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 Reflections from LL ©

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Will



Posts : 220
Join date : 2012-04-17

PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sat May 05, 2012 6:50 pm

Great post Grassfarmer! Apple butted is hard not soft though. I'll be movin on and everyone can get back to doin what they were doing. MK asked me to stir the pot and I sure did. Was fun. Heck I don't need this anymore! Have a good one MK. Sorry not even remotely interested in Tru-Line. Grassfarmer are you French Canadian? Grassfarmer you also tryin to drag DV into this too. I like DV. Use to get his catolog when he had a bull sale. Really well put together catolog and program. Funny D Biggs can see soft.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sat May 05, 2012 7:05 pm

stirring the pot is one thing; but adding soft sides and apple butts ain`t my kind of chili...but a great excersize in seeing how much BS a Tru-line effort would have to overcome to be prominent...thankfully, it doesn`t have to be prominent, just more useful
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sat May 05, 2012 7:11 pm

LCP you are getting what Larry has stated all along give true parent lines to the commercial cattleman and let him decide what to do with them.

On the note of bullshit about softsided cattle no human eye could see what grade an animal would be with his hide on. What it looks to me that they are looking at is high priced feed, which is a sign of more money than sense. Bob H
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sat May 05, 2012 9:38 pm

LCP wrote:
Will wrote:
Bob H, hope the rodeo went well. Have several young ranchers in the system. Calves top the market and cows really good. Five Rivers feedlot want hybrids and Power Genetics only want Sim-Angus. Our customers are very well positioned. Not concerned in the least. Been doing it for 28 years. What about the bull raisers that do not help their customers capitalize on heterosis mainly maternal heterosis. Crossbred cow is worth 25% more in her life time. How can anyone leave that on the table, especially with an in-bred? Does running on BLM land help you return a better profit?

I'm going to take a stab at this to see how much I grasp of the Tru-Line concept, so if I get something wrong please someone correct me.

Will, I am coming at this from a commercial man's perspective. Five Rivers and Power Genetics want hybrids...well, I want to be the one making the hybrid to sell to them. If I am buying the hybrid from my seedstock supplier, I am losing out on some of the heterosis, am I not? It is widely accepted that maximum heterosis occurs in the F1, so as a commercial producer, would I not want to make the F1 myself? I would be interested to know if feedlots are more interested in buying F-1's or F-later's. I have a hunch the F-1's would be their preference.

The crossbred cow being worth 25% more in her life...compared to what? The "average" straight bred cow, we assume. The premise behind creating pure lines of maternal genetics is to create superior straight bred cows to maximize the heterosis when creating the F1 while maintaining superior maternal function. I speculate that superior, linebred maternal genetics rival the value of the average crossbred cow in terms of longevity (which is where the added value comes from, correct?), yet still allow for maximum heterosis and consistency in her offspring. Even a superior crossbred cow, although highly functional as a female, gives up some of the potential heterosis and consistency in her progeny as a result of her own hybridization (maybe not heterosis in a 3 way terminal cross though?) Most commercial producers, myself included, have gravitated toward crossbred females because of the abundance of average to below-average maternal genetics in the mainstream. Crossing them seemed to be the easiest way to get a better female. The problem is the inconsistency in creating that crossbred cow, and the resulting inconsistency in the offspring. Without pure parent lines, there can be no consistency.

To be clear, this is not from my experience, rather what I have read on this site from other's experiences. This was just an essay question in my self-prescribed homework assignment. I've been on this site about as long as you have Will, and as you know I have a bunch of Balancer bulls, so this is still in theory for me. I'm just trying to understand it better to see how I can make better cows and make better feeder calves with greater efficiency.

you not stabbing in the dark Luke...about all you can do to make a better cow quickly from the by-products of terminal selection dominant in most all breeds, is to cross them... and even then, heterosis doesn`t improve the qualitative traits...
I crossed gentle Angus and gentle Gelbvieh, and the crosses were crazy...bye, bye to those...
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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun May 06, 2012 12:14 am

