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 Bovine Switches

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Kent Powell



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Join date : 2010-09-24
Location : SW Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Bovine Switches   Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:11 pm

I read that he could accurately predict sex by looking at the switch of the cow's tail.
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PostSubject: Re: Bovine Switches   Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:23 pm

Was he also the one that could tell how many calves a cow had raised?
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Grassfarmer



Posts : 850
Join date : 2010-09-27
Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Bovine Switches   Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:28 pm

Bootheel wrote:
Was he also the one that could tell how many calves a cow had raised?

That sounds more like Gearld Fry, he is the guy that can preg check, tell how many calves she has raised, if an animal has ever aborted and many other things from his truck on the side of the highway, doesn't even need to go into the pasture Rolling Eyes (or to own any cows apparently)
I had a quick scan through my Bonsma "Man must measure" book today and saw little mention of tails. In one table a desirable tail is described as having a full switch but the many drawings comparing desirable, fertile types of bulls and cows to quite extreme subfertile or infertile types all show identical tails.
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PostSubject: Re: Bovine Switches   Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:32 pm

Keystone we need to get started on the twin tails on these cows before summer.... And then maybe Grassy can help with the frost free style.. Laughing Laughing
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JFisher



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Join date : 2010-11-29
Location : Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Bovine Switches   Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:55 pm

Keystone wrote:
What did Bonsma say about sexing unborn calves by the cows tailswitch?

G

Bonsma stated that estrogen inhibited hair growth making it fine and soft. Testosterone has the opposite effect making hair thicker , heavier, and more coarse.

Concurrently, you can determine sex of the unborn , prior to the event, by evaluation of the expectant females hair changes during the pregnancy.
If she is carrying a female her hair will get finer and softer, if she is carrying a male, her hair will get coarser, thicker, & heavier as she come to term.


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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Bovine Switches   Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:07 pm

So Kansas is that the hair on the tail he was talking about or elsewhere on the body?
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JFisher



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Location : Kansas

PostSubject: Re: Bovine Switches   Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:26 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
So Kansas is that the hair on the tail he was talking about or elsewhere on the body?


Works on whatever area you care to carefully evaluate changes in hair . Tail hair is very noticeable.

I was noticing for some time that hair in the upper area of the tail tended to stand straight up and out , if the female was carrying a male calf.

Never had a lot of success in changing the sex of a calf while noticing hair doo's . So don't pay a lot of attention to it anymore.

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Mean Spirit



Posts : 321
Join date : 2010-09-26

PostSubject: Re: Bovine Switches   Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:12 am

So is there any research that says that cows carrying heifer calves have a measurably higher level of estrogen than cows carrying bulls? Or that cows carrying bulls have more testosterone than cows carrying heifers?

I'm not saying one way or the other, but if this is the case, why can't we just do a blood test to sex pregnancies. Make it cheap enough and cowside, and cash we will bale as we put the calf ultrasound sexers out of business.

If it's not the case, then I'm having some difficulty figuring out how a cow's tail hairs can change in response to the calves sex.

Mean Spirit, in the vicinity of the next great idea that the purebred world has been waiting for.
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G nome



Posts : 45
Join date : 2011-10-04

PostSubject: Re: Bovine Switches   Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:52 pm

Somethin is in the blood, how else would a free marten develop? The cow with the largest tale might yet win the prize! Very Happy
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: Bovine Switches   Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:07 pm

G nome wrote:
Somethin is in the blood, how else would a free marten develop? The cow with the largest tale might yet win the prize! Very Happy

I thought the deal on freemartins was that there was something in the heifer twin's blood that came from the bull twin's blood. Does any of that actually show up in the momma's blood?

Mean, anxious to start selling cowside assays for the something.
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G nome



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PostSubject: Re: Bovine Switches   Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:06 pm

Whitecow, are you saying that fraternal twins share fluids that the mother does not? I always thought the exchange was across cotyledons to mom, then mom to the other embryo across the second set of cotyledons. Two separate sacs. The surest test for free marten heifers is for male DNA.
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G nome



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PostSubject: Re: Bovine Switches   Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:07 pm

Gonna Switch to the biggest tale. Very Happy First one doesn't have a chance here...
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: Bovine Switches   Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:15 am

G nome wrote:
Whitecow, are you saying that fraternal twins share fluids that the mother does not? I always thought the exchange was across cotyledons to mom, then mom to the other embryo across the second set of cotyledons. Two separate sacs. The surest test for free marten heifers is for male DNA.

I think most bovine twins do in fact have merging of their chorions, or something like that, so that the blood sharing between the twins is direct, not through the dam's circulation. That's what I was taught in vet school, and what I always told my clients.

So, yeah, you test the twin heifer for male DNA after parturition, but I don't think you can bleed the cow prepartum and test her for male DNA and expect to see anything significantly different from other cows. But if you can, you, I mean we, ought to be able to develop a way to sex pregnancies. Put the assay on a card, or in a little tube- put a drop of tail blood from the dam on the card or in the tube, it turns color or clumps up or something, and we know it's a boy ( or freemartins twins). We sell the cards in a kit for $30 bucks apiece, and we bale the cash.

