Keeney`s Corner

A current and reflective discussion of cattle breeding from outside the registered mainstream
 
HomeUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 Another new guy

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3 ... , 10, 11, 12  Next
AuthorMessage
Angus 62



Posts : 140
Join date : 2010-09-26

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun May 27, 2012 11:03 am

Niece in Bismark.
Back to top Go down
Will



Posts : 220
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun May 27, 2012 12:30 pm

In my area snow is now trapped in stubble. Strip farming is long gone. Technology has allowed bigger field, no summer follow, standing stubble, less saline seeps and better yields. Ethanol has allowed better profits.
Back to top Go down
Will



Posts : 220
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun May 27, 2012 12:34 pm

Hope you enjoy your time in my neighborhood even though Bismarck is 90 miles east of me. You must of brought the rain with you. Got a little more than an inch last night. Needed it big time.
Back to top Go down
jonken



Posts : 141
Join date : 2011-12-17
Location : nemo

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Mon May 28, 2012 2:53 pm

Will wrote:
Jonken, I take that to mean Elly the Elephant needs a bigger basket! Why limit yourself with a basket to small?

A BIGGER basket for Elly, what a splendid idea. I think I might have found the perfect basket for her in Ohio, take a look at http://robnheather.tripod.com/longaber.htm

Some might call it a “genetic freak”, but I think Elly will see it as more of a “Hybrid basket”, maybe even a “Hybrid max heterosis basket." Anyhow, I think with a little technological advancement, we can “max it out” even more. I’m thinking those handles can be converted into retractable and expandable arms, a silencer installed to prevent any forewarning, and of course the top of the line GPS. This way Elly the Elephant can sit in her top notch, air conditioned equipment, watching DVD’s, and inconspicuously swipe her neighbor’s avacados as they inevitably fall out of their ample, yet smallish baskets. It’s likely that those neighbors, with those hopeless, little baskets have been plagued with Mother Nature’s own set of limitations, but not Elly, so she should feel assured of her inexhaustible harvest opportunity. Eliminating all access to the avocados, I’m sure Henry Hippo will be left with nothing but the feeling of wanting to “puke.” And if he argues to Elly that she is behind the game with such a “Freak basket” that is useless and impractical, she can surely argue that with size and technology alone, she is clearly way ahead of the game.

Wishing Elly and Henry “enough.”
Kendra
Back to top Go down
mikejd4020



Posts : 58
Join date : 2011-12-31
Location : Bainville, MT

PostSubject: Technology   Mon May 28, 2012 9:42 pm

Interesting topic on Technology in Farmers.

Besides being a two bit cowboy in Mt. For the past 4 years I have owned and operated a fly by night Precision Ag consulting company. (Could get more than that for murder).I specialize in Vr applicaitons. Well the technology can do some very impressive things, sometimes I wonder if the hassle pays the bills at the end of the year.

I agree that autosteer is very nice, however, when in works. One of the BTO's north of me was experiencing GPS problems this year. He is near retirement age and has all the technology in his cab. At one point he called the dealership to price out drill markers.

As hilly stated some of the glitches in hardware of software cause frustration. Seems as though the technology doesn't mask the simple things of farming. Basically, you could be auto-steer, Vari-rate, Triple-stacked, growth regulated to the hilt, and all that technology isn't going to do you one once of good if the seed is planted 4 and a half inches deep.


Part of the technology revolution has created a bunch of cell phone farmers, that don't read the owners manual. I mean if your livelyhood depended upon the fuction of one computerized piece of equipment, wouldn't you want to have a great understanding of it? Oh well, it is good for business.

Basically, I think the technology is good, however am afraid of making a bunch of techno-morons for farmers.
Back to top Go down
Grassfarmer



Posts : 846
Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Mon May 28, 2012 11:18 pm

Seems to me a lot of this electronic stuff is OK when it's fairly new but over time the wiring and little switches don't fair well with the dust, vibration, wet/cold that accompanies most farm operations. I try to limit myself to things that have little or no electronics, that's maybe why I'm a one bit, grass farmer cowboy and not an owner of the latest high tech stuff.
Back to top Go down
http://www.luingcattle.com
Dylan Biggs



Posts : 392
Join date : 2011-03-07

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Wed May 30, 2012 2:38 pm

mikejd4020 wrote:


however am afraid of making a bunch of techno-morons for farmers.

The horses may have already bolted.