Grassfarmer wrote:
Thanks Dylan, sadly there is still no explanation of what soft sided is. We could post bull pictures all day and say they were "soft sided" or "not soft sided" but until there is a definition of the condition and hopefully some indication of it's economic benefit we would be wasting time. And now there is apparently another condition called a "soft apple butted bull" ....... you must be kidding or do you just make this stuff up as you go along? In an effort to enlighten myself I googled a picture of the bull called Retail Product and came up with this:

http://www.bovine-elite.com/angusblk/GarRetailProduct_lg.jpg

And you say he looks like a Gelbvieh scratch scratch it's even in the name - "yellow cattle". If you want to check out what more Gelbvieh look like here is a breeders website with pictures.
http://highfieldgelbviehs1909.blogspot.ca/

In the vicinity of wondering whether it takes a "soft apple butted bull" or a "soft sided bull" to march to the top of DV's Horse Butte and march back down again. Or indeed whether Dennis's Butte is higher than the pile of BS Will has spouted since coming to KC.


Edit: And it gets worse - the bull had a "pair of pants you could die for" - who are you Carson off Queer Eye For The Straight Guy?

GF, a very subjective descriptor, no doubt. But the more subjective the better when trying to emulate a "Master Marketer". I am still not sure which part of the side Will was referring to. Hip, flank, ribs, lats, traps, forearm, or some or all. He did say loose hided. But not to loose, but I assume he is against tight hided cattle with defined muscle expression. But like Mike says that depends a lot on season, hair coat, bcs etc, and is very subjective.

Will have you left the kitchen? To hot? I was looking forward to turning the heat up some more, we were still on low. If your intent was solely to stir the pot then it explains the absence of literate logic in your responses. I am sure when you choose to be sincere your comprehension skills are much better. Hope you had fun, come back and stir any time you like, do yourself a favor though and bring a sharper spoon. Smile
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun May 06, 2012 8:34 am

MKeeney wrote:

you not stabbing in the dark Luke...about all you can do to make a better cow quickly from the by-products of terminal selection dominant in most all breeds, is to cross them... and even then, heterosis doesn`t improve the qualitative traits... I crossed gentle Angus and gentle Gelbvieh, and the crosses were crazy...bye, bye to those...


You crossed AN and GV and got some crazy calves. Your experience mirrors others who have said the F1 calves often have a poorer disposition than the PB parents. Those people have felt the dispostion got better in later crosses. Is it due to culling the ones that were crazy or is there something about the F1 we don't know compared to the disposition of later crosses?

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun May 06, 2012 9:18 am

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:

you not stabbing in the dark Luke...about all you can do to make a better cow quickly from the by-products of terminal selection dominant in most all breeds, is to cross them... and even then, heterosis doesn`t improve the qualitative traits... I crossed gentle Angus and gentle Gelbvieh, and the crosses were crazy...bye, bye to those...


You crossed AN and GV and got some crazy calves. Your experience mirrors others who have said the F1 calves often have a poorer disposition than the PB parents. Those people have felt the dispostion got better in later crosses. Is it due to culling the ones that were crazy or is there something about the F1 we don't know compared to the disposition of later crosses?

not some; all crazy...by several different bulls; plus birthweights pushed the doable limits...I`m sure Gelbvieh are better now in all regards, but I decided I didn`t have enough time to cure all the problems Gelbvieh was creating...
what do you mean later crosses? f2...f3...I gotta go through fire to find ice...is that where Will gets "fire" and " ice"?
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun May 06, 2012 9:28 am

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:

you not stabbing in the dark Luke...about all you can do to make a better cow quickly from the by-products of terminal selection dominant in most all breeds, is to cross them... and even then, heterosis doesn`t improve the qualitative traits... I crossed gentle Angus and gentle Gelbvieh, and the crosses were crazy...bye, bye to those...


You crossed AN and GV and got some crazy calves. Your experience mirrors others who have said the F1 calves often have a poorer disposition than the PB parents. Those people have felt the dispostion got better in later crosses. Is it due to culling the ones that were crazy or is there something about the F1 we don't know compared to the disposition of later crosses?

not some; all crazy...by several different bulls; plus birthweights pushed the doable limits...I`m sure Gelbvieh are better now in all regards, but I decided I didn`t have enough time to cure all the problems Gelbvieh was creating...
what do you mean later crosses? f2...f3...I gotta go through fire to find ice...is that where Will gets "fire" and " ice"?

