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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:43 am

Larry Leonhardt wrote:
MKeeney wrote

Quote :
Larry, Larry, quite contrary, if you had not learned to be a non-traditional cattle breeder there; you would have learned to be a non-traditional cattle breeder elsewhere...it was in the genes , your genes, my friend  cheers


You are right my friend Razz , but I would still be floundering.   At that time, Wye was the ONLY  herd I knew of that had my "ideal" female standard stamped in my mind.   You more than anyone knows how rare that "standard" was ... and still is ... but now after only 35 years you also have many of "them" in your herd, thanks to Wye for saving us both many more years   cheers



so did this cow come to be a standard because of open records, sale manager footnotes, pedigrees, or prior cattle experience? was she created by records, sale manager footnotes, pedigrees, or prior cattle experience or by chance? why is her kind still rare?

reading the catalog, which bull or bulls from this year`s sale is more likely to make a high % of these cows?

the  highest ratio calf at weaning,

the second largest REA at 14.31.

. the highest cow energy value at $50.98

top tier for all carcass traits

A full brother sold in our 2013 sale for $4,000.

an extremely deep bodied bull
the third tallest bull at 49.4 inches.

the tallest bull measured at 50.4 inches and gained 3.8 pounds per day

the second tallest bull measured at 50.3 inches

Cedric daughter with a weaning ratio of 111 on 2 calves.

second heaviest calf at weaning

the heaviest at one
year weighing 1163 pounds.

combines a light birth
weight of 60 pounds , with a weaning ratio of 112 and yearling of 107

tied for second with an
ADG of 3.8 pounds per day.

second largest ribeye at 14.29 inches.

exhibits the length and
height of his sire

Our second highest weaning ratio of 122 and highest ADG at 3.9 pounds per day,

second tallest bull at 49.2 inches.

she has weaned two calves at a ratio of 110.

three sons who sold for a total of
$18,850

We have sold three of her
sons for a total of $10,500.

tremendous spring of rib and lots of
milk, as evidence by her weaning ratio of 110 on three calves

. Luthien is sired by Fornson out of that old Federal daughter Leonia
of Wye. Leonia is a daughter of Luria of Wye 1022, a Prince of Malpas daughter.
this means making more Luria`s??



the above notes remind me of reading the first pages of an SAV catalog; never got much farther than that..
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:31 am

Luria of wye has a better udder than alot of the high dollar cows in todays catalogs.
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:34 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
EddieM wrote:
How can you change the 1985 Wye herd average of a particular trait or traits to be more desirable in 2014?

I know it wasn't the intend of your post Eddie but why would you want to change the population? What would make it more "desirable" in 2014 and isn't that more easily/cheaply achieved by cross-breeding or management changes in the "production" stage of the chain?

Well, I didn't mention a trait that would be my favorite or one that would develop a cult-like following so I left me an out! And I do not know the internal bowels of the herd, the people, the day to day so I glance from a distance from the outside. But I will give some comments of ignorance and keep up my usual pattern of incoherent communications.

Carcass study data: I do not need to sell steers that have up to an inch of backfat with what I think are small REAs and fairly small carcasses. I think this data would take the herd out of the "paternal" or "terminal" category for me. So, are the offerings strongly selected and prepotent for maternal traits?

Eleven pairs or cows for sale: keeping 30 heifers. Selling no heifers.

If I wanted to please myself and satisfy you in a general offering of individuals (if you seemed to think along the same general patterns of breeding) I would want to offer consistent products of similar breeding or similar type in the most fault free packages. I could have several types or sources in various breeding lines but they cannot vary a huge amount because they all fit the same environment. It is more of a segregation of sources than a wide differences of types. So, a long introduction: have the offered animals met that goal and are they from lines that have been selected as good as can be done as "fault free"?

Business side: If I bought something there, can I bring it home and get people to buy offspring from it? Or do I have to change it or do "correction mating" to make it work?

We have tossed the terms back and forth of "selection" and "culling". From the 75 years, what has been selected (for the right reasons) and what has been culled (for the right reasons) so that there is a strengthening of the pedigrees, if not the individuals, to be more predictable as whatever the goal has been: maternal, paternal, or all-purpose?

