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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:04 pm

MKeeney wrote:
Is it possible to make breeding stock or a system of breeding stock useage so demonstratively superior to change the way a mojority of commercial breeders view and buy breeding stock?


I don't think so and even if it was so demonstrably superior, human nature as Kent suggests would prevent a majority and a mojority change. Smile
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:28 pm

It would have to be a substantail mojority.




Fricken' smartass pseudo-canadian spellcheckers.
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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:38 pm

Tom D wrote:
It would have to be a substantail mojority.




Fricken' smartass pseudo-canadian spellcheckers.

Very Happy Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:06 pm

So just how many demerits is that onne worth Razz Razz
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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:19 pm

W.T wrote:
So just how many demerits is that onne worth Razz Razz

Very Happy Very Happy

If the substantail mojority was realized then we outliars would be the mainstream, then there would be no one to piss off, doesn't sound like much fun for a bunch of smart asses! Sad Just imagine if the Iowegian agreed, that is just creepy!
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:37 pm

To me the reality is within one's own operation. The cattle bussines is done on cycles and if you can stay ahead of the compitition you will not only survive but thrive. It is interesting that the seedstock producer is the one that can dirve the train if they tell their commercial people the truth. I truly believe that the only way you can get more from less is using trulines and producing for an end use. Whether it be replacements using tureline to renew themselfs, or crossing to make f1 hybreds for an end result. It will not matter who believes you it only matters to your bottom line and yourself. Bob H
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:45 pm

hmmm...
Bob, we agree on cattle, but I haven`t your faith in humanity dealing with truth...I believe a mojority want to bolieve a fairy tale.. Smile
I sure hope you and the full Howard staff can come to Miles City this year...
mk, in the vocinity of seeing how many credits it takes to install a goad spell checker.... Smile oh well, it`s the thought that counts Smile Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:34 pm

Dylan Biggs wrote:
W.T wrote:
So just how many demerits is that onne worth Razz Razz

Very Happy Very Happy

If the substantail mojority was realized then we outliars would be the mainstream, then there would be no one to piss off, doesn't sound like much fun for a bunch of smart asses! Sad Just imagine if the Iowegian agreed, that is just creepy!


Creepy is right and somewhere someone said that there were 2 smart people in IOWA and i cry BS, that is a myth if there everr was oone. If there are they must be the only IOWEAGIANS thast i havent pissed off as of yet but give me time just a little time, Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:16 am

The truth is that we can not do anything except do what we think is the right thing for the right reason. This is capitolism at its finest. We share what we know and move forward. The money will sort out the bullshit in no more than 2 cycles and probably in one. What we cannot do is let the peridigms in our minds hold us back. We must continue to share and digest what we think is true today so that we can move on. Thanks for everyones comments.
Hilly thanks for your gift with words. Bob H
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Larry Leonhardt



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PostSubject: first installment of summary   Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:20 pm

How time flies, another summer is about over already.     Betty and I certainly enjoyed seeing old friends and meeting new ones at this years KC gathering.    One of the highlights of our summers for the past many years is looking forward to Mike and Linda's annual visit with us at Red Lodge.   Over the years my close relationship with Mike has helped bring many very special people into our lives.   Thank you everyone from far and wide across the country for traveling down the road less traveled to form a community of friends helping friends with a common cause.    What I always remember most that is so special is all those sincere sparkling eyes on smiling faces among this unique group of great personalities....thank you all for those precious moments that always fill me with joy in remembrance.

Under another KC topic, Will once said in his farming operation that his new GPS helps him avoid expensive overlaps especially with the ever increasing costs of fertilizer, fuel, etc. Adding more expense to reduce expenses is about par with much of what we do in the cattle business.....and government. Very Happy

Since I am a poor manager, I am the least qualified to offer advice on management practices in the cattle business, but I have managed to stay out of debt while making a decent living farming and raising cattle. Like any other business, obviously to survive in agriculture , we can't spend more than we make and remain viable. The major emphasis in the cattle breeding world has been on increasing production. Most of you know that my primary effort here has been to promote ways that genetics can help produce quality beef for the least cost and expenditure of labor.....placing more emphasis on the INPUT side of the ledger.
It has been three months since my last post and after bellowing the same ole stuff for 30 years and repeating it on 100 pages of interchanging dialogue under this topic, there is not much left that hasn't been said. However, events at the last gathering have rekindled an old flame. After taking time to give much thought to all that was discussed during the last "KC gathering", the new separate "Tru-Line" topic Mike created on KC sounds encouraging but I am very concerned about some of the misguided interpretations of just what "Tru-Line" represents.
I would hope that this new topic can be like a free GPS to help guide each of our own directions by sharing experiences to avoid expensive overlaps each doing the same things over and over again often expecting a better result. It is hard to be quarrelsome when we only deal with facts. In this business it often seems the faster we go spinning "bro-dies" the more confused and behind-er we get. Let's take a time out and REVIEW THE RESULTS of what we're doing in the overall beef business.
Firstly, I have decided that this will be my last post under "Reflections by LL". I've enjoyed the interchange of dialogue reflecting on what's been done but all that is now history and it is time to focus more on our selection directions in preparation for the needs of the future BEEF industry. We must overcome our nostalgic emotions tied to the past. So any future posts I make will be under Mike's newly created topic "Tru-Line" - where the mission is to encourage and promote the development of functional strains rather than clinging onto the old habits of the ever changing traditional breeds. "Tru-Line" is nothing more than a concept, an OPTIONAL direction towards harnessing hybrid power - it is NOT an organized association of members who qualify or disqualify anyone or their cattle....... but a common unified directional effort to ORGANIZE genetics. The "Tru-Line" direction is not just my baby, it can be a "GPS" available for anyone, registered or otherwise.
Most of us on KC are aware that this old progressive concept is somewhat of an opposite direction to the current fashion of “helter skelter” breeding by the numbers (using either within or across breed INDIVIDUAL EPD ) to increase individual production.

Like breeds, a strain is defined as a lineage of presumed common ancestry, a GROUP with physiological distinctions..... however, the distinctive difference is that the major emphasis is to increase prepotency by reducing rather than expanding variation, or "differences"......to STABILIZE the exceptional or unusual ability of the ENTIRE STRAIN to transmit its specific FUNCTIONAL characters to offspring with continuity......where the worship of mortal individuals is superseded by the immortality of "population" genetics......purebred breeding in its very finest form to provide a more consistent renewal process IN BEEF PRODUCTION.

