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 Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:22 pm


nice job Hilly..may her influence and her type spread beyond AB, MN, and Nancy; and all places in between...not only changing the genetics of cow herds, but changing the mindset of breeders... Smile
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:11 pm

Same cow not a great picture, but could be another addition to Larrys talking cow series Wink Still waiting..... Smile

I put it up to show the end view of the coffee cup so to speak... dosn't do her justice but she gets wider as you go back, all the capacity or “guts” this farmer needs.

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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:06 am


More Red Lodge symmetry and scenery... I posted this picture on 5bar, you don’t have to stop and take a second look to tell the genders apart Smile


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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:28 am

This picture is not from Red Lodge Shocked but he is a brother to the cow in the first two pictures, and one of my mob bulls nearing his third birthday... He is a favourite of mine and bred more cows here this year than any bull on the place as he is dominant in the Shoshone mob and when with my older bigger bulls if he can’t wear them down through fighting he will beat them to the punch anyway.

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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:38 am

Hilly wrote:
This picture is not from Red Lodge Shocked but he is a brother to the cow in the first two pictures, and one of my mob bulls nearing his third birthday... He is a favourite of mine and bred more cows here this year than any bull on the place as he is dominant in the Shoshone mob and when with my older bigger bulls if he can’t wear them down through fighting he will beat them to the punch anyway.

no scenery value...but what educational value Exclamation
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:11 pm

Ok, on the last bull pictured. I have read many places and believe it that it takes masculine bulls to produce feminine females. This bull doesn't appear very masculine to me, what do his daughters look like, I realize they would be young.
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:41 pm

AX- wrote:
Ok, on the last bull pictured. I have read many places and believe it that it takes masculine bulls to produce feminine females. This bull doesn't appear very masculine to me, what do his daughters look like, I realize they would be young.
He looks very masculine to me relative to his body mass...he is quite the athletic contrast to the fleshier, earlier maturing types ...
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:49 pm

Ok - teach me Mike. I'm ready for a lesson, I just don't see it. Now on the bull in the tall grass, I undoubtedly see it there, but I just see a long head and no rear. Not trying to be a pain, just want to see what I'm missing here.
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:06 pm

AX- wrote:
Ok - teach me Mike. I'm ready for a lesson, I just don't see it. Now on the bull in the tall grass, I undoubtedly see it there, but I just see a long head and no rear. Not trying to be a pain, just want to see what I'm missing here.
Not a pain at all; though fools like me who have only learned from the dear school of experience should likely not attempt to teach...so maybe we learn together
I have already been telephoned today from a friend with "I can`t sell bulls that look like Hilly`s"; few of us can...I also heard something friendly like "damn you Mike Keeney for making me think for myself", and tonight I bet he is thinking about me telling him not to piss away his full and half sib "litters" of calves by outcrossing them to some damn unknown from the great northern woods..what a travesty that would be Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation I even offered to buy some of them to prevent it from happening Exclamation
how many customers, even breeders, can "look at the egg; and see the eagle?" So I asked him, and now you, "could you sell cows like a-724? surely most everyone could; at least to commercial producers...?

the bull in the grass is older and fat; the young bull is thin, linebred, just out from breeding cows, and hasn`t matured yet. He is the male counterpart of the first cow pictured...someday, I feel confident he will look like his sire...


why wouldn`t he? ok, so maybe he won`t look like him; but since he has the same genotype as the cow, why wouldn`t he breed like his sire/full sister? the possibility enhanced by the fact...he is linebred...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:28 pm

[quote="MKeeney"]
Hilly wrote:
This picture is not from Red Lodge Shocked but he is a brother to the cow in the first two pictures, and one of my mob bulls nearing his third birthday... He is a favourite of mine and bred more cows here this year than any bull on the place as he is dominant in the Shoshone mob and when with my older bigger bulls if he can’t wear them down through fighting he will beat them to the punch anyway.


just wanted you to know I got a bull like that Hilly; I can`t wait to get him out with cows this fall...pictured at 21 months...
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:40 pm