Are the offerings more prepotent now than in 1985?
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:55 am

EddieM wrote:

Carcass study data: I do not need to sell steers that have up to an inch of backfat with what I think are small REAs and fairly small carcasses.  I think this data would take the herd out of the "paternal" or "terminal" category for me.  

Business side: If I bought something there, can I bring it home and get people to buy offspring from it?  Or do I have to change it or do "correction mating" to make it work?

My simpleton answer to the simpler parts of your questions:

Carcass data - If you want "better" steers outcross to something that brings better terminal traits for the production stage. If you "need" better steers in a maternal program be prepared to give up something on the female side.
Business side - If you can't get people to buy the offspring with the traits they have that's a marketing/people problem not a cow/genetic problem isn't it?

On the rest of your question I'm out of my depth so like this guy i'll plead the fifth
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:26 am

Quote :
Business side - If you can't get people to buy the offspring with the traits they have that's a marketing/people problem not a cow/genetic problem isn't it?

It is as long as you are sure that it is not a cow/genetic problem and the animals would fit the needs of the potential buyer.
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Larry Leonhardt



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:36 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Larry Leonhardt wrote:
MKeeney wrote

Quote :
Larry, Larry, quite contrary, if you had not learned to be a non-traditional cattle breeder there; you would have learned to be a non-traditional cattle breeder elsewhere...it was in the genes , your genes, my friend  cheers


You are right my friend Razz , but I would still be floundering.   At that time, Wye was the ONLY  herd I knew of that had my "ideal" female standard stamped in my mind.   You more than anyone knows how rare that "standard" was ... and still is ... but now after only 35 years you also have many of "them" in your herd, thanks to Wye for saving us both many more years   cheers



so did this cow come to be a standard because of open records, sale manager footnotes, pedigrees, or prior cattle experience? was she created by records, sale manager footnotes, pedigrees, or prior cattle experience or by chance? why is her kind still rare?

reading the catalog, which bull or bulls from this year`s sale is more likely to make a high % of these cows?

the  highest ratio calf at weaning,

the second largest REA at 14.31.

. the highest cow energy value at $50.98

top tier for all carcass traits

A full brother sold in our 2013 sale for $4,000.

an extremely deep bodied bull
the third tallest bull at 49.4 inches.

the tallest bull measured at 50.4 inches and gained 3.8 pounds per day

the second tallest bull measured at 50.3 inches

Cedric daughter with a weaning ratio of 111 on 2 calves.

second heaviest calf at weaning

the heaviest at one
year weighing 1163 pounds.

combines a light birth
weight of 60 pounds , with a weaning ratio of 112 and yearling of 107

tied for second with an
ADG of 3.8 pounds per day.

second largest ribeye at 14.29 inches.

exhibits the length and
height of his sire

Our second highest weaning ratio of 122 and highest ADG at 3.9 pounds per day,

second tallest bull at 49.2 inches.

she has weaned two calves at a ratio of 110.

three sons who sold for a total of
$18,850

We have sold three of her
sons for a total of $10,500.

tremendous spring of rib and lots of
milk, as evidence by her weaning ratio of 110 on three calves

. Luthien is sired by Fornson out of that old Federal daughter Leonia
of Wye. Leonia is a daughter of Luria of Wye 1022, a Prince of Malpas daughter.
this means making more Luria`s??



the above notes remind me of reading the first pages of an SAV catalog; never got much farther than that..