Selecting the characters for a strain is where the water gets muddied, we always want more than that which can be ECONOMICALY sustained. Any value of any strain is ultimately measured by its usefulness in a competitive marketplace. Academia has often told us that progress is made with variation, that reducing variation would be a regressive movement but they don't make their living with cattle.... most commercial cattlemen do. Some of you might think this direction of "organizing" genetics is like starting over. To the contrary, it is a continuation of what began over 200 years ago that often gets side tracked along the way for a host of reasons that we are all too familiar with. Those reasons have been cussed and discussed on these 100 pages as well as on thousands of industry-wide periodicals related to the cattle business.....it is from mistakes that we learn so we should be a lot smarter by now.  Smile

Many years ago, we would have committees of bull buyers come, a group of 5 or 6 men who represented their grazing associations who jointly utilized the same public lands. As they went through the bulls, some would pick the shorter thicker ones, some the bigger framed stretchery ones, etc. When I explained to my father what I wanted to do, he told me he was too old to undertake this direction to reduce variation by developing different strains...that we needed to maintain variation to satisfy all the different customers that might happen to turn in our driveway. Within this partnership without any interference from my father, I began my own independent small "experiment". Like what will happen to all of us, eventually my father retired and this small experiment some 30 years later has led to what encompasses nearly the entire Shoshone herd today.....still making a decent living without trying to satisfy every customer that turns into our driveway......in a real life world without the prevalent over glorified rainbow promotional schemes. I do worry about the "Shoshone" prefix being misrepresented as more or less than it actually is.

Correcting mistakes. Since I was fortunate enough to be in on the ground floor when the creators of the numerical systems implemented their models, I just happened to be in a position to know first hand that the creators were absolutely and completely unaware of where this mechanical robot they created would take us. Restricted in their own scientific world without any real experienced comprehension of the whole, they completely ignored the warnings and failed to program the most vital element into their robot, the human element. They were forewarned that to create a national bank of individual comparisons derived from a multiple of diverse environments and management practices, that it would lead to disastrous consequences. But they marched onward hailing their scientific EXPLORATIONS as progress and anyone not following this modern day computerized robot would be left behind in this competitive world.

Of course their initial motives were to rectify the calamity the registered breeds got themselves into chasing extremes, with renewed emphasis on measuring the so called "traits of economic importance". "They" conveniently overlooked the fact that their peers were the judges at the livestock shows that led to disaster. At one point I suggested that they may as well develop EPD for the show standards too, and of course over time we've seen how every encounter with a problem creates a new EPD. By now I think we are up to about 30 problems to "measure & rectify" as listed in sire summaries and AI catalogs. Little did they know their robot would be starting one bush fire after another....measuring averages without regard to distributions is a shotgun approach where the further we are from a target, the wider the scatter.

These are not my opinions but simple historic facts. So it was back at that point in time when I decided to form the "Tru-Line" concept. Although ignored, I persisted in my own small world since it had become very clear that someday there would be a need to reorganize genetics to restore order to the mongrelization that was surely to follow those well intended "progressive directions" that lead to continual change and uncertain chaos.
With it being customary for most endings to present a brief overall summation of what has been said under "Reflections by LL", I am reminded that at one point in time MK indicated he would like to edit/condense this topic. I realize very few people want to take the time to read 100 long pages of repetitive dialogue, especially if its contrary to what they're doing quarreling about this or that.. While it is difficult to briefly summarize all the detailed examples of the successes, failures and opinions offered by everyone here on KC, this is my attempt to condense those 100 pages down to this one long page.

I am not here for personal gain or glory. My participation is nothing more than the sharing of one man's lifetime of experience in the cattle breeding world.....hopefully, to provide some educational value to help the smallest to the largest commercial producers (who are ALSO breeders) help themselves via greater genetic understanding by working with rather than fighting Nature.....who always has the last word about anything we can do.
Many of my "reflections" were examples provided to encourage other cattle breeders to stop and think.....to question where our current selection directions are likely to take us. So to narrow this all down to one primary controversial subject, I chose to dwell on the cliche of mating "fire and ice" - which I interpret as using the "top" of something to bring up the "bottom" of something to reach some kind of preferred average quicker. I've noticed one thing that sparks interest and active participation and that is a controversial subject.
Facts override projected opinions. I once told MK that I was no longer going to debate the pros and cons of mating "fire and ice" , AND THEIR VALUES, but now I am since that methodology seems to be the thrust that has propelled both the mainstream "show" and "performance" breeding directions. For the last 30 years I have been battling that common traditional methodology in the cattle breeding world which tends to ignore the consequential expanding distributions and problems therefrom within any population. The factual HYPOCRACY of the registered societies is well documented. Purebred breeding is a refining process to establish a type, yet the directions to expand and promote variation are opposite of that initial PRIMARY purpose. When does an animal become a "purebred"? What is their purpose? Why do we keep changing breed "types"? Are the registered societies a group of purebred breeders or marketing multipliers of change? What is functional purity? Does functional purity even have a role in beef production? What is the difference between a registered breeder and a commercial breeder?
In an attempt to clarify some of these questions, I've been told that when we are confused, our brains are wired to try to make sense out of whatever we're doing for justification. So I am beginning this not so brief summation of the ongoing confusing state of affairs with Will's response to my last post:
"LL good questions. So do you think all crossbreeding is fire and ice?"

No Will, I don't....in fact, I see little difference in crossing fire and ice whether it is within or across breeds. From my viewpoint it all just seems to be a matter of degrees. Throughout history the mainstream registered business has awarded the gold medal to whomever or whatever is the "hottest".....the chase for supreme champions or extreme trait leaders as if the BEEF industry was in some kind of olympian contest. Breeding seedstock for the commercial industry is certainly not a game, it is an "extremely" immense responsibility. So if outliers/extremes are considered fire (the top) and ice (the bottom) within any distribution, I finally got tired of getting burnt and watching others suffer from these uncontrollable fires just for the delight of the arsonists/pyromaniacs who started them while basking in their rewards with the victims else being the ultimate "losers". .I am embarrassed to say I once was one of these "pyromaniacs", blaming my ignorance for justification while basking in my own monetary rewards.
For example, if "White Cow's" attempt to stabilize his Char/Wagyu F1's to form a new or better breed or type is considered crossing fire and ice (extreme opposites).....which one is the fire and which one the ice in their own world? And after many years of expensive cloning and ultrasounding his selected individuals to combine the best of two worlds, the"magic" of that first cross will surely be ECONOMICALLY unsustainable battling the subsequent natural reversion processes...... and somewhere among the ashes of all this burned up energy lies an affordable, sustainable, compromised version very similar to an "average Angus" in type.....yet today an "average Angus" is virtually a non-existant mythical creature with very little demand in the traditional registered world....I challenge anyone to find one based on numerical data. The question is why go through many years of hassle seeking some kind of miracle when the F1's can already be more affordably produced as "seedless fruit".
So I had to smile when Will asked MK to explain where optimum is, never quite getting a direct answer. I suppose optimum is in the temperate zones somewhere in between the hot equator and the frigid poles where we migrate back and forth with the changing seasons to stay comfortable never quite finding that illusive "garden of Eden"....optimum being an ideal place where there are no extremes, no droughts nor monsoons, no feast nor famine, no kings nor slaves, no trait leaders nor losers, no fire and ice where cattle do everything jusssst right.   Smile

