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df



Posts : 549
Join date : 2010-09-28

PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:05 pm

robert wrote:
to engage in a solution you have to admit there is a problem, most of the 'corrective' mating stuff that is going on is little more than attempting to mask the problem for one more generation until another great fixer is created from the dysfunctional material available. Most of the hype around bulls involves portraying them as the next great leap forward, into what they are not quite sure but are sure as they can be that it is 'progress'......... Rolling Eyes

MK claims there is a problem. I am not involved in it enough to have an opinion.
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chocolate cow



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:17 pm

Apparently I'm the only commercial smuck on KC. Here's the deal in my world, df. My cows have seen only an Angus bull for 25 years. No other breed. I've got a few black baldies & a few red angus that have been purchased. Since 2001, I've used sons of Sitz Alliance 6595. Then, I went to grandsons of 6595 x EXT. I even thought I could add "quality" by buying heifers that were 8180 daughters. 8180 is the sire of Alliance. I threw in a little Larks Canyon to keep things from being too tightly bred. My virgin heifers were bred to an In Focus son. I figure that's as mainstream as anybody wants to admit to.

So, today, here's what I've got. 120 cows & 1st calf heifers that I cannot haul enough feed to. They look like they just got off the boat from Ethiopia. Our winter here was wonderfully mild. I pulled nearly all of my 1st calf heifers calves because they couldn't push the calves out. Remember the pictures of the sway backed, high tailed, pointy rear ends? Drive down any country road and REALLY look at the Angus cattle. In another week, I'm selling all of my heifer pairs because I refuse to put this crap into my herd. That's where the Gompert cow comes into play. She's my "cow gauge".

If the above isn't enough, for the past three years, I've had enough defective calves to get the attention of the AAA. I've sent boxes of deformed baby calves to Dr.Steffen in Nebraska. I've had hydro, curled legs & bulldog, snorter dwarfs. The dwarfs were compliments of a $5,250 bull that I HAD.TO.HAVE. That bull ruined 1/4 of my cow herd. The breeder wouldn't even talk to me when I tried to contact him. Pissed me off. Now, I realize it was the best thing that could have happened.


From Bruce Johnson's website:
"We have moved from the old art of breeding cattle, with a few facts, to the Holstein style, number based science of breeding cattle (where) the only thing that has been left out is nature."

Nature has been excluded from modern Angus.
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chocolate cow



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:58 pm

I can add more to this:

I buy over 1,000 light weight feeders, steers & heifers, yearly. They are Angus based calves. As a whole, they are very difficult to put gain on. Their nutritional requirements are high. I don't buy the top end nor big groups. Take that into consideration. They don't seem to convert very efficiently. I do worm, castrate, vaccinate & implant.

K-State had a "field day" awhile back. I asked Bob Weaber, extension beef specialist, what place in today's Angus breed did a bull like Sitz Upward have. The answer was, after some long thought, that his sons, as steers, -if their nutritional needs COULD be met- might possibly finish quicker. His daughters had no value as replacements.

Back outside to feed some more hungry cows.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:17 pm

chocolate cow wrote:
At the Terry Gompert dispersal sale in November, I bought a bred cow. A Lady Ida 92 of Volga. #16259914. Don't worry about the reg#.
This cow appealed to me at the sale. No other reason. I liked the way she looked. She now has a bull calf.
Here's what that $2,250 cow does for me: She is THE example of what I want to see everyday in my cows. She's a living, functioning reminder of how shitty my cows really are. I can pick her out from 1/2 mile away. She's what I'm trying to accomplish.

If others buy a cow, take her home and see what she looks like compared to Contrast, Connection, Upward, Image Maker, etc. Hopefully, they'll have that moment Idea . I won't criticize anyone for buying either a cow or bull that carries efficient genetics. I don't live in their world. It's not my job to tell them how to spend their money.