I've never had more fun than having these light-hearted debates with "Mendalian Mike" for 35 years. Razz  Razz     I laughed thinking these kind of cows are rare because "Its the economy stupid".... the male "equivalents" of these kind of cows just don't sell well, that the footnotes in the Wye catalog are traditionally designed and fed well to help them sell well ... how else can you sell progeny out of "old bony" fertile cows well without backfat ... but Mike already knows all of that stuff, he never was very good at keeping the "secrets" to maintaining rarity.  cheers   I heard via the grapevine that Mike thought the cow Craig bought from me was "too bony" when he saw her in Canada last summer, that his first choice was this cow in Dylan's herd ... I don't really see much difference other than AGE and CONDITION and I'm almost certain Dylan's cow has a "bony" cow somewhere in the ancestry.  Razz  Razz 



LL heading out to Red Lodge to see if the 207 inches of melting snow is flooding the basement, hoping the bridges across melting ice jammed rivers are still intact.
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Larry Leonhardt



Posts : 131
Join date : 2011-08-10

PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:03 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Larry Leonhardt wrote:
MKeeney wrote

Quote :
Larry, Larry, quite contrary, if you had not learned to be a non-traditional cattle breeder there; you would have learned to be a non-traditional cattle breeder elsewhere...it was in the genes , your genes, my friend  cheers


You are right my friend Razz , but I would still be floundering.   At that time, Wye was the ONLY  herd I knew of that had my "ideal" female standard stamped in my mind.   You more than anyone knows how rare that "standard" was ... and still is ... but now after only 35 years you also have many of "them" in your herd, thanks to Wye for saving us both many more years   cheers



so did this cow come to be a standard because of open records, sale manager footnotes, pedigrees, or prior cattle experience? was she created by records, sale manager footnotes, pedigrees, or prior cattle experience or by chance? why is her kind still rare?

reading the catalog, which bull or bulls from this year`s sale is more likely to make a high % of these cows?

the  highest ratio calf at weaning,

the second largest REA at 14.31.

. the highest cow energy value at $50.98

top tier for all carcass traits

A full brother sold in our 2013 sale for $4,000.

an extremely deep bodied bull
the third tallest bull at 49.4 inches.

the tallest bull measured at 50.4 inches and gained 3.8 pounds per day

the second tallest bull measured at 50.3 inches

Cedric daughter with a weaning ratio of 111 on 2 calves.

second heaviest calf at weaning

the heaviest at one
year weighing 1163 pounds.

combines a light birth
weight of 60 pounds , with a weaning ratio of 112 and yearling of 107

tied for second with an
ADG of 3.8 pounds per day.

second largest ribeye at 14.29 inches.

exhibits the length and
height of his sire

Our second highest weaning ratio of 122 and highest ADG at 3.9 pounds per day,

second tallest bull at 49.2 inches.

she has weaned two calves at a ratio of 110.

three sons who sold for a total of
$18,850

We have sold three of her
sons for a total of $10,500.

tremendous spring of rib and lots of
milk, as evidence by her weaning ratio of 110 on three calves

. Luthien is sired by Fornson out of that old Federal daughter Leonia
of Wye. Leonia is a daughter of Luria of Wye 1022, a Prince of Malpas daughter.
this means making more Luria`s??



the above notes remind me of reading the first pages of an SAV catalog; never got much farther than that..

I've never had more fun than having these light-hearted debates with "Mendalian Mike" for 35 years. Razz  Razz     I laughed thinking these kind of cows are rare because "Its the economy stupid".... the male "equivalents" of these kind of cows just don't sell well, that the footnotes in the Wye catalog are traditionally designed and fed well to help them sell well ... how else can you sell progeny out of "old bony" fertile cows well without backfat ... but Mike already knows all of that stuff, he never was very good at keeping the "secrets" to maintaining rarity.  cheers   I heard via the grapevine that Mike thought the cow Craig bought from me was "too bony" when he saw her in Canada last summer, that his first choice was this cow in Dylan's herd ... I don't really see much difference other than AGE and CONDITION and I'm almost certain Dylan's cow has a "bony" cow somewhere in the ancestry.  Razz  Razz 



LL heading out to Red Lodge to see if the 207 inches of melting snow is flooding the basement, hoping the bridges across melting ice jammed rivers are still intact.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:57 pm

when in selling, do as the sellers do...if money is the first priority...



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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:36 pm

Breaking News:  One of Larry's favorite female specimens is off the market.  Clooney had her for awhile, but must have decided that see was too bony.  It's nice that she finally found someone that appreciates her femininity and finesse.  Doesn't this dude kinda look like a younger, slightly more Latin version of Larry?  I think he even had a similar blue jacket that he used to wear to the Wye advisory panel meetings.

