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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:05 pm

at least I can describe...well, they describe, what a Tru-line effort would not be...

http://alliedgeneticresources.com/index.php

more of the SOS...
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R V



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:08 pm

MKeeney wrote:
as they say on Family Feud {does that name apply somewhat here ? Smile }, good answer Exclamation

no, there`s no glaring defect with 903, and I guarantee she`s a better cow than most that little jimmer is keeping and buying...it`s just the con game marketing mis-nomers that we`re calling attention to; and it`s the great culling principles of the farao `s that little jimmer is trying to promote as to making their cattle and process so superior...and it`s all a con...
and another thing I`m pointing out is how buyers will deal with con`s and buy a lessor genetic cow than is readily available other places, just because she has "papers"...until you put genes ahead of papers, your registered response rings of rustling, not of the genes, but the reputation of someone else...not alone, the registered business is built on that exact premise...just read a Tom Burke footnote for further proof...

I know that I am the oddball here because for some reason I still want the option to register my cattle. It doesn't change my focus. In regards to the arrangement of genes, we are in different stages. As per Dr. Jan Bonsma "The first step in successful livestock production is to get adaptability. That gives you liveability. If you have liveability and adaptability, then can increase your number of livestock and then select for ...." I am still at the stage of selecting for the genes of adaptability and liveability and am still learning what they live and look like. Some breeders are getting enough numbers to increase selection pressure. Larry's selection pressure has "gone over the top" and is now uniform enough that it is a numbers game and a gate cut. Hopefully, I will eventually make it to that level. I don't think that I have ever been close to being a genetic rustler, but I don't mind the challenges to make sure that is true. By the way, the Family Feud comparison is great!


Last edited by R V on Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:13 am; edited 2 times in total
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jonken



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:59 pm

R V wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
as they say on Family Feud {does that name apply somewhat here ? Smile }, good answer Exclamation

no, there`s no glaring defect with 903, and I guarantee she`s a better cow than most that little jimmer is keeping and buying...it`s just the con game marketing mis-nomers that we`re calling attention to; and it`s the great culling principles of the farao `s that little jimmer is trying to promote as to making their cattle and process so superior...and it`s all a con...
and another thing I`m pointing out is how buyers will deal with con`s and buy a lessor genetic cow than is readily available other places, just because she has "papers"...until you put genes ahead of papers, your registered response rings of rustling, not of the genes, but the reputation of someone else...not alone, the registered business is built on that exact premise...just read a Tom Burke footnote for further proof...

I know that I am the oddball here because for some reason I still want the option to register my cattle. It doesn't change my focus on improvement and doing the best that I can with what I have available. This is just an analogy, but registration papers and alcohol may be more similar than most think. Both have good and bad qualities and both can do some good, but can be dangerous and individuals have different levels of risk with use. Twisted Evil We are just teetotalers in different spectrums. Exclamation

In regards to the arrangement of genes, we are in different stages. As per Dr. Jan Bonsma "The first step in successful livestock production is to get adaptability. That gives you liveability. If you have liveability and adaptability, then can increase your number of livestock and then select for ...." I am still at the stage of selecting for the genes of adaptability and liveability and am still learning what they live and look like. Some breeders are getting enough numbers to increase selection pressure. Larry's selection pressure has "gone over the top" and is now uniform enough that it is a numbers game and a gate cut. Hopefully, I will eventually make it to that level.

I don't think that I have ever been close to being a genetic rustler, but I don't mind the challenges to make sure that is true. By the way, the Family Feud comparison is great!

RV , reread one of my favorite quotes from a North American TRU-LINER and maybe you will realize all your justifications and analogies are meaningless .

"once I get to redundancy of individuals in my cows I may start to study them more "


Thanks again Hilly . Jon
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Larry Leonhardt



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:30 am

Dennis Voss wrote:


The literal image of the complex abstractions involved in correlating primary colors evolving into secondary colors as it pertains to breeding cattle by utilizing the symbolism of colors, for Bootheel/LL.

DV in the vicinity of giving further guidance as time permits

Thanks Dennis, she may not be the sexiest cow in the entire world, but she is certainly the most colorful.....with the flexiibility to produce any color calf we might prefer. While registered cattle breeders are extremely RACIST, she "should not be judged by the color of her skin, but for her character" (s). Smile

Regardless of race, below is a portrait of the SEXIEST cow in the entire world.....WOW, what gorgeous extended shapely rear legs, those glamourous eyes, slender shoulders and elegant arms to say nothing about her exquisite volumeous bosom, and oh my goodness.....whatta BEAUTIFUL tail......all the parts put together JUST RIGHT to make any bull wanna stray from his own pasture.