I remember the last 30 hd of trading cows Dad bought...little red-angusx senepol...people came from all over to buy them; never even looked at my black cows Sad
dad never cared what they looked like;
what their value was relative to the market was all that ever mattered...value matters to me now; i don`t care how pretty or good they are, if they cost too much...obviously, 2250 isn`t too much,,,,,22,500 ?? never in a million years...and yet everyday in the con game...

oh btw, the 30 cows made 5000 in 15 days...every night at feeding time, he`ll say "ya know, that`s a pretty good little cow there, and why,,,i bet she`s got a calf in her... Smile
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:21 pm

chocolate cow wrote:
Apparently I'm the only commercial smuck on KC. Here's the deal in my world, df. My cows have seen only an Angus bull for 25 years. No other breed. I've got a few black baldies & a few red angus that have been purchased. Since 2001, I've used sons of Sitz Alliance 6595. Then, I went to grandsons of 6595 x EXT. I even thought I could add "quality" by buying heifers that were 8180 daughters. 8180 is the sire of Alliance. I threw in a little Larks Canyon to keep things from being too tightly bred. My virgin heifers were bred to an In Focus son. I figure that's as mainstream as anybody wants to admit to.

So, today, here's what I've got. 120 cows & 1st calf heifers that I cannot haul enough feed to. They look like they just got off the boat from Ethiopia. Our winter here was wonderfully mild. I pulled nearly all of my 1st calf heifers calves because they couldn't push the calves out. Remember the pictures of the sway backed, high tailed, pointy rear ends? Drive down any country road and REALLY look at the Angus cattle. In another week, I'm selling all of my heifer pairs because I refuse to put this crap into my herd. That's where the Gompert cow comes into play. She's my "cow gauge".

If the above isn't enough, for the past three years, I've had enough defective calves to get the attention of the AAA. I've sent boxes of deformed baby calves to Dr.Steffen in Nebraska. I've had hydro, curled legs & bulldog, snorter dwarfs. The dwarfs were compliments of a $5,250 bull that I HAD.TO.HAVE. That bull ruined 1/4 of my cow herd. The breeder wouldn't even talk to me when I tried to contact him. Pissed me off. Now, I realize it was the best thing that could have happened.


From Bruce Johnson's website:
"We have moved from the old art of breeding cattle, with a few facts, to the Holstein style, number based science of breeding cattle (where) the only thing that has been left out is nature."

Nature has been excluded from modern Angus.

I bet the AAA never called the calves bulldog or snorter but found something else to blame it on. Who was the sire of the dams of the dwarfs? Did any of the alliance or 8180 cows have challenge calfs?

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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:41 pm

MKeeney wrote:
If Wye sold their bulls with pedigrees, epds, same data as now, but without transferable registration papers, what would an $8750 bull bring? would that be a more true measure of a bulls genetic worth?


Firstly, kudos to Mr. Keeney, and his new method of thought provoking discussions of the methodology of the the acceptable con-game. Acceptable con-games are okay in today's world. For that matter, unacceptable con-games are acceptable as well.

I probably should just keep my mouth or keyboard shut tonight, as my opinions on the actions of honor, honesty, trust, or acceptable behavior, is at an all time low. It's one of those days, a Friday the 13th kind of day, where you just need to beat the hell out of a conman.... and for the next bit, conmen had best cut a wide circle away from my path. This is not to say the people at Wye are conmen, but they do readily play the game of conmen.

Pyramid schemes are an accepted portion of reality today, so the ability to prosecute said activeties is voided. My view of the world today is rather negative, and started with a personal discussion of one of the Moneychanger's, with all the best cows, gathered from all over the world..... and my thoughts were ''Why must they still purchase the best cows from everyone else'''. The continual saga of gathering the outliers from all the outlaying lands, seems to never end. Today, I have no use for LIARs or OUTLIARs, whereever they may lay.


Bootheel, just mad
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:46 pm

chocolate cow wrote:
I can add more to this:

I buy over 1,000 light weight feeders, steers & heifers, yearly. They are Angus based calves. As a whole, they are very difficult to put gain on. Their nutritional requirements are high. I don't buy the top end nor big groups. Take that into consideration. They don't seem to convert very efficiently. I do worm, castrate, vaccinate & implant.

