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Will



Posts : 220
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:13 am

Eddie, the last ond only time I did that was when I was a purebed Gelbvieh breeder a loonngg time ago. Had bred my commerical herd up to mostly Purebred Gelbvieh. Half bloods were great. Three quarter bloods had throw aways. Purebreds made me puke. Decide if I could not sell Gelbvieh Angus hybrid bulls I would go back to raising steers. No way was I interested in raising and selling purebred Gelbviehs bulls. No way was I going to ranch without maternal heterosis. I did it before the Gelbvieh Association started their balancer program. I did it by researching and studing how to do it. I consider myself a student and I have studied the best teachers I could find. I do not raise big cattle, my goal is to raise cattle that get to 1300 pounds quick and then mature, and yes they have ribeye, marbling, low backfat and are maternal. I have my own hybrid program and I could give rip about anyone else's hybrid program. Most hybrid breeders do not have a clue what they are doing. They take their problem cows to make hybrids and still use the top cows to make purebreds. Thats BS. I make hybrids only! Explain a fixed line?
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Angus 62



Posts : 140
Join date : 2010-09-26

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:07 am

Like a lot of folks on this site I too have been down the mainstream registered road. And to a large degree the hybrid/crossbred/composite/whatever deal follows suit. Something for nothing. Bigger faster, monster ribeyes, higher quality grade, higher yield grade, all with some very loose connections with ''better '' more profitable cattle. It is largely a load of crap. The bull/breed of the month deal has a certain allure. It has created more problems then it ever has cured. What fixed line breeding offers is the sustainability of simply saying this works pretty well and it is ENOUGH. I know what the limits of my production system are and my goal is to fit inside of them.
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df



Posts : 613
Join date : 2010-09-28

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:04 am

EddieM wrote:
Will wrote:
I want both. More output without more input and more return for the calf. How do you know your limits if you do not "push it." Optimum at my ranch changes from year to year. Depends if it rains or not. Heterosis is just one tool in my tool box. What tools do you have in your toolbox?

Probably not a cattleman in the country who has not already pushed the top limits and had cows come back open after some impressive weaning weights on the calf crop. So, you already know your upper limit and I do too. I have seen your comments on advantage discussing big REA and such. Are you really selling heterosis or cattle with extra growth or larger mature size? The tool at this site is fixed lines for maternal use.

One well known person in the West claims bigger ribeye cattle are earlier maturing and he is focused on keeping cow size reasonable. Wonder if there is some truth to that.
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MVCatt



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Join date : 2010-09-24
Age : 42
Location : SW Penn

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:17 pm

Will wrote:
Half bloods were great. Three quarter bloods had throw aways. Purebreds made me puke.

Kinda hard to make a cake if the ingredients make ya puke... Unless you can find a way to make cake from used cake.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:43 pm

df wrote:
EddieM wrote:
Will wrote:
I want both. More output without more input and more return for the calf. How do you know your limits if you do not "push it." Optimum at my ranch changes from year to year. Depends if it rains or not. Heterosis is just one tool in my tool box. What tools do you have in your toolbox?

Probably not a cattleman in the country who has not already pushed the top limits and had cows come back open after some impressive weaning weights on the calf crop. So, you already know your upper limit and I do too. I have seen your comments on advantage discussing big REA and such. Are you really selling heterosis or cattle with extra growth or larger mature size? The tool at this site is fixed lines for maternal use.

One well known person in the West claims bigger ribeye cattle are earlier maturing and he is focused on keeping cow size reasonable. Wonder if there is some truth to that.

ribeye/cwt carcass?...maybe...bigger ribeye...no
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:53 pm

Will wrote:
Eddie, the last ond only time I did that was when I was a purebed Gelbvieh breeder a loonngg time ago. Had bred my commerical herd up to mostly Purebred Gelbvieh. Half bloods were great. Three quarter bloods had throw aways. Purebreds made me puke. Decide if I could not sell Gelbvieh Angus hybrid bulls I would go back to raising steers. No way was I interested in raising and selling purebred Gelbviehs bulls. No way was I going to ranch without maternal heterosis. I did it before the Gelbvieh Association started their balancer program. I did it by researching and studing how to do it. I consider myself a student and I have studied the best teachers I could find. I do not raise big cattle, my goal is to raise cattle that get to 1300 pounds quick and then mature, and yes they have ribeye, marbling, low backfat and are maternal. I have my own hybrid program and I could give rip about anyone else's hybrid program. Most hybrid breeders do not have a clue what they are doing. They take their problem cows to make hybrids and still use the top cows to make purebreds. Thats BS. I make hybrids only! Explain a fixed line?

