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Will



Posts : 224
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:33 am

Bootheel, its all about retaining the right breed composition for your enviroment. In the past crossbreeding programs, breed composition was always screwed up through the use of purebred sires. No more. Not for everyone but hybrids usage will increase, and increase.
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Will



Posts : 224
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:46 am

Eddie, a cow that has the genetics to muscle is an easy keeping cow. A cow with the genetics to muscle and marble without excess backfat is also an easy keeping cow. A cow without the genetics to muscle with excess backfat is a hard keeping cow, especially if she is a purebred Angus. Do you think backfat is a maternal trait? I know there a a good market for hybrid bulls that have muscle and marbling with low backfat that are maternal. Big shoes? Actually smaller shoes than a purebred breeder has. I have three gene pools to get my genetics. Makes it easier. Could not imagine being a purebred Angus breeder and not being able to use Shear Force 38K. Maternally he sires daughters that rival EXT without that nasty disposition. Carcass wise he blows EXT and maybe all purebred Angus out of the water. How does it get better than that?
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Kent Powell



Posts : 659
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:01 am

Can you keep the right composition without bringing it in from divergent sources?
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Will



Posts : 224
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:05 am

MK, why Shearforce 38K? Your missing the picture. He looks like Angus, and breeds like Angus. That is a good thing! Remember like to like. That's a key to great hybrids. You only had one Sim-Angus calf without fire. I am impressed. Your cows must of carried that big framed, raw boned, old style purebred Simmy bull you used. Had a new customer call a few days ago. Bought his first Sim-Angus bulls from us last year and getting his first calves this spring. Made the comment if he wants to tag the calves out of our bulls he better do it within the first hour of birth cause he will not catch them after that. Very, very impressed with the getup and go compared to the calves out of the purebred herdbulls he's using. Needs at least two more new herdbulls and depending how our sale goes he might turn his whole herd bull battery over to our Sim-Angus bulls. Nothing new either. Finished small grain seeding late last night. Have several things to catchup on and then the main focus will be the bull sale and getting pictures and video.
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Will



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Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:08 am

What do you mean by divergent sources?
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MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 5019
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:10 am

Will wrote:
MK, why Shearforce 38K? Your missing the picture. He looks like Angus, and breeds like Angus. That is a good thing! Remember like to like. That's a key to great hybrids. You only had one Sim-Angus calf without fire. I am impressed. Your cows must of carried that big framed, raw boned, old style purebred Simmy bull you used. Had a new customer call a few days ago. Bought his first Sim-Angus bulls from us last year and getting his first calves this spring. Made the comment if he wants to tag the calves out of our bulls he better do it within the first hour of birth cause he will not catch them after that. Very, very impressed with the getup and go compared to the calves out of the purebred herdbulls he's using. Needs at least two more new herdbulls and depending how our sale goes he might turn his whole herd bull battery over to our Sim-Angus bulls. Nothing new either. Finished small grain seeding late last night. Have several things to catchup on and then the main focus will be the bull sale and getting pictures and video.

laughing here Will...now and then I think we`re on the same page, only to find we`re not even reading the same book... Very Happy
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Will



Posts : 224
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:35 am

MK, you got me wondering. Are you laughing because we finished seeding? Wink Kind of funny we thought we were going to run out of seed and fertilizer but fear not! We had less than a half of a bushel of seed and several pounds of fertilizer extra! Funny how you can calibrate these air drill down to the ounce.
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:49 am

Will wrote:
Also have Sim-Angus bulls that are out crosses. Customers can max heterosis at our sale if they chose too.

How can your customers "max heterosis" if you have already used most of it up with your crosses? An angus type sim-angus bull on angus cows. Not much heterosis left in that.

Jack
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Will



Posts : 224
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:48 am

Jack, how do I use up all the heterosis? How does anyone use up all the heterosis in a well thought out crossbreeding plan? I might be wrong but I think there is heterosis by outcrossing within a breed. Is there such a thing as inbreeding depression? Do you really think an Angus type Sim-Angus bull on purebred Angus cows has less heterosis than a Sim-Angus bull used on those same purebred Angus cows that looks like a purebred Simmy? No way. Its in the genetics not the looks.
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jonken



Posts : 144
Join date : 2011-12-17
Location : nemo

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:41 pm

Bootheel wrote:
After a Sim Angus by Gelb angus, by different Sim Angus, by different Gelb Angus....and all unrelated,( however that can be) just what in the world are you left with?


Perpetual outcross, or crossbreeding, just makes me go uggggh. Too much searching the world over, and hope I find true love, then you met another and pfoooofff, you were gone.....heterosis that is.



Bootheel, missing HeeHaw



Well Bootheel after trying to sort through another new guys words I also find myself missing those old shows .

Jon , Missing Green Acres ... Mainly Hank Kimble , He was less confusing .
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EddieM



Posts : 976
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:22 pm

Will wrote:
Eddie, a cow that has the genetics to muscle is an easy keeping cow. A cow with the genetics to muscle and marble without excess backfat is also an easy keeping cow. A cow without the genetics to muscle with excess backfat is a hard keeping cow, especially if she is a purebred Angus. Do you think backfat is a maternal trait? I know there a a good market for hybrid bulls that have muscle and marbling with low backfat that are maternal. Big shoes? Actually smaller shoes than a purebred breeder has. I have three gene pools to get my genetics. Makes it easier. Could not imagine being a purebred Angus breeder and not being able to use Shear Force 38K. Maternally he sires daughters that rival EXT without that nasty disposition. Carcass wise he blows EXT and maybe all purebred Angus out of the water. How does it get better than that?