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:32 pm

Tom D wrote:
Breaking News:  One of Larry's favorite female specimens is off the market.  Clooney had her for awhile, but must have decided that see was too bony.  It's nice that she finally found someone that appreciates her femininity and finesse.  Doesn't this dude kinda look like a younger, slightly more Latin version of Larry?  I think he even had a similar blue jacket that he used to wear to the Wye advisory panel meetings.


Tom, can we just let this "too bony" rumor die? I can`t be responding to every rumor that circles the internet; even those from inside our own house Smile   ...and if you are just tugging on Superman`s cape, we pulled the mask off that ole lone ranger a long time ago...such a wretched, ugly and troubled soul underneath that the Phantom of the Opera felt so good about himself, he just threw his mask away of his own accord ...two mask with one chandelier  cheers 
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:42 am

Fat bulls sell because that is what buyers pay for.
Those that know better, raise their own.
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Angus 62



Posts : 139
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:58 pm

There really ought to be a recovery group (FBA) for those addicted to buying fat bulls because it really seems to be an addiction.

I seem to be in the process of selling a couple of long yearling bulls to one such individual. He's been here once to look at the bulls and has called at least three times. He's also been to every bull sale within 60-70 miles. He's got 70 heifers to breed so he knows he's looking at the wrong side of $10,000-$12,000 (three yearling bulls) for a ton of fat, EPD's, and registration papers. Still can't quite get over the fact he could get those heifers bred for half that or less.
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:25 pm

Larch of Wye UMF 9694
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:03 am

Kent Powell wrote:
Larch of Wye UMF 9694
Power bull?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:47 am

EddieM wrote:
Kent Powell wrote:
Larch of Wye UMF 9694
Power bull?
why settle for less?

Lot 42
DOB: 2/26/13

Sire: Buarry of Wye UMF 10093

MGS: Briar of Wye UMF 9024

BW: 60, WW 587 Ratio 112, YW 1112 Ratio 107

REA: 11.7, IMF 4.60 $EN 36.66 Top 1% of Breed !

Dam's Production: WR 1@112

Great calving-ease bull with muscle and power
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sat Mar 29, 2014 7:13 pm

watched the dvd video Eddie sent; very nicely done; cows in good rig and several very nice...bulls presented clean without that show jock haircut was refreshing...the video good "eye-balling" practice; I liked lot 42 best; seemed a bit more cantankerous...why not "eye-ball"...isn`t that the purpose of video?
still; after pedigree; performance; pictures...are they the same in purpose? who should I buy to make daughters or does it matter which choice? I think I would just ask Eddie; or is a "gate cut" good enough to capture the program?
ps...was good to see the bull with the most ribeye scan look the part...still a maternal prospect? what was "Valour" `s purpose in the program?
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Larry Leonhardt



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Mon Mar 31, 2014 1:39 pm

MKeeney wrote:
watched the dvd video Eddie sent; very nicely done; cows in good rig and several very nice...bulls presented clean without that show jock haircut was refreshing...the video good "eye-balling" practice; I liked lot 42 best; seemed a bit more cantankerous...why not "eye-ball"...isn`t that the purpose of video?
still; after pedigree; performance; pictures...are they the same in purpose? who should I buy to make daughters or does it matter which choice? I think I would just ask Eddie; or is a "gate cut" good enough to capture the program?
ps...was good to see the bull with the most ribeye scan look the part...still a maternal prospect? what was "Valour" `s purpose in the program?
 

Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never harm me.    Valour's purpose when imported into the Wye program was to increase the needed size at that time, one of Prince Paul's sons who was reputed to be one of the larger British bulls available at that time, the late 50's.   In comparison with todays EPD, Valour is measured to have an individual minus 24 YW EPD, near the bottom of today's breed and a $EN value of 62, near the top of the breed.  Input vs. output, do these measures make Valour good or bad - what measures make a maternal prospect, the bottom, top or somewhere in between.   scratch 

Eyeballing is a measure of individual "head to toe" functional purpose selecting the type that most suits our immediate purpose.   Certainly today's Wye herd is not a place to go for those seeking to increase individual production levels.  It is a rare example of an isolated population of selection from innumerable multiple sires maintaining reliable public accessible records over 75 years.  These records do not make the cattle more valuable, it is the records that are of educational value.   The dollar value of the Wye cattle is determined in the public marketplace.

The Wye herd exemplifies breed purebred selection in its best traditional form.   I am so proud of the way Eddie presented his selections of the 2014 sale offering representing the compromised selections that the Wye herd offers, pointing out the individual minute differences from which to make our choices.   The names in the pedigrees mean nothing to me, the individual animals in each lot`s ancestry certainly do.   I have never before seen a structurally better overall sale offering to represent Wye's broad selection criteria.   I don't know whom among us could do a better job in carrying on to improve the Wye tradition than Eddie Draper, who learned from his predecessor's mistakes and hopefully, we'll learn from his.   cheers 

LL, biased of course
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:07 am

I`ll add Good Luck with the sale...but to keep that wish non-traditional and also since Wye is tax/private?-supported, it will mean "may the buyers find good success with the bulls they bought at reasonable prices"...wouldn`t that be a greater accomplishment than a record selling bull or a record sale average?
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Chad Chisholm

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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:41 am

Here is a post on advantage cattle of the Wye sale results.

http://www.advantagecattle.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8753


2012 32 Bulls Averaged $4283
2013 30 Bulls Averaged $3771
2014 33 Bulls Averaged $5037

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:31 pm

Chad Chisholm wrote:
Here is a post on advantage cattle of the Wye sale results.

http://www.advantagecattle.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8753


2012 32 Bulls Averaged $4283
2013 30 Bulls Averaged $3771
2014 33 Bulls Averaged $5037


wow...the cattle must be getting better  cheers cheers 
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:28 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Chad Chisholm wrote:
Here is a post on advantage cattle of the Wye sale results.

http://www.advantagecattle.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8753


2012 32 Bulls Averaged $4283
2013 30 Bulls Averaged $3771
2014 33 Bulls Averaged $5037


wow...the cattle must be getting better  cheers cheers 

or just a sign of a weaker dollar.  Sad Mad 
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:27 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Chad Chisholm wrote:
Here is a post on advantage cattle of the Wye sale results.

http://www.advantagecattle.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8753


2012 32 Bulls Averaged $4283
2013 30 Bulls Averaged $3771
2014 33 Bulls Averaged $5037


wow...the cattle must be getting better  cheers cheers 

But which one was the best?
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RobertMac



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:58 pm

EddieM wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Chad Chisholm wrote:
Here is a post on advantage cattle of the Wye sale results.

http://www.advantagecattle.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8753


2012 32 Bulls Averaged $4283
2013 30 Bulls Averaged $3771
2014 33 Bulls Averaged $5037


wow...the cattle must be getting better  cheers cheers 

But which one was the best?

Obviously the one that sold for the most $$$$$$$$$!
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:12 pm

RobertMac wrote:
EddieM wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
Chad Chisholm wrote:
Here is a post on advantage cattle of the Wye sale results.

http://www.advantagecattle.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8753


2012 32 Bulls Averaged $4283
2013 30 Bulls Averaged $3771
2014 33 Bulls Averaged $5037


wow...the cattle must be getting better  cheers cheers 

But which one was the best?

Obviously the one that sold for the most $$$$$$$$$!

just what does it say about a breeding program that would buy "second best"?  Rolling Eyes Smile 
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pukerimu



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:49 pm

All bulls have a different value to different people and different breeding policies - we have been lucky over the last few years that buying on type and not "data" has meant that not only have we been buying fabulous bulls but they have not cost us a lot of money either - sadly I think we will have some stiff and big pocketed competition this year  Sad  - lucky then that we have 4 of our own bulls so only need to buy one more this year. The concept of it actually being what you can see is starting to catch on ............ finally
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