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 no Leland, he`s just a bull

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PostSubject: Re: no Leland, he`s just a bull   Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:56 am

EddieM wrote:
Quote :
If prices are high for a large number of sons of a specific sire, are commercial cattlemen wrong in which phenotype works for them?

df, why do you think every AI catalog is loaded with bulls that correct feet and legs, moderates size, ...?

And why are the bulls at most sales over fattened and clipped?
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df



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PostSubject: Re: no Leland, he`s just a bull   Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:04 am

Jack McNamee wrote:
EddieM wrote:
Quote :
If prices are high for a large number of sons of a specific sire, are commercial cattlemen wrong in which phenotype works for them?

df, why do you think every AI catalog is loaded with bulls that correct feet and legs, moderates size, ...?

And why are the bulls at most sales over fattened and clipped?

Because nobody has identified the perfect bull?

Partially a leftover from the days when phenotype (and winning shows) was the only measure of a bulls worth?
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PostSubject: Re: no Leland, he`s just a bull   Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:25 am

df wrote:
Jack McNamee wrote:
EddieM wrote:
Quote :
If prices are high for a large number of sons of a specific sire, are commercial cattlemen wrong in which phenotype works for them?

df, why do you think every AI catalog is loaded with bulls that correct feet and legs, moderates size, ...?

And why are the bulls at most sales over fattened and clipped?

Because nobody has identified the perfect bull?

Sure they have. You have, just watch the sales and the high sellling sire group must be the perfect ones.
Partially a leftover from the days when phenotype (and winning shows) was the only measure of a bulls worth?
Bullshit! It's to hide flaws in the phenotype.

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df



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PostSubject: Re: no Leland, he`s just a bull   Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:23 pm

Jack McNamee wrote:
df wrote:
Jack McNamee wrote:
EddieM wrote:
Quote :
If prices are high for a large number of sons of a specific sire, are commercial cattlemen wrong in which phenotype works for them?

df, why do you think every AI catalog is loaded with bulls that correct feet and legs, moderates size, ...?

And why are the bulls at most sales over fattened and clipped?

Because nobody has identified the perfect bull?

Sure they have. You have, just watch the sales and the high sellling sire group must be the perfect ones.
Partially a leftover from the days when phenotype (and winning shows) was the only measure of a bulls worth?
Bullshit! It's to hide flaws in the phenotype.


What flaws do these bulls have that need to be covered?
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PostSubject: Re: no Leland, he`s just a bull   Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:19 pm

df wrote:
Jack McNamee wrote:
df wrote:
Jack McNamee wrote:
EddieM wrote:
Quote :
If prices are high for a large number of sons of a specific sire, are commercial cattlemen wrong in which phenotype works for them?

df, why do you think every AI catalog is loaded with bulls that correct feet and legs, moderates size, ...?

And why are the bulls at most sales over fattened and clipped?

Because nobody has identified the perfect bull?

Sure they have. You have, just watch the sales and the high sellling sire group must be the perfect ones.
Partially a leftover from the days when phenotype (and winning shows) was the only measure of a bulls worth?
Bullshit! It's to hide flaws in the phenotype.


What flaws do these bulls have that need to be covered?

What flaws do you think they would be able to cover up with 200 pounds of fat and a fine clip job?
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df



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PostSubject: Re: no Leland, he`s just a bull   Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:00 am

Jack McNamee wrote:
df wrote:
Jack McNamee wrote:
df wrote:
Jack McNamee wrote:
EddieM wrote:
Quote :
If prices are high for a large number of sons of a specific sire, are commercial cattlemen wrong in which phenotype works for them?

df, why do you think every AI catalog is loaded with bulls that correct feet and legs, moderates size, ...?

And why are the bulls at most sales over fattened and clipped?

Because nobody has identified the perfect bull?

Sure they have. You have, just watch the sales and the high sellling sire group must be the perfect ones.
Partially a leftover from the days when phenotype (and winning shows) was the only measure of a bulls worth?
Bullshit! It's to hide flaws in the phenotype.


What flaws do these bulls have that need to be covered?

What flaws do you think they would be able to cover up with 200 pounds of fat and a fine clip job?