I connected these thoughts to Grassfarmer's post in which he wrote in part:
"By age 9 I knew I wanted to earn my living with cows. This old pet was already a teenager and looks to be in rough shape as we were in a drought that year. (this was also one of the last time I wore shorts)"



I had to smile, we're always conscious about "looks". There are many ways to earn a living with cows and I don't know if Grassfarmer's "Shorthorn" cow descended from fire and ice or not but she certainly "looks" like a productive cow, a SURVIVOR, and I love that picture. Shorthorns were once one of the most popular beef breeds but lost its popularity due to the selection of extremes, so the breed was split, one a milking shorthorn, the other a beef shorthorn, then to try to "keep up" with the "performance races" in North America, they were put back together again. I haven't seen where that recombination has helped the breed regain popularity. According to Grassfarmer, Shorthorns played a part in the development phases of the Luing breed which was originated out of frustration with the selection "movements" of the traditional beef breeds in the British Isles.
When I was a young lad, commercial Hereford breeders would occasionally introduce a Shorthorn bull to put a little more milk into their cows due to the emphasis on "beefiness" ......but any brocko faced or roan progeny were always discounted by the packer buyers.....which of course backed up into a lesser demand for those "crosses" by feeders. And we've witnessed the once predominant straightbred Herefords regress to being discounted in the marketplace with the black/whiteface being more favorable. The stigma of general breed biased reputations are still with us today whether warranted or not which leads to continual change in order to survive.....which in turn leads to the WITHIN breed crossing of "fire and ice" with exorbitant monetary values placed on those "straight-bred" animals who can produce change the quickest.
Several years ago the Hereford people had a great internal battle accusing others of mixing Simmental into the "breed" to produce "super Herefords". Of course people can be temporarily fooled but not nature, for they also transmitted some of the inherent problems of the Simmental breed.....resulting in more problems to "rectify" via selection by the numbers.
Today in the USA Angus are the predominant breed, being promoted to do everythingi, with their great variation all we have to do is go to the sire summary and help ourselves to the salad bar of numbers. And we have the gall to call them "purebreds".when collectively they are nothing more than registered mongrels whose only commonality is that they are black, red or polled. The hypocrisy is that as a whole breed, genetically they are no different than crossbreds.....just something to think about. In any event, beyond these facts I thoroughly enjoyed what Iain said when asked why he moved from what many of us from desert country thought that Scotland "looked" nearly like a garden of Eden from his pictures - he said:

"As for how could I leave Scotland there are a multitude of reasons - a few for starters: can't live on scenery alone (lack of profitability), lack of opportunity to expand, land prices further removed from productive value than N. America, insanely complicated ag subsidy programs driving everything you do, outrageous levels of Government regulation in agriculture, almost constant wind and rain, too much rain in the non-growing season, too much mud in the non-growing season, aging infrastructure from the 1800s all needing repaired (land all tile drained and stone wall fenced), archaic buildings from the same era that weren't much use but you couldn't adapt/modify/demolish, too much back trouble working with sheep, too much work period.
It wasn't all bad of course but in my opinion the negatives outweighed the positives so I moved. "


I guess that's why someone said "looks can be deceiving", that "you have to live with someone before you can really know 'em". Iain's devoted interest in improving his cattle is more than just earning a living with cattle, it is a worthwhile way of life and only he knows his own cattle best, that no one can accurately appraise them by the way they "look" on any given day. Once you get to know Grassfarmer, he certainly has "things" figured out. The registered world can "look" very good from the outside but it is also full of disappointment on the inside after living within that world awhile......or we wouldn't be paying outrageous sums for outliers trying to attract new members or customers with HIGH EXPECTATIONS.
I couldn't help but correlate how here on KC we have debated at length a multitude of SIMILAR REASONS for either staying within the status quo or moving on beyond the restraints AND underlying problems of the "old" registered world. I suspect most of us chose to move on only when the negatives began outweighing the positives .....to enjoy the independent freedom to make a living with cattle without the restraints created by organizations. When Mike created KC, it became a refuge for renegades outside the mainstream and has been like having access to a free psychiatric clinic open 24/7.

Psychiatrist’s tell us the first step to curing bad habits is by digging into the past to get to the roots of whatever ails us.. We have done this and by now most of us on KC know that the old traditional habits of the registered mainstream persist primarily because of the lucrative monetary rewards for the more rare individual outliers ....the "fire" which also often become the roots of our self-inflicted genetic problems leaving us with too many ashes to clean up in the aftermath. So we have become the embittered, bitching and complaining about things blaming or criticizing others.... which is a favorite human pass time but it has never solved anything. All we need to do is put our own house in order rather than expecting someone else to do it for us.
We do this like firefighter investigators who go through burned buildings to find out what started the fire....we could describe "tru-line" as being a handbook for "fire prevention".  Very Happy

When MK posted an article written by Dr. Wayne Wagner, it became the primary inspiration for this summation. A well educated man, Dr. Wagner's article is typical of what many of us have experienced over time, well worth the time it takes for any inexperienced person to re-read and thoroughly digest the contents - to wit:

"Can You Breed Maternal and Terminal at the Same Time?

By Dr. Wayne Wagner, WVU Extension Livestock Specialist.
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Larry Leonhardt



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:10 am

"Can You Breed Maternal and Terminal at the Same Time?
By Dr. Wayne Wagner, WVU Extension Livestock Specialist.

I have been looking at our cow herd inventory and I have discovered that a high percentage of our A.I. sired females are not making cows that will stay in the herd. Why? Because I have bred for the wrong things! I am embarrassed to admit it. Over the past several years, I have concentrated on using A.I. extensively and have tried to keep daughters of these bulls. My problem is that by the time they should be six years old; too many of them are gone.

