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Bob H



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PostSubject: What would happen.   Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:31 pm

What would happen if you crossed two breeds that are alike and started to line breed them. How many generations would you have to have to get any predictablity?
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: What would happen.   Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:36 pm

Over the course of many years, devoting many resources to the project, King Ranch, under the leadership of Robert Kleberg Jr. and Dick Kleberg, were able to develop the Santa Gertrudis breed.

This breed is recognized worldwide as being able to function productively in hot, humid and unfavorable environments. In order to accomplish this goal, King Ranch breeding experts selectively crossed Indian Brahman cattle with British Shorthorns to develop an animal which is recognized as being 5/8ths shorthorn and 3/8ths Brahman. In 1920, many years of experimentation culminated with the birth of Monkey, a deep red bull calf. Monkey became the foundation sire for not just a superior line of cattle, but for an entirely new breed. In 1940, the Santa Gertrudis breed was recognized by the U.S. Department of Agriculture as the first beef breed developed in the United States; it was also the first breed developed anywhere in the world in more than a century.

Monkey was born in 1920, a son of Vinotero, one of the bulls who was purchased in 1918. This bull became the foundation sire for the breed. With the birth of Monkey and a decision to line-breed came a very uniform and very hearty breed of beef cattle. These cattle are red in colour, display a blend of Bos indicus and Bos taurus attributes and may be polled or horned. In addition to being a hardy breed, other characteristics include good milking ability, good for beef production, excellent mothering ability, ease of calving, high heat tolerance and parasite resistance, and an ability to turn off (sell or use for food) a steer at just about any age. The steers also show good weights for their age as well as good weight gains whether on pasture or in a feedlot.

In 1950 the Santa Gertrudis Breeders International Association was formed at Kingsville, Texas.

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EddieM



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PostSubject: Re: What would happen.   Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:52 pm

If they are better, why are there so few of them?
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larkota



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PostSubject: Re: What would happen.   Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:06 pm

EddieM wrote:
If they are better, why are there so few of them?

didnt say better, just one of many places that got me to thinking linebreeding.
went there in 04. very impressive place. got to see peppy san badger who died at 31 years old in 05.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: What would happen.   Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:34 pm

Thats an interesting question Bob. I don't know the answer but want to throw in some evidence from my own breed which was formed in just such a manner. I'd always read the history and believed when they stated "they fixed a type" after so many years blah, blah but when I started reading here of how much longer the Line1 Herefords were going and still had large variation it was making me doubt if we actually had a "breed" at all.
They started forming the Luing breed in 1947 and by '54 or so they were starting to fix or select their type (keeping first only 30%, then later 40% of the heifer calves).
Now I've got a couple of scans of old photos here which probably won't come out clear enough to determine much.

157 fattening steers on grass.

72 sides of beef.
These pictures were taken around 1971 for promotional purposes and were probably only 6th generation or so in from the original foundation crosses. They show remarkable uniformity of type - the grazing cattle especially although you likely can't tell from the scan. There were also photos of bulls, cows and heifers around the same time all showing the same remarkable similarity of type. So how did they achieve what looks like a well matched F1 type fixed phenotype, 6 generations in? I have no clue but would sure be interested in hearing opinions as it would help me understand what we have got. One thing I know for sure - you couldn't find the same similarity of type in any herd of modern day Luing in the homeland. To an extent they have gone the way of the Angus - every type under the sun wrapped in the title of a "breed"
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df



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PostSubject: Re: What would happen.   Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:22 am

Bob H wrote:
What would happen if you crossed two breeds that are alike and started to line breed them. How many generations would you have to have to get any predictablity?

MARC states the composites have no more variation in economically relavant traits when compared to the purebreds. ?????

Did you have two breeds in mind?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: What would happen.   Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:55 am

df wrote:
Bob H wrote:
What would happen if you crossed two breeds that are alike and started to line breed them. How many generations would you have to have to get any predictablity?

MARC states the composites have no more variation in economically relavant traits when compared to the purebreds. ?????

Did you have two breeds in mind?

correction...MARC states the composites have no more variation in economically relavant traits when compared to the registered breeds
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: What would happen.   Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:34 am

Grassfarmer Did not most of the original stock descend from several bulls and the founders of the herd apply selection for their desired traits? How much upgrading in the breed has occurred or someone slipping in new genetics on the sly? As the number of breeders increases the selection for different types and traits increase.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: What would happen.   Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:52 am

http://jas.fass.org/content/73/7/1920.full.pdf

Sorry, I misquoted. The quote should be composites had no more variation than the contributing purebred.

I searched for the "comprared to registered breeds" but did not find it.
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: What would happen.   Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:37 am

df wrote:
http://jas.fass.org/content/73/7/1920.full.pdf

Sorry, I misquoted. The quote should be composites had no more variation than the contributing purebred.

