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jhudson



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PostSubject: Wye   Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:23 pm

So what are we to conclude about Wye program based on prices? Why didn't they sell females this year? Jim
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:34 pm

highest selling bull lot 32 $14,000 footnote
our highest weaning ratio at 117 and yearling ratio at 115.......had a birth weight of 74 lbs. and hasn't stopped growing since he hit the ground.

Wye is keeping a 1/3 interest.... for breeding or marketing??
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:21 pm

larkota wrote:
highest selling bull lot 32 $14,000 footnote
our highest weaning ratio at 117 and yearling ratio at 115.......had a birth weight of 74 lbs. and hasn't stopped growing since he hit the ground.

Wye is keeping a 1/3 interest.... for breeding or marketing??
if he breeds his ratios I bet the daughters will have no milk...
if he breeds like the average of the bulls, they might..
either way, someone just wasted $10,000 plus...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:25 pm

jhudson wrote:
So what are we to conclude about Wye program based on prices? Why didn't they sell females this year? Jim

Jim,
Isn`t it funny that with all the scientific measurement the report most read that people put the most breeding value in is what the sale average was...in other words, what other people think and do...
I can`t wait till next year to get my bulls all priced the same; and get it done early before sale season starts...what makes a bull worth 5 times more than the average when they all come from the same gene pool? just a superior temporary arrangement of all the same genes?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:24 am

if one`s cows are so bad you need to spend $14,000 for a bull, should you start over? on the other hand, if your cows are so good that it takes $14,000 to find a bull that could improve them, why not use your own bulls?
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Danny Miller



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Age : 59
Location : KY

PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:41 am

MKeeney wrote:
if one`s cows are so bad you need to spend $14,000 for a bull, should you start over? on the other hand, if your cows are so good that it takes $14,000 to find a bull that could improve them, why not use your own bulls?
A couple of good questions....I think most are not confident enough to use their own bulls....And some think they need the "Big named outfits" associated
with their cattle for credability....Thus the need for a bull of the month and waiting for the next best thing to come along. If you won't use your own bulls
in your own herd, why should anyone else???
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:46 pm

mrvictordomino wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
if one`s cows are so bad you need to spend $14,000 for a bull, should you start over? on the other hand, if your cows are so good that it takes $14,000 to find a bull that could improve them, why not use your own bulls?
A couple of good questions....I think most are not confident enough to use their own bulls....And some think they need the "Big named outfits" associated
with their cattle for credability....Thus the need for a bull of the month and waiting for the next best thing to come along. If you won't use your own bulls
in your own herd, why should anyone else???

no getting around that basic answer...

but while we are discussing individuality, this seems the proper thread...to be fair, or at least equal, let`s pick on Keeney Angus a little...
tomorrow 11 et calves from a dam and her daughter primarily sired by the old cow`s grandson arrive on the farm after considerable expense beyond the ordinary bull breeds cow; cow raises her own calf scenario...

just how much less variation and superiority do you suppose those calves will show compared to selecting 10 heifers from the Shoshone gene pool for characteristics you want, and breeding said heifers to a Shoshone bull {applies to any other gene pool that might exist } from a like cow ???????????????

I offer the opinion...not much difference at all...so Mike Keeney most likely wasted money along the same lines as the guy buying a $14,000 bull...

now compared to buy 10 heifers based on like epd numbers and breeding them to like epd bull ?

I am not sure about what the difference in variation of the calves phenotype might be; but I sure believe my ET calves would breed more true for my selected characteristics than breeding by numbers...once the numbers have been fleshed out, because in the interim, 100 yw to 100 yw gets 100 yw...

can`t hardly beat that, eh? Very Happy
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Chad Chisholm

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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:43 am

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:05 am

Chad Chisholm wrote:
Wye Angus Sale

http://agresearch.umd.edu/sites/default/files/_docs/WYE-Catalog-2014%20WEB.pdf

thx Chad...I bet naming is getting to be a pain...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:19 am

Our highest ratio calf at weaning, Crancer had the second largest REA at 14.31.
Out of a good young Alap daughter. Retaining 1/3 breeding interest.