Sometimes we need a wake-up call and I have had mine. What am I breeding for and what are my objectives? Clearly, I want to produce cattle that work for the commercial cattle industry. I am breeding Angus cattle and they are considered a maternal breed. So what makes cattle maternal or terminal? Obviously, if a high percentage of the females don't last very long, they are terminal and not maternal. So, do we have terminal and maternal Angus? Yes, and the same can be said of Herefords too!

The American Angus Association has a terminal sire index called $B. If you select for $B, you will be selecting against maternal. It has been quite a few years ago that I bought an Angus bull called Stone Gate Potter. He was a maternal bull and probably the best bull I ever owned. Nearly every daughter he produced worked as a cow and a high percentage made it to fifteen years of age. These are my observation of that bull:
1.His daughters were better than his bull calves. The bull caves didn't blow you away but the females look great after they calved.
2.He had decent growth (for 1980), but wasn't extreme.
3.He was complete-without holes (maternal calving ease, structurally correct, fleshing ability, and moderate frame).

I want to build a cow herd and I want females that will last. To do that, I need to quit trying to compete with everyone else and breed cattle to make females. That's the priority! What do I mean by that? If you are a commercial cattleman, you want to sell the most pounds at weaning that you can sell and if you test bulls at a test station, you want the fastest gaining, highest indexing bull to sell. However, if you are a commercial or seedstock producer with these objectives, you are not breeding for females that will both work and last. A student of mine put it this way: if you want steers, use a terminal bull but if you want cows, use a maternal bull. There are limits to how much you can expect and to achieve extreme levels of growth and/or milk production is very stressful and any cow can only handle that much stress for a limited amount of time. If you were to characterize an old cow in a herd, she would be anywhere from slightly below to slightly above average in production at weaning, she is fertile, andshe hasn't had any calving difficulty. Will you get these average cows selecting extreme "spread" bulls? Not likely!

So where do I go from here? First, I am looking for seedstock herds that have some 15-yearold cows as opposed to those that don't have a cow over 10. Secondly, I look for a bull (or sons of a bull) whose daughters do seem to last. I want to see a bull's dam. Third, I am looking for a seedstock breeder whose goal is not to produce the heaviest, fattest calf possible. If someone is breeding to produce the heaviest steer and/or the biggest bulls possible, then they are not breeding maternal cattle. There is a place for those cattle, but not in my herd because the females will not last. I have made more than my share of mistakes of late, but change has to be start sometime. I have used some of the most used bulls in the Angus breed of late, and on average they haven't made good females-that is what my inventory tells me."

WHAT A CONTINUOUS COMMON TRAGEDY THAT NEED NOT BE - WE SPEND MOST OF OUR LIVES SEEING WRONGS AND THEN SPEND THE REST OF OUR LIVES TRYING TO RIGHT THEM WITH SO LITTLE TIME LEFT TO ACCOMPLISH MUCH- "SO WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?"
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Larry Leonhardt



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:17 pm

Not much can be done if all of our time is spent running around dousing one bush fire after another. We know that during their formative years, Herefords, Angus and Shorthorns were primarily bred for" beef", but cows must've been important or keeping track of cow families would not have been initiated. .For those of you who couldn't attend the last KC gathering at Miles City, please know I was especially intrigued by one of the very first slides presented to us at the Fort Keogh Research Station. It stated that the initial purpose in the 1920's and 30's was to develop lines for crossing in order to produce higher yielding hybrids similar to the successful methodology then being practiced by corn breeders. Whatever their initial selection criteria was in each of the several lines, the only line that survived to date were the Line 1's and 80 or 90 years later, to my knowledge that initial purpose has not been implemented. Could it have been their selection criteria?

However, we were shown maps that illustrated the infusion of the Line 1's is in over 50% of the Hereford breed's ancestry today.....some think the Line 1's were the major contributor to the salvation of the Hereford breed in North America. Without question to that extent, the Line 1's have been very successful in serving a purpose. Are they going "too far"? Today, the research team at Ft. Keough still maintains the first priority of selection which is maximizing yearling weight.....but the current team expressed their concern with the lowering trend of fertility and increase in birthweights.....we were told that less than 80% of the cows are getting rebred. Fearing possible extinction, the current team is trying to ascertain whether the problem is management or genetic. I had to smile when we learned that the "management teams" salary was based on the sales of the cattle, that they wouldn't breed their own cattle "that way".
Based on my observations of many different cattle over the years, I believe the problem is simply the natural consequence of the "Line 1" selection priority. However, while we were told the YW trend is still going up after 80 years. I am convinced that the SURVIVING females tend to slow down the advances in "growth" contributed by the males and that the Line 1's would become extinct before they could ever reach the maximum limits of the Line 1's growth potential. Watching several high performance breeders who's primary selection is for butts and guts also needed to select for nuts.

Losing strong sexual distinction between the sexes, they have had to rely on sustaining variation in this ongoing battle which allows nature to uphold reproduction from the functional females within the variance of the distributions..... these surviving females become fewer and fewer over time, thereby lowering their average conception rates. I've also experienced this natural reaction in my herd....so from the 80 years of research results of constant selection criteria, Fort Keogh has at least reaffirmed that much.
My limited observations of the surviving Line 1 cow herd was as expected, that they were quite acceptable functional cows. What would have been much more interesting to see would've been all the non-survivors over the years. We didn't see but a handful of the maternal composite herd that Ft. Keogh began developing about a dozen years ago.....nor did we need to at this early stage in their development. I don't know if this attempt to develop an ideal red Montana range cow is a continuation of their initial goals which began 80 years ago or not. I am NOT familiar with the Ft Keogh selection priorities for their maternal composite or why they decided to develop a maternal line. Perhaps the purpose of the ideal range cow maternal line's design is to compliment the Line 1's and will be implemented after 15 generations or another 80 years to stabilize this maternal composite. Within the current distributions they are still experiencing reversions back to the original breeds and it sounded like the biggest human problem thus far was disposition, a highly heritable trait. Ben told us when he worked there at calving time, about 20% of the cows would try to kill 'ya.....I don't know if that trait would be down to 10% or up to 50% since that time. By the way, has anyone noticed the industry has recently created new EPD for stayability and docility......I wonder why. Question

Dr. Wagner, the extension specialist, couldn't blame his problems on inbreeding or the loss of variation, or any particular individual bull....his maternal problems originated from HIS selection criteria. So I felt a sense of satisfaction when Dr. Wagner was enlightened saying - "There are limits to how much you can expect and to achieve extreme levels of growth and/or milk production is very stressful and any cow can only handle that much stress for a limited amount of time. If you were to characterize an old cow in a herd, she would be anywhere from slightly below to slightly above average in production at weaning, she is fertile, and she hasn't had any calving difficulty. Will you get these average cows selecting extreme "spread" bulls? Not likely!" Nature's distributions will usually provide a few, and they will pull down the primary "high performance" selection criteria, an expensive culling proposition that naturally occurs. I could provide examples from several "old" herds but there is no need to identify them on this public forum.