Well, I suppose you could cover up the lack of terminal traits like growth and muscle. Fat bulls might be less athletic but appear thicker. They would be heavier so would appear to have more growth compared to a bull that was not fed as heavy. Plus the bulls would be prettier (in the eyes of the beholder). Would you agree?
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PostSubject: Re: no Leland, he`s just a bull   Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:37 am

It also takes away the buyers ability to differentiate based on phenotype, ie. they all look the same? Then the buyers are forced to buy off data and pedigree? The high end buyers (usually other seedstock producers) buy what they consider the best pedigrees (what ever is hot and what ever will best address problems leftover from their last purchases) along with the best data (best performance, scan, etc.) and it trickles down from there? Smaller seedstock producers and ranches that are willing to spend more money buy the next tier bulls based on data, pedigree, and name, and it goes on down to the buyer who buys the low end bulls based on sellers name and the fact that all the fat, clipped bulls look alike to him? Over the years I have been everyone of these buyers? The real sale job is that the buyers of the low end bulls have been convinced that the worst of the bulls at a sale like this are better than the best bulls at a smaller breeders sale and often they are the same pedigrees because the smaller breeders what to be big shot breeders selling fat bulls for big money too? How different those bulls would look if they all were penned and evaluated on phenotype like they are sale day, the day they come out of the breeding pastures?

Jack... oh never mind?
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df



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PostSubject: Re: no Leland, he`s just a bull   Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:24 am

Jack McNamee wrote:
It also takes away the buyers ability to differentiate based on phenotype, ie. they all look the same? Then the buyers are forced to buy off data and pedigree? The high end buyers (usually other seedstock producers) buy what they consider the best pedigrees (what ever is hot and what ever will best address problems leftover from their last purchases) along with the best data (best performance, scan, etc.) and it trickles down from there? Smaller seedstock producers and ranches that are willing to spend more money buy the next tier bulls based on data, pedigree, and name, and it goes on down to the buyer who buys the low end bulls based on sellers name and the fact that all the fat, clipped bulls look alike to him? Over the years I have been everyone of these buyers? The real sale job is that the buyers of the low end bulls have been convinced that the worst of the bulls at a sale like this are better than the best bulls at a smaller breeders sale and often they are the same pedigrees because the smaller breeders what to be big shot breeders selling fat bulls for big money too? How different those bulls would look if they all were penned and evaluated on phenotype like they are sale day, the day they come out of the breeding pastures?

Jack... oh never mind?

Are the bulls so fat that there are no noticable differences?

Isn't it the job of the marketing dept to convince people to buy from their company?
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PostSubject: Re: no Leland, he`s just a bull   Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:19 am

Jack McNamee wrote:
It also takes away the buyers ability to differentiate based on phenotype, ie. they all look the same? Then the buyers are forced to buy off data and pedigree? The high end buyers (usually other seedstock producers) buy what they consider the best pedigrees (what ever is hot and what ever will best address problems leftover from their last purchases) along with the best data (best performance, scan, etc.) and it trickles down from there? Smaller seedstock producers and ranches that are willing to spend more money buy the next tier bulls based on data, pedigree, and name, and it goes on down to the buyer who buys the low end bulls based on sellers name and the fact that all the fat, clipped bulls look alike to him? Over the years I have been everyone of these buyers? The real sale job is that the buyers of the low end bulls have been convinced that the worst of the bulls at a sale like this are better than the best bulls at a smaller breeders sale and often they are the same pedigrees because the smaller breeders what to be big shot breeders selling fat bulls for big money too? How different those bulls would look if they all were penned and evaluated on phenotype like they are sale day, the day they come out of the breeding pastures?

Jack... oh never mind?

Good stuff. Jack that is about the best analogy of bull buying i have read...
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robert



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PostSubject: Re: no Leland, he`s just a bull   Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:01 pm

Jack McNamee wrote:
The real sale job is that the buyers of the low end bulls have been convinced that the worst of the bulls at a sale like this are better than the best bulls at a smaller breeders sale and often they are the same pedigrees because the smaller breeders what to be big shot breeders selling fat bulls for big money too?
Jack... oh never mind?

ain't that the truth! Small breeders are a hinderance to 'real progress', either join the latest greatest bandwagon or be condemned to obscurity. Too many bulls are not even good, let alone great.
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df



Posts : 613
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PostSubject: Re: no Leland, he`s just a bull   Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:13 pm

robert wrote:
Jack McNamee wrote:
The real sale job is that the buyers of the low end bulls have been convinced that the worst of the bulls at a sale like this are better than the best bulls at a smaller breeders sale and often they are the same pedigrees because the smaller breeders what to be big shot breeders selling fat bulls for big money too?
Jack... oh never mind?

ain't that the truth! Small breeders are a hinderance to 'real progress', either join the latest greatest bandwagon or be condemned to obscurity. Too many bulls are not even good, let alone great.