Back to top Go down
Will



Posts : 220
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Wed May 30, 2012 3:42 pm

Now that is funny.
Back to top Go down
pukerimu



Posts : 246
Join date : 2012-06-02
Location : Norsewood, New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:52 am

Hi all - we breed Angus cattle in a total grass (and silage in winter) regime. Our breeding philosophies are to breed to type and we never actively select sires on figures and do not refer to figures at all when selecting replacement females. Performance for us is on the cow line when she can put a bull in the sale (preferably every bull dropped) and heifers in the herd - we are appalled at some of the bulls currently being used (many of them from the US) to put carcasse data into the cattle in NZ - bearing in mind that our feedlot industry is minute and most Angus herds are in the hills of NZ - weak or short jaws seem to us to be a common theme in the carcasse cattle and I was wondering if there are any thoughts or observations that fellow breeders and lovers of cattle could share - thank you
Back to top Go down
http://www.mtmableangus.co.nz
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4600
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:56 am

pukerimu wrote:
Hi all - we breed Angus cattle in a total grass (and silage in winter) regime. Our breeding philosophies are to breed to type and we never actively select sires on figures and do not refer to figures at all when selecting replacement females. Performance for us is on the cow line when she can put a bull in the sale (preferably every bull dropped) and heifers in the herd - we are appalled at some of the bulls currently being used (many of them from the US) to put carcasse data into the cattle in NZ - bearing in mind that our feedlot industry is minute and most Angus herds are in the hills of NZ - weak or short jaws seem to us to be a common theme in the carcasse cattle and I was wondering if there are any thoughts or observations that fellow breeders and lovers of cattle could share - thank you
Welcome pukerimu,
gotta tell you I was a bit perplexed by the name Smile
A place for most everything; so long as everything is in it`s proper place is my take on things...I could sure understand why the hills of NZ are not the place for the current crop of terminal Angus bulls...
Share thoughts and pictures with us anytime; we`re here to change the mindset fron fantasy to reality; so we may never be a big group Smile
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
pukerimu



Posts : 246
Join date : 2012-06-02
Location : Norsewood, New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:35 pm

Thanks for welcome - Puke = hill and Rimu = big tree in the Maori language. I am interested that you refer to the Angus sires as "terminal" - are there two lines of angus being bred in the US - one for replacements and one for feed lot animals? Getting any pics in exhausts my pc talents - we do have a web site though if anyone wants to look pm me for address. Figures are factionalising the Angus fraternity in NZ - those that adore them just cannot see that the math to create them favours feed lot genetics - not suited to grass only hill country at all - as I guess you have encountered in the US there is no arguing with the figures - exhausting!
Back to top Go down
http://www.mtmableangus.co.nz
EddieM



Posts : 895
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:41 am

Dear Big tree on the hill,

Welcome to the site if I may offer a welcome to a place where I am a guest. It is always amazing over our mindset of "the grass is greener on the other side of the fence". Some folks here are importing NZ semen and folks there are importing US semen. Since all I know is in a thimble, my knowledge of NZ Angus is from the promotion of Pinebank semen. Have you used any of their genetics? And I guess out of ignorance I have to wonder if they are the only ones trying to maintain and improve the cows they have or are most of the herds moving to "new and better"? Thanks.

Stick in the mud

pukerimu wrote:
Thanks for welcome - Puke = hill and Rimu = big tree in the Maori language. I am interested that you refer to the Angus sires as "terminal" - are there two lines of angus being bred in the US - one for replacements and one for feed lot animals? Getting any pics in exhausts my pc talents - we do have a web site though if anyone wants to look pm me for address. Figures are factionalising the Angus fraternity in NZ - those that adore them just cannot see that the math to create them favours feed lot genetics - not suited to grass only hill country at all - as I guess you have encountered in the US there is no arguing with the figures - exhausting!
Back to top Go down
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4600
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:33 am

I`ve decided this post is most applicable here...first this quote from Mr. Broken Record, whom Eddie refers to as Mr. Iowa...since I know two smart people in Iowa, I don`t want to cast a poor reflection on them Smile

Quote :
Like it or not , records are here and they are going to be part of the lives of the folks who will survive in agriculture[/
i]

well Mr. Broken Record,
records sure as hell are here to stay; they have always been here...those [i]who survive in agriculuture will have a record of spending less than the record of how much they produce

to infer that breeding stock must have epd`s before they can be considered cattle with "records" is the height of stupidity, and a sales technique of the con game...I`m always amazed that Mr. Broken Record`s cattle breeding bible was written by a man with records up the yazoo who went broke in agriculture...


pukerimu asked,
are there two lines of angus being bred in the US - one for replacements and one for feed lot animals?


no, not specific lines, {except maybe a few posters on this site} but generalized terminal types are the vast majority of the current selection fashion while trying to hold on to "maternal traits" ...and while failing to improve maternal traits, and actually losing maternal function in most instances, these cattle are promoted to be the best at everything...and the records {epds} are used to support them as best...
soooo, a total farce except to those in the registered con game...
from the tone of your post pukerimu, I`m guessing you`ll enjoy your stay here...tell us more of your program, why not post your website link for everyone`s convenience here...
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
pukerimu