As an extension specialist, Dr. Wagner could have learned some of these things from the dairy industry before he had to re-discover the same ole things again. And so I felt contentment when I saw Jack's cows who were neither fat nor exceptionally high milkers since his direction is not trying to wean 900# calves by using SAF bulls in his environment.....which incidentally is similar to the Line 1's although the management is different....Jack has a lot less people managing his outfit...with the least expenditure of labor. Smile Like Dr. Wagner, Jack has said he was enlightened several years ago and now earns a more contented living with his structural functional cows who swing their hips when walking a coupla miles to water with healthy calves rather than waddling followed by runty calves....... and I didn't see anyone at the "gathering" searching for that outlier cow (the one with the biggest calf) either at Jack's or the cattle at Fort Keogh. I regret that they didn't cause more than likely they would have seen that they weren't the biggest, thickest cows with the highest RFI scores in the herds.

Always conscious of "looks", what would that mythical "average Angus cow" actually look like in reality, the one that's overlooked by the mainstream registered people? Probably a lot like Jack's work and wear cows. I had thought my cows were also about average Angus cows but without changing them, alas, I've watched the movement of the industry turn them into being well below breed average in most of the numerically measured traits. For those who didn't hear Bootheel Joe's talk at the banquet, what I remember most is when he talked about "truth".

I thoroughly enjoyed seeing cattle in their natural habitat and the complete absence of any overblown glorification or exaggerated promotional claims which are so common in this business. Anyway, for whatever it's worth, the foregoing seven paragraphs are my overall synopsis of the Miles City gathering. As usual, I certainly enjoyed all the pictures Dylan and his lovely wife and daughter took to capture those moments in time....except for the one of me standing beside Dennis.....looks can be deceiving, phenotypically we are certainly fire and ice but genotypically we are identical twins. Very Happy

Some of us on KC know how MK's ability to capture one moment in time on film has brought a few of my below average cows to the forefront. Mike recently posted the below picture of one of them on KC, as a young cow who apparently caught his eye 9 yrs ago. I think Mike has a more recent picture of her in his photo files since she is no longer a "Shoshone" cow, nor EVEN AN ANGUS cow.....she is now a KEENEY cow since it was HIS selection criteria that made her a Keeney Model A cow.....obviously, he and only he is responsible for HIS selection criteria, whether it stems from within or outside his herd.

MKeeney wrote:
",,,,,,, I came upon a picture of 2966 as a three year old; she hasn`t changed much in nine years even after her current stay in ky.."


"I don`t believe she`s maternally efficient though, she looks like she could hold a lot of grass... "
When I saw this picture, I smiled thinking "wow, this is a 'Keeney Portrait of Maternal Structural Perfection' from the tip of her tail to her shiny nose, I wanna entire herd of Model A cows jusssst like her". Smile Under another topic Bootheel said: "This is where it gets muddy, and people start getting mad, throwing tantrums and saying ''average, average, we don't need no stinking average cows". I laughed thinking maybe we need more numerical "below average" cows.

This cow pictured in the middle of summer raising her 2nd calf with a body condition that is indicative that we are what we eat.....born in 2000, now a 12 yr. old replication of her grandams who were paternal half sisters born in the late 80's. Her established exceptional fertility and problem free functional maternal values are a direct result of the selection criteria., not an accidental by-product of numerical selection. She has less than breed average EPD except that she is way above average in CEM and $EN (dollars saved on maintenance requirements)....so she doesn't qualify as an "average Angus model"....... remember they are virtually non-existent.
And being close bred she certainly is a long ways from being an "F1" cross descending from fire and ice. Mike can attest that these "picture perfect" cows produce about "average" progeny so they certainly couldn't be labeled as being fire but since my entire existing herd would all have similar EPD, I suppose the mainstream would consider them to be a herd of ice frozen in time.....I do consider the most problem free ones to be the "icing" on the cake.... but I doubt they are suited best for the northern fringes of Canada or the southern fringes of Argentina. Smile Nuff said about my "below average" population of cows.....who are neither above or below average when compared to themselves.....like Jack said about his cattle - "I LIKE THEM AND THAT SUITS ME". Very Happy

Folks, we all had to get our cattle from somewhere. In the registered world, the breed's public pedigrees are provided for some kind of "authenticity" which allows giving credit or damnation to any ancestry. Breeds or pedigrees are often chosen because they either seem to fit our selection criteria or in order to ride on that breed's or individual animal's coattails or simply because of ancestral reputation We're all riding on the coattails of something done before us until we hop off with our knapsack to clear our own path.
Although the Pioneer or DeKalb's breeders know the characters of the parentage in their knapsack, the general public has no need to know. Although K.A. Clark had his own treasure chest full of nostalgic paraphernalia, commercial customers sole interest was in their results. In an ideal Tru-Line world, any references to or comparisons with any breed or breeder's parent stock is avoided, the name of the breeder and the strain's earned reputation are the authenticity and any commercial breeder's sole interest is in the reliability of the results. The registered world has a policy of "trust but verify", a result of those not so few apples spoiling the whole barrel.