Bercilak is a very deep bodied bull with the highest cow energy value at $50.98

One of the seven bulls
that rank in the top tier for all carcass traits measured by Tallgrass Beef.

A full brother sold in our 2013 sale for $4,000.

an extremely deep bodied bull and has an impressive weaning ratio of
111 and a yearling ratio of 107
and is the third tallest bull at 49.4 inches. Dam sells
as Lot 2. Retaining 1/3 breeding interest.

He
was the tallest bull measured at 50.4 inches and gained 3.8 pounds per day

the second tallest bull measured at 50.3 inches and his dam is an
impressive Cedric daughter with a weaning ratio of 111 on 2 calves.

second heaviest calf at weaning at 621 pounds and the heaviest at one
year weighing 1163 pounds. Retaining 1/3 breeding interest.

combines a light birth
weight of 60 pounds to go along with a weaning ratio of 112 and yearling of 107

tied for second with an
ADG of 3.8 pounds per day.

second largest ribeye at 14.29 inches. Retaining 1/3 breeding interest

high performing Aristocrat daughter and exhibits the length and
height of his sire {so the $en is lowest here ?...which is a good or bad thing?}

Our second highest weaning ratio of 122 and highest ADG at 3.9 pounds per day,
Carbry is also our second tallest bull at 49.2 inches. Retaining 1/3 breeding interest.

she has weaned two calves at a ratio of 110. {wonder which cow has weaned 2 @90 ?}

There is a world of maternal wrapped up in these embryos’
pedigree. {with franchester as grandsire?
Both grandmothers (8988 and 8376)
have contributed significantly to the progress we have
made over the last 5 years. {can you detect  progress in what direction from reading the catalog ...?}

three sons who sold for a total of
$18,850

We have sold three of her
sons for a total of $10,500.

tremendous spring of rib and lots of
milk, as evidence by her weaning ratio of 110 on three calves

. Luthien is sired by Fornson out of that old Federal daughter Leonia
of Wye. Leonia is a daughter of Luria of Wye 1022, a Prince of Malpas daughter.
9918 is a moderate framed Cedric of Wye UMF 8998 daughter with a tremendous
middle {there ya go; study that pedigree to see how to make a tremendous middle}

footnoting the outliers; the registered business as usual...oh well...what else should we expect from a university...????? if the longest, tallest, heaviest, fastest gaining, most milk, biggest ribeye, most marbling, highest priced is most notable, where do we get the idea this is a maternal herd? because they don`t do those things as well as the rest of the Angus registry make them maternal ??? mk
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:49 am

MKeeney wrote:
Our highest ratio calf at weaning, Crancer had the second largest REA at 14.31.
Out of a good young Alap daughter. Retaining 1/3 breeding interest.

Bercilak is a very deep bodied bull with the highest cow energy value at $50.98

One of the seven bulls
that rank in the top tier for all carcass traits measured by Tallgrass Beef.

A full brother sold in our 2013 sale for $4,000.

an extremely deep bodied bull and has an impressive weaning ratio of
111 and a yearling ratio of 107
and is the third tallest bull at 49.4 inches. Dam sells
as Lot 2. Retaining 1/3 breeding interest.

He
was the tallest bull measured at 50.4 inches and gained 3.8 pounds per day

the second tallest bull measured at 50.3 inches and his dam is an
impressive Cedric daughter with a weaning ratio of 111 on 2 calves.

second heaviest calf at weaning at 621 pounds and the heaviest at one
year weighing 1163 pounds. Retaining 1/3 breeding interest.

combines a light birth
weight of 60 pounds to go along with a weaning ratio of 112 and yearling of 107

tied for second with an
ADG of 3.8 pounds per day.

second largest ribeye at 14.29 inches. Retaining 1/3 breeding interest

high performing Aristocrat daughter and exhibits the length and
height of his sire {so the $en is lowest here ?...which is a good or bad thing?}

Our second highest weaning ratio of 122 and highest ADG at 3.9 pounds per day,
Carbry is also our second tallest bull at 49.2 inches. Retaining 1/3 breeding interest.