I don't think there has been much research on disposition so I don't know that it always happens in F1 but anecdotal information says there is a difference in the F1 vs later crosses. I don't know if that means mating the F1 to and F1 is better or if mating the F1 back to a parent breed in a backcross is better. The information shared with the group I was with felt the later crosses were much better than the F1.

I don't think it always happens otherwise I think lots of commercial cattlemen would not crossbreed just to avoid the disposition. I do think it happens enough to get some researchers attention.

I think Will's fire and ice deals with using SM that are like traditional SM and AN like traditional AN. From what I gather, he prefers his SM to be pretty much like AN but with more muscle. It appears he feels using similar biological types to make the F1 creates more uniform progeny of the F1 than if his parents to make the F1 were more divergent in type.
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun May 06, 2012 11:02 am

Looking back, the crossbred calves were a nightmare. At the time I thought it was just how cattle acted.

As the cattle here have been tightened up, they are easier to work with than when we were dependant on others.
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun May 06, 2012 11:21 am

Mike I do not agree with your statement about fixing a crossbred or breed cow, I think that all you have to do is use a trueline bull on her and start down the path of less variation in 3 generations you can fix a set of cows with the first corsses not being junk.

It would be faster to throw them away and buy trueline females but maybe not a profitable or learning. The other thing you will gain is pure heterosis in the first cross hybred terminal cattle.

The thing that caution about doing this is you will be 9 years away from selling heifers to the seedstock market that are realy predictable, If you do sell them you may not help your reputation.

Breeding cattle is a lifetime, one out cross can set you back 10 years that is why we have no interest in changing, we feel that good is good enough.

Bob
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun May 06, 2012 11:29 am

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:

you not stabbing in the dark Luke...about all you can do to make a better cow quickly from the by-products of terminal selection dominant in most all breeds, is to cross them... and even then, heterosis doesn`t improve the qualitative traits... I crossed gentle Angus and gentle Gelbvieh, and the crosses were crazy...bye, bye to those...


You crossed AN and GV and got some crazy calves. Your experience mirrors others who have said the F1 calves often have a poorer disposition than the PB parents. Those people have felt the dispostion got better in later crosses. Is it due to culling the ones that were crazy or is there something about the F1 we don't know compared to the disposition of later crosses?

not some; all crazy...by several different bulls; plus birthweights pushed the doable limits...I`m sure Gelbvieh are better now in all regards, but I decided I didn`t have enough time to cure all the problems Gelbvieh was creating...
what do you mean later crosses? f2...f3...I gotta go through fire to find ice...is that where Will gets "fire" and " ice"?

I don't think there has been much research on disposition so I don't know that it always happens in F1 but anecdotal information says there is a difference in the F1 vs later crosses. I don't know if that means mating the F1 to and F1 is better or if mating the F1 back to a parent breed in a backcross is better. The information shared with the group I was with felt the later crosses were much better than the F1.

I don't think it always happens otherwise I think lots of commercial cattlemen would not crossbreed just to avoid the disposition. I do think it happens enough to get some researchers attention.

I think Will's fire and ice deals with using SM that are like traditional SM and AN like traditional AN. From what I gather, he prefers his SM to be pretty much like AN but with more muscle. It appears he feels using similar biological types to make the F1 creates more uniform progeny of the F1 than if his parents to make the F1 were more divergent in type.
i know Will thinks that, but it doesn`t work that way Smile ...
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun May 06, 2012 11:32 am

Kent Powell wrote:
Looking back, the crossbred calves were a nightmare. At the time I thought it was just how cattle acted.

As the cattle here have been tightened up, they are easier to work with than when we were dependant on others.
there`s a good Simmy steer running out in the back lot that is a great example of more from less in weight..unfortunately, also more from less in temperament
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun May 06, 2012 11:51 am

Bob H wrote:
Mike I do not agree with your statement about fixing a crossbred or breed cow, I think that all you have to do is use a trueline bull on her and start down the path of less variation in 3 generations you can fix a set of cows with the first corsses not being junk.