It will take quite some time before a mindset can readjust its thinking from what has been engrained for so long. The "Tru-Line" direction is not quarreling over IBC's which is just another numerical measure based on averages. Races to achieve the highest IBC's are likely to result in the same disasters as other numercial races. Without going into any details here, for those who "must measure", it may be more meaningful to measure the prepotency in the range of distributions of the population as a result of any selection.
In the meantime Mike, for those with dimming eyesight like you and I, could you please lighten the shadow of 2966 so us nit-pickers can see her underline better.

at 11



The shadow makes her look deeper than she is long.....and I'm thinking that's why you think she can hold a lot of grass and isn't maternally efficient. How much grass should a maternally efficient cow hold? Most of us wonder what those illusive maternally efficient cows "look" like?
From the Triangle research, in his last newsletter Gavin expressed his concern as to "whether the most efficient cows have the best calves or where the calves lie in the high efficiency, control and low efficiency lines. This is of course of vital importance. It is no use us breeding a very efficient line of cows if their calve’s are rubbish and I wonder whether you lose variation as a cost." Tom D recently sent me an email to show me what several of the higher producing Pinebank cows "looked" like.....who are about 10 years old listed with pedigrees on the Pinebank NA web page. They can be viewed by clicking on the following address but I must forewarn you Dennis, nearly half of them are missing their long tail hairs Smile

http://pinebanknorthamerica.com/category/foundation-dams/

Maternally efficient cows - Dairy cows do alot more than produce dairy steers and it is well established that dairy steers have low RFI scores. I might also mention that several years ago Dr. Gosey researched several commercial herds in Nebraska and found that those cowherds with "average Hereford or Angus cows" were the most profitable. I wondered where those herds got those "average cows".
Dr. Gosey's research also coincided with the research results at Bozeman, MT, where that same university tried to develop a "black/baldy" breed and failed as they reverted back to the average of the parents, where in another new research project they measured the cow's excrement from different "types" to determine how much lactating cows ate on pasture compared to how much calf weight they produced. Long story short, the average producing cows were overall the most profitable......the higher producing cows required more maintenance even when not lactating.....yet the "performance mania" persists and high priced super cows are flushed. In light of this research, maybe we oughta be flushing the recipient cows, the ones that can do all the functional work with the fewest problems, the ones salvaged by Nature's survival of the fittest that haven't been screwed up by EPD races......could they be the most efficient cows?

Dr. Wagner said "sometimes we need a wake up call". I had mine about 30 years ago. Filled with bewilderment hiding my disappointments, I finally had enuff 'a this "stacking" maximum performance crap. So I spent several years of intensive study compulsively obsessed to better understand the bovine.... paying close attention to what my cows were telling me to find out what the hell was going on. I finally said to myself " its the endocrine system, stupid" that's causing many of my problems. So in 1984 I analyzed the sire summary along with my assortment of produce of dam summaries to reaffirm that my previous observations were on track.
Back in those days all we measured universally was BW, WW, YW and maternal EBV's which were based on a sire's daughter's progeny ratios....back before creative computer imaging became available.....back before we could simply press a few buttons and the computer will instantly sort our national cattle data bank into groups according to any numerical selection criteria. So I had spent a couple of months of tedious handiwork to publicly display my data analysis by creating a graphic chart using different colors of "pinstripe tape", each color representing one of the four measures.

Enjoying my fascination with colors doing this similarly to the way I prepared the TruLine booklet - while neglecting my other essential duties - it turned out that the sacrificial time I spent in preparing this "chart" was all in vain. It was completely dismissed by everyone I sent it to. Perhaps the intended purpose was not recognized since it is a little confusing. So for this summation, I dug it back out of my dusty pile of "research stuff" to display it publicly for KC readers in order to visually demonstrate the natural trade-offs we were encountering while we were pursuing continual increases in individual growth/performance. Perhaps 28 years later, this time if I can explain it properly, it might help Dylan and Bootheel decide which direction to go from their rendezvous in Albuquerque.
I had sorted the bulls in the sire summary into two groups, one group consisted of all the highest growth bulls listed who had a YW EPD of over 50# with a minimum accuracy of .80 ......which resulted in 63 of the top eligible growth sires at that time. The other tediously sorted group consisted of the highest maternal sires who had a maternal EBV of 105 or over with a minimum accuracy of .90 .....which resulted in 39 of the top maternal sires......altogether a 102 bulls that were the current primary driving forces leading the "performance" movement......the "outliers". Professional academics and researchers get paid to do this stuff...... being a simple laymen, I did it for free at the expense of buying new school clothes for my kids or a dress for my wife. Smile



In this bar graph, each four-colored vertical bar represents a single sire, each color represented where each sires comparative ranking was on a national scale for the four measured traits. The bulls within each group were then arranged in ascending order based on their YW EPD from left to right ......and then I placed the maternal and growth group side by side. I was surprised by the fact that only FOUR out of 102 bulls qualified to be in both groups.....so I removed those four sires from their YW order and displayed them in the center of the graph between the maternal and growth groups.

When finally finished, like statisticians normally do, I drew a straight RED line thru the the scatter for growth and a straight GREEN line thru the scatter of the maternal EBV's to show the trends. The "yellow" maternal EBV's were low accuracy and it should be noted that nearly all moved downward when higher accuracies became available. Some high growth bulls who had a non-parent predicted maternal EBV (yellow) as high as 108 ended up with an actual MEBV of 95 as the accuracies increased, so just ignore those yellow bars, if they were green they would be lower. The average of the measures of each group are shown on the chart between each group with the little colored arrows. The widest distance between the colored arrows between the two groups was BW (brown), which of course led to the earlier maturing so called curve bending spread bulls as fat replaced muscle to maintain more weight on a smaller frame and on and on and on the circus of cycles goes as the distributions get wider and wider but those are stories for another day.

As you can plainly see my friends , from this crude chart the trend of the red and green lines formed somewhat of an "X", one line goes up and the other goes down which was the data affirmation of my own observations which also coincides with Dr. Wagner’s own more recent experiences. Natural law has not changed nor have my opinions behind the need for maternal and paternal strains. These incremental trends happen so slowly, we hardly notice them in the entire mixed up population of cattle but they are reflected over time in our culling percentages.....similar to what Dr. Wagner experienced in his "inventory". These are not "blue sky" opinions, but factual data which we can all observe sooner or later out in our own real world..
If anyone has any questions regarding this crude chart, I will try to answer them. When I prepared the outline for this summation, I had intended to prepare a new colorful computer generated modern day chart with the 25-30 newer measures to demonstrate the unintended consequences of "fire and ice" selection but it just got too confusin'..... my new "chart" started to resemble a kaleidoscope trying to measure the trends of continuous changing directions,, so I just stayed with the old one to make a single point. Smile
One other point I would like to make and that is those top maternal sires daughters would not have been as productive if they had NOT been mated to the growth sires on the other end of the spectrum. I'm sure all the data overload is as confusin to all you commercial men out there as it is to me and maybe that's the purpose of it......confuse the enemy to keep the status quo flowing..
So now I'm down to touching on the ridiculously high dollar values the pyromaniacs place on outliers, the fuel that feeds the fire that we all pay dearly for. When Will mentioned his neighbor who produced 200 bushel of corn per acre while the others produced about 100 bushel per acre.....it wasn't genetics that made the difference since they all likely planted a similar type of seed, the big difference was that the 200 bushel producer knew how to nurture nature better. Yet in the cattle breeding world, we often criticize people who creep feed their calves or keep their cattle in good condition in order to "express or maximize" their genetic potential.....and in a production oriented society we're besieged by nutritionists who tell us if we feed this and that, and listen to experts who tell us if we do this and that, how much it will improve our production..... not always necessarily our profit.