I really like the lesson here - I'm starting to appreciate these "different" type bulls. I think a lot of people confuse muscularity with masculinity - Hilly's bull has enough of a crest on him to be enough of a bull for me.
I must be a slow learner because 20 years ago I was growing up friends with some of the best blackface sheep breeders in Scotland. One family had the females that everyone wanted - they were consistent, feminine and great producers. Unfortunately their rams were slower to sell - they just didn't have "the look". On the other hand another family had the rams with "the look" but they didn't produce as good females as the first flock. Their rams sold for sums that would embarrass some of the high selling Angus outfits. It took reading LL, MikeK et all to make me understand the lesson that I should have learned 20 years ago. How much time it would have saved having that knowledge sooner.
My intent now is to create a herd of cows that everyone would like to own - not for their pedigrees or names but for their commercial viability and I'll learn to like the type of young bull it takes to create them. If others don't like the bulls I'll show them the cow herd and tell them that they are a result of this type of bull - if you want the females buy the bulls. It'll be a tough sell on the bulls I think but I'm prepared for that.
That's the theory anyway - takes a little longer to get the herd built.
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:55 pm

To each his own I guess. I still believe that masculinity and muscularity are connected. Even in people, who would be more masculine, an average NFL linebacaker or Pee Wee Herman? I guess I see the two as connected at least on some level... and I appologize to Hilly, this isn't a personal attack on his bull or him. I just see a lack of masculinity in the animal and nothing more.
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:59 pm

35 heifers bred and 10 months of grass and maturity later

contrasted to

which bull to do you think would cover ground to breed your cows; and which bull
exhibits the Bonsma characteristics for fertility?
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:03 pm

I like the top bull better than the short coupled little bull. I'm not talking about your bull Mike, just Hillys bull. There is a lot of difference between Hilly's and the last bull pictured.
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:22 pm

AX- wrote:
To each his own I guess. I still believe that masculinity and muscularity are connected. Even in people, who would be more masculine, an average NFL linebacaker or Pee Wee Herman? I guess I see the two as connected at least on some level... and I appologize to Hilly, this isn't a personal attack on his bull or him. I just see a lack of masculinity in the animal and nothing more.
masculinity and feminity are positively correlated; muscularity {as well as the fat imitation} and infertility are positively correlated...
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:26 pm

AX- wrote:
I like the top bull better than the short coupled little bull. I'm not talking about your bull Mike, just Hillys bull. There is a lot of difference between Hilly's and the last bull pictured.
time and flesh..the type is exactly the same...
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:03 am

I could cut and paste a fair number of popular A.I Bulls at a young age that I used and receive praise for my decision to move my herd forward... problem is those bulls cause such a crippling sort I still get pissed off thinking about it. I refuse to keep using the same type of bulls and expecting different results.

I don’t need people to jump up and down over my bulls anymore as they only make up about 4% of my herd I am looking for the elusive reliable cow and I have toured enough herds to find common ancestry in my preferred type of maternal cow.

The only concern I have with my mob bulls is they forget to eat as they are breeding or fighting constantly... too much testosterone I guess Smile
There is no doubt in my mind I could feed or age this bull into acceptance...

The biggest reason for regret in posting that picture is I have no offspring to debate with, we can post his sister, sire maybe find one of the dam and the commonality of his ancestry but.....
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:10 am

I'm sure not trying to defend popular AI bulls, I don't use them. I'll shut up and sign off now, sorry to offend.
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:42 am

The A.I bulls were a poor example and I hear what you saying as I believe the bulls you are talking about that show more masculinity at a younger age are capable of producing the cows both you and I enjoy.

What type of cow would one expect to get from my bull given the pictures provided and how far back in a picture pedigree of consistent type would one have to go, to be comfortable that he would produce the same kind?
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:13 am

AX- wrote:
I'm sure not trying to defend popular AI bulls, I don't use them. I'll shut up and sign off now, sorry to offend.
you are not offending anyone Brian; you are just presenting the argument and mis-understanding the masses will use to question and degrade the type of the bull that produces this reproductively functional type of cow pictured ...it is good practice for us; where the best answer is probably for me to shut up and instead demonstrate examples of those bulls/cows; but I don`t have enough pictures except in my mind of the bulls at various stages of their life...but that would not be enough for many; for there is none so blind as those who will not see...

this post is from Larry...
Quotes

Hilly - He is a favourite of mine and bred more cows here this year than any bull on the place as he is dominant in the Shoshone mob and when with my older bigger bulls if he can’t wear them down through fighting he will beat them to the punch anyway.