K-State had a "field day" awhile back. I asked Bob Weaber, extension beef specialist, what place in today's Angus breed did a bull like Sitz Upward have. The answer was, after some long thought, that his sons, as steers, -if their nutritional needs COULD be met- might possibly finish quicker. His daughters had no value as replacements.

Back outside to feed some more hungry cows.

Anytime you want to send Weaber back to MO, I'll take him!
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:18 am

PatB wrote:
chocolate cow wrote:
Apparently I'm the only commercial smuck on KC. Here's the deal in my world, df. My cows have seen only an Angus bull for 25 years. No other breed. I've got a few black baldies & a few red angus that have been purchased. Since 2001, I've used sons of Sitz Alliance 6595. Then, I went to grandsons of 6595 x EXT. I even thought I could add "quality" by buying heifers that were 8180 daughters. 8180 is the sire of Alliance. I threw in a little Larks Canyon to keep things from being too tightly bred. My virgin heifers were bred to an In Focus son. I figure that's as mainstream as anybody wants to admit to.

So, today, here's what I've got. 120 cows & 1st calf heifers that I cannot haul enough feed to. They look like they just got off the boat from Ethiopia. Our winter here was wonderfully mild. I pulled nearly all of my 1st calf heifers calves because they couldn't push the calves out. Remember the pictures of the sway backed, high tailed, pointy rear ends? Drive down any country road and REALLY look at the Angus cattle. In another week, I'm selling all of my heifer pairs because I refuse to put this crap into my herd. That's where the Gompert cow comes into play. She's my "cow gauge".

If the above isn't enough, for the past three years, I've had enough defective calves to get the attention of the AAA. I've sent boxes of deformed baby calves to Dr.Steffen in Nebraska. I've had hydro, curled legs & bulldog, snorter dwarfs. The dwarfs were compliments of a $5,250 bull that I HAD.TO.HAVE. That bull ruined 1/4 of my cow herd. The breeder wouldn't even talk to me when I tried to contact him. Pissed me off. Now, I realize it was the best thing that could have happened.


From Bruce Johnson's website:
"We have moved from the old art of breeding cattle, with a few facts, to the Holstein style, number based science of breeding cattle (where) the only thing that has been left out is nature."

Nature has been excluded from modern Angus.

I bet the AAA never called the calves bulldog or snorter but found something else to blame it on. Who was the sire of the dams of the dwarfs? Did any of the alliance or 8180 cows have challenge calfs?


you might ought to consider how PIC handles defects Pat..
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:26 am

Bootheel wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
If Wye sold their bulls with pedigrees, epds, same data as now, but without transferable registration papers, what would an $8750 bull bring? would that be a more true measure of a bulls genetic worth?


Firstly, kudos to Mr. Keeney, and his new method of thought provoking discussions of the methodology of the the acceptable con-game. Acceptable con-games are okay in today's world. For that matter, unacceptable con-games are acceptable as well.

I probably should just keep my mouth or keyboard shut tonight, as my opinions on the actions of honor, honesty, trust, or acceptable behavior, is at an all time low. It's one of those days, a Friday the 13th kind of day, where you just need to beat the hell out of a conman.... and for the next bit, conmen had best cut a wide circle away from my path. This is not to say the people at Wye are conmen, but they do readily play the game of conmen.

Pyramid schemes are an accepted portion of reality today, so the ability to prosecute said activeties is voided. My view of the world today is rather negative, and started with a personal discussion of one of the Moneychanger's, with all the best cows, gathered from all over the world..... and my thoughts were ''Why must they still purchase the best cows from everyone else'''. The continual saga of gathering the outliers from all the outlaying lands, seems to never end. Today, I have no use for LIARs or OUTLIARs, whereever they may lay.


Bootheel, just mad
Dozer been hung up again Joe...or is this totally cattle inspired? Smile
I`m with you; the games of rarity and chance and following the clamor of the crowd make me mad enough to laugh and make fun of them all Smile
these pot gutted, sway back back mainstream bulls weighing 1300 at a year with an 11 sq inch loin eye make me think that we materal creators are relying too greatly on the mainstream for terminal genetics to use on our cows...Jeff Mundorf`s Limmy looks more logical all the time; same for the Wagyu or a Wagyu deriviative in the quality grade direction...
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:47 am

Recorded some of the 5L sale at one time they had some nice cattle they have gone mainstream now and there were a lot of sway back sorry mainstream cattle that were no sales. the red's were better topped until everyone started to want everything. They got it just a different shade. Is it red ,yellow, or blue?
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:10 pm

MKeeney wrote:
you might ought to consider how PIC handles defects Pat..