Introducing more energy into a commercial production system is not necessarily bad if it improves the profit, however, in the mainstream registered promotion business nearly everything is attributed to genetics.......whatta buncha hogwash, God and the steer jocks know its the nutrition. Many of us are familiar with replicated plant trials under identical environmental conditions wherein on average genetics accounts for about 5% of the difference among the different competitive hybrid varieties. And in cattle breeding, it takes a hell've bull or an unusual effect of heterosis to genetically produce much more than 5% of the differences among the current contemporaries. The exceptional animal's overall progeny might ratio 105 over the average of them all in weight and its not all free, the progeny likely required more energy as well in addition to any other consequential subsequent misgivings.

We readily accept that 200 bu. corn requires more nutrients than 100 bu. yields, but with cattle we want them to be higher producers without additional support. The traditional habit is to flock to registered breeders who promote heavy weaning or yearling weights and then pay dearly for 95% of THEIR environment......whatta buncha economic hogwash. We've witnessed how much bigger cattle got from increasing individual "performance" and how the $EN values have plummeted. There is only one way to describe the status quo of the mainstream registered world - ECONOMIC CRAZINESS. Very Happy

If we're going to select bulls for maternally efficient beef cows as the FIRST PRIORITY, the first bulls we oughta cut the nuts from would be the outliers to save us a lot of aggravation down the road instead of paying a small fortune for them.......now that statement oughta stir up some controversy for debates. Very Happy But who the hell knows what today's young bulls will actually transmit maternally based on their individual phenotype with all their mixed up ancestry which tends to nullify their non-parent EPD .....which is likely based on a composite of fire and ice averages. So science protects their computerized robot by beginning with very low accuracies, I just wish science, like the government, would quit trying to help us so much Very Happy

Hilly posted:
One observation I had when first starting with beef cattle coming from the dairy was the amount of time spent looking and talking about bulls, didn’t matter if it was sale day or just a herd visit the bulls were always the focal point, it really took me by surprise... I would go to a bull sale and everyone was in the pens studying bulls and I guess from habit I would be out back walking through the cows, I eventually learned to study bulls with everyone else as it was explained to me that in the beef industry you sell pounds unlike the dairy.

In the dairy I was use to the sorriest looking bulls from a fat or well muscled perspective, but I paid no serious attention to their looks it was all about the cows.
I chose to build on a female base on my maternal side because my cows actually have a legitimate job year round and any faults are magnified, my bulls on the other hand only have 2 months of work and I really question our ability to interpret what a masculine bull looks like if masculine bulls make feminine cows, simply due to the fact that my dairy cows were very feminine in appearance to me and the dairy bulls would be sub masculine for their lack of muscle and fat by the more prevalent and accepted industry standard.
I realize its apples and oranges to some degree but I do have to question what “high testosterone” looks like as this guy didn’t get to two million units of high quality semen on his good looks
flower



I greatly appreciate your post Craig which is so applicable to this summation. A dairy bull isn't a stud bull until he has daughters in production, whereas commercial maternal beef bulls are long gone before much is known about their daughters. Since the milkiest dairy cows and the beefiest beef cows are the same species representative of "fire and ice" and form follows functional selection, the stinging reality is that optimum must be a degree of balanced compromises somewhere in between, not necessarily the highest producers but the ones that cause us the least problems for longevity.....and of course be able to swing their hips to attract the bulls. Smile
Incidently Hilly, I couldn't help but notice Toystory'a uncanny resemblance to Francis of Wye born in 1958, a bull nicknamed Abe Lincoln who "marked the big turning point in the Wye breeding program" (taken from The Breed of Noble Bloods, page 70). I'm thinkin and smilin here how Dennis said all a maternal bull needed was 4 sound feet, a tool and a nose.....but surely he must also be the genetic equivalent of the preferred cows.

Wow, I'm gettin` worn out tryin` to squeeze a hundred pages and 50 years into one page that's gettin longer and longer. So, last but not the least, I want to reiterate what Gavin ended his last newsletter with:
".......Tomorrow brings the ability to select single characteristic with greater accuracy, and I fear that breeders will wildly rush for one character after another with disastrous affect on phenotype. If these affects could become as bad as I suspect they could then they could be very difficult to correct. Breed societies were set up in the beginning whose total job to insure the purity of the breed. ........ I must say that I am concerned for the future but then old men always are.

What Gavin may not be aware of is that his fears have already been in place here on this side of the world for the last 30 plus years and they are getting progressively worse with more technology. Pedigreed purity is useless without functional purity. Whether I prefer Gavin's cattle or not, I sure as hell like Gavin and all of you people on KC.....even those above or below average...... eventually we'll all be on the same level.. Smile

Harnessing hybrid power continues to lie in wait, waiting for some understanding husbandrymen to bring order out of the chaos. Opportunity is knocking at the door that opens to a long endless road filled with obstacles but under the guiding light of the Tru-Line topic, Keeneys Corner is a good meeting place to start the journey.

And to MVCatt, I hope this summation will make your tractor seat time more tolerable for the rest of this season......it was nice to meet you at the "gathering". Anyone who has absorbed this summation need not go back and read the first 100 pages, this is the crux of it all, I am finsihed with trying to justify the need for what is known in the professional breeding world as establishing genetic truths - the "fixing of physiological functional characters". It is not recommended as a direction for con artists, marketeers with their overblown promotional rhetoric, or multipliers with high expectations.

If by now anyone is not convinced that the BEEF industry NEEDS more prepotent maternal and paternal strains where the only proof is in the puddin`, may God have mercy upon your soul. Smile Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
LL in the vicinity of Eden busy fertilizing my garden with all the crap Humpty Dumpty left behind.
cheers


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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:40 pm

Wonderful synopsis Mr. Leonhardt. It has indeed all been said, covered from the rooter to the tooter, and never smelled or tasted more delicious. Thank you for the savory meal for the conceptual senses.



Bootheel
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:47 am

Larry,
Hay season ended for me last week...but I think you've given us enough to chew on here to last through winter feeding and possible snow plowing. Thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:18 pm

We all owe you a great deal Larry for the time and patience you have spent writing these last posts, on the previous 100 pages and over all these years. There is so much depth to your posts I find myself reading and re-reading them trying to glean as much as possible from them.