AX -This bull doesn't appear very masculine to me, what do his daughters look like, I realize they would be young The bull does not have any progeny on the ground yet Ok - teach me Mike. I'm ready for a lesson, I just don't see it. Now on the bull in the tall grass, I undoubtedly see it there, but I just see a long head and no rear. Not trying to be a pain, just want to see what I'm missing here.

To clarify any misunderstandings, Hillys bull is a maternal half brother to the cow pictured...the bull Mike pictured is the sire of his sister - the cow pictured. Hilly's bull was sired by what is referred to as a mob or multiple sire groups (MS). The dominant bull is the only true indicator I know of that determines masculinity who tend to sire the most progeny and in a mob, the cow will usually "stand" only for the bull of her choice, I have no idea why is.... might be for the same reason human females select their mates by whatever causes attraction.

With all respect for the performance movement, bull sellers often sell feed rather than seed. People say they don't like to buy fat bulls but seldom have I seen anyone buy a skinny one. Hilly's bull in the picture might be compared to that of an active track athlete devoid of any fat as a teenager compared to when he is mature and inactive.. The natural effects of close breeding whereby genes are "shut off" and then "restored" with the reintroduction of variation has caused me to rely much more on ancestry than individuality.

Over a relative period of time within my particular gene pool, selection for longevity of the cow tends to be related to maturity rate, yet it does not appear to be highly related to age at puberty. What we have all been told over the years about needing lots of ass on a bull tends to be counter productive for functional reproduction. A better visual indicator of muscle is the forearm. Longer rather than shorter bulky muscle tends to favor improved maternal function. But there are always too many other related factors to form definite conclusions. For reproduction, I have formed the opinion I don't want too much of anything ....whatever that means : )
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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:39 am

Quote :
The natural effects of close breeding whereby genes are "shut off" and then "restored" with the reintroduction of variation has caused me to rely much more on ancestry than individuality.

Larry, how do we know when genes are turned on and turned off. It seems that the term "average" would now have two components: average with genes on and average with genes off. (I understand that you described this with the boundaries of in-group breeding vs. outcrossing.) For lack of a better term, does the "gaunt look" in a young male signal "off"? What are the differences in females that express on and off? Is there a telling sign of genes off vs. other genetic things going on in an individual?

Quote :
selection for longevity of the cow tends to be related to maturity rate

Would this be why there are problems in herds or groups where replacements and males are always selected based on performance? I'd think so. And with much talk about target weights for heifers to reach puberty and breed, I'm guessing the % MW at 15 months old is pretty useless for the heifer that will win the age marathon as long as she will breed and calve?
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:46 am

from Rod Ross...



I will take a picture of one of 712's dau. as soon as I can and send it as well. I have close to 20hd. of 712 daus. to calve this spring. All first calf hfrs bred to calve in 45 days....100% breed up
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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:47 am

For the life of me, I thought my cattle were rather maternal. Judging from these pictures my cattle are no where near that. Have I been breeding terminal cattle and didn't know it as our cattle are definately a different type? scratch
The bull pictured as my avatar is my comparison. In the picture he was three and had been on grass with 25 females for a month and a half. Single sire in the pasture. Maybe he looks different because he wasn't fighting other bulls in a multiple sire breeding pasture. He actually put on weight while breeding cows.
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Hilly



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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:15 am

For me it is not so much one type vs. another as we all have a type we prefer that does what we want often enough to keep breeding them. I am reminded of the picture pedigree that Mike posted a while back. If we could post a picture pedigree of any given animal and all females in the pedigree were of the same personally preferred type do the odds they breed true go up....?

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PostSubject: Re: Symmetry and Scenery of a Red Lodge morning   Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:40 pm

what never was is now going to be...for I now know the Why of what could be is Not...
paraphrasing Jimmy Buffet...it`s my own damn fault...
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