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larkota



Posts : 395
Join date : 2010-09-23
Age : 56
Location : Kimball South Dakota

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat May 12, 2012 9:27 am

Will wrote:
Went well. Caught a break with the weather. No rain and just a little wind. Customers are like me. They know how to balance their checkbook and I really like that. I make my money by having very few throwaways. My customers make their money the same way. Sold the two potential bulls we cut the week before the sale. Had them with the replacement hiefers all winter so they gained maybe a pound a day. They brought $1193 as steers. Market is really good. Time to tuck a little money away for a rainy day. Sara took quite a few pictures. Wish she would of been around when a little 4 year old boy was petting a bull while he was laying down and stayed laying down. People were very impressed with that. Every bull had a really good disposition. Learned a lot about a video sale. Lot of work setting up and tearing down again. Glad its over. Not much of a salesman or people person. I do it because I like genetics and the outcrossing of those genetics. Son is the people person. Does a really good job. Lost a couple really good customers again this year, to dispersing their cows. Really good money in farming with less work. Can't blame them. We are going that route also. It was our last sale. We will have a few bulls for a hobby and sell them private treaty. I want most of my winter off. Enjoy other things.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

sounds like a JimL record to me. who knew North Dakota the new Iowa.

Lost a couple really good customers again this year, to dispersing their cows. Really good money in farming with less work. Can't blame them. We are going that route also. It was our last sale.

Will think that is how a breeder matures. starts with a few registurd cows, in a couple of years sells a few bulls private treaty to neighbors, bull sales pick up go to penning and putting out catalogs, hires consultant, neighbors cant afford your bulls need bigger fish for buyers, spend more take home less, put in your own salebarn, to much work try video - thought to be easy- customers dont like rather see them in new ring, back to private treaty and a few neighbors.

at least that was was how it worked for me.
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Grassfarmer



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Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat May 12, 2012 2:03 pm

Another herd quitter eh?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat May 12, 2012 2:40 pm

who`ll supply the cross bred bulls?
oh, I hadn`t thought of that....the registered angus breeders? Smile
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat May 12, 2012 4:30 pm

Larkota, quite the opposite. Everything I own I owe to the bull business. It has been great. Use to be a lot of fun but since getting nailed by the genetic defect mess its been more like work. Been really lucky I have always had a job that I enjoyed for the most part. I like doing new things and farming is new. My son also likes new things. Farming is a whole new game. Technology to the max. Auto steer to Ravens to mapping. We really like it. Beats the heck out of argueing if there is such a thing as heterosis. Life is about stages. I am just entering a new stage. Have a great day! I know I will.
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat May 12, 2012 4:38 pm

MK, the smart people will supply the hybrid bulls. The hybrid movement no longer needs me, and if it does I could care less. Time to move on. Son wants to keep a few bulls to sell to his friends. Why not?
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat May 12, 2012 6:20 pm

Will wrote:
Auto steer to Ravens to mapping.

I had one of them b@$%%# peck a hole in a calf's back yesterday. I don't like ravens.
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larkota



Posts : 395
Join date : 2010-09-23
Age : 56
Location : Kimball South Dakota

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm

Another new guy


Another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
And another one gone, and another one gone
Another one bites the dust
Hey, I'm gonna get you too
Another one bites the dust

How do you think I'm going to get along,
Without you, when you're gone
You took me for everything that I had,
And kicked me out on my own

Are you happy, are you satisfied
How long can you stand the heat
Out of the doorway the bullets rip
To the sound of the beat

[Chorus]

Another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
There are plenty of ways you can hurt a man
And bring him to the ground
You can beat him
You can cheat him
You can treat him bad and leave him
When he's down
But I'm ready, yes I'm ready for you
I'm standing on my own two feet
Out of the doorway the bullets rip
Repeating the sound of the beat

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat May 12, 2012 8:31 pm

Will wrote:
MK, the smart people will supply the hybrid bulls. The hybrid movement no longer needs me, and if it does I could care less. Time to move on. Son wants to keep a few bulls to sell to his friends. Why not?
It won`t take many to supply the hybrid demand around here; for that matter, none...the terminal Angus type are in abundance; saw some two`s the other day...1700 lb; $2000; plenty good...
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat May 12, 2012 10:27 pm

MK, trust me I believe you. You have the king of hybrid fire and ice matings in your area.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat May 12, 2012 11:16 pm

how about running some little everyday ice cows that take care of themselves while you do other things...breed them to fire and sell all the calves commercial...ahhh shoot, that`s no good...too basic; we couldn`t argue about that...we gotta keep you in the cattle breeding business for the sheer joy you bring to the process...
I may have given up on hybrids, but I`m not giving up on you breeding cattle...
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun May 13, 2012 7:14 am

Oh we will run a few cows to use the unfarmable land. Of course they will be hybrid cows and of course we will not need to cut a male calf. Not tired of the genetics. Not interested in raising steers. Glad to hear I bring sheer joy to your life. Rather quite on Keeney's Corner with out me stirring the pot. Also not interested in fire and ice matings even at the commerical level. Fire and ice might, maybe, fit at the commerical level but it sure does not fit at the bull production level, so why do you use fire and ice when you make hybrids? And do you use fire and ice to make your terminal Angus bulls?
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun May 13, 2012 7:23 am

MK, any chance you could post a few pictures of your sale bulls from the back and front? How many bulls did you pick from to get your sale bulls?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun May 13, 2012 7:56 am

Will wrote:
MK, any chance you could post a few pictures of your sale bulls from the back and front? How many bulls did you pick from to get your sale bulls?
I steer plenty of calves; not so much a question of good or bad for my purpose, but how many bulls can I sell, and getting to be a question of how many I want to sell...
why fire and ice hybrids? convenience, and I can keep a cow that fits my environment instead of bigger frame crossed cows that don`t...and I agree with Darrh Bullock, there`s no difference in the consistency of a fire and ice bull than a lukewarm to lukewarm bull...you didn`t read that post did you? plenty of people making breeding stock with only the fuzziest notion of genetics...
It is quiet; people are busy, even me...but it`s all here, and it`s about all been said for those who wish to see...not reading or not believing, let`s the con keep playing the con game conscience free...we get about one new full fledged convert a year...sure you don`t want to re-consider joining a 40 year breeding plan ? Smile
I don`t picture bulls from front or back; pretty pictures are a hybrid man`s game; of course, they look good, but only as long as you keep them crossed...the day is coming that I won`t picture linebred herdsires at all; they`ll be too pukey looking; two go out with heifers tomorrow...I`ll try and picture their female ancestry today
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun May 13, 2012 11:39 am

Who is Darrh Bullock? And no I did not read his post. Where is it? I like a picture front and back to see shoulders, width of back and lower hindquarter. Find a smaller framed bull to make your hybrids. Thats what I do. I stand firm on my comment that fire and ice matings should not have their nuts or ovaries!
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun May 13, 2012 11:52 am

Will wrote:
Who is Darrh Bullock? And no I did not read his post. Where is it? I like a picture front and back to see shoulders, width of back and lower hindquarter. Find a smaller framed bull to make your hybrids. Thats what I do. I stand firm on my comment that fire and ice matings should not have their nuts or ovaries!
the ice age would never have ended if fire had not been discovered and then applied...
http://www.angusjournal.com/ArticlePDF/1194_FireandIce.pdf
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EddieM



Posts : 980
Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun May 13, 2012 3:45 pm

Quote :
Rather quite on Keeney's Corner with out me stirring the pot.


I was out deer hunting one fall afternoon years ago and chose to sit in a nice stand of oaks where deer had been feeding. The squirrels were there and were busy. They'd scamper up the tree, shake about 3 to 6 acorns loose to hit the ground all around me, get one acorn in their mouth, climb down the tree and rush off to hide that acorn and after a little bit they'd be back to do the same thing. They never seemed to think that the ground was covered in acorns and they could do a lot better just to pick one of them up and save the up and down of climbing the trees. It reminds me of Will and all of his past activity here with his many posts in a short spell of time and theories beyond genetic principles. Moral of the squirrel story: Activity does not always equate with accomplishment.

P.S. OT, the weather for that fall afternoon was low humidity, in the 60s and a light mix of clouds with ample sunshine!
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moemantha



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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun May 13, 2012 4:24 pm

great reading, wonder if you could explain MK why the linebreds would be to ugly to look at to want to picture.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun May 13, 2012 5:22 pm

moemantha wrote:
great reading, wonder if you could explain MK why the linebreds would be to ugly to look at to want to picture.
regression...those who have not seen regression have either not inbred close or long enough or both...
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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun May 13, 2012 5:44 pm

An interesting article.

Dairy Crossbreeds - The Rare Breed
Only a few dairy farmers and researchers defy convention and crossbreeding dairy cattle, but the concept is becoming more popular.

Crossbreeding, once unheard of in dairy circles, is becoming a more popular concept in an industry now dominated by purebred herds of Holsteins, Jerseys, Ayrshires and other milking breeds. Commonplace elsewhere in agriculture, from corn to pork, crossbreeding seeks to take advantage of the phenomenon known as hybrid vigour.

Hybrid vigour, also known a heterosis, is a measure of the differences between a crossbred and the averages of its purebred parents. If a difference is not positive enough to be greater than the best of the purebreds, crossbreeding may not be beneficial. Sometimes, though, overall economic merit or a combination of traits may be the justification for crossbreeding rather than one trait.

In dairying, most interest has been in trying to capitalize on heterosis to improve fertility and longevity rather than on milk production. Indeed, no breed outproduces Holsteins, which make up 92 per cent of our dairy cow population. No breed has milk component levels higher than those of Jerseys. There have been concerns, however, about increased levels of cull rates, fertility, inbreeding, and health and fitness traits in traditional dairy breeds.

Reports based on U.S. dairy herd improvement data in recent years have indicated a serious decline in dairy herd fertility. Canadian data don't seem to bear this out, at least not to such a serious extent. A recent paper published by Brian Van Doormaal, Canadian Dairy Network (CDN) general manager, showed the average 56-day non-return rate in Canadian dairy herds is 67 per cent, a small decline from 68 per cent previously.

He found a large difference in the non-return rate between heifers and first and later lactation cows. As well there was a large seasonal difference. The lowest was in winter when the most breedings take place. Recording and analysis of breeding data through milk recording, including confirmed pregnancies, would give a much more accurate estimate of the true situation.

All pure breeds are by definition inbred to some extent. This distinguishes one breed's features from those of others. The level of inbreeding within the major dairy breeds has been increasing over the years, about 0.1 to 0.24 per cent per year depending on breed. According to reports published by CDN, Canada's major dairy breeds have an inbreeding level of 4.5 to 5.5 per cent.

Increased inbreeding in a population tends to concentrate undesirable recessive genes. That depresses performance accordingly. As two breeds become more and more inbred, the heterosis benefit from crossing members of each in a crossbreeding program becomes greater.

Yet little crossbreeding research has been done. Cost is a big reason and research trials can take 20 to 25 years to complete. Studies that have been completed do point to improvements in fitness traits, reproduction and lifetime profit. However, field data from herds actually practising crossbreeding are too sketchy to let us make solid conclusions or recommendations.

One study conducted at five research stations by Agriculture Canada, mostly using Holstein-Ayrshire crosses, confirmed several crossbred groups were equal to but not superior to Holstein in milk yield. This result was similar to those of earlier U.S. studies. They found crossbred strains were superior for lifetime performance and had a higher reproductive rate, or more calves born. Although heterosis was 16 to 20 per cent for most productive traits, actual performance did not exceed the level of purebred Holsteins.

Another study recently compared field data on the profitability of pure Holstein and Jersey breeds along with two and three-breed rotational crosses in New Zealand. Holstein-Jersey crossbreds make up 18 per cent of the national dairy herd there. Results showed crossbreeding among two or more breeds must be evaluated on a number of traits, mainly related to viability, and reproductive and productive performance. The Holstein-Jersey cross had the highest profitability per hectare.

New Zealand's genetic evaluation system allows comparison of cows on the basis of productive worth for fat, protein, milk and bodyweight. Fat, protein and herd-survival have positive values, and milk yield and body-weight have negative values. In the study, a high value for butterfat favoured the Jersey breed. A lower butterfat value favoured Holsteins.

Work done at the U .S. Department of Agriculture (USDA), comparing the merit of crossbred and purebred dairy cattle, found some evidence of positive heterosis values, reported Dr. Paul Van Raden at the 2001 Dairy Science meetings. General values were 3.4 per cent for milk yield, 4.4 per cent for fat yield, 4.1 per cent for protein yield, 0.7 per cent for somatic cell score, 1.2 per cent for productive life and 3.0 per cent for mature size.

Numbers were based on November 2000 USDA genetic evaluations. There were records from only 16,810 crossbred cows compared to nearly three million dairy purebreds.

Since some of the greatest benefits of introducing crossbreeding may be in fertility and fitness traits, we need to do genetic evaluation in these areas. Programs such as DairyCOMP save some of these data but they haven't been brought into our genetic evaluation system.

We need to identify crossbred cows by breed composition in our milk recording system and retain that identification for two generations. The database retains parentage identification regardless of breed. This is the only way we can evaluate the results of crossbred matings, or even know how many of the various cross- bred cows there are. Many cows are not coded as crossbreds since they don't receive breed class averages or enter into any herd averages-crossbred dairy cows have no standard age, breed or lactation adjustments. We don't have enough identified crossbreds in the system to generate any sort of standard factors.

We do have systems in place to help select sires for purebred breeding. We need to generate more information if we want to make intelligent choices about crossbred dairy cattle too.
Crossbreeding Poses Some Risk

A concern in choosing breeds for a crossbreeding program is that those with smaller numbers may be unable to keep up with genetic progress of more popular breeds. As well, if crossbreeding gained popularity, it would take active females out of the breeding population and slow genetic gain.Marketing offspring from a crossbreeding program may be a concern too. Canadian dairy cattle have enjoyed tremendous export markets, mostly to the U.S. Buyers generally tend to discriminate against crosses to avoid the unknown variability. Some dairy producers, however, do want crossbreds.The direction of a breeding program comes down to knowing your market and whether the direction is profitable.
Crossbreeding 101: Heres How It Works

The goals of a crossbreeding program can be twofold. First, capitalize on traits that can be improved through heterosis and then select breeds with the strengths needed to make those improvements. First let's understand some of the terminology:

F1. The first generation offspring as a result of crossbreeding. The Fl contains 50 per cent of the genes of the two parental breeds and expresses 100 per cent of the heterosis. Ideally the whole herd should be made up of Fls but such a herd can't produce its own replace-ments.

F2. The second generation made up of intermating Fls. For example, if a Holstein-Jersey sire is bred to Holstein-Jersey cows, the characteristics that range all the way from pure Holstein to pure Jersey. This is too much variation for most herd breeding programs.

Rotational Crossing. Some form of rotational crossbreeding is usually used to take advantage of heterosis but also have relatively consistent results. A two-breed rotation where the offspring are bred back successively to one of the parent breeds maintains 67 per cent of the heterosis expressed as F1s. A third breed could be introduced to make a three-way rotational cross that maintains 86 per cent of the possible heterosis. As well, a fourth breed can be included.

A three- or four-way cross could have a downside. If the additional breed or breeds are of lower merit than the first two breeds, you might give up more value than you gain. In theory, the three and four-way crosses should be the best performers. However, few trials have been able to distinguish a large difference in merit between two-way and three-way crosses.

Reproductive traits and factors affecting length of productive life appear to be improved regardless of the specific crossing program employed. Heterosis is also a factor in maintaining the yield traits in crossbred F1s and F2s to remain competitive with the higher yielding purebreds. As in purebred selection, the most common advice is to set goals for your herd. When choosing genetic material to add to it -usually sires-select the highest merit bulls available from the breed you select.
Choosing Among Breeds to Produce Best Crosses

Ontario Holstein breeder Howard Cornwell of Oxford County has tried some crossbreeding using Brown Swiss sires on Holstein cows. This cross has given better herd life due to better breeding success, and better feet and legs, he believes. This is retained in the second generation when the F1s are back-crossed to Holstein.

The Brown Swiss has a similar body size and production level to the Holstein, and tends to retain body condition better than Holsteins, even in the F1 and F2 generations. The ability to retain higher body condition scores has been shown to have a genetic link to cow fertility.

Dr..Jack McAllister, who headed Agriculture Canada's crossbreeding trial, would consider a two-breed rotational cross, either Jersey-Holstein or Brown Swiss-Holstein, or a three-way rotational cross of the three breeds. Most people would start with a Holstein base.

Now a dairy extension specialist at the University of Kentucky, he suggests Canadians consider Holstein-Ayrshire. He points out the high quality of Canadian Ayrshires and the fact that the Agriculture Canada study showed a positive maternal effect due to the Ayrshire line.

The French breeds Montbeliarde and Normande have been used in some U .S. programs. There are large populations of both these breeds in France, and they are recorded and have a progeny proving program. The Montbeliarde is favoured for cheese production due to the high proportion of protein in its milk. The Normande is considered dual purpose, heavier and not as tall as the Montbeliarde. It gives less milk with higher components.

Provincial Average Preformance by Breed-Publishable Records
Breed Records % of Records 305 Day Production
Milk Fat Protein
Holstein
103,390

91.5%

9355

346

300
Jersey
6,044

5.4%

6313

306

241
Ayrshire
2,094

1.9%

7429

293

245
Brown Swiss
698

0.6%

7990

322

279
Guernsey
532

0.5%

6212

279

217
M. Shorthorn
175

0.2%

6482

242

215
Canadienne
13

0.0%

4360

188

155
Ontario
112,946


9130

341

294

Ontario DHI Progress Report, 2001


Breed Records Milk Fat % (kg) Protein % Height at Withers Weight (kg)
Montbeliarde
338,215

7,285

3.86%

3.42%

145 cm

600-700
Normande
286,307

6,595

4.42%

3.59%

140 cm

700-800

INRA, France

This article first appeared in the October 2002 Ruminations column of the Ontario Milk Producer

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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun May 13, 2012 7:07 pm

Eddie, great squirrel story! I was hoping to crack 200 by the weekend. MK was counting on it. Sorry ran out of time.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun May 13, 2012 8:31 pm

moemantha wrote:
great reading, wonder if you could explain MK why the linebreds would be to ugly to look at to want to picture.

this cow produced



when bred to a son of this cow



whose paternal grand dam was this cow



identical twin bulls not pictured; semen is for sale...does it matter what the bulls look like if cows like those pictured are an objective?



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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun May 13, 2012 8:54 pm

Dylan,
could it be worthwhile for parent stock to be separated from production stock in the dairy industry...hmmm, well, maybe this article answers that...yes!
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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun May 13, 2012 10:14 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Dylan,
could it be worthwhile for parent stock to be separated from production stock in the dairy industry...hmmm, well, maybe this article answers that...yes!


yes!

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moemantha



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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun May 13, 2012 10:34 pm

MKeeney wrote:
moemantha wrote:
great reading, wonder if you could explain MK why the linebreds would be to ugly to look at to want to picture.
regression...those who have not seen regression have either not inbred close or long enough or both...

Hmmm, cows look good. So the bulls from these intense matings show effects of regression but the cows don't?
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Mon May 14, 2012 2:36 am

moemantha wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
moemantha wrote:
great reading, wonder if you could explain MK why the linebreds would be to ugly to look at to want to picture.
regression...those who have not seen regression have either not inbred close or long enough or both...

Hmmm, cows look good. So the bulls from these intense matings show effects of regression but the cows don't?

yes, the bulls are either showing effects of inbreeding or maybe they are just damn sorry....how would one know? Will`s bulls look good; are they good bulls, or just showing the effects of heterosis that won`t be passed to ensuing generations?
only the dna knows for sure?
as for the cows, they are not as tightly bred...
since I wonder if Will has got this far reading, I repeat...

How can a cow herd produce consistency when they are the consequence of continual change...a sorted by-product of different types. We seem to be so wrapped up measuring EPD, turning the generations so rapidly to get a

higher set of numbers, that we cannot possibly know what profound effects these cattle being produced en masse may have down the road on the basic unmeasured maternal traits and environmental adaptability.

We have become accustomed to the mind-set that we can cull away our problems- but the more we want each animal to do, the more we sort. Ultimately, a cow-calf producer`s economic losses from the sorted culls has to be deducted from the increased value produced by the keepers. The purebred breeder gets enough premium from his keepers to afford the sort, not so for the commercial producer. So I believe at some point in time, some breeders will have to establish and stick with a type for where it all begins...the cow; others will breed complimentary male lines in a coordinated effort to reduce the sort.

The purpose of a purebred is to offer more predictability or continuity generation after generation. If the objective is to improve product consistency and do it more efficiently without sacrifice to the production end, the industry must look at what the rest of agriculture is doing and forego the persistant habits of the past trying to cram all the beneficial traits into one super parent. The dairy people traded beefiness for milk. The pork people finally accepted the genetic reality that the mother pig could not do her best job and also be the meatiest.

I remain more convinced than ever that the industry will ultimately stabilize, not mongrelize, male and female parent lines designed for hybrid production.

Larry Leonhardt



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