I had to chuckle when I saw your chart and the story with it
Larry Leonhardt wrote:

Enjoying my fascination with colors doing this similarly to the way I prepared the TruLine booklet - while neglecting my other essential duties - it turned out that the sacrificial time I spent in preparing this "chart" was all in vain. It was completely dismissed by everyone I sent it to. Perhaps the intended purpose was not recognized since it is a little confusing.
Is the problem of acceptance just as simple as the saying "it's easier to tell a simple lie than explain a complex truth"?
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:09 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
We all owe you a great deal Larry for the time and patience you have spent writing these last posts, on the previous 100 pages and over all these years. There is so much depth to your posts I find myself reading and re-reading them trying to glean as much as possible from them.

I had to chuckle when I saw your chart and the story with it
Larry Leonhardt wrote:

Enjoying my fascination with colors doing this similarly to the way I prepared the TruLine booklet - while neglecting my other essential duties - it turned out that the sacrificial time I spent in preparing this "chart" was all in vain. It was completely dismissed by everyone I sent it to. Perhaps the intended purpose was not recognized since it is a little confusing.
Is the problem of acceptance just as simple as the saying "it's easier to tell a simple lie than explain a complex truth"?
things are a little slow at KC ; I`ve been pre-occupied with this presentation in Rapid {pales, pales, pales in comparison to the above},and getting Sale postcards mailed; need to get Bob`s pics up, and "pure Michigan" pics and commentary...maybe tomorrow...but, when the site gets a little slow, come here and study...as I used to read Tru-line over and over...there`s enough reading above to last a man a lifetime, for it took a lifetime to create the experience behind the writing...
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:00 pm

Well mike Briann and i were asking ourselves the same quesstion today as he was going tho the foot Dr. We both concluded that It was hard to dicuss all that much when everyone generaly saw things in the same light. i did offer to save him some money and operate on his foot for free. after all that is what i do is fix things. affraid affraid Then there is the ACS crew they have kept Eddie and larkota and W.T pretty entertained. I am not sure i would want to play poker with Eddie. But if he would come to nevada we could get him to do a stand up act at a casino. lol! lol! I doubt anyone would want there money back. For fun maybe we could pick on Luke jocolor But then he would make us feel stupid the way he did to that VEGAN. Grassy could have us all entertained if he would have just kept the flag going for a while longer. But then jack aint small. affraid I think Tom and joe need to rev up the live show and this time maybe everyone can have a little more fun with it. Then Dennis could make some more of those priceless drawing's. I can see one right now. some one on ACS looking in a heifer for calving ease cheers cheers Or maybe i could have a interview with a famous seedstock producer Twisted Evil Twisted Evil And Dylan could be the moderator. I get all theese thoughts then i ask myself is the world ready lol! lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:26 pm

W.T wrote:
Well mike Briann and i were asking ourselves the same quesstion today as he was going tho the foot Dr. We both concluded that It was hard to dicuss all that much when everyone generaly saw things in the same light. i did offer to save him some money and operate on his foot for free. after all that is what i do is fix things. affraid affraid Then there is the ACS crew they have kept Eddie and larkota and W.T pretty entertained. I am not sure i would want to play poker with Eddie. But if he would come to nevada we could get him to do a stand up act at a casino. lol! lol! I doubt anyone would want there money back. For fun maybe we could pick on Luke jocolor But then he would make us feel stupid the way he did to that VEGAN. Grassy could have us all entertained if he would have just kept the flag going for a while longer. But then jack aint small. affraid I think Tom and joe need to rev up the live show and this time maybe everyone can have a little more fun with it. Then Dennis could make some more of those priceless drawing's. I can see one right now. some one on ACS looking in a heifer for calving ease cheers cheers Or maybe i could have a interview with a famous seedstock producer Twisted Evil Twisted Evil And Dylan could be the moderator. I get all theese thoughts then i ask myself is the world ready lol! lol!

We've got to keep this linked to Larry (kind of a linebred thread deal refering back to Larry multiple times) so, W. T, you would not fine me entertaining. I'm as dull as a rock in one of Larry's beet fields. No need for me to come out there and gamblne at a game of chance since I can stay home and farm against the odds here. Do ya'll play poker out there with a knife, shotgun or rifle?

Eddie, dull as a rock and wondering about folks who are wondering about calving ease bulls and why W. T doesn't saddle up a horse and ride 60 miles a day to see each of his cows on a daily basis to be a good guy.
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:55 am

Quote :
Over the years the biggest thing I got from LL is do my own thing and follow my own path
.


well now, one need not waste much of Larry`s time to do this eh? breed your own cattle , yes,... but apply genetic principles that create a predictability establishing an identity of type that allows you to put your own name on your cattle, and not have to depend on a paper to distinguish the difference between not only your own cattle, but everyone elses as well...

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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:03 am

two of the most conclusive quotes I`ve read at Advantage...

I just met Larry in August and to be honest...I'm glad it wasn't sooner...because I wasn't ready.

Has anyone seen this bull? Comments?"

Foxx, comments above lead me to believe that maybe you listened to Larry...but you didn't hear Larry.

the industry response to LL explained in one sentence...masterful Chris... cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:35 am

MKeeney wrote:
two of the most conclusive quotes I`ve read at Advantage...

I just met Larry in August and to be honest...I'm glad it wasn't sooner...because I wasn't ready.

Has anyone seen this bull? Comments?"

Foxx, comments above lead me to believe that maybe you listened to Larry...but you didn't hear Larry.

the industry response to LL explained in one sentence...masterful Chris... cheers



You know the day destroys the night
Night divides the day
Tried to run
Tried to hide
Break on through to the other side
Break on through to the other side
Break on through to the other side, yeah

We chased our pleasures here
Dug our treasures there
But can you still recall
The time we cried
Break on through to the other side
Break on through to the other side



That reminds me of one high school summer spent hanging drywall with Druggie Todd. I was a typical teenage poser and would bring my boombox to work and listen to cassettes reflecting whatever particular phase I was going through at the moment. One day, when I played The Doors, Druggie Todd told me "You can LISTEN to Jim Morrison, but you can't HEAR Jim Morrison".


TD, broke on through and hearing voices
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:03 pm

Attempting to post while traveling back to the cattle breeding world. ..just wanting to welcome Mandee Leonhardt to the group...just got a little pedigree and background info from your Dad...please reflect and project as you desire, nice visiting with your grandma and Michael with an update on the Shoshone families!
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:59 am

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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   

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Reflections from LL ©
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