she has weaned two calves at a ratio of 110. {wonder which cow has weaned 2 @90 ?}

There is a world of maternal wrapped up in these embryos’
pedigree. {with franchester as grandsire?
Both grandmothers (8988 and 8376)
have contributed significantly to the progress we have
made over the last 5 years. {can you detect  progress in what direction from reading the catalog ...?}

three sons who sold for a total of
$18,850

We have sold three of her
sons for a total of $10,500.

tremendous spring of rib and lots of
milk, as evidence by her weaning ratio of 110 on three calves

. Luthien is sired by Fornson out of that old Federal daughter Leonia
of Wye. Leonia is a daughter of Luria of Wye 1022, a Prince of Malpas daughter.
9918 is a moderate framed Cedric of Wye UMF 8998 daughter with a tremendous
middle {there ya go; study that pedigree to see how to make a tremendous middle}

footnoting the outliers; the registered business as usual...oh well...what else should we expect from a university...????? if the longest, tallest, heaviest, fastest gaining, most milk, biggest ribeye, most marbling, highest priced is most notable, where do we get the idea this is a maternal herd? because they don`t do those things as well as the rest of the Angus registry make them maternal ??? mk

Looks like you are still undecided on which one to buy. jocolor 
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:11 am

don`t you wish there was some where to go to buy a bull at a reasonable, predetermined price where you open the gate and one walks out and you are confident he will make good cows?

don`t you wish there was some where to go to buy a bull at a reasonable, predetermined price where you open the gate and one walks out and you are confident he will make good steers?

a couple places exist for each goal; and they are not the same place...here`s one for last question...
http://eatoncharolais.com/
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larkota



Posts : 371
Join date : 2010-09-23
Age : 57
Location : Kimball South Dakota

PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:42 am

Lot25 Calved: 2-01-13
Bercilak is a very deep bodied bull with the highest cow energy value at $50.98.
Adj 205 Day Wt. 481 Ratio 92
Adj 365 Day Wt. 916 Ratio 88 ADG 2.90
Back fat .48

Lot 22 Calved: 1-30-13
Our highest ratio calf at weaning, Crancer had the second largest REA at 14.31.
Adj 205 Day Wt. 647 Ratio 123
Adj 365 Day Wt. 1148 Ratio 110 ADG 3.40
Back fat .53
Cow Energy Value $22.97

for every positive there is a negative.
high fat - slow growth...definition of maternal?
why would you push bulls this hard?
what would they weigh with .20 back fat?
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EddieM



Posts : 895
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Location : South Carolina

PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:20 pm

larkota wrote:
Lot25  Calved: 2-01-13
Bercilak is a very deep bodied bull with the highest cow energy value at $50.98.
Adj 205 Day Wt. 481 Ratio 92
Adj 365 Day Wt. 916 Ratio 88 ADG 2.90
Back fat .48

Lot 22  Calved: 1-30-13
Our highest ratio calf at weaning, Crancer had the second largest REA at 14.31.
Adj 205 Day Wt. 647 Ratio 123
Adj 365 Day Wt. 1148 Ratio 110  ADG 3.40
Back fat .53
Cow Energy Value $22.97

for every positive there is a negative.
high fat - slow growth...definition of maternal?
why would you push bulls this hard?
what would they weigh with .20 back fat?

"what would they weigh with .20 back fat?" And at what age? What would be the mature size of the comparable cow on a forage program?
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:46 am

larkota wrote:
Lot25  Calved: 2-01-13
Bercilak is a very deep bodied bull with the highest cow energy value at $50.98.
Adj 205 Day Wt. 481 Ratio 92
Adj 365 Day Wt. 916 Ratio 88 ADG 2.90
Back fat .48

Lot 22  Calved: 1-30-13
Our highest ratio calf at weaning, Crancer had the second largest REA at 14.31.
Adj 205 Day Wt. 647 Ratio 123
Adj 365 Day Wt. 1148 Ratio 110  ADG 3.40
Back fat .53
Cow Energy Value $22.97

for every positive there is a negative.
high fat - slow growth...definition of maternal?
why would you push bulls this hard?
what would they weigh with .20 back fat?