Will, you are sitting by the fountain of youth, the mother lode, the peak, the end zone, at home plate in terms of breeding programs and genetic discussion. You surely do not need any of my jabber.

Eddie, not at the fountain of youth and about 18 miles from a mineral spring
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Danny Miller



Posts : 38
Join date : 2010-11-11
Age : 59
Location : KY

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:24 pm

Will, sounds like you got it all figured out.....Anxiously waiting for pictures of those amazing bulls.

DM, missing Gilligan's Island, (Mainly the Movie Star and Mary Ann)
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:48 pm

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Will



Posts : 224
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:42 pm

Eddie. the hybrid bull business has been a money maker. Its been an enjoyable battle. I have had a lot of fun being different. Great way to raise a family. The genetics still gets me excited. Not young anymore just turned 60 last July. Don't have all the answers. Seems for every answer I find I also find a new question or two. I enjoy your input. Show me a business that does not defend its program and I'll show you a business on its way out.
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Will



Posts : 224
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:45 pm

MK, stay put. This could get interesting.
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MKeeney
Admin


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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:22 am

Will wrote:
MK, stay put. This could get interesting.

oh my goodness; now you are whipping up on me on two fronts...golf and cattle breeding...I`m just sitting here on the dock watching your swing...there`s several flaws I`ve noticed already that as a coach we will address; but I`m more of a "Bubba Watson, self taught man" fan than I am of Tiger Woods computerized swing...we see where computer generated numbers, among other things, has taken old tiger to...oblivion...so I`m not one to interfere too much with a natural Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:00 am

Will wrote:
Eddie. the hybrid bull business has been a money maker. Its been an enjoyable battle. I have had a lot of fun being different. Great way to raise a family. The genetics still gets me excited. Not young anymore just turned 60 last July. Don't have all the answers. Seems for every answer I find I also find a new question or two. I enjoy your input. Show me a business that does not defend its program and I'll show you a business on its way out.

Will throw in the towel your too dam old if your 60. Me and mike just had our 39th birthday again last week? No wonder you are cross breeding you must think time is short at your advanced age. The rest of us young pups still are following the vision of youth. so slow down and relax and enjoy life.. cheers cheers
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Will



Posts : 224
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:08 am

MK, gotta laugh out of your post. I have not had a golf lesson in my life. Figured it was only a matter of time until Tiger crashed and burned. Can't stay at the top at that level for long, rather surprised how he crashed and burned though. How do you keep activities like that quiet for that long My wife golfed right handed and had $1200 Cobra clubs and golfed really well. She took lessons and really screwed her swing up. Got pissed and bought left handed cllubs and golfs better left handed, but when she played slow pitch softball she batted right or left. I use her now unused right handed drivers. Shorter length so its pretty much the same swing as my irons. Made a huge difference. Only need one swing.
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Will



Posts : 224
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:18 am

WT, I plan on throwing in the towel. Since the genetic defect mess ranching has turned into a job I do not enjoy every day. I have been very lucky. I use to really enjoy cattle and raising bulls. I crossbreed because I believe in heterosis and I believe in hybrid bulls. If I did not have a son in the operation I would of thrown in the towel a year or two before the genetic defect mess. Farming allows me to have the winters off. Wife and I like to travel. I enjoy life but a bull sale in May and farming and regular chores is to much. It'll slow down though.
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Hilly



Posts : 429
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : Sylvan Lake, Alberta

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:11 am

Will,
Can you explain to me, the commercial cow/calf producer why I would consider buying one of these "hybrid" bulls?

I used Shearforce and Luckydice, not enough growth but the Lucky's had more growth then SF and both calved with the same ease, so I’m back to Full Fleckvieh, bigger at birth but I select sires on their vigour at birth,here are a few of the calves.










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Will



Posts : 224
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:13 pm

Hilly you are from Canada so no Shearforce or Lucky Dice would not have enough growth for you and yes Lucky Dice would have more growth than Shear Force, but Lucky Dice has the spot gene. Would be interesting to know how calves out of my bulls would grow with that type of grass. Nice big calves and really nice grass. Way better grass than my area. Must be pretty good land. That type of land is all farmed in my area. Cows in my area are run on unfarmable land. Calves colored like that would not sell very well in my area, so my bulls would start to make them all black and keep the horns off. How old are the calves, when were they born and what time of the year were pictures taken. Do Fleckviehs marble?
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Grassfarmer



Posts : 909
Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:19 pm

Will wrote:
Hilly you are from Canada so no Shearforce or Lucky Dice would not have enough growth for you.....

Really? why do we need them with more growth in Canada?
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Bob H



Posts : 425
Join date : 2011-02-17
Location : SW Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:37 pm

I have been very busy for about 45 days and not been reading any KC. My question on this topic is why would you use a composite bull. Do you not want to have a high percentage of the offspring to be the same? And if so why would you breed your cows to him in the first place. Sound like breeding without goals to me.

Bob H from the land that has treated us generously.
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Will



Posts : 224
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:42 pm

I have no idea why Canadian cattle are bigger, but they are. Simmy bulls coming into the US that I would never consider using. To much of everything for my and my customers enviroment. The calf pictured second from bottom would really get hammered in my area. Looks like a dairy cross. Do you get carcass information? When were the calves born and what time of the year was it when the pictures were taken? Was the nice level land farmed previously?
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Will



Posts : 224
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:44 pm

Bob H what makes you think hybrids are not consistent? Ever use a correctly designed hybrid?
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