What is PIC's policy on lethal defects in their breeding stock lines? How would their business do if a large portion of piglets died at birth or shortly there after from genetic challenges? The first challenge is to get healthy live animals on the ground all other traits are secondary to this. Very Happy Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:56 pm

PatB wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
you might ought to consider how PIC handles defects Pat..

What is PIC's policy on lethal defects in their breeding stock lines? How would their business do if a large portion of piglets died at birth or shortly there after from genetic challenges? The first challenge is to get healthy live animals on the ground all other traits are secondary to this. Very Happy Very Happy
do you think PIC doesn`t know that is first priority Pat? they test, but they do not terminate...but thing again, PIC has created something with predictability that would cost too much to throw the baby away with the bathwater...nothing has been created in the registered business that can`t be easily replaced or already exists...



Kobe/Waygu Western Australian bnls striploin- Marbling score 10- sold this week to PA casino at $74/lb. $1000 single subprimal.
Fried butter stick used as a chaser!




the above was sent to me with the notation that the recession is over...I look at it to prove where some Angus are going , someone is already there...and already better...
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:26 pm

MKeeney wrote:
PatB wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
you might ought to consider how PIC handles defects Pat..

What is PIC's policy on lethal defects in their breeding stock lines? How would their business do if a large portion of piglets died at birth or shortly there after from genetic challenges? The first challenge is to get healthy live animals on the ground all other traits are secondary to this. Very Happy Very Happy
do you think PIC doesn`t know that is first priority Pat? they test, but they do not terminate...but thing again, PIC has created something with predictability that would cost too much to throw the baby away with the bathwater...nothing has been created in the registered business that can`t be easily replaced or already exists...



Kobe/Waygu Western Australian bnls striploin- Marbling score 10- sold this week to PA casino at $74/lb. $1000 single subprimal.
Fried butter stick used as a chaser!




the above was sent to me with the notation that the recession is over...I look at it to prove where some Angus are going , someone is already there...and already better...

I have no interest in meat that is that heavily marbled.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:55 pm

typical registered breed reaction; neither do I...BUT WHAT ARE BREEDS FOR? to cross Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:11 pm

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:46 pm

if a person bought two random bulls from the Wye sale offering, ran them breeding cows together, what percentage of the calves could you sire identify without DNA?
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:52 am

MKeeney wrote:
if a person bought two random bulls from the Wye sale offering, ran them breeding cows together, what percentage of the calves could you sire identify without DNA?

Why? I guess I am asking the purpose after looking at the pictures, data and especially the steer carcass data. My opinion on your question: depends on the bulls that walked off of the trailer. Some sort would be visable on hair for some, some rear leg set for others, maybe some muscling differential in the rear leg. I like the type on two of the donor cows.
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:11 am

EddieM wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
if a person bought two random bulls from the Wye sale offering, ran them breeding cows together, what percentage of the calves could you sire identify without DNA?

Why? I guess I am asking the purpose after looking at the pictures, data and especially the steer carcass data. My opinion on your question: depends on the bulls that walked off of the trailer. Some sort would be visable on hair for some, some rear leg set for others, maybe some muscling differential in the rear leg. I like the type on two of the donor cows.

yes Eddie, a leading question...50 years a closed gene pool..."top" 30 selected...mated to cows, so you only see 50% of the gene expression...I doubt I could beat 50% very much...so why all the pedigree? why all the individual data? why all the likely usual higher price for a few rather than the average?
poor job of wye breeding? my dis-illusionist views? public buyers still dreaming of miracles? dreams perhaps sold by the sale manager?