I thought about it overnight (thinking = dangerous) and the calf with ADG of 2.90 had 0.48.  Guess to say that maybe a pound a day was extra fat: pulled it out of the air.  So, the 140 day feeding would be 140 pounds less.  But then how do you market 14 month old bulls at 750 to 950 pounds?  Move the sale to a 2 YO average bull?  But then do you eliminate the fat or delay the deposition?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:54 am

the illusionist of performance and mysticism cause us to believe; or often we hallucinate ourselves into believing , that there is something across the bay, over the border, or up the butte that we`ve never had or even seen before; genes, knowledge, experience... finally our paid price of admission is accepted whether it be money or kissing ass, and we make our crossing or climb only to find nothing that we didn`t already have at home; how deflating  Exclamation  Exclamation  Exclamation ...except the confidence to use our own genetics and our own ability to make our own; temporary in time, defining mark; and then the last choice is whether to pass on to the next person on the journey mysticism or reality...
reminds me a bit of a fav song

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh-JoW_8qw0



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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:10 am

larkota wrote:
Lot25  Calved: 2-01-13
Bercilak is a very deep bodied bull with the highest cow energy value at $50.98.
Adj 205 Day Wt. 481 Ratio 92
Adj 365 Day Wt. 916 Ratio 88 ADG 2.90
Back fat .48

Lot 22  Calved: 1-30-13
Our highest ratio calf at weaning, Crancer had the second largest REA at 14.31.
Adj 205 Day Wt. 647 Ratio 123
Adj 365 Day Wt. 1148 Ratio 110  ADG 3.40
Back fat .53
Cow Energy Value $22.97

for every positive there is a negative.
high fat - slow growth...definition of maternal?
why would you push bulls this hard?
what would they weigh with .20 back fat?


If there is a huge difference in the "quality" of your bulls you are probably doing a lousy job.
Angus 62
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:19 pm

skipping ahead a decade on Ronnie Milsap, isn`t Wye pretty much lost in the 60`s...what`s changed? what`s improved?
surely after 50 years, the methodology should change; for either reason; it`s worked and we go forward building on the achievement...or if it hasn`t worked, isn`t it time to do things a different way?
leaving Wye to a university was probably a bad idea; no long range commitment or vision to the cattle industry, too much sing, sang, sung, song?
but how much different than the mainstream still riding the same horse and the other universities spurring the horse for them?  claiming lots of progress; I never see it, but I don`t ever go much farther than the sale barn to get an industry view...

did the Wye panel ever make a difference in the direction of the herd?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:37 am

someone needs to remind me again as to why you close a herd population and then favor selecting the outliers?
does the data presented help you sort which bull will be best to make cows?
best data to make steers? why are you even considering that ?

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Larry Leonhardt



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:42 am

MKeeney wrote:
skipping ahead a decade on Ronnie Milsap, isn`t Wye pretty much lost in the 60`s...what`s changed? what`s improved?
surely after 50 years, the methodology should change; for either reason; it`s worked and we go forward building on the achievement...or if it hasn`t worked, isn`t it time to do things a different way?
leaving Wye to a university was probably a bad idea; no long range commitment or vision to the cattle industry, too much sing, sang, sung, song?
but how much different than the mainstream still riding the same horse and the other universities spurring the horse for them?  claiming lots of progress; I never see it, but I don`t ever go much farther than the sale barn to get an industry view...

did the Wye panel ever make a difference in the direction of the herd?

Serving as a member of that Advisory Panel from 1978-1983, it matters little whether the panel made a difference in the direction ... the only thing that matters which is of extreme importance is the educational usefulness of the INTEGRITY of the OPEN Wye records in a STEADFAST TRADITIONAL direction of a closed population.   The value is in what can be learned from the 75-year Wye program.   If it were not from what I learned from the open Wye records, I would not be in the beef cattle breeding business today ... and for that contribution I will be forever grateful for the Wye Program ... our own selection directions then are left up to our own choices.

LL
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:12 pm

MKeeney wrote:
someone needs to remind me again as to why you close a herd population and then favor selecting the outliers?
does the data presented help you sort which bull will be best to make cows?
best data to make steers? why are you even considering that ?

I think that the outliers are used in an attempt to temporarily skew the herd average.

This is the big question: Is the herd average in a closed herd the eternal herd average? How can you change the 1985 Wye herd average of a particular trait or traits to be more desirable in 2014? Or CAN it change once the foundation animals are selected and the outside gate clangs shut?

LL wrote:
Serving as a member of that Advisory Panel from 1978-1983, it matters little whether the panel made a difference in the direction ... the only thing that matters which is of extreme importance is the educational usefulness of the INTEGRITY of the OPEN Wye records in a STEADFAST TRADITIONAL direction of a closed population. The value is in what can be learned from the 75-year Wye program. If it were not from what I learned from the open Wye records, I would not be in the beef cattle breeding business today ... and for that contribution I will be forever grateful for the Wye Program ... our own selection directions then are left up to our own choices.

LL

Larry, I appreciate your service and the service of others who try to provide guidance to others for the good of the advised. We have all learned a lot (I hope) by studying the Wye program. I'm just glad that they do not charge tuition!
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:52 pm

EddieM wrote:
How can you change the 1985 Wye herd average of a particular trait or traits to be more desirable in 2014?

I know it wasn't the intend of your post Eddie but why would you want to change the population? What would make it more "desirable" in 2014 and isn't that more easily/cheaply achieved by cross-breeding or management changes in the "production" stage of the chain?
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Larry Leonhardt



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:53 pm

EddieM wrote:

Quote :
Larry, I appreciate your service and the service of others who try to provide guidance to others for the good of the advised. We have all learned a lot (I hope) by studying the Wye program. I'm just glad that they do not charge tuition!


Thanks a million Eddie, most of us paid dearly for our initial tuition ... UMF paid my travel and lodging and everything since has been a free ride  Very Happy 

LL
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:01 pm

Larry Leonhardt wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
skipping ahead a decade on Ronnie Milsap, isn`t Wye pretty much lost in the 60`s...what`s changed? what`s improved?
surely after 50 years, the methodology should change; for either reason; it`s worked and we go forward building on the achievement...or if it hasn`t worked, isn`t it time to do things a different way?
leaving Wye to a university was probably a bad idea; no long range commitment or vision to the cattle industry, too much sing, sang, sung, song?
but how much different than the mainstream still riding the same horse and the other universities spurring the horse for them?  claiming lots of progress; I never see it, but I don`t ever go much farther than the sale barn to get an industry view...

did the Wye panel ever make a difference in the direction of the herd?

Serving as a member of that Advisory Panel from 1978-1983, it matters little whether the panel made a difference in the direction ... the only thing that matters which is of extreme importance is the educational usefulness of the INTEGRITY of the OPEN Wye records in a STEADFAST TRADITIONAL direction of a closed population.   The value is in what can be learned from the 75-year Wye program.   If it were not from what I learned from the open Wye records, I would not be in the beef cattle breeding business today ... and for that contribution I will be forever grateful for the Wye Program ... our own selection directions then are left up to our own choices.

LL

Larry, Larry, quite contrary, if you had not learned to be a non-traditional cattle breeder there; you would have learned to be a non-traditional cattle breeder elsewhere...it was in the genes , your genes, my friend  cheers 
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Larry Leonhardt



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PostSubject: Re: Wye catalog   Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:52 am

MKeeney wrote

Quote :
Larry, Larry, quite contrary, if you had not learned to be a non-traditional cattle breeder there; you would have learned to be a non-traditional cattle breeder elsewhere...it was in the genes , your genes, my friend  cheers


You are right my friend Razz , but I would still be floundering.   At that time, Wye was the ONLY  herd I knew of that had my "ideal" female standard stamped in my mind.   You more than anyone knows how rare that "standard" was ... and still is ... but now after only 35 years you also have many of "them" in your herd, thanks to Wye for saving us both many more years   cheers
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