Mean Spirit
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PostSubject: Re: Bovine Switches   Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:22 am

Mean Spirit wrote:
G nome wrote:
Whitecow, are you saying that fraternal twins share fluids that the mother does not? I always thought the exchange was across cotyledons to mom, then mom to the other embryo across the second set of cotyledons. Two separate sacs. The surest test for free marten heifers is for male DNA.

I think most bovine twins do in fact have merging of their chorions, or something like that, so that the blood sharing between the twins is direct, not through the dam's circulation. That's what I was taught in vet school, and what I always told my clients.

So, yeah, you test the twin heifer for male DNA after parturition, but I don't think you can bleed the cow prepartum and test her for male DNA and expect to see anything significantly different from other cows. But if you can, you, I mean we, ought to be able to develop a way to sex pregnancies. Put the assay on a card, or in a little tube- put a drop of tail blood from the dam on the card or in the tube, it turns color or clumps up or something, and we know it's a boy ( or freemartins twins). We sell the cards in a kit for $30 bucks apiece, and we bale the cash.

Mean Spirit

I would think you would have to have a cylcical baseline of hormone levels for each individual.
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Mean Spirit



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PostSubject: Re: Bovine Switches   Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:34 am

I would think such a requirement would doom my business venture.

Mean Spirit, heart broken.
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R V



Posts : 74
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PostSubject: Re: Bovine Switches   Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:15 pm

Freemartin
a sterile female born co-twin with a male. Occurs most commonly in cattle, very rarely in sheep, and apparently not at all in the other species. Male hormones produced by the male calf share the common circulation and inhibit the normal development of genitalia of the female. The female is also an erythrocytic chimera and can be diagnosed as a freemartin by this means. It can also be diagnosed by cytogenetic techniques. It produces white cells with XY as well as cells with XX chromosomes. Structural changes of nonpatent vagina, small vulva, cordlike uterus and hypoplastic ovaries are diagnostic but inconsistent. Some freemartins are quite normal clinically but all are sterile.
Freemartin placenta. By permission from Buergelt CD, Color Atlas of Reproductive Pathology of Domestic Animal, Mosby, 1996Saunders Comprehensive Veterinary Dictionary, 3 ed. © 2007 Elsevier, Inc. All rights reserved

Mean Spirit is right again! I believe my initial thought process on this topic is part of what Dennis was warning us about today and the part of the topic that interested me is of little importance to cattle breeding. Male/female twins happen and there is not a lot that we can do about it. Several experienced cattlemen that have kept and/or tested bulls out of these tell me that many of the bulls are less fertile. Also the dairymen in my area relate that they test all twin heifers born with a male counterpart because 10-15% are fertile and will breed. It would make sense that not all placentas would grow together and there would be differing amounts of crossover, so maybe this will be of some use to someone.
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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Bovine Switches   Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:07 pm

An example of a nice switch.

Nice switch
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PostSubject: Re: Bovine Switches   Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:15 pm

I like the bulls tail, nuts, breed character, disposition, and body over all, whats the yellow stuff?
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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Bovine Switches   Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:18 pm

Yeah, he sorta fits together.

As far as the yellow stuff you better ask Hilly.
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Hilly



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Location : Sylvan Lake, Alberta

PostSubject: Re: Bovine Switches   Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:41 pm

DB,
Now I’m going to have to phone Dallas and Increase my bid Wink

I think it’s Rumpelstiltskin who is the authority on the yellow stuff.
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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Bovine Switches   Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:22 pm

Hilly.....Darn.

Here is an F1 switch.

[img][/img]


DV, the white stuff is confetti.
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PostSubject: Re: Bovine Switches   Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:08 am

whats the horse you have pictured, a trout?
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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Bovine Switches   Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:58 am

Fluid movement makes a smooth ride.
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Grassfarmer



Posts : 850
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Location : Belmont, Manitoba, Canada

PostSubject: Re: Bovine Switches   Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:08 am

Dennis Voss wrote:
whats the horse you have pictured, a trout?

Darn GMOs - you never know quite what you're dealing with affraid
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jonken



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Join date : 2011-12-17
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PostSubject: Re: Bovine Switches   Tue May 22, 2012 2:41 am

Dennis Voss wrote:
I just got off the phone with my brother Galen who's been doing some research on bull tails and cow tails through just observing the differences in the switches and overall tail structure. Since he probably sees more cattle per week than anyone I know, I think he's really on to something. There is a huge difference in the vitality in bovine tails. A lot of mainstream Angus right now have exceedingly high tailheads that go down to a really small, flimsy, fine haired switch. The cattle I'm breeding around here which are primarily Shoshone origin blood, have excellent switches which is to my brother and I a real positive. When a bull swings his tail around he wants it to swing way up over his back. He wants it to have some impact. I'm thinking that in addition to all the other things the mainstream crowd is screwing up, they're screwing up the tails on these cattle whether they know it or not.

DV in the vicinity of trying to get W.T to respond

Now that everyone has had time to reflect , laugh , heckle , caw , and cackle at such a post , I want a show of hands of those who made a bee line to their pastures with tape measure in hand . Is there a correlation to animal balance , maturity and function ? Thanks Again for ....JUST OBSERVING . Jon
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