It would be faster to throw them away and buy trueline females but maybe not a profitable or learning. The other thing you will gain is pure heterosis in the first cross hybred terminal cattle.

The thing that caution about doing this is you will be 9 years away from selling heifers to the seedstock market that are realy predictable, If you do sell them you may not help your reputation.

Breeding cattle is a lifetime, one out cross can set you back 10 years that is why we have no interest in changing, we feel that good is good enough.

Bob

we`re not on the same page Bob...I`m not attempting to " fix " any crosses...I think in two generations of the right "fixed maternal" bulls you can be pretty well on your way...they wouldn`t have to be Shoshone; in fact, they would not have to be the same breed...
this crossbred cow below and her like bred mates are the most functional and productive cows as a genetic population ever on this place; bar none..

heterosis contributing to their improved reproductive function and adaptability, and the quality and "maternal type to maternal type" contributing to fault free convenience traits...
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun May 06, 2012 1:00 pm

I hope you casterated that crossbred CH calf!
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun May 06, 2012 3:29 pm

What genration is she and what generation is that calf? In my observation is that she is an f1 what is the father to the calf?
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun May 06, 2012 3:42 pm

One more observation from the photo she is realy milky on realy good feed.
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun May 06, 2012 4:58 pm

The HYBRID has nuts!!!!! Small but they appear to be nuts! Sorry I JUST could not help myself. AMEN BROTHER MK. You finally got it. The jokes on everyone but me. Only problem now is MK thinks he is the only one that can do it. Hell he can not even make a Sim-Angus out of his purebred Angus with max heterosis. Plus ALL his Gelbvieh Angus were wild. Funny he had some in his sale last year if I remember right.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun May 06, 2012 7:51 pm

Bob H wrote:
What genration is she and what generation is that calf? In my observation is that she is an f1 what is the father to the calf?
the cow a half..calf 3/4...the calf is insignificant other than the grading up process...guess what; this is confounding...my 1/2`s very gentle enough; put one more hoodoo on them for 3/4...crazy...good, big calves, crazy Evil or Very Mad
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun May 06, 2012 7:59 pm

Bob H wrote:
One more observation from the photo she is realy milky on realy good feed.
Bob,
she`s just right on milk, and on the sorriest feed I have...the char x encore were the best cows to stay in shape on the sorriest feed I`ve had; muscle more important than "soft-sided" for keeping ability... I`ve yet to see a purebred Simmental cow that pleases me for my environment; and when I see Will`s bulls, it`s easy to see they would make cows just about like the kind that makes me puke...
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun May 06, 2012 8:12 pm

Will wrote:
The HYBRID has nuts!!!!! Small but they appear to be nuts! Sorry I JUST could not help myself. AMEN BROTHER MK. You finally got it. The jokes on everyone but me. Only problem now is MK thinks he is the only one that can do it. Hell he can not even make a Sim-Angus out of his purebred Angus with max heterosis. Plus ALL his Gelbvieh Angus were wild. Funny he had some in his sale last year if I remember right.
anybody can crossbreed and look fairly smart...few can make the pieces to crossbreed...those were 1/4 Gelbvieh...maybe df has a point; those particular f2`s were gentle
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun May 06, 2012 9:23 pm

Mike
I think you have made my point more than any other. That cow is a true f1 cross and I agree that they are more efficient than the parent stock. The problem lies in where to go from there. We did not have much luck after the f1 cross, we did not have them replicate themselves with a very high percentage, it appeared to be about 12.5% made cows with any age upon them. The math went somewhat like this 50% of the heifer calves were either too big or too coarse or undesirable for females. So if you had 100 you were now down to 50 to breed. When you put the bulls in you would only get 80% bred thus leaving you 40 pregnant heifers which up to 10 would not mother, milk or have a live calf. Now you are down to 30, of them 20% would not breed back as 3 year olds. Now you are at 24 bred 3 year olds or 24% of the beginning heifer crop from 2 years ago. Then you had normal (what the industry accepts) pregs for the next 6 years or 92 % which if you are lucky left you with 12 10 year old cows. If you are on a 30 to 50 dollar per head net profit margin and the cost difference between cull cows and replacement cattle is 300 to 400 dollars on 100 cows for every percentage point you lose one of those cows you dip into your net margin about 4 dollars per head. When you lose 10 percentage points you have lost all of your net profit. These numbers are a little rough but should explain the point better.
Bob
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun May 06, 2012 9:43 pm