Will, as you are breeding Simm-Angus to Simm-Angus, you are losing maternal heterosis at a rather constant rate...UNLESS...you make sure the Simmental and Angus bulls in each cross are unrelated, AND also if you practice NO SELECTION in the resulting crosses...aggravating facts, aren`t they Smile ? but why as you said at Advantage, you are running out of places to turn to to continue...

I really have no Simm-Angus program, but I would use any breed that possessed the traits that I don`t have in my cattle that I wanted to pass on to a commercial breeder via a crossbred terminal bull...why spend 30 years attempting to make Angus Marble like Wagyu, when I could use a cross bull and ON AVERAGE, produce about the same thing now...
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Will



Posts : 220
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:40 pm

I meant to say explain the the sim-angus bulls you had for sale this year. Type of sire and type of cow for a start.
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EddieM



Posts : 895
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Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:50 pm

Quote :
Explain a fixed line?
Will, I'll explain it in my simple understanding or personal view. A line of cattle can have a specific purpose: mostly maternal or mostly terminal. A maternal line is more efficient and functionally for those purposes, not selected specifically for muscling and growth rate. A cross with a terminal type bull would produce market animals.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:51 pm

Will wrote:
I meant to say explain the the sim-angus bulls you had for sale this year. Type of sire and type of cow for a start.

certainly not accepted by my customers as they surely must be satisfied with the "terminal traits" of the Angus I offer...but I think some could benefit their feeder calf weights and prices with these Simm-Angus bulls that offer more frame, muscle, growth, and even a bit of heterosis compared to the Angus I sell...the Simmy bull I used was big framed, stout, and to my surprise, the birth epd was accurate...not big at birth at all...I doubt I have anymore; that`s your line of work Smile ; and in my opinion, a component that can be utilized in commercial production...I`ll do a few Charolais, but Mean Spirit and white cow are the pros here in that field ...
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:43 am

Not aggravating at all. Over at Advantage Cattle I got called a thief for stealing it from my customers. I do not. As a hybrid bull producer I have accepted the fact I have to giveup some maternal heterosis so my customers can get close to max heterosis. That is the nature of the beast. I am doing nothing more than developing a new breed or breeds, but I will always try to have at least two seprate lines to give my customers the opportunity to outcross. Interestingly the farther I get into my hybrid program the more I like my cattle.
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:45 am

Eddie, can there be a fixed line of cattle that have maternal and carcass?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:47 am

Will wrote:
Not aggravating at all. Over at Advantage Cattle I got called a thief for stealing it from my customers. I do not. As a hybrid bull producer I have accepted the fact I have to giveup some maternal heterosis so my customers can get close to max heterosis. That is the nature of the beast. I am doing nothing more than developing a new breed or breeds, but I will always try to have at least two seprate lines to give my customers the opportunity to outcross. Interestingly the farther I get into my hybrid program the more I like my cattle.
grab up the camera and show us some pictures Will...just be sure and not bob the tail switch...we know anyone doing that is not a serious breeder
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:54 am

Not surprised your Sim-Angus were not accepted by your customers. Really don't think you wanted to sell them. Big framed, big boned bull on small framed cow. Fire and Ice. Not my cup of tea. You are right though it is terminal, like in steers instead of being left as bulls. Bet your terminal Angus are not that way. At least I hope they aren't. What kind of bull sired your quarter blood Simmys?
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:03 am

Might finish seeding small grains today, then I will have some time to get some pictures. Last years pen of bulls were amazing and this year they are even more amazing, but what really always amazes me more is their hiefer mates. The bulls we raise and sell are the culls to our program. We are after the hiefer mates to keep the program going.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:04 am