But we can't just live off love alone, man's gotta eat and so do cows. The motivating force behind the TruLine concept was not to achieve great monetary rewards producing a few wondrous cattle, it was my concern that the reactionary registered industries were not producing the right cattle for future needs. The future is here and the demand for more consistency and more efficient functional cows has never been greater. To devise ways of producing a better more profitable hybrid, "the principles are exceedingly simple, the difficulty is in the application."



With ample justification, registered breeders have become great skeptics, insisting on proof with public pedigree verified by DNA analysis and expensive piles of guesstimated records for legitimacy. Mark claims this group of unsorted freshly weaned heifers were sired by two or three ordinary KA bulls. As a skeptic, I would suspect that Mark has access to a hidden lab somewhere and that in fact these are ACTUALLY CLONED HEIFERS ....and that genome testing could not disprove it to be otherwise. Very Happy

LL, near the facility of cloning functional cattle, where this inexpensive innovative system is secured and protected of proprietary confidential information, raised and processed ONLY for affordable commercial beef production ...BE WARY OF IMITATIONS Very Happy
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AlaBill



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:40 am

Quote :
With ample justification, registered breeders have become great skeptics, insisting on proof with public pedigree verified by DNA analysis and expensive piles of guesstimated records for legitimacy. Mark claims this group of unsorted freshly weaned heifers were sired by two or three ordinary KA bulls. As a skeptic, I would suspect that Mark has access to a hidden lab somewhere and that in fact these are ACTUALLY CLONED HEIFERS ....and that genome testing could not disprove it to be otherwise.

As I see it, any legitimacy of EPD's at all rely on just this single point, "Guesstimated records."

So this whole house of cards is reliant on every single producer recording every single item correctly, every time?

What are the odds of that happening?



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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:24 pm

the greatest compliment genius can achieve...
from an email I recieved in regards to LL Reflections...

It is a little embarassing that I had not thought of some of these things earlier, since they are pretty logical.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:14 pm

AlaBill wrote:
Quote :
With ample justification, registered breeders have become great skeptics, insisting on proof with public pedigree verified by DNA analysis and expensive piles of guesstimated records for legitimacy. Mark claims this group of unsorted freshly weaned heifers were sired by two or three ordinary KA bulls. As a skeptic, I would suspect that Mark has access to a hidden lab somewhere and that in fact these are ACTUALLY CLONED HEIFERS ....and that genome testing could not disprove it to be otherwise.

As I see it, any legitimacy of EPD's at all rely on just this single point, "Guesstimated records."

So this whole house of cards is reliant on every single producer recording every single item correctly, every time?

What are the odds of that happening?




Every record does not have to be right every time, although it would be nice.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:27 pm

df wrote:
AlaBill wrote:
Quote :
With ample justification, registered breeders have become great skeptics, insisting on proof with public pedigree verified by DNA analysis and expensive piles of guesstimated records for legitimacy. Mark claims this group of unsorted freshly weaned heifers were sired by two or three ordinary KA bulls. As a skeptic, I would suspect that Mark has access to a hidden lab somewhere and that in fact these are ACTUALLY CLONED HEIFERS ....and that genome testing could not disprove it to be otherwise.

As I see it, any legitimacy of EPD's at all rely on just this single point, "Guesstimated records."

So this whole house of cards is reliant on every single producer recording every single item correctly, every time?

What are the odds of that happening?




Every record does not have to be right every time, although it would be nice.
that`s true because EPD`s are so insignificant in determining profitability, especially maternally speaking...
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Larry Leonhardt



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:30 pm

Like cloning, redundancy can become somewhat boring preachin' the same ole sermon over and over again...... to keep Reflections by LL relatively active, I often haf 'ta borrow from other KC topics, for instance Larkota wrote:

"started calving, will be back in a week going fishing" )

.......I'm guess'n Brian must've read this tidbit on the internet :

A guy is 72 years old and loves to fish.
He was sitting in his boat the other day when he heard a voice say,
'Pick me up.'

He looked around,
couldn't see anyone.
He thought he was dreaming when he heard the voice say again,
‘Pick me up.'
He looked in the water, floating on the top,
was a frog.

The man said,
'Are you talking to me?'
The frog said,
'Yes, I'm talking to you.’
Pick me up then, kiss me and I'll turn into the most beautiful woman you have ever seen.
I'll make sure that all your friends are envious and jealous because
I will be your bride!'

The man looked at the frog for a short time, reached over, picked it up carefully, then placed it in his front pocket.
The frog said,
'What, are you crazy?
Didn't you hear what I said?
I said kiss me and I will be your beautiful bride.'

He opened his pocket, looked at the frog and said,
'Nah, at my age I'd rather have a talking frog.'


With age comes wisdom.


Fishing.... I've never been much of a fisherman but I have been kissin' frogs with sticky tongues too many of my 77 years..... finally learning that any gal who'll make sure all your friends are envious and jealous would surely be a demanding bitch to live with.....well, maybe at least 9 times out'ta 10.
Whether it's from kissin' frogs offering great transformations or pushing envelopes with sticky flaps, I sure do enjoy readin' and rearrangin' Will's realism, taken from "a new guy on KC". While the highlights are of my doing, this is a summarized arrangement of Will's remarks:

"....... when I was a purebed Gelbvieh breeder a loonngg time ago. Had bred my commerical herd up to mostly Purebred Gelbvieh. Half bloods were great. Three quarter bloods had throw aways. Purebreds made me puke. Decide if I could not sell Gelbvieh Angus hybrid bulls I would go back to raising steers. No way was I interested in raising and selling purebred Gelbviehs bulls. No way was I going to ranch without maternal heterosis. I did it before the Gelbvieh Association started their balancer program. I did it by researching and studing how to do it. I consider myself a student and I have studied the best teachers I could find. I do not raise big cattle, my goal is to raise cattle that get to 1300 pounds quick and then mature, and yes they have ribeye, marbling, low backfat and are maternal. I have my own hybrid program and I could give a rip about anyone else's hybrid program. Most hybrid breeders do not have a clue what they are doing. They take their problem cows to make hybrids and still use the top cows to make purebreds. Thats BS. I make hybrids only! Explain a fixed line?....Goal is to raise the under limit cows up and have a very narrow low bell curve..... How do you find the best optimum cow if you do not push the envelope so to speak? Better is better for everything from fertility to keeping ability, to mothering ability to pounds weaned to longevity. Interested in average but at a higher average than the previos average. I want more output from my cows without raising the input and maternal heterosis is the main tool to get that accomplished.......I want both. More output without more input and more return for the calf. How do you know your limits if you do not "push it." Optimum at my ranch changes from year to year. Depends if it rains or not. Heterosis is just one tool in my tool box. What tools do you have in your toolbox?......MK, let's discuss your Simn-Angus program?..... I also believe in a system. I also believe for every action their is a reaction. Glad to be a two LL Will. Polemic- the art or practice of disputation. Straight from Webster. Gotta run, wish my neighbors thought I was playing. "

Wow Will, thanks for thoroughly explaining what you want, its not much different than what everyone wants. My first thought was that you oughta go fishin' with Brian pickin' up as many frogs as you can find along the way who need kissin', not just shoved in your own pocket Smile Or, perhaps you'd rather go play a few rounds of golf with MK who'll "show & tell" you which iron to use to hit a hole in one......but remember, he also said it took him about 25 years to get out of kindergarden before he learned how to color stayin' inside the lines without hurredly scribbling random colors all over the pages. Most of us remain impatient scribblers while DV is a natural born artist in his own right.....seems a little unfair, but leading by example, DV kindly offered to be "in the vicinity of giving further guidance as time permits" .....ya' know both DV and MK have reached the "golden age" Smile




"The literal image of the complex abstractions involved in correlating primary colors evolving into secondary colors as it pertains to breeding cattle by utilizing the symbolism of colors, for Bootheel/LL. "

LL in the vicinity of polemics thoroughly enjoy'n Will's statements ... hopin' and pray'n Will'll find 'n kiss a frog that can transform into many TruLiners to help him achieve his goals.....without puking cheers
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:59 pm

Larry, been fishing and the last thing I need is a kissing frog. Been golfing also. Few years back golfed 36 days straight. Got serious and wanted to break par before winter set in at the local 9 hole golf course. Took 36 days. No mulligans either. Bought my clubs at a rummage sale for $75. Driver was the weak link and I have since replaced it. Most drivers have a sweet spot my old one did not seem to. What does Tru-line mean? Did you ever breed Shearbrook Shoshone back to his daughters?
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Guest
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:17 am

Rolling Eyes I think I smell a ringer.
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Danny Miller



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:07 am

Will wrote:
Larry, been fishing and the last thing I need is a kissing frog. Been golfing also. Few years back golfed 36 days straight. Got serious and wanted to break par before winter set in at the local 9 hole golf course. Took 36 days. No mulligans either. Bought my clubs at a rummage sale for $75. Driver was the weak link and I have since replaced it. Most drivers have a sweet spot my old one did not seem to. What does Tru-line mean? Did you ever breed Shearbrook Shoshone back to his daughters?

I have to admit I do more reading than posting, mainly because I respect the many years of experience these cattlemen have under
their belt, and I am always open to learning from others even at my age and with a mature "Program" at home.
But when you start talking golf.....Another story. I have played since I was eleven years old, was down to a four handicap twenty-five
years ago, had three sons that were outstanding golfers, one received a scholarship and played collage golf.
For a beginner to break par in 36 days is quite a feat.....Either your local course was unbelievably easy or it was more like a putt-putt course.
Also, responding to Mr. Larry Leonhardt's post with the question "What does Tru-line mean?" would be like asking Jack Nicklaus what is a
major championship? A good start would be to read the "Reflections from LL" thread on here.

DM
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:48 am

Victor, I had been golfing for years before the 36 days needed to break par. Good round before was bogey. When I broke par it was just lucky. Just happen to finally put 9 good holes together. Golf is a very demanding sport. Liked to watch it on TV now. I also do a lot of reading. Have not gotten through Reflections from LL so why not ask? When I have a question I ask it. Saves time.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:41 pm

"What does Tru-line mean?"
quick answer for a quick question...it means the opposite of hybrid; and would be the best method to create a consistent hybrid product...and would be the greatest hope to make a hybrid more consistent and predictable as a, dare I say the word, parent Rolling Eyes

MK, in the vicinity of incurring even the wrath of even LL by proclaiming a first cross as a potential parent Smile
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:30 pm

Thanks. The opposite of hybrid! Really! Well that is why I did not know what it meant. Shocked Did you use the tru-line method to make your Sim-Angus or Char Angus bulls? I do not.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:58 pm

Will wrote:
Thanks. The opposite of hybrid! Really! Well that is why I did not know what it meant. Shocked Did you use the tru-line method to make your Sim-Angus or Char Angus bulls? I do not.

no, because Tru-line is at the moment just a concept...so my bulls, like yours, were just crossbreds...oh wait; you`ve not had your sale yet, so let`s call yours hybrid composites Smile
and trying to be a further pain, can you put up the pedigrees...I don`t know one simmy from another by name, but I`ll sure like to see their pedigrees so if I can tell if they are good bulls Smile
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:33 am

Oh its just a concept. Now I get it. You can call your bulls what ever you want but I call mine hybrids. You really made Sim-Angus bulls without knowing one Simmy from another by name? Another questin did Larry ever linebreed Shearbrooke Shoshone back to his daughters? Any idea?
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:55 pm

It is truly amazing to me that when cattle people talk they talk in circles.
A plant breeder always uses true parent lines that are tried and tested before they send them for a grower to use and still some fail.
Most bull {seedstock} producers randomly mate cattle and expect the commercial cowman to buy their product to test.
I would rather buy time tested linebred product and use it at my will to make the end product that I have set as my goal. This seems like a better system for success.
Don't worry there will still be some falures .
Bob H from the land of conservetives
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MVCatt



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:29 pm

Bob H wrote:
It is truly amazing to me that when cattle people talk they talk in circles.
A plant breeder always uses true parent lines that are tried and tested before they send them for a grower to use and still some fail.
Most bull {seedstock} producers randomly mate cattle and expect the commercial cowman to buy their product to test.
I would rather buy time tested linebred product and use it at my will to make the end product that I have set as my goal. This seems like a better system for success.
Don't worry there will still be some falures .
Bob H from the land of conservetives

Glad you're back Bob!
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:16 pm

Bob H wrote:
It is truly amazing to me that when cattle people talk they talk in circles.
A plant breeder always uses true parent lines that are tried and tested before they send them for a grower to use and still some fail.
Most bull {seedstock} producers randomly mate cattle and expect the commercial cowman to buy their product to test.
I would rather buy time tested linebred product and use it at my will to make the end product that I have set as my goal. This seems like a better system for success.
Don't worry there will still be some falures .
Bob H from the land of conservetives
yes plant breeders use true parent lines Bob; but the parent line selling to the producer to plant for production has often been crossed...I`m on Will`s side here; but only if we can get our stories to coincide; no luck so far Smile
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Will



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:26 pm

This is our 28th bull sale so we have been doing it for quite a while. Had a long time customer sell his calves three or four weeks ago. Buys bulls from us and another Sim-Angus hybrid breeder. They run around 800 cows and sold around 425 steers. Group of heavy steers was 160 head. They were blacks and reds. Next group was only black and had 99 head next group had 80 and they were red . Next group I think was 57 and they were black and they had another group of around 30 head that were red. Topped the market and the same buyer that bought them for at least 5 years got most of them again. I would guess at least half the calves were F3's. Consistent you bet!
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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:40 am

Will wrote:
Victor, I had been golfing for years before the 36 days needed to break par. Good round before was bogey. When I broke par it was just lucky. Just happen to finally put 9 good holes together. Golf is a very demanding sport. Liked to watch it on TV now. I also do a lot of reading. Have not gotten through Reflections from LL so why not ask? When I have a question I ask it. Saves time.

Will, I get your desire for an immediate understanding of Tru Line, I felt the same impatience initially. Though, after reading and thinking and mulling and stewing on just the basic concepts for over a year now, from what I have read on this site, I feel I am starting to get a grasp. Conceptually it is simple, but for me it was not easy. The challenge was that it is a complete 360 in terms of the way I thought about and approached breeding my cattle since the early 80's. It is a different way of thinking. You are obviously a committed cattleman and as such when you take the time to read and think about the True Line principles I expect you will then start to appreciate the differences that don't allow a single sentence, immediate, off the cuff flippant answer. There is a wide range of thinking in cattle breeder circles. Renewable is one good example of a concept I never really gave much consideration to from the stand point of how to, other than just wishing for the right mating. Everyone would like to be able to renew their good results consistently. But few can churn out the same type of functional predictable results on a relatively consistent basis. You may protest and say you do and yet you say "I sure wish we had some semen on some of our past herdbulls now that we are positive that they had more to offer than just carcass and growth". For years I have wanted to replicate my good results also. To be able to renew those results is a part of what True Line addresses. How does one stack the deck in favor of replicating the functional individual or individuals. The recipe. Humans typically get bored of a really good dish and eventually they want some variety, until the day comes they can't have the good lod dish any more, then it is imagined as even better then it actually was. Asssuming your wish was sincere, spending some time reading will likely prove interesting for you.

DB


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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:46 am

LL, that tar baby is mighty sticky! Smile
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:20 am

Dylan Biggs wrote:
Will wrote:
Victor, I had been golfing for years before the 36 days needed to break par. Good round before was bogey. When I broke par it was just lucky. Just happen to finally put 9 good holes together. Golf is a very demanding sport. Liked to watch it on TV now. I also do a lot of reading. Have not gotten through Reflections from LL so why not ask? When I have a question I ask it. Saves time.

Will, I get your desire for an immediate understanding of Tru Line, I felt the same impatience initially. Though, after reading and thinking and mulling and stewing on just the basic concepts for over a year now, from what I have read on this site, I feel I am starting to get a grasp. Conceptually it is simple, but for me it was not easy. The challenge was that it is a complete 360 in terms of the way I thought about and approached breeding my cattle since the early 80's. It is a different way of thinking. You are obviously a committed cattleman and as such when you take the time to read and think about the True Line principles I expect you will then start to appreciate the differences that don't allow a single sentence, immediate, off the cuff flippant answer. There is a wide range of thinking in cattle breeder circles. Renewable is one good example of a concept I never really gave much consideration to from the stand point of how to, other than just wishing for the right mating. Everyone would like to be able to renew their good results consistently. But few can churn out the same type of functional predictable results on a relatively consistent basis. You may protest and say you do and yet you say "I sure wish we had some semen on some of our past herdbulls now that we are positive that they had more to offer than just carcass and growth". For years I have wanted to replicate my good results also. To be able to renew those results is a part of what True Line addresses. How does one stack the deck in favor of replicating the functional individual or individuals. The recipe. Humans typically get bored of a really good dish and eventually they want some variety, until the day comes they can't have the good lod dish any more, then it is imagined as even better then it actually was. Asssuming your wish was sincere, spending some time reading will likely prove interesting for you.

DB



“A truly good book teaches me better than to read it. I must soon lay it down, and commence living on its hint. What I began by reading, I must finish by acting.”
― Henry David Thoreau
Dylan,
I think you are moving to the "finishing school" Smile
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Dylan Biggs



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PostSubject: Re: Reflections from LL ©   Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:55 am


“If the day and the night are such that you greet them with joy, and life emits a fragrance like flowers and sweet-scented herbs, is more elastic, more starry, more immortal- that is your success. All nature is your congratulation, and you have cause momentarily to bless yourself.

If things were as easy as they are simple....... the rats nest of the human mind.



DB...beginning.
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