Posts : 246
Join date : 2012-06-02
Location : Norsewood, New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:48 pm

I knew I was in the company of like minded individuals before I signed up sunny . Our stud website is mtmableangus.co.nz. In answer to the question about Pinebank - they are one of many NZ breeders who have remained true to their original breeding goals - that is breeding sound and functional hill country cattle - we have not used their program as their cattle are just that little bit to small a framed cattle for our clientele - there used to be 3 studs involved the the "wai group" angus franchise of which Pinebank is one, however one of them has deserted the fold and his catalogue this year is full of the very US sires that we feel are the antithesis of what suits NZ conditions. I do not believe that it is a coincidence that he was a councillor on our Assn board and changed his breeding principals in time for a push towards "high" index cattle. It is yet unclear how the removal of one strain of genetics will affect the "waigroup" cattle as they have relied on some diversity within the three herds to alleviate "inbreeding depression". It is possible that they will introduce new genetics. If anyone takes the time to read our comments on breeding philosophies they probably won't be surprised to hear that we have earnt the censure of the same board and much accolades from fellow breeders with the same concerns as ours.

There are many conservative studs in NZ who are resisting the push towards figures being the "only" way to select cattle - however the shouting and posturing of those that do breed solely for figures is hard to counter - especially when the current board of Angus NZ is overloaded with "business people" who leave the farming of their cattle to others - the added problem is our Assn (in the wisdom of previous boards) has a large financial stake in the Breedplan system which measures NZ and Australian cattle - it is only just becoming evident in the last couple of years the widening of the gap in "measured" performance between cattle domiciled in either country as the calculations appear to favour feed lot cattle - their performance is easy to measure academically - not so easy to measure actual performance in an expansive grassfed system - anecdotal evidence from commercial farmers would indicate that the feed lot genetics do not perform in true NZ cattle country.

We would appreciate any further insight into any percieved gap in performance between "free range cows" and feedlot bred animals in the US - thanks.
Back to top Go down
http://www.mtmableangus.co.nz
df



Posts : 613
Join date : 2010-09-28

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:19 pm

I would suggest there is G x E, but it might be more evident in lowly heritable traits. I think it would certainly support maternal cattle being evaluated and produced in the same/similar environment.
Back to top Go down
MVCatt



Posts : 141
Join date : 2010-09-24
Age : 42
Location : SW Penn

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:33 pm

Pukerimu,
Do you believe inbreeding is the cause of genetic defects here in the US?
Back to top Go down
Tom D
Admin


Posts : 535
Join date : 2010-09-25
Age : 38
Location : Michigan

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:36 pm

Back to top Go down
pukerimu



Posts : 246
Join date : 2012-06-02
Location : Norsewood, New Zealand

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:00 pm

MVCatt wrote:
Pukerimu,
Do you believe inbreeding is the cause of genetic defects here in the US?

By no means am I an expert study on the subject - from the information that I have gleened it would appear that while inbreeding is not the cause of genetic defects the likelihood of recessive genes which result in genetic defects becoming expressed increases exponentially when closely related animals that both carry the previously unexpressed gene are mated. I believe from the information that I have seen that if an animal does not have any such characteristics in it's genetic make up then it is probably safe to inbreed without risk of defects however the effect of "inbreeding depression" expresses itself with resulting losses in productivity - our concern is that animals that are plainly not the best representative of the qualities of their breed due to "inbreeding depression" are still bred from as they have good figures - (without figures to recommend them they would have been culled) - the good figures are to be expected if the same highly figured animal appears in one pedigree multiple times and ofcourse the risk of previously unheard of conditions rearing their ugly heads in populations of inbred animals increases with each generation. If the catalogues of several studs in NZ are a reflection of breeding for numbers many of the pedigree cattle in NZ will be able to trace their lineage back to only a handful of bulls within 5 - 10 years.

We draw a distinction between line breeding - which is the careful theme of breeding common traits through a herd and has resulted in great herds, and the mating of full siblings, father and daughter etc . We certainly do not wish to cause offence or criticise anyone elses breeding program - we just wish to differentiate our own. Interestingly enough it was a councillor suggesting that we were displaying our ignorance by suggesting that inbreeding could eventuate in genetic defects which prompted the attachment of multiple links attesting to just that to our website.

If anyone reads the article quoting Kelly Shaff you will note it is dated - if there are more recent published articles from the states expressing similar concerns that someone could point me in the direction of I would be appreciative
Back to top Go down
http://www.mtmableangus.co.nz
MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4600
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:39 pm

I suggest you spend the winter reading the Reflections from LL {Larry Leonhardt} thread...
some points from your post; disputed by another non-expert Smile

our concern is that animals that are plainly not the best representative of the qualities of their breed due to "inbreeding depression" are still bred from as they have good figures - (without figures to recommend them they would have been culled)

why would you assume a closer bred, "inbreeding depression" animal would not breed the "figures" or the qualities of his ancestry just because the animal does not display these traits phenotypically?