Will wrote:
Not surprised your Sim-Angus were not accepted by your customers. Really don't think you wanted to sell them. Big framed, big boned bull on small framed cow. Fire and Ice. Not my cup of tea. You are right though it is terminal, like in steers instead of being left as bulls. Bet your terminal Angus are not that way. At least I hope they aren't. What kind of bull sired your quarter blood Simmys?
one that didn`t have enough fire...if you are going to make Simmental be Angus, I`ll just keep Angus...nothing wrong with fire and ice, if the resulting progeny are born alive and then all dead on the rail...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:06 am

Will wrote:
Might finish seeding small grains today, then I will have some time to get some pictures. Last years pen of bulls were amazing and this year they are even more amazing, but what really always amazes me more is their hiefer mates. The bulls we raise and sell are the culls to our program. We are after the hiefer mates to keep the program going.

nothing amazes me except the promoters who seek to amaze me Smile
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:08 am

Better yet I'll try and post some video with the pictures, that way no one can say I bobbed the tail. My son plans on videoing all the bulls and having a video auction. That way there is no need to have the help to run them through the ring. May is a very busy time in the neighborhood. Kind of crazy to have a bull sale in May.
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:11 am

Your cattle do not amaze you?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:24 am

Will wrote:
Better yet I'll try and post some video with the pictures, that way no one can say I bobbed the tail. My son plans on videoing all the bulls and having a video auction. That way there is no need to have the help to run them through the ring. May is a very busy time in the neighborhood. Kind of crazy to have a bull sale in May.

good deal; looking forward to it!!!
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:47 am

Will wrote:
Eddie, can there be a fixed line of cattle that have maternal and carcass?

Sure, and they will consume feed at the rate of carcass based cattle. Where's the efficiency?

When you sell "heterosis" with crossbred bulls, do you only sell bulls to people who own a herd of cows that are not either Sims or Angus? If the herd is Angus or Simmental, then, somewhat as Clara used to say, "Where's the heterosis?"
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:01 pm

Eddie, do you have any proof that carcass cattle consume more feed? Very high Marbling cattle do. Mine do not seem to. In fact I think they do more with a pound of feed than most cattle. Maternal or other. Also raise Gelbvieh-Angus bulls. Gelbvieh of course is an outcross to Simmy and the Angus, up until the line bred Bushwacker bull was used last year, was an outcross. Felt I also needed to take the New Trend line in to my Gelbvieh-Angus. Also have Sim-Angus bulls that are out crosses. Customers can max heterosis at our sale if they chose too.
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:09 pm

Glad you are looking forward to it. I think you will find it interesting. I know I find your cattle interesting. I had hoped you used Shear Force 38K or a son of his to make your Sim-Angus. I would of bought one because I really like your cows. Best way to big a certain cow into the program is though a son!
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:16 pm

Will,
gel-ang on simm-ang doesn`t maximize heterosis...there`s a fine line between crossbreeding and mongrelization...I`m beginning to think that is the limits you are pushing most...
why Shear force..his type and the growth looks like an Angus to me?
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:32 pm

After a Sim Angus by Gelb angus, by different Sim Angus, by different Gelb Angus....and all unrelated,( however that can be) just what in the world are you left with?


Perpetual outcross, or crossbreeding, just makes me go uggggh. Too much searching the world over, and hope I find true love, then you met another and pfoooofff, you were gone.....heterosis that is.



Bootheel, missing HeeHaw
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:10 pm

Quote :
Eddie, do you have any proof that carcass cattle consume more feed? Very high Marbling cattle do. Mine do not seem to. In fact I think they do more with a pound of feed than most cattle.

Maintenance needs for a carcass type cow that carries the extra muscling (pounds) has to require extra feed, doesn’t it? Can you defy science?

The same issue as assuming that hybrid vigor is increased for the calf producer by the use of crossbred bulls. I understand the quest for a 3 way cross from past research but some of the value of that system was based on the usefulness of the crossbred cow and not the bull.

Do you think that there is a market for a high marbling crossbred bull without increased muscling and a market for a crossbred bull with increased muscling without high marbling and that you can really predict and guarantee such results with crossbred animals? Sounds like more than “big shoes” to fill. I’d say pretty well nigh impossible and I am not the least bit sour, bitter, mad or pickled. Just chatting and that’s about it.

Eddie, wondering how to measure "do not seem to" but not wondering too hard as I'm just chatting.
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