I searched for the "comprared to registered breeds" but did not find it.
it was MARC, not you df, that misquoted Smile
Bob, what would be the point of developing a new breed from "like" breeds?
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: What would happen.   Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:22 am

Pat what you said about their selection was correct - I'm still surprised how they appeared to reduce the apparent variation so quickly. There must be quite a bit of variation between Highlanders and Shorthorns - almost a different species in fact. How much effect would a very prepotent sire in the founding generation have? enough to stabilize a type and reduce variation almost straight away if the correct offspring were retained? These guys certainly knew what they were doing with cattle, outstanding stockmen from a practical, not show ring, viewpoint.
Yes, there was upgrading in the early days to expand numbers, mostly using similar shorthorn x highland cattle. I believe more recently that other stuff was introduced on the sly.

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df



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PostSubject: Re: What would happen.   Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:37 am

Bob H wrote:
What would happen if you crossed two breeds that are alike and started to line breed them. How many generations would you have to have to get any predictablity?

How inbred do they need to be to be predictable? How would you define predictable?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: What would happen.   Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:41 am

[quote="df"]
Bob H wrote:
What would happen if you crossed two breeds that are alike and started to line breed them. How many generations would you have to have to get any predictablity?

How inbred do they need to be to be predictable? How would you define predictable?[/quote]

is this a clinton is question?

I`ll accept this meaning...Behaving or occurring in a way that is expected

So df, what is a breed, and is there any need according to MARC? According to you df? according to AAA, and why?

one other question from a quickie photograph yesterday...did the Simmy`s combine with Angus to get black color or with Woolly Mammoths ?





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df



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PostSubject: Re: What would happen.   Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:59 am

MKeeney wrote:

I`ll accept this meaning...Behaving or occurring in a way that is expected


A bit vague for me; both of us might think composites do exactly as each of us expect yet our expectations/perceptions might be completely different.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: What would happen.   Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:11 pm

[quote="MKeeney"]
df wrote:
Bob H wrote:
What would happen if you crossed two breeds that are alike and started to line breed them. How many generations would you have to have to get any predictablity?

How inbred do they need to be to be predictable? How would you define predictable?[/quote]

is this a clinton is question?

I`ll accept this meaning...Behaving or occurring in a way that is expected

So df, what is a breed, and is there any need according to MARC? According to you df? according to AAA, and why?

one other question from a quickie photograph yesterday...did the Simmy`s combine with Angus to get black color or with Woolly Mammoths ?






Or maybe the simmys just brought out some Galloway features long hidden in the Angus breed? Galloways and Angus were all in the one herd book way back I believe. Smile
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: What would happen.   Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:32 pm

Grassfarmer wrote:
Pat what you said about their selection was correct - I'm still surprised how they appeared to reduce the apparent variation so quickly. There must be quite a bit of variation between Highlanders and Shorthorns - almost a different species in fact. How much effect would a very prepotent sire in the founding generation have? enough to stabilize a type and reduce variation almost straight away if the correct offspring were retained? These guys certainly knew what they were doing with cattle, outstanding stockmen from a practical, not show ring, viewpoint.
Yes, there was upgrading in the early days to expand numbers, mostly using similar shorthorn x highland cattle. I believe more recently that other stuff was introduced on the sly.


The founders linebred shorthorn bull(s) to a group of highland cows and kept only animals that represented their ideal type. Heifers were kept and bred back to shorthorn bull(s) most likely father in founding stock and only animals meeting certian type were kept. How many generations was this done before new shorthorn bull(s) was introduced back on linebred females. The herd was then closed and homegrown bulls bred females and only animals meeting certian type were kept. Please correct me if I am wrong on my understanding of the founding history. The herd descends from 2 primary bulls will major selection for desire traits and looks. With all the linebreding/inbreeding and selection for traits the the desire consistency should have been reached early. If DNA was available on the founding bulls and their offspring I bet you would find the bulls past on more than their 50% share of dna. The consistency of Luing may have drop as snowlander and upgraded animals introduced new genetic variation then the founding herd had.
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MVCatt



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PostSubject: Re: What would happen.   Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:48 pm

df wrote:

How inbred do they need to be to be predictable? How would you define predictable?

Forget crossing for a minute, wouldn't you first ask this question about the breeds you intend to cross. Careful though....that's starting to sound like TruLine.
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Grassfarmer



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PostSubject: Re: What would happen.   Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:58 pm

patb wrote:

The founders linebred shorthorn bull(s) to a group of highland cows and kept only animals that represented their ideal type. Heifers were kept and bred back to shorthorn bull(s) most likely father in founding stock and only animals meeting certian type were kept. How many generations was this done before new shorthorn bull(s) was introduced back on linebred females. The herd was then closed and homegrown bulls bred females and only animals meeting certian type were kept. Please correct me if I am wrong on my understanding of the founding history. The herd descends from 2 primary bulls will major selection for desire traits and looks. With all the linebreding/inbreeding and selection for traits the the desire consistency should have been reached early. If DNA was available on the founding bulls and their offspring I bet you would find the bulls past on more than their 50% share of dna. The consistency of Luing may have drop as snowlander and upgraded animals introduced new genetic variation then the founding herd had.

Quite a few misunderstandings in there Pat, but you probably gave it as good a go as most modern Luing breeders could as it seems none take the time to study.
The Cadzows never owned a highland cow. As far as I can tell they started with F1 Shorthorn/Highland crosses from breeders they had bought from for years - they knew these commercial cattle and their attributes. There was in theory only ever one Shorthorn bull - Cruggleton Alister who was used on these F1s. From that mating two bulls were eventually kept and these in turn were mated to their half sisters (also 3/4 Shorthorns), they were also mated to some more F1s and from the combination of these matings the "foundation stock" or first generation of what they considered the new Luing breed were selected. They actually did use other Shorthorns later to start a new line in one cow family that were kept at 3/4 Shorthorn for the first few generations before getting bred to regular Luing bulls. The more general breed is considered to have a 5/8SH, 3/8H foundation as explained earlier.
There was never any inbreeding and indeed the line breeding was very mild - never closer than 1/2 brother/1/2 sister matings and only practising those for the first 2 or 3 generations as far as I can tell. The Cadzows referred to this as "inbreeding". The Cruggleton bull was likely line bred, came from what had been the biggest and most successful herd in the country at one time. They had several hundred cows in the early 1900s which is huge for the UK and his stock was exported all over the world. The owner was an old man by this time and had stuck to the "old type" of Shorthorn while the breed in general had started to go down the "tiny" route. The Cadzows gave great credit to this Shorthorn bull for the success achieved in establishing the new breed.

That much I know but I still don't know how it appeared to work so well - I don't think it could be as easy as you imply although that's what I was hoping to do when I first became interested in line breeding. After reading the experiences Larry has detailed and from other contributors here the complexity of cattle genetics doesn't make this type of almost instant success likely or even possible. How could you possibly reduce the variation in a cattle population with genetics so diverse so quickly? Certainly once the breed ceased to be in the hands of one family, one herd, one environment it was likely to change and become more diverse and bringing in "upgrading" stock would likely hasten that.

Mike please feel free to move this Luing segment into the Luing question thread if it's taking the discussion away from Bobs original question here.
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PatB



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PostSubject: Re: What would happen.   Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:17 pm

I should have went back and reread the history of the Luing cattle Embarassed Embarassed . The Cadzows may of had far more knowledge of the herds they bought cattle from then modern bull buyers. They may have selected there foundation stock with care knowing which farms cattle had the traits they wanted and which bulls offspring preformed as they wished. How much pressure was applied on selection for desired traits? Were the foundation stock that consistent or had the appearance of being consistent with careful selection and presentation?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: What would happen.   Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:45 pm

carry on gentlemen; sometimes we travel up the back country tributaries before settling back into the free flowing river Smile
I have a tributary in mind myself; in due time...thx Bob H for a topic drawing us away from the tedium of the unholy wars Smile
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df



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PostSubject: Re: What would happen.   Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:47 pm

Bob H wrote:
What would happen if you crossed two breeds that are alike and started to line breed them. How many generations would you have to have to get any predictablity?

How many generations did it take for LL? surely the cross of two breeds is similar to the within breed variation.
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Lucky_P



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PostSubject: Re: What would happen.   Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:27 pm

Mike,
Except for the ears and tailhead, that looks like the Sydgen Mandate-sired calves here this fall. Hairiest buggers I've ever had on the place (and no 'grow', despite whopping WW epds). Won't do that again.

None of my Simmental-influenced calves look like that - wish some had MORE hair than they do - for winter insulation, not for show ring sculpting.

LLP
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Bob H



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PostSubject: Re: What would happen.   Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:13 am

Sorry for writing a topic and not staying engaged but have been real busy. The thought that started this topic was to take our truline heifers and cross them with Akaushi to make a line of cows that have ranch stay ability and greater marbling ability. I am sure that mainstream Angus are going to do this.

One of the things that I needed to get done is go to Cowley and get my annual inhalation of smoke to clear my mind and move on. After a small amount of time the master explained to me that the f1 cross was what the meat packer wanted.

After visiting I came to the conclusion that he was exactly right. I had been living in la la land where everything is rosy all the time, but in reality I do not have the time or the need to do this. What we already have for factories (Black cows) are more than good enough to stay sustainable for my life time. With that said the trueline benefits actually come from the f1 crosses to sell as a terminal product. This is the only way in my life that we have gotten more from less.

As far as reading the response's to this post it is fascinating and really appreciate every ones response keep on going lets brain storm and move forward in a positive manner.
From Bob H
Very Happy
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mikejd4020



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PostSubject: hairball   Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:58 pm

Does the buffalo loolking hairball have a mother??
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: What would happen.   Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:24 am

mikejd4020 wrote:
Does the buffalo loolking hairball have a mother??
she does Mike; a simmy mother...you need them to have some hair up on the border, don`t ya? Smile
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