Simmental as they were swimming over to the side of the pool previously occupied by the Angus.

If you forget about what the names of the breeds your crossing are , and if papers and EPD’s disappeared tomorrow what exactly are you crossing type wise and why.

ShearForce type crossed on my cows did not compete as well in the profit department when compared to the fleck calves so I went back.

Your composite bulls calves would most likely perform closer to these calves from my maternal herd taken the same day same age.






Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:22 pm

Will wrote:
Bob H what makes you think hybrids are not consistent? Ever use a correctly designed hybrid?
I`ve heard of intelligent design; but never correct design...my Simm-Angus were of convenient design Very Happy
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
Grassfarmer



Posts : 850
Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:36 pm

Bob H wrote:
What is a correctly designed Hybred ? Bob H

One that's designed by a wise guy? Smile
Back to top Go down
http://www.luingcattle.com
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:47 pm

I`m betting correct design is crossing a simmental that looks and acts like an Angus; with an Angus that looks and acts like a Simmental...
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
Will



Posts : 220
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:40 pm

MK, no no no a correctly designed hybrid is the exact opposite of the Sim-Angus you tried to sell or maybe sold. Not sure if you sold them or not.
Back to top Go down
Will



Posts : 220
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:47 pm

Hilly, you really have great grass especially for september. Good cattle too. My program is maternal first with carcass a close second and then performance. I have a lot of customers that calf out and need bulls that calf right. To much performance means to much birthweight and to big of cows in my opinion. Shear Force and 3C Wally are studs in my program.
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:07 pm

Will wrote:
Hilly, you really have great grass especially for september. Good cattle too. My program is maternal first with carcass a close second and then performance. I have a lot of customers that calf out and need bulls that calf right. To much performance means to much birthweight and to big of cows in my opinion. Shear Force and 3C Wally are studs in my program.
Will, why use Angus in your "hybird"? what do they contribute?
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
Bob H



Posts : 371
Join date : 2011-02-17
Location : SW Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:15 pm


Maybe I asked the question wrong I would like to know what to do with an f1 cross other than make them terminal. Bob H
Back to top Go down
Will



Posts : 220
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:24 am

I use the right Angus for several reasons. Note I said RIGHT! Homozygous black and Homozygous polled. Marbling and mothering abiity. Easy to market. Just a few reasons. The mainstream Angus right now are not my type of Angus.
Back to top Go down
Will



Posts : 220
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:33 am

Bob H. Take the right F1 hybrid and breed it to the same F1 hybrid and make a F2. Take the F2 Hybrid and breed it to the same F1 or F2 Hybrid and make a F3. Pretty soon you will have a new super breed. You will give up maternal heterosis for yourself but develop two or three Hybrid lines so your bull customers can out cross between your hybrid lines to get as close to max maternal heterosis as possible. Might have to think outside the box a bit but I can't seem to ever find the box. Do you raise bulls?
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:46 am

Will wrote:
Bob H. Take the right F1 hybrid and breed it to the same F1 hybrid and make a F2. Take the F2 Hybrid and breed it to the same F1 or F2 Hybrid and make a F3. Pretty soon you will have a new super breed. You will give up maternal heterosis for yourself but develop two or three Hybrid lines so your bull customers can out cross between your hybrid lines to get as close to max maternal heterosis as possible. Might have to think outside the box a bit but I can't seem to ever find the box. Do you raise bulls?
the only thing pure in that scenario full of genetic impossibilities is the bullshit...
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
Will



Posts : 220
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:26 am

Really?
Back to top Go down
Hilly



Posts : 406
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : Sylvan Lake, Alberta

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:13 am

Will,

Wally cattle were useful here, a little more attitude...

How many Super Duper, Extreme Top Crust types are there? In the bull catalogue you posted a link to, it states that “We run a completely closed herd” does that mean you are closed to all outside genetics?

I have no problems believing you are competing well in the customer satisfaction department, but the mainstream bar has been set embarrassingly low.

When I look at the type your bulls are, a breeder up here comes to mind and they have all the carcass data as well.

http://www.lazysranch.ca/index.htm
Back to top Go down
Bob H



Posts : 371
Join date : 2011-02-17
Location : SW Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:26 am

Mike I thought that was what I was reading. Bob H
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:51 am

Will wrote:
Bob H. Take the right F1 hybrid and breed it to the same F1 hybrid and make a F2. Take the F2 Hybrid and breed it to the same F1 or F2 Hybrid and make a F3. Pretty soon you will have a new super breed. You will give up maternal heterosis for yourself but develop two or three Hybrid lines so your bull customers can out cross between your hybrid lines to get as close to max maternal heterosis as possible. Might have to think outside the box a bit but I can't seem to ever find the box. Do you raise bulls?

A new super breed of what and to what value to the buyers of your bulls? You say think outside the box but this paragraph is the box. This is the exact recipe for 90% of the mainstream angus cattle out there that you don't like. We don't need more Braunviehs, Balancers, Brangus, etc. We need more pure parts to provide to our customers to benifit from the heterosis of the F1. Not some watered down F2 or F3. Thats outside the box.

Jack
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:43 am

http://www.cattle-today.com.hybridmaster.php

If that doesn't get you there try www.askthemeatman.com/cattle_breeds.htm scroll down through all the breeds and click on Hybridmasters.

Jack, enjoyin the rain and tryin to clean up this messy house before my bride gets home.

Back to top Go down
Will



Posts : 220
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:57 pm

Jack, could you explain how you are providing more pure parts to your customers to benefit from the heterosis of the F1?
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:50 pm

Will wrote:
Jack, could you explain how you are providing more pure parts to your customers to benefit from the heterosis of the F1?

Glad to. I provide an Angus animal for them. I've been providing an Angus animal to them for several years. That's my parts. If they want heterosis they can go buy a Gelbvieh or Simmental or Hereford part somewhere else, cross those two animals and be the benefactors of all the heterosis of the F1 cross. If they buy your bulls they are the benefactors of the F2 or F3 cross and the heterosis is no where near what it is with the F1's. It seems to me that we as seedstock producers have gotten to be in competition with our customers. In order to impress our customers our calves have to be as big as they hope their calves will be and so to do that the seedstock industry has had to cross their cattle up to achieve that. Anyone who wants to wean 600 lb calves has to buy bulls from a provider that weaned 650 bulls and I just don't believe that is the best way. Do your bulls provide some heterosis to a straight angus cow herd? I'm sure they do to some degree but wouldn't they provide more if you sold them a pure bred Gelbvieh and they raised the half blood? Are my parts as pure as I want them to be? No, not yet, but I'm working in that direction. I'm not knocking your cattle, I just don't agree with your philosophy and I certainly don't think it's outside the box. Quite the opposite. What I'd like to see and what I veiw as outside the box thinking is, my customers who are looking for heterosis come to you and buy a purebred that makes you want to puke, than they have calves that look like your bulls look now.

Jack, a parts provider.
Back to top Go down
Will



Posts : 220
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:33 pm

Jack, do not have a lot of time but first my Purebred Gelbvieh made me about puke not all purebred cattle. I was use to crossbred cows and I could clearly see purebred Gelbvieh would not fit my enviroment or my customers. Needed to much great feed even though my Gelbvieh were more moderate than most Gelbvieh. I'll finish later. Been there and done that with the house cleaning. Hope you got her done.
Back to top Go down
Kent Powell



Posts : 606
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:42 pm

It looks like the foundation Gelbvieh, compared to Angus, were 6-7 on BW, 30-40 WW, 40-60 YW, 25-30 milk.

What about them is higher in maintenance requirements than todays angus?
Back to top Go down
http://powellangus.com
df



Posts : 613
Join date : 2010-09-28

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:25 pm

Kent Powell wrote:
It looks like the foundation Gelbvieh, compared to Angus, were 6-7 on BW, 30-40 WW, 40-60 YW, 25-30 milk.

What about them is higher in maintenance requirements than todays angus?

I wonder if part of the "bulls from the days of old" sired big, hard doing females is that the level of management was poorer compared to today, thus poor results of using some of these bulls. In the same manner, the Angus of the 70s were not very big and were a lot smaller than the Continentals, although in reality maybe those Continentals weren't all that big by today's standards. I don't really know if that is true but just wondering.

Back to top Go down
df



Posts : 613
Join date : 2010-09-28

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:42 pm

Will,
On Advantage you have often discussed the virtues of indexes. Why have you not published the API in your sale catalog?
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4625
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:56 pm

df wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
It looks like the foundation Gelbvieh, compared to Angus, were 6-7 on BW, 30-40 WW, 40-60 YW, 25-30 milk.

What about them is higher in maintenance requirements than todays angus?

I wonder if part of the "bulls from the days of old" sired big, hard doing females is that the level of management was poorer compared to today, thus poor results of using some of these bulls. In the same manner, the Angus of the 70s were not very big and were a lot smaller than the Continentals, although in reality maybe those Continentals weren't all that big by today's standards. I don't really know if that is true but just wondering.

df,
my Gelbviehs made me puke also...every calf at max birthweight from an Angus cow; just waiting to be a nightmare...I think balancer crossbreds were the only reasonably quick cure they could make...inconsistentcy with a safe middle is better than consistent extreme potential trouble...
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   

Back to top Go down
 
Another new guy
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 4 of 12Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 10, 11, 12  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Keeney`s Corner :: Breeding Philosophies :: Breeding Philosophies-
Jump to: