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 Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:49 pm

Hilly wrote:
This picture is not from Red Lodge Shocked but he is a brother to the cow in the first two pictures, and one of my mob bulls nearing his third birthday... He is a favourite of mine and bred more cows here this year than any bull on the place as he is dominant in the Shoshone mob and when with my older bigger bulls if he can’t wear them down through fighting he will beat them to the punch anyway.

\

Genetics are immortal...how I wish I had the Tru-line pic of Balboa`s head scanned ...
The inbred sire of this yearling bull that I see the same characteristics of Hilly`s bull was so
sorry looking I gave him to a customer if he promised to use him. Jon agreed; because of swine breeding; he was more experienced in inbreeding than I; and had no fear. I wanted to send Larry a pic of the sire; but he said, "don`t bother; he had seen plenty of them"
more later, but I am reminded of "oh ye, of little faith"...
Faith is to hope for things which are not seen, but which are true
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trevorgreycattleco

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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:26 pm

So how old does the 3 year old have to be to look like the older bull? Honestly this thread has made my head hurt. It goes against what I think I know. I guess I have never really seen a 3 year old bull like that. If he makes cows like that then I am barking up the wrong tree with what I have looked for in a bull. I can't argue with the fact that a bull that would rather be breeding instead of eating would look like that. I have never been around a bull with that kind of libido I guess. I am coming to the conclusion that hilly's bull is what a true young range bull should be and look like when breeding lots of cows. JMO but if that bull was to sell in Ohio, he would sell at the bottom if at all by his looks. Thanks for continuing to expand my little mind. Keep the pictures coming please. I love the views and the cattle and the talk.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:47 pm

trevorgreycattleco wrote:
So how old does the 3 year old have to be to look like the older bull? Honestly this thread has made my head hurt. It goes against what I think I know. I guess I have never really seen a 3 year old bull like that. If he makes cows like that then I am barking up the wrong tree with what I have looked for in a bull. I can't argue with the fact that a bull that would rather be breeding instead of eating would look like that. I have never been around a bull with that kind of libido I guess. I am coming to the conclusion that hilly's bull is what a true young range bull should be and look like when breeding lots of cows. JMO but if that bull was to sell in Ohio, he would sell at the bottom if at all by his looks. Thanks for continuing to expand my little mind. Keep the pictures coming please. I love the views and the cattle and the talk.

I think a lot of people have been barking up the wrong trees! As you say that type of bull goes against the perceived wisdom of what a "good bull" looks like. My head hurts too - from beating it on the wall because it took me so long to realise what experience has shown me. My Dad bought a couple of cheap bulls when I was a kid - ugly looking bulls but you know they bred us the best females we ever had - commercial cows that nearly all lasted into their mid teens. They were uglier than Hilly's bull but there was a similarity of type. I have selected many bulls over the years that I thought to be "better" bulls - they looked "better" but their daughters were worse. This whole Shoshone strain/type experience is a revelation to me - and i'm loving it Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:50 pm

For some reason I don't fully understand myself it is easy for me to see cattle of different types as compared with humans of different types. The young bull of Hillys reminds me of a young track & field athlete. Masculine but not massive as least as of yet. My old Northern Improvement son looked like Hilly's bull at about that same age, that's why I could buy him cheap.($900) By 5, he looked like the big bull in the tall grass and everyone around wanted him. He left me a whole field full of Bonsma type commercial daughters.

Charles

Just went back and caught up reading the thread, I didn't realise that I had said about the same thing as LL, sorry.
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:56 am

MKeeney wrote:

Genetics are immortal...how I wish I had the Tru-line pic of Balboa`s head scanned ...

Not sure if this was the picture you had in mind....

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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:26 am

Hilly wrote:
MKeeney wrote:

Genetics are immortal...how I wish I had the Tru-line pic of Balboa`s head scanned ...

Not sure if this was the picture you had in mind....

exactly...There was 38 years between the two "heads"..1944...1982...my lands, now 28 years later, the characteristics still shine through...Balboa was always so pretty in that upper left picture...for the "performance" viewers, 90 ratio at weaning; 90 at yearling...sired by the bull below him; who was also the sire of his dam...
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shilow angus



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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:02 am

dwight@steadfastbeef.com wrote:
For the life of me, I thought my cattle were rather maternal. Judging from these pictures my cattle are no where near that. Have I been breeding terminal cattle and didn't know it as our cattle are definately a different type? scratch
The bull pictured as my avatar is my comparison. In the picture he was three and had been on grass with 25 females for a month and a half. Single sire in the pasture. Maybe he looks different because he wasn't fighting other bulls in a multiple sire breeding pasture. He actually put on weight while breeding cows.


I feel your pain....My cows and bulls are thicker than those pictured here...I expressed my concerns to mike on his recent visit....He said they where ok... Was he just being kind ? To correct this promblem I brought in a straight shoshone bull from mike...He looks like hilly's only taller...I think I will try a louie son.



Sincerly, Confused Tom G
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:29 am

the proper balance between paternal and maternal will be self-determined by each individuals unique variables...what`s important is that you know there is a difference...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:56 pm

the joust for dominance


the winning athlete takes a victory lap looking...


and gets his chance at genetic immortality


Wonder which half of his genotype was put forward?
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:08 am

I think these lyrics suggested to me as fitting for Larry by RRoss fit best under this topic...they apply to Hilly at a far younger age as well...

Eight years old with a floursack cape
Tied all around his neck
He climbed up on the garage
He's figurin' what the heck
Well, he screwed up his courage up so tight
That the whole thing come unwound
He got a runnin' start and bless his heart
He's headed for the ground
Well (yes) he's one of those who knows that life
Is just a leap of faith
Spread your arms and hold your breath
And always trust your cape
Now he's all grown up with a floursack cape
Tied all around his dreams
And he's full of spit and vinegar
And he's bustin' at the seams
Well, he licked his finger and he checked the wind
It's gonna be do or die
He wasn't scared of nothin' boys
He was pretty sure he could fly
Well (yes) he's one of those who knows that life
Is just a leap of faith
Spread your arms and hold your breath
And always trust your cape
Now he's old and gray with a floursack cape
Tied all around his head
He's still jumpin' off the garage
And will be till he's dead
All these years the people said
He was actin' like a kid
He did not know he could not fly
So he did
Well (yes) he's one of those who knows that life
Is just a leap of faith
Spread your arms and hold your breath
And always trust your cape
Well (yes) he's one of those who knows that life
Is just a leap of faith
Spread your arms and hold your breath
And always trust your cape
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OAK LANE FARM



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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:17 pm

MKeeney wrote:
35 heifers bred and 10 months of grass and maturity later

contrasted to

which bull to do you think would cover ground to breed your cows; and which bull
exhibits the Bonsma characteristics for fertility?
The Lodge of Volga bull covered close to 30 females as a yearling and more as a two. He is not a big bull but he is not real small either. The bull is typical of several Wye bulls that I have seen sire some really nice calves this fall. I was just out in the Badlands and saw a really nice set of heifer calves out of Morgan Hartman's Beral of Wye bull. The heifers were in a good commercial herd and had actually performed ahead of one of the Sinclair Ext bred bulls that would have considerably higher EPD levels. I have seen many bulls at Shoshone that would have a similar phenotype to the second bull.
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Sun Nov 07, 2010 6:47 pm

OAK LANE FARM wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
35 heifers bred and 10 months of grass and maturity later

contrasted to

which bull to do you think would cover ground to breed your cows; and which bull
exhibits the Bonsma characteristics for fertility?
The Lodge of Volga bull covered close to 30 females as a yearling and more as a two. He is not a big bull but he is not real small either. The bull is typical of several Wye bulls that I have seen sire some really nice calves this fall. I was just out in the Badlands and saw a really nice set of heifer calves out of Morgan Hartman's Beral of Wye bull. The heifers were in a good commercial herd and had actually performed ahead of one of the Sinclair Ext bred bulls that would have considerably higher EPD levels.
what would have been the difference in the WW EPD..15 LB? calves weighed or guessed? cow production historical differences accounted for ? why would Beral transmitt anything much different in growth than any other Wye bull? can we now extropolate and say Wye cattle grow faster than Sinclair cattle? I guess I`m just not much of a half-day evaluater of other peoples cattle anymore; preferring to stay home and breed the ones I own and know most about...

I have seen many bulls at Shoshone that would have a similar phenotype to the second bull.
though types, not names are important; the picture was handy for comparison at photobucket...you`re going to need to name a similiar Shoshone; so I can discern whether it`s my memory that`s gone to hell, or if you and I just see cattle types a lot differently...
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:07 pm

MKeeney wrote:
OAK LANE FARM wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
35 heifers bred and 10 months of grass and maturity later

contrasted to

which bull to do you think would cover ground to breed your cows; and which bull
exhibits the Bonsma characteristics for fertility?
The Lodge of Volga bull covered close to 30 females as a yearling and more as a two. He is not a big bull but he is not real small either. The bull is typical of several Wye bulls that I have seen sire some really nice calves this fall. I was just out in the Badlands and saw a really nice set of heifer calves out of Morgan Hartman's Beral of Wye bull. The heifers were in a good commercial herd and had actually performed ahead of one of the Sinclair Ext bred bulls that would have considerably higher EPD levels.
what would have been the difference in the WW EPD..15 LB? calves weighed or guessed? cow production historical differences accounted for ? why would Beral transmitt anything much different in growth than any other Wye bull? can we now extropolate and say Wye cattle grow faster than Sinclair cattle? I guess I`m just not much of a half-day evaluater of other peoples cattle anymore; preferring to stay home and breed the ones I own and know most about...

I have seen many bulls at Shoshone that would have a similar phenotype to the second bull.
though types, not names are important; the picture was handy for comparison at photobucket...you`re going to need to name a similiar Shoshone; so I can discern whether it`s my memory that`s gone to hell, or if you and I just see cattle types a lot differently...
I would guess the Sinclair bull was probably a +40 and Beral is probably +20 ww epd and yes I was guessing but it was obvious. The owners used the Beral bull primarily for calving ease and were surprised and impressed with the performance. I would guess some of the other Wye bulls might do the same thing. It was all heifers as the steers were gone. I wasn't off half day evalutating but I was delivering bulls and took the time to see the cattle. These folks spend a fair bit of time and money on buying the kind of bull they like. There were about 25 herd bulls to look at including several Monte Howrey sons of Shoshone cows including 6357. In a later post I will point out what I believe the features-strengths, weaknesses, similarities and differences are between bull like Lodge 816/ Beral and a typical Shoshone bull.
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:30 am

ok, then these Beral assertions were made off an hour`s visit?...my point is, how can you know so much about the differences in cattle performance and profitability based on a one-time visit at other producer`s operations?... from what in herd experience are you going to give us an appraisal of strengths and weaknesses of Shoshone or Wye bulls, or are you telling me you can do this from merely stopping by? for certain, I damn sure can`t...it takes about 5 years here for me to evaluate my own used sires, maybe more...but in the registered world of sales, we need quick evaluations; because tomorrow is another selling day...
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OAK LANE FARM



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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:03 am

MKeeney wrote:
ok, then these Beral assertions were made off an hour`s visit?...my point is, how can you know so much about the differences in cattle performance and profitability based on a one-time visit at other producer`s operations?... from what in herd experience are you going to give us an appraisal of strengths and weaknesses of Shoshone or Wye bulls, or are you telling me you can do this from merely stopping by? for certain, I damn sure can`t...it takes about 5 years here for me to evaluate my own used sires, maybe more...but in the registered world of sales, we need quick evaluations; because tomorrow is another selling day...
If your point Mike is that those were my half ass/half day observations you right. I was not promoting the idea that anyone buy any Beral semen but observing that the heifers were very nice as were the Lodge 816 heifers at Gary Funk's. You are right we know a lot more at 5 yrs and a whole lot more at 10 yrs than we do at weaning. More in herd -half ass observations later. I was the poster child-stay at home breeder - for a lot of years and that was fine. The danger in seeing too much is to do something impulsive based on a half day observation. This Fall's walk abouts have highlighted the value of Shoshone influenced breeding in a population of old Canadian genetics (Lookout Stock Farm), the value of selecting one type/line of cattle and working toward their improvement (Grassy Lanes Angus), the quality of calves some of the old lines/bulls are capable of producing ( Larson Bros Angus), and the predictable, practical value of moderate Angus genetics in building a top commercial herd ( Jeff and Audrey Scheiffer, Beach ND).
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Mon Nov 08, 2010 1:43 pm

I used to travel around a little, make proclamations about individuals I`d seen, maybe invest a few dollars in the same genetics, and most often reap far differing results. I finally realized I couldn`t seperate genetics from environment by looking, I didn`t know the sort I was being shown, and that the dam and grass has a lot more to do with looks at weaning than who the sire was. I even find it difficult to evaluate the difference in udder quality in mid-lactation in a set of daughters on a one day visit; and again, what was the sort?
I found that supposed superior individuals were soon forgotten for the next superior individual, and all I was doing was adding to the gossip of a failed sysyem based on illusion and hearsay. I find today nothing more disgusting than "breeders" asking opinions about this bull or that on the internet without a clue as to the creditability of the answering party....but then, what creditability do we have to be telling someone how good a bull or cattle are on a one moment in time observation?
Regretfully, I told a breeder the other day to not do this, and to do this instead in regard to breeding decisions...how stupid of me..his cattle, his investment, his ambitions/directions, and though he seemed to ask from confusion ...his place to come to his answer for his satisfaction; and his responsibility to learn he can`t please us all...and my responsibility to remember, Physician, heal thyself...
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:27 pm

Does this thread disprove Bonsma's assertion that the endocrine system's reaction to environment control morphology of the genotype?

Or is this individual not a good match to his environment(will take longer to show masculinity), but his progeny will better match and be of different phenotype?

Or am I interpreting Bonsma wrong?

The one thing I know is I'm totally confused.
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:46 pm

Sorry for the proclamations Mike. I guess I get a little over exhuberent when I observe what I think are decent cattle being raised by good cattlemen . I have used some Wye bulls similar to the Lodge son in my program and for the purposes of smaller (likely more efficient cows) and lighter birth I have been satisfied. While I am ok with some smaller cows in my herd I prefer something the might resemble the average cow you speak of. In a previous post I stated that I had seen many bulls at Larry's like the Lodge son. I meant to say some at Larry's like that bull. The first bull I used from Shoshone would have been very similar in maturity and phenotype to the Lodge bull. In my experience those bulls will make some usefull females but I would prefer a bull that would sire a little more performance in the males.
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:16 pm

Since this Bonsma analogy, keeps entering the conservation......I think I could spot a proper Bonsmaic cow, but what exactly does the Bonsma bull supposedly look like?
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:37 pm

OAK LANE FARM wrote:
Sorry for the proclamations Mike. I guess I get a little over exhuberent when I observe what I think are decent cattle being raised by good cattlemen . I have used some Wye bulls similar to the Lodge son in my program and for the purposes of smaller (likely more efficient cows) and lighter birth I have been satisfied. While I am ok with some smaller cows in my herd I prefer something the might resemble the average cow you speak of. In a previous post I stated that I had seen many bulls at Larry's like the Lodge son. I meant to say some at Larry's like that bull. The first bull I used from Shoshone would have been very similar in maturity and phenotype to the Lodge bull. In my experience those bulls will make some usefull females but I would prefer a bull that would sire a little more performance in the males.
If this is going to be about rising up beyond the status quo of the registered segment, to avoid the quagmire of traditional registered habits with its arbitrary monetary values, would it not be better to have a rule that no individual animal be publicly named, acclaimed or disclaimed .... a corn plant in a bean field is just another "weed".... ah well, my mind is always focused on the mortality of individuals but "life" goes on in one form or another..... I'm always reminding myself that the principles are exceedingly simple, the difficulties lie in the application in order to achieve a more lasting improvement in the genetic efficiency of beef production : )
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:40 pm

Bootheel wrote:
Since this Bonsma analogy, keeps entering the conservation......I think I could spot a proper Bonsmaic cow, but what exactly does the Bonsma bull supposedly look like?
and when does he look it? Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:02 pm

RobertMac wrote:
Does this thread disprove Bonsma's assertion that the endocrine system's reaction to environment control morphology of the genotype?

Or is this individual not a good match to his environment(will take longer to show masculinity), but his progeny will better match and be of different phenotype?

Or am I interpreting Bonsma wrong?

The one thing I know is I'm totally confused.
maybe we`re not confused; we just realize we don`t know Smile I know it`s just pictures Robert, but which of the two bulls do you prefer from what you can see in the picture? Don`t e shy; not liking my bull will just inspire me; I can`t wait to get him out with fall cows already Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:22 pm

I caught a little slip of keys, as conversation, and conservation are so similar.......but conserving the proper type is much harder than conversing it.....my little fun with language for the day Cool

Your bull, Mr. Keeney looks strikingly similar to a home raised 4 year old I kept for my own use.....I have been doubting his worth of late....definetly later maturing....... females, oldest are two, some nice yearlings, but maybe going to be too much cow.......once again, I still don't know a durn thing.
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:27 pm

Bootheel, I'll try to get something up on Bonsma soon...boss is home and I got to be sous chef...that means I clean up and do what I'm told.

Mike, the one thing I do know is that pictures rarely tell the true story of a bull/cow. I also know all my long yearlings look awkward and ugly right now, but come spring(after a winter of good grazing) they look pretty good...at least some...and start to show some masculinity...at least some of them. I like the structure of the first and the hair of the second...show me their scrotum and I can tell you if I would use them.
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:07 am

Quote :
....a home raised 4 year old I kept for my own use.....I have been doubting his worth of late....definetly later maturing....... females, oldest are two, some nice yearlings, but maybe going to be too much cow.......once again, I still don't know a durn thing.

I think we have all had the tendency to give an ugly duckling bull from a "good cow" a chance. It has just GOT TO work. One point I have definitely learned from Larry is that the background of an non-too-pretty bull needs to be that of known ancestry and tighter breeding if hope is to be in the air. Otherwise, Ol' Ugly will turn out to be a duckling out under one of the rims of the bell curve and will give pretty useless results as an outlier. I tried it once. Wish they had a hall of fame for a race horse looking bull and his stablemate daughters!!! Shocked Not an answer as much as a confession. Just don't tell anybody as it would be so-o-o-o embarassing!! Sad
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