You have just dined, and however scrupulously the slaughterhouse is concealed in the graceful distance of miles, there is complicity.
RALPH WALDO EMERSON

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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:56 pm

MKeeney wrote:

yes Eddie, a leading question...50 years a closed gene pool..."top" 30 selected...mated to cows, so you only see 50% of the gene expression...I doubt I could beat 50% very much...so why all the pedigree? why all the individual data? why all the likely usual higher price for a few rather than the average?
poor job of wye breeding? my dis-illusionist views? public buyers still dreaming of miracles? dreams perhaps sold by the sale manager?



Why not? They appear to be a credible program and the numbers appear honest (and not very exciting to most registered-type/hype/performance breeders). Maybe it helps determine the middle and the outliers for those willing to spend money. You apparently read through some of the data. At least enough to make this post... and you have sworn off the registered part of the business. I think it is inherent that most of us like data. I just don't know why.

Dreams are pretty special too! I would hate to lose them and even worse, take them away from the young. Where will the next breeders come from?

I know you are still a dreamer and I think you do a good job helping young breeders avoid nightmares. That is a pretty important job and is why some of us that still want to do our own thing come here. cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:11 pm

what is name of the last outlier bull for progeny Wye produced, RV?

I skim the data on maybe 1/3 the bulls...for me a Wye bull should be a Wye bull, given the herd history which is very credible in my experience...
you like credible data... but you don`t know why? could it be we are afraid to break with tradition...it might hurt sales? I don`t think that is inherent; I think we are taught to like data; even meaningless data...it allows marketers to say "we measure more characteristics than any other breeder...
Isn`t the most credible, admired, and sufficient "data" of this herd is the fact it has been closed for 50 years...and cannot produce an outlier even if it tried?
if you can`t produce a genetic outlier, can one produce a genetic failure from the same genepool?
Dreams of what...$$$$??... would be consistant with the term breeder? Why would we wish youth to be wasted on dreams only to learn reality too late to apply reality?
this ain`t 64 questions...but I`m not done yet Smile



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LCP



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:37 pm

MKeeney wrote:

if you can`t produce a genetic outlier, can one produce a genetic failure from the same genepool?

Thanks for articulating that Mike. It is one of the things that attracts me to this breeding philosophy. Picking out breeding stock just became a whole lot less scary.
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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:27 am

MKeeney wrote:
what is name of the last outlier bull for progeny Wye produced, RV?

I skim the data on maybe 1/3 the bulls...for me a Wye bull should be a Wye bull, given the herd history which is very credible in my experience...
you like credible data... but you don`t know why? could it be we are afraid to break with tradition...it might hurt sales? I don`t think that is inherent; I think we are taught to like data; even meaningless data...it allows marketers to say "we measure more characteristics than any other breeder...
Isn`t the most credible, admired, and sufficient "data" of this herd is the fact it has been closed for 50 years...and cannot produce an outlier even if it tried?
if you can`t produce a genetic outlier, can one produce a genetic failure from the same genepool?
Dreams of what...$$$$??... would be consistant with the term breeder? Why would we wish youth to be wasted on dreams only to learn reality too late to apply reality?
this ain`t 64 questions...but I`m not done yet Smile




Smile Sorry, I was in the mood to stir the pot a little in fun. I don't know the Wye herd very well, but maybe Franchester would fit the bill. He probably wasn't the last. I don't think we have to be taught to like data. It comes naturally, but I agree it is fostered and has gotten out of hand. My poorly made point was that the data was unimpressive by today's "standards," but real world data. The credibility and history are what is the most interesting to me, but I suspect the data and the pedigrees would be helpful in placing the bulls. Data more for paternal traits and pedigrees more for maternal traits.

Genes are random and there are still genes present for good and bad traits and they still line up randomly, so I think there will still be outliers, but their occurence should be decreased and there should be more consistency. Another question for you, since Wye appears to be going back in the gene pool and using older bulls more often, does that throw in more or less variation??? Those bulls would be closer genetically to the outside/European herds than the later generations of bulls with closed breeding.

Dreams are part of youth and why youth is "wasted on the young." Why give them up? Dreams are what get us started and reality is where we end. They don't have to be far apart. A little guidance from the "experienced" is usually helpful, but too much usually crushes creativity.

Ron, thinking that true success and contentment also appear to be "optimal" and not "maximal."

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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:59 am

please don`t ever apologize here ...the questions are inspired by whoever...Wye, DD, etc...but ultimately, they are for self -application ; though the human nature responses when something is called into question...names like idiot, ass, fool...probably explain things better Smile

You never win an argument until they attack your person...Taleb


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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:14 am

R V wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
what is name of the last outlier bull for progeny Wye produced, RV?

I skim the data on maybe 1/3 the bulls...for me a Wye bull should be a Wye bull, given the herd history which is very credible in my experience...
you like credible data... but you don`t know why? could it be we are afraid to break with tradition...it might hurt sales? I don`t think that is inherent; I think we are taught to like data; even meaningless data...it allows marketers to say "we measure more characteristics than any other breeder...
Isn`t the most credible, admired, and sufficient "data" of this herd is the fact it has been closed for 50 years...and cannot produce an outlier even if it tried?
if you can`t produce a genetic outlier, can one produce a genetic failure from the same genepool?
Dreams of what...$$$$??... would be consistant with the term breeder? Why would we wish youth to be wasted on dreams only to learn reality too late to apply reality?
this ain`t 64 questions...but I`m not done yet Smile

Smile Sorry, I was in the mood to stir the pot a little in fun. I don't know the Wye herd very well, but maybe Franchester would fit the bill. He probably wasn't the last. I don't think we have to be taught to like data. It comes naturally, but I agree it is fostered and has gotten out of hand. My poorly made point was that the data was unimpressive by today's "standards," but real world data. The credibility and history are what is the most interesting to me, but I suspect the data and the pedigrees would be helpful in placing the bulls. Data more for paternal traits and pedigrees more for maternal traits.

Genes are random and there are still genes present for good and bad traits and they still line up randomly, so I think there will still be outliers, but their occurence should be decreased and there should be more consistency. Another question for you, since Wye appears to be going back in the gene pool and using older bulls more often, does that throw in more or less variation??? Those bulls would be closer genetically to the outside/European herds than the later generations of bulls with closed breeding.

Dreams are part of youth and why youth is "wasted on the young." Why give them up? Dreams are what get us started and reality is where we end. They don't have to be far apart. A little guidance from the "experienced" is usually helpful, but too much usually crushes creativity.

Ron, thinking that true success and contentment also appear to be "optimal" and not "maximal."


Ron, we mutually do not know each other so this is a generic type discussion. But what if the trailer backed up to your pen and dropped off #13 and #19 bulls. How would you use them, how would you make money by using them, what type cows would you breed them to and how would you market the calves? And can we assume that a closed population has eliminated all problems or is that a hope? I think that we would know more if we knew the cull rate of the herd and the reasons for the culling than by just seeing the "survivors". Are certain crosses avoided? And to answer a question, I think that going back to older bulls will increase variation.

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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:22 pm

EddieM wrote:

Ron, we mutually do not know each other so this is a generic type discussion. But what if the trailer backed up to your pen and dropped off #13 and #19 bulls. How would you use them, how would you make money by using them, what type cows would you breed them to and how would you market the calves? And can we assume that a closed population has eliminated all problems or is that a hope? I think that we would know more if we knew the cull rate of the herd and the reasons for the culling than by just seeing the "survivors". Are certain crosses avoided? And to answer a question, I think that going back to older bulls will increase variation.


This year it wouldn't be helpful as I have sold several cows and have kept back several young bulls that I want to use first. I would probably wait a year before I did anything with the #13 bull as his hair coat does not look favorable for fescue, but he might slick off and be fine. If so, next fall I would put him in with a few commercial cows and few older registered cows and work from there. The #19 bull appears to have a better hair coat and if he slicks off well, I would use him on a few second calf cows and maybe a heifer or two. The bulls would be reevaluated after their breeding season to see how they held up with light work and then would evaluate the calves while young to see if they get a second breeding season. I would plan on saling the steers commercially the first couple of years and hope the heifers made it to the replacement pen. They would need to for the bulls to stick around.

I don't think that a closed population ever eliminates all problems, but a well bred closed population should have fewer problems.
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