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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:15 pm

good question Eddie...
Ron,
wouldn`t the best and most unbiased evaluation come running the two bulls together on the same cows, and seeing if we can discern phenotypically who sired which? the growth epds{genotype} are the same; will the phenotypic differences be expressed or the epds?
the scrotal would seem a question on 13, but who knows the background, pedigree, and purpose of the bull? only the breeder...so instead of giving us the traditional, why not just tell me "what that bull`s primary use should be"?
doesn`t what we see in that data actually just leave us in the dark for his breeding purpose?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:43 pm

Eddie said
And to answer a question, I think that going back to older bulls will increase variation


I think so too; and increase unknowns as well...50 years closed gene pool on the cattle; but not from a mating standpoint for Wye has had 3 or 4 or more guys calling the shots over the years...I don`t understand " ELIMAST", but I shouldn`t; pedigree or epds tells nothing about the characteristics he possessed that Eddie D might belooking for...gotta quiz Eddie D harder in Canada; been too easy on him Smile Eddie
I said a discussion for self-application...I see hellish variation {some on purpose} in the spring male calves here primarily on size; and a sire group that unexpectantly has more frame size and weight than I`ve had in years; not exciting; just unexpected... I do believe when I get heifer video done, you will see a very uniform heifer calf crop in type and size...
just rambling; becoming a nightly routine with a sorry basketball team this year Smile
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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:32 am

MKeeney wrote:
good question Eddie...
Ron,
wouldn`t the best and most unbiased evaluation come running the two bulls together on the same cows, and seeing if we can discern phenotypically who sired which? the growth epds{genotype} are the same; will the phenotypic differences be expressed or the epds?
the scrotal would seem a question on 13, but who knows the background, pedigree, and purpose of the bull? only the breeder...so instead of giving us the traditional, why not just tell me "what that bull`s primary use should be"?
doesn`t what we see in that data actually just leave us in the dark for his breeding purpose?

Why would that be the best way? Not trying to be difficult. I just don't understand the logic. We all have are preferences in bulls, but I would have to wait before I used the 13 bull. His calves might be peas in a pod and optimal, but I would let someone else prove that. If he turned out to be an outstanding or useful bull, I would eat my crow and learn another leason. What else is new? I think the 19 bull's calves would probably have more frame, better hair for my environment and probably more mature height since he was the largest framed of all the calves on a similar ration, but only calves on the ground would verify that. By the way, it does seem pretty dim, but maybe not pitch black dark. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:31 am

not difficult at all; may be even correct Smile I`ve long contended a closed herd reaches a point where it must use the "biggest and best" just to maintain the phenotypic average...Wye`s weaning weights etc have changed little over the last 30 years...same with Falloon...when you are locked into a limited genepool, does the primary goal become survival of the gene pool , or "improvement" {denoted by objective} of the genepool... is lot 19 a genetic outlier from the herd that "moves" the average? I doubt it...a better bull to use than 13? probably...
the greater question for the breeder with 30 years left...is this where you want your herd to end up? being questioned by outsiders as to your objective? can`t objectives be more clearly defined; even if the objective is limited, and more often accomplished?
is the promotion of $EN an example of fitting Procrustees Bed?
the bed being the modern day promotional data system that creates enough differing data that one cal fit his cattle into the bed somehow?
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:31 am

R V wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
good question Eddie...
Ron,
wouldn`t the best and most unbiased evaluation come running the two bulls together on the same cows, and seeing if we can discern phenotypically who sired which? the growth epds{genotype} are the same; will the phenotypic differences be expressed or the epds?
the scrotal would seem a question on 13, but who knows the background, pedigree, and purpose of the bull? only the breeder...so instead of giving us the traditional, why not just tell me "what that bull`s primary use should be"?
doesn`t what we see in that data actually just leave us in the dark for his breeding purpose?

Why would that be the best way? Not trying to be difficult. I just don't understand the logic. We all have are preferences in bulls, but I would have to wait before I used the 13 bull. His calves might be peas in a pod and optimal, but I would let someone else prove that. If he turned out to be an outstanding or useful bull, I would eat my crow and learn another leason. What else is new? I think the 19 bull's calves would probably have more frame, better hair for my environment and probably more mature height since he was the largest framed of all the calves on a similar ration, but only calves on the ground would verify that. By the way, it does seem pretty dim, but maybe not pitch black dark. Very Happy

Ron, I agree that having separate breeding groups would tell me more about the calves in the first year. What if I guess wrong on the sire of a calf in a multisire group? But it might help if one bull is less fertile to run them together.

But then it comes down to the fact that the calf crop from both bulls are total outcrosses to your or my herd. So, are the results able to be replicated with the next generation and which way will they go? It is always interesting to hear of folks bringing in an animal for a particular trait to improve their herd and then it takes generations to sort out the "good" and have it in the original type package.

Quote :
I`ve long contended a closed herd reaches a point where it must use the "biggest and best" just to maintain the phenotypic average...Wye`s weaning weights etc have changed little over the last 30 years...same with Falloon...when you are locked into a limited genepool, does the primary goal become survival of the gene pool , or "improvement" {denoted by objective} of the genepool

Does selecting the top to maintain the average not speak of a subaverage genetic average?
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OAK LANE FARM



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:32 am

MKeeney wrote:
not difficult at all; may be even correct Smile I`ve long contended a closed herd reaches a point where it must use the "biggest and best" just to maintain the phenotypic average...Wye`s weaning weights etc have changed little over the last 30 years...same with Falloon...when you are locked into a limited genepool, does the primary goal become survival of the gene pool , or "improvement" {denoted by objective} of the genepool... is lot 19 a genetic outlier from the herd that "moves" the average? I doubt it...a better bull to use than 13? probably...
the greater question for the breeder with 30 years left...is this where you want your herd to end up? being questioned by outsiders as to your objective? can`t objectives be more clearly defined; even if the objective is limited, and more often accomplished?
is the promotion of $EN an example of fitting Procrustees Bed?
the bed being the modern day promotional data system that creates enough differing data that one cal fit his cattle into the bed somehow?
$EN was an admission by the animal science community that performance and production have a cost. The majority of the seedstock industry has completely ignored the idea that increasing production and performance had any cost. Lot 19's and his siblings have been the outliers at Wye for the last three years. If the past is any indicator my guess is that the Valor cross is adding some level of heterosis. Many of the most influential bulls from the past were the result of crossing sires that complimented each other. After the Lundell/Father era at Wye I think it was a good thing that some of the semen from the past existed. In my opinion Wye and many of the breeders of Wye influenced cattle are too hung up on the past to improve the cattle they have.
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:47 am

It has been reported that the national WW has not increased in 10 years. Comparing the 90's to the 2000's levels shows a decrease in WW of 36 pounds a decline in calving rate by 1.3% and an average loss of $47.76 per head. How much more improvement can we take?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:00 pm

Increased WW genetic potential unmatched by increased nutritional resources is at best merely unchanged, but has potential for a full-fledged wreck...on the orther hand, I came home to "old Wye Angus" bulls {1976} and weighed my first weaning crop of calves on this place...not a calf weighed 400 lb actual...my bulls were tail enders, but damn sure not cheap {2250,1000, 2500} relative to what I made in those days...yes, the $1000 one was as good as the others...sooooooo

Has Wye run out of the needed variation to make the changes desired, and thus, gone back to create variation to move forward with selected pieces?
were the Angus of the Elimast era all the Aberdeen Angus that Tom Burke was challenging LL to make available to the registered Angus Hoopla of today by putting the Aberdeen back in Angus?
that letter still cracks me up to the nonsense of the breeding "business" Smile
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:24 pm

more thoughts from conversation with John Nyquist today...STABILITY comes first...if you have stability in a lineage, you can trial SOME of it in the "ambitious new combination" Sewell Wright mentions...but if the new doesn`t work, you have to that stability line to fall back on...seems many screw up something useful trying to make it ALL better...and end up lost...
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:00 pm

Holy cow Mike. You sure have a lot of nice things to say about that Powell Stability bull!!! The ambitious next step is Systematic. I had planned on Bullet, but he bit it, so now we have Blizzard to sweeten the pot.
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mikejd4020



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PostSubject: Wye Catalog   Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:05 pm

Dumb Question. Please help me understand this. How do they arrive at the stress score?
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:07 am

Kent Powell wrote:
Holy cow Mike. You sure have a lot of nice things to say about that Powell Stability bull!!! The ambitious next step is Systematic. I had planned on Bullet, but he bit it, so now we have Blizzard to sweeten the pot.