If anyone reads the article quoting Kelly Shaff you will note it is dated

oh my gosh, I did read it, and it is pure hypocrisy for him to be speaking of others breeding for "numbers" when that operation breeds and artifically feeds for performance numbers with little commercial application...

here`s a recent quote of LL`s from Reflections that applies well in response to your concerns...

So during the dawn of another new progressive era in beef production among the positives and negatives, I've learned that inbreeding is not bad, it is the way we abuse and use it.....outbreeding is not bad, it is the way we abuse and use it.....hybridization is not bad, it is the way we abuse and use it......EPD are not bad, they are the only way we can measure a hybrid's performance.....maintaining ancestral records is not bad, it is our mixed up overglorification of them.....contructive criticism is not bad, it is our personal vindictive jealousy. Variation is not bad, it is a miracle of joyful and wonderful assortment available for us to coordinate.
Back to top Go down
http://www.keeneyscorner.com
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:48 pm

Impressed, I am, as anyone that uses the University of Boloney as a reference, is just tops in my book.


After perusing the website, I am confused though. Do you just not like the kind of cattle being imported, or just imports, or just numbers, or the misuse of numbers, or what?

Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:07 pm

Pukerimu,

I pulled this quote of your websight ''CA Future Direction’s (for example) pedigree is so confused and goes back multiple times to Rito 9J9 of B156 7T26, Band 234 of Ideal 3163 and Rito 707 - some of whom are already inbred, it is hard to keep track of who is who – this bull is then often seen more than once in some other heavily used bull’s pedigrees thus compounding the problem. Despite his apparent universal popularity we made a decision a long time before it became known that this bull was a carrier of defects not to use him or any of his progeny due to the in-breeding which is clear to see in his pedigree on the American Angus web site. We will continue to go through the same decision process based on the pedigree information which is freely available on the New Zealand and overseas breed societies web sites.


Either I misinterpreted this, or you took a wrong turn at Alberqerque when you ended up here


Bootheel, confused as always
Back to top Go down
Kent Powell



Posts : 606
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:42 pm

Houston- The solution is being blamed as the problem.
Back to top Go down
http://powellangus.com
Dylan Biggs



Posts : 392
Join date : 2011-03-07

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:57 pm

Bootheel wrote:
Pukerimu,

I pulled this quote of your websight ''CA Future Direction’s (for example) pedigree is so confused and goes back multiple times to Rito 9J9 of B156 7T26, Band 234 of Ideal 3163 and Rito 707 - some of whom are already inbred, it is hard to keep track of who is who – this bull is then often seen more than once in some other heavily used bull’s pedigrees thus compounding the problem. Despite his apparent universal popularity we made a decision a long time before it became known that this bull was a carrier of defects not to use him or any of his progeny due to the in-breeding which is clear to see in his pedigree on the American Angus web site. We will continue to go through the same decision process based on the pedigree information which is freely available on the New Zealand and overseas breed societies web sites.


Either I misinterpreted this, or you took a wrong turn at Alberqerque when you ended up here


Bootheel, confused as always

Albuquerque induced serendipity.

I have taken many wrong turns at Albuquerque, should have probably just stayed there. Hey Joe you want to meet in Albuquerque sometime and see if we can straighten things out.
Back to top Go down
MVCatt



Posts : 141
Join date : 2010-09-24
Age : 42
Location : SW Penn

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:08 pm

Bootheel wrote:
Pukerimu,

I pulled this quote of your websight ''CA Future Direction’s (for example) pedigree is so confused and goes back multiple times to Rito 9J9 of B156 7T26, Band 234 of Ideal 3163 and Rito 707 - some of whom are already inbred, it is hard to keep track of who is who – this bull is then often seen more than once in some other heavily used bull’s pedigrees thus compounding the problem. Despite his apparent universal popularity we made a decision a long time before it became known that this bull was a carrier of defects not to use him or any of his progeny due to the in-breeding which is clear to see in his pedigree on the American Angus web site. We will continue to go through the same decision process based on the pedigree information which is freely available on the New Zealand and overseas breed societies web sites.


Either I misinterpreted this, or you took a wrong turn at Alberqerque when you ended up here


Bootheel, confused as always

Bootheel, I thought the same thing after TechnoWill arrived here speaking of MAX this and MAX that...I believe it's a kinder gentler KC.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:22 pm

scratch scratch
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   

Back to top Go down
 
Another new guy
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 11 of 12Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3 ... , 10, 11, 12  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Keeney`s Corner :: Breeding Philosophies :: Breeding Philosophies-
Jump to: