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Will



Posts : 220
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Another new guy   Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:45 am

Another new guy. Tried to get on in the past but never could. Figured I was Unwanted! Have a hard time fitting in most place but I'm as far from registered mainstream as you can get. EPD'S are a joke. Can not believe people can buy into BS like that. Raise hybrid bulls and believe in outcrossing but Keeney's corner has made me think about maternal first and linebreeding. I like to think and I enjoy a good debate. Am really busy right now but always seem to find time to surf a bit. I'm going to hit send and see if I have this figured out.
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Will



Posts : 220
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:49 am

Did it! Now I'm affraid
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MKeeney
Admin


Posts : 4605
Join date : 2010-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:53 am

Welcome Will, enjoyed our chat the other day; thx so much for calling with Sale well-wishes; made my day...almost as much as how you make my day at Advantage antagonizing the ones who say...

look at me; I`m truly one of the great ones Exclamation Exclamation Wink Wink
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Will



Posts : 220
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:00 pm

Thanks MK. Like to have a good debate now and than. Interesting group of people you have. Learn alot and always something to think about.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:10 am

Willl wrote:
Thanks MK. Like to have a good debate now and than. Interesting group of people you have. Learn alot and always something to think about.
Will,
let`s debate your composites, crossbreds, mongels, whatever people call them, based on their love or contempt...
I read your mention of linebreeding " what you have" and others suggestions for you to make your own breed etc...I contend you should linebred the pieces you make the cross with, rather than linebreeding the cross...the seed corn we plant is crossed, but the pieces are inbred...what do you think?
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Will



Posts : 220
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:01 am

Good idea. How many generations does it take to make a new breed ? And make it consistant? I think it depends on the inputs used along the way. Do not know much about seed corn. Mentioned the other day to my son I sure wish we had some semen on some of our past herdbulls now that we are positive that they had more to offer than just carcass and growth. They also left us some tremendous long lasting daughters with very good udders and mothering ability. Manybe the best way to bring an old herdbull back to the program, even if you had semen, is to use one of his proven daughters. Maybe? Do not know much about linebreeding have always been an outcrosser but find information on this site interesting. It makes sense but how many throwaways will I get. How many pounds will I and my customers give up linebreeding to get the consistency I feel we already have. Is there in breeding depression? I think so but an bot positive. We have very few now but am having a serious problem finding the new bloodlines needed to move forward.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:15 am

Willl wrote:
Good idea. How many generations does it take to make a new breed ? And make it consistant? I think it depends on the inputs used along the way. Do not know much about seed corn. Mentioned the other day to my son I sure wish we had some semen on some of our past herdbulls now that we are positive that they had more to offer than just carcass and growth. They also left us some tremendous long lasting daughters with very good udders and mothering ability. Manybe the best way to bring an old herdbull back to the program, even if you had semen, is to use one of his proven daughters. Maybe? Do not know much about linebreeding have always been an outcrosser but find information on this site interesting. It makes sense but how many throwaways will I get. How many pounds will I and my customers give up linebreeding to get the consistency I feel we already have. Is there in breeding depression? I think so but an bot positive. We have very few now but am having a serious problem finding the new bloodlines needed to move forward.

eventually, the only thing that works is consistent renewal...
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:11 pm

Please explain consistent renewal.
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:19 pm

Welcome Willl with 3 L'S Hold on for the ride and when you fall off get back up and get on again. Laughing Laughing
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Will



Posts : 220
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:12 pm

Thanks. Had a tough time getting on. Would not take Will or any other name so for the heck of it I typed in Willl and what the heck it took it.. Three l's instead of two. One L more than LL. Not sure yet if that is good or not. Smile
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Dylan Biggs



Posts : 392
Join date : 2011-03-07

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:16 pm

Willl wrote:
Good idea. How many generations does it take to make a new breed ? And make it consistant? I think it depends on the inputs used along the way. Do not know much about seed corn. Mentioned the other day to my son I sure wish we had some semen on some of our past herdbulls now that we are positive that they had more to offer than just carcass and growth. They also left us some tremendous long lasting daughters with very good udders and mothering ability. Manybe the best way to bring an old herdbull back to the program, even if you had semen, is to use one of his proven daughters. Maybe? Do not know much about linebreeding have always been an outcrosser but find information on this site interesting. It makes sense but how many throwaways will I get. How many pounds will I and my customers give up linebreeding to get the consistency I feel we already have. Is there in breeding depression? I think so but an bot positive. We have very few now but am having a serious problem finding the new bloodlines needed to move forward.

Willl, how far "forward" do you need to go beyond "some tremendous long lasting daughters with very good udders and mothering ability"?

Can you go beyond "tremendous long lasting daughters with very good udders and mothering ability" without giving something else up. How much can we ask for with in the biological constraints of the species and our environment, natural and geographic?

What would be wrong with stabilizing the genetic order of "some tremendous long lasting daughters with very good udders and mothering ability" by close breeding and making them renewable, repeatable, and reliable?

Maybe you are looking for the pair of glasses that happen to be sitting on your nose.

Glad to have you here Willl to add to the discussion.

DB, slowly realizing that going down the road of percieved perpetual progress may leave some unrecognized treasures behind and get one to a destination called remorse. Perpetual genetic progress, the mantra of the mainstream, the land of genetic chaos, where the outcross dressed up in illusory GDP's masquerades as the pinnacle of funtional progress.

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:25 pm

Will wrote:
Thanks. Had a tough time getting on. Would not take Will or any other name so for the heck of it I typed in Willl and what the heck it took it.. Three l's instead of two. One L more than LL. Not sure yet if that is good or not. Smile
Will, you are now a 2L Will...same polemicist as you were before though Smile Newton`s third law seems to apply to breeding quite well...for every action; there is an equal and opposite reaction...of course, all actions and reactions have different values and costs that change from time to time...I`m convinced the only overall lasting efficiency of production comes from a system; not individuals...
if we could build a car that runs faster cheaper, we would need the same parts to make another car, or to repair the first...non-fitting parts halt an assembly line...
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:40 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Will wrote:
Thanks. Had a tough time getting on. Would not take Will or any other name so for the heck of it I typed in Willl and what the heck it took it.. Three l's instead of two. One L more than LL. Not sure yet if that is good or not. Smile
Will, you are now a 2L Will...same polemicist as you were before though Smile Newton`s third law seems to apply to breeding quite well...for every action; there is an equal and opposite reaction...of course, all actions and reactions have different values and costs that change from time to time...I`m convinced the only overall lasting efficiency of production comes from a system; not individuals...
if we could build a car that runs faster cheaper, we would need the same parts to make another car, or to repair the first...non-fitting parts halt an assembly line...

And when we put those high horse power engines to work. THEY COST MONEY.
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tulip



Posts : 39
Join date : 2011-08-28

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:06 am

Hey! does that mean I could have my real screen name back?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:23 am

tulip wrote:
Hey! does that mean I could have my real screen name back?
I can probably help on that...what was it?
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Will



Posts : 220
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:51 am

D Biggs, thanks. I'll be the first to saying I'm still learning and I like it that way. I take everything as far as I can. I know and have proven to myself that heterosis is a powerful tool. Crossbred cows are just better cows than purebreds on the average. Now I want to find out, on a limited basis, if I giveup anything by linebreeding or inbreeding. Maybe by linebreeding I can improve the teeth in my cows so they last a year or more longer, but really do I need to have my cows last past 12 years. If I am doing my job the hiefer calves born into the program should and better be better than their mothers and grandmothers and right now they appear to be. No desire to increase my cow numbers.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:55 am

Will wrote:
D Biggs, thanks. I'll be the first to saying I'm still learning and I like it that way. I take everything as far as I can. I know and have proven to myself that heterosis is a powerful tool. Crossbred cows are just better cows than purebreds on the average. Now I want to find out, on a limited basis, if I giveup anything by linebreeding or inbreeding. Maybe by linebreeding I can improve the teeth in my cows so they last a year or more longer, but really do I need to have my cows last past 12 years. If I am doing my job the hiefer calves born into the program should and better be better than their mothers and grandmothers and right now they appear to be. No desire to increase my cow numbers.

define better...is there an optimum cow in your environment?
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:59 am

MK, I also believe in a system. I also believe for every action their is a reaction. Glad to be a two LL Will. Polemic- the art or practice of disputation. Straight from Webster. Gotta run, wish my neighbors thought I was playing. cheers
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:45 am

Yes I think there is a optimum cow for my environment. I am sure an optimun cow is different at my place compared to yours. Have do you find the best optimum cow if you do not push the envelope so to speak? Better is better for everything from fertility to keeping ability, to mothering ability to pounds weaned to longevity. Interested in average but at a higher average than the previos average. I want more output from my cows without raising the input and maternal heterosis is the main tool to get that accomplished.
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EddieM



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Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:10 pm

Will wrote:
Yes I think there is a optimum cow for my environment. I am sure an optimun cow is different at my place compared to yours. Have do you find the best optimum cow if you do not push the envelope so to speak? Better is better for everything from fertility to keeping ability, to mothering ability to pounds weaned to longevity. Interested in average but at a higher average than the previos average. I want more output from my cows without raising the input and maternal heterosis is the main tool to get that accomplished.

Will, pushing the envelope on cows is like wanting women to look like linebackers. Do you really want more output from the cow or more return on the calf? So far, you have one tool, heterosis, in your tool box. Are you sure that is the only tool or just the only one that you have used so far?
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Will



Posts : 220
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:12 pm

I want both. More output without more input and more return for the calf. How do you know your limits if you do not "push it." Optimum at my ranch changes from year to year. Depends if it rains or not. Heterosis is just one tool in my tool box. What tools do you have in your toolbox?
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Gus



Posts : 35
Join date : 2010-10-10
Location : Southeast Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:41 am

Will wrote:
What tools do you have in your toolbox?

A rusty crescent wrench, a hammer and a broken tipped screw driver.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:05 am

Will wrote:
I want both. More output without more input and more return for the calf. How do you know your limits if you do not "push it." Optimum at my ranch changes from year to year. Depends if it rains or not. Heterosis is just one tool in my tool box. What tools do you have in your toolbox?
adjusting maternal genetics is a ten year process...adjusting cow numbers to the grass available is a yearly, even monthly management decision...why take a sledge hammer to adjust a 1/2 inch nut on a bolt? the "How do you know your limits if you do not "push it." sounds like registered promotion jargon...if the average of the herd was at the limit; half is over it...how do you measure cow input? this is a business that measures output, and has no completely reliable way to measure input...

I`m all for utilizing heterosis; but there must be a process of control that utilizes heterosis in producing replication...I`m even favorable toward crossbred{composite bulls called by their real name} bulls; because to create usefull ones properly, demands closer bred, PURELINE PARENT STOCK...

the current Simm-Angus to Simm-Angus to produce more Simm-Angus is little more than selecting and creating a new broader based breed with more variation that over time diminishes deliverable heterosis and predictabilty to the commerial producer...
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:21 am

Will wrote:
I want both. More output without more input and more return for the calf. How do you know your limits if you do not "push it." Optimum at my ranch changes from year to year. Depends if it rains or not. Heterosis is just one tool in my tool box. What tools do you have in your toolbox?

Probably not a cattleman in the country who has not already pushed the top limits and had cows come back open after some impressive weaning weights on the calf crop. So, you already know your upper limit and I do too. I have seen your comments on advantage discussing big REA and such. Are you really selling heterosis or cattle with extra growth or larger mature size? The tool at this site is fixed lines for maternal use.
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Another new guy   Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:48 am

MK, I would think adjusting maternal genetics is a life time project. Ten years is not long enough. I do not think I own a cow over the limit. I know I have several quite a ways under the limit. All my cows are treated the same except the old cows without good teeth. Goal is to raise the under limit cows up and have a very narrow low bell curve. I measure input by the type of feed I have to feed to keep the cows in shape. Its a ball park figure. Two breeds crossed are hybrids. Based on your last paragraph let's discuss you Sim-Angus program?
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