One of the lease cows I have here was Miserable - she was and she went Smile


mikejd4020 wrote:
Dumb Question. Please help me understand this. How do they arrive at the stress score?

How fast they exit the chute?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:01 am

mikejd4020 wrote:
Dumb Question. Please help me understand this. How do they arrive at the stress score?

by looking with the ultrasound how the ribeye is constructed...I hear the NFL and NBA may adopt the test ...if the testee keeps a straight face while being administered the test; they pass... Smile

Kent, I guess one man`s stability is another`s unwanted Smile

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OAK LANE FARM



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:50 am

mikejd4020 wrote:
Dumb Question. Please help me understand this. How do they arrive at the stress score?
The stress score is from the pic of the loin eye. If an animal has been sick or not thrived the marbling disappears from the top down and there is a distinct line. Supposedl it takes something pretty bad from a nutrition or sickness issue to influence this . The only thing I can tell you Mike is that most everyone that has Tallgrass ultrasound is left with a lot of feel good info. Almost seems too good to be true.
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:04 pm

Mike when you refer to John Nyquist about stability then move on with something else what is the purpose? If a population is good enough why screw with it and not just replicate it. Bob H
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mikejd4020



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PostSubject: Wye catalog   Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:43 pm

I guess that is kind of what I am getting at with my question to LL and response. You/we/me are happy with what would be termed in biology books as asexual reproduction. I don't see how there could be anything more like to like than that.




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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:55 pm

Bob H wrote:
Mike when you refer to John Nyquist about stability then move on with something else what is the purpose? If a population is good enough why screw with it and not just replicate it. Bob H

I agree...but we were discussing those who keep moving, and have nothing good/stabile enough to fall back to...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:56 pm

OAK LANE FARM wrote:
mikejd4020 wrote:
Dumb Question. Please help me understand this. How do they arrive at the stress score?
The stress score is from the pic of the loin eye. If an animal has been sick or not thrived the marbling disappears from the top down and there is a distinct line. Supposedl it takes something pretty bad from a nutrition or sickness issue to influence this . The only thing I can tell you Mike is that most everyone that has Tallgrass ultrasound is left with a lot of feel good info. Almost seems too good to be true.

yeah Wink

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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:05 pm

You will never make a closed cattle population into "peas in a pod"; you will always have some variation, which is necessary to maintain the population. And when it comes time to change something about the population, you may have no choice but to go get it somewhere else, if the "fix" doesn't exist in your genepool. Backing yourself into a corner by attempting to eliminate variation limits the opportunity to evolve through selection, and may result in extinction.

TD
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:26 pm

Must all opportunity to evolve be preserved in our own population?
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:33 am

Kent Powell wrote:
Must all opportunity to evolve be preserved in our own population?

Last summer, when you cleaned out the garage, weren't you tempted to throw away that old snow shovel?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:17 am

Tom D wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
Must all opportunity to evolve be preserved in our own population?

Last summer, when you cleaned out the garage, weren't you tempted to throw away that old snow shovel?

yes, I have been tempted to send Unwanted to town...but you can`t be too sure of anything when most everything genetic is a coin toss...so another year in the garage since at 6 years of age, we`ve barely scraped the paint off to see if what`s underneath will shine or rust...
as to peas in a pod, the functional TRULINE is the stablized center line, and the outlier above and below the line are close enough to center so that they are useful at least commercially , rather than culled...different than Falloon , using the outlier to move the center line up, and it would appear to me, different than Elimast, used to move the center line down...
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:01 pm

registration doesn`t amount to much if you establish a reputation...MO fellow out Jon and Kendra`s way sold 275 bred heifers {most all purchased} for $2290 last December...The heifers and bulls they were bred to had jumped through all the university hoops; he`s been selling heifers for some time so the hoop jumping must be creating a repeat customer for his heifers; ...I did not ask the culling rate...
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:59 pm

Tom D wrote:
You will never make a closed cattle population into "peas in a pod"; you will always have some variation, which is necessary to maintain the population. And when it comes time to change something about the population, you may have no choice but to go get it somewhere else, if the "fix" doesn't exist in your genepool. Backing yourself into a corner by attempting to eliminate variation limits the opportunity to evolve through selection, and may result in extinction.

TD

Tom, I think of a "line" as a closed population with increasing or above average average %IBC based on some common ancestors. But with the Wye herd, are we looking at a line or just a group where the sire choices have been limited?
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:55 am

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