Bob H wrote:
Mike
I think you have made my point more than any other. That cow is a true f1 cross and I agree that they are more efficient than the parent stock. The problem lies in where to go from there. We did not have much luck after the f1 cross, we did not have them replicate themselves with a very high percentage, it appeared to be about 12.5% made cows with any age upon them. The math went somewhat like this 50% of the heifer calves were either too big or too coarse or undesirable for females. So if you had 100 you were now down to 50 to breed. When you put the bulls in you would only get 80% bred thus leaving you 40 pregnant heifers which up to 10 would not mother, milk or have a live calf. Now you are down to 30, of them 20% would not breed back as 3 year olds. Now you are at 24 bred 3 year olds or 24% of the beginning heifer crop from 2 years ago. Then you had normal (what the industry accepts) pregs for the next 6 years or 92 % which if you are lucky left you with 12 10 year old cows. If you are on a 30 to 50 dollar per head net profit margin and the cost difference between cull cows and replacement cattle is 300 to 400 dollars on 100 cows for every percentage point you lose one of those cows you dip into your net margin about 4 dollars per head. When you lose 10 percentage points you have lost all of your net profit. These numbers are a little rough but should explain the point better.
Bob

The problem lies in where to go from there.

not a problem so long as the tru-line type breeders are breeding the pieces that fit to make that cow...we go right back to where the parent stock came from...wonder what her calf would be like if sired by the Limmy line Jeff Mundorf is breeding.?..or a "purebred" Simmy?...or a growth or marbling or ribeye "Angus" {best determined by sire summaries and EPDS}...all the bases can be covered according to demand and environment when breeders are making pieces...when they start making the "whole enchilada" as Will is attempting...well, if the grain truck is full of cheap feed, you make more from more...if feed is high, you lose more from having more...no flexibility in Will`s or anyone elses "do it all" cattle...
it takes a system, not temporary superior "do it all individuals" to produce more from less...and more from less is always more economically sound in any given market atmosphere...
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun May 06, 2012 9:59 pm

On the next point is we have found that by using tueline parent stock our percentages went above the industry average to about 96% pregnant cows so on the same formula it is a 16 net more dollars. The heifers we can breed about 85% instead of 50. The concieve at about 90% if we use wagyu bulls we have 95% calf crop with between 92 at worst breed back on the 3 year olds to 96% . These numbers make us allot more sustainable and by the way the only pounds that we lost in our program was on black heifers which if we would sell it would be by the head not by the pound. These are our findings not to tell anyone how to run their outfit just to help not make the same mistakes. About running other peoples outfits ,People always ask when I bid on their calves if I would take that for them and I say if I have to raise your kids then I get to say when to pull the trigger, but as long as I don't then you make the decision.

Bob H
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun May 06, 2012 10:25 pm

Bob H wrote:
That cow is a true f1 cross and I agree that they are more efficient than the parent stock. The problem lies in where to go from there.

That's easy is it not Bob? the offspring of the F1s are terminal. If you aren't trying to make future generations of parent stock from them presumably there won't be a problem?
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun May 06, 2012 11:08 pm

Bob H wrote:
On the next point is we have found that by using tueline parent stock our percentages went above the industry average to about 96% pregnant cows so on the same formula it is a 16 net more dollars. The heifers we can breed about 85% instead of 50. The concieve at about 90% if we use wagyu bulls we have 95% calf crop with between 92 at worst breed back on the 3 year olds to 96% . These numbers make us allot more sustainable and by the way the only pounds that we lost in our program was on black heifers which if we would sell it would be by the head not by the pound. These are our findings not to tell anyone how to run their outfit just to help not make the same mistakes. About running other peoples outfits ,People always ask when I bid on their calves if I would take that for them and I say if I have to raise your kids then I get to say when to pull the trigger, but as long as I don't then you make the decision.

Bob H

Echo some of your statement bob the more i have line bred the better the fertility.
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