What is "good"?
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PostSubject: Re: no Leland, he`s just a bull   Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:11 pm

df wrote:
robert wrote:
Jack McNamee wrote:
The real sale job is that the buyers of the low end bulls have been convinced that the worst of the bulls at a sale like this are better than the best bulls at a smaller breeders sale and often they are the same pedigrees because the smaller breeders what to be big shot breeders selling fat bulls for big money too?
Jack... oh never mind?

ain't that the truth! Small breeders are a hinderance to 'real progress', either join the latest greatest bandwagon or be condemned to obscurity. Too many bulls are not even good, let alone great.

What is "good"?

The soul, the _____, the _____, the small of a womens back, the hangin curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, the sweet spot, soft core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning, and long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days.

Merry Christmas DF
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df



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PostSubject: Re: no Leland, he`s just a bull   Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:00 pm

Finally we are getting somewhere. "Good" is defined!
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Tom D
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PostSubject: Re: no Leland, he`s just a bull   Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:10 pm

You get three ants together, they can't do dick. You get 300 million of them, they can build a cathedral.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: no Leland, he`s just a bull   Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:12 am

Lack of data causes consolidation of the beef industry?
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PostSubject: Re: no Leland, he`s just a bull   Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:07 pm

Tom D wrote:
You get three ants together, they can't do dick. You get 300 million of them, they can build a cathedral.

Name one built by ants? Just one. Go ahead.
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Mark Day



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PostSubject: Re: no Leland, he`s just a bull   Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:05 pm

Quote :
Lack of data causes consolidation of the beef industry

Is it or is it the belief that you can make a breed do it all?
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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: no Leland, he`s just a bull   Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:21 am

Mark Day wrote:
Quote :
Lack of data causes consolidation of the beef industry

Is it or is it the belief that you can make a breed do it all?
it`s academia`s job to tell those who do, what they did wrong, after the fact...and after the doers, already know what they did wrong...watch academia breed cattle with taxpayer money; they copy the current fads...a close study of ants show that some don`t create anything; they just run in circles appearing to work, freeloading on the builders...
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df



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PostSubject: Re: no Leland, he`s just a bull   Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:46 am

Mark Day wrote:
Quote :
Lack of data causes consolidation of the beef industry

Is it or is it the belief that you can make a breed do it all?

If a commercial producer was faced with buying bulls from seedstock producers who supplied no data to make his decision (except price), would consolidation in the industry increase or decrease?

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MKeeney
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PostSubject: Re: no Leland, he`s just a bull   Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:01 am

df wrote:
Mark Day wrote:
Quote :
Lack of data causes consolidation of the beef industry

Is it or is it the belief that you can make a breed do it all?

If a commercial producer was faced with buying bulls from seedstock producers who supplied no data to make his decision (except price), would consolidation in the industry increase or decrease?

i have no clue...my gut feeling is that it would not be a signficant factor either way...furthermore, there won`t be any seedstock producers NOT providing data...
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df



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PostSubject: Re: no Leland, he`s just a bull   Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:15 am

MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
Mark Day wrote:
Quote :
Lack of data causes consolidation of the beef industry

Is it or is it the belief that you can make a breed do it all?

If a commercial producer was faced with buying bulls from seedstock producers who supplied no data to make his decision (except price), would consolidation in the industry increase or decrease?

i have no clue...my gut feeling is that it would not be a signficant factor either way...furthermore, there won`t be any seedstock producers NOT providing data...

Shocked


Last edited by df on Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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Kent Powell



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PostSubject: Re: no Leland, he`s just a bull   Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:23 am



"This testing program is a breeding tool for our use so that we may serve you better--not a sales tool"

July 1967 AJ Ankony
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PostSubject: Re: no Leland, he`s just a bull   Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:58 am

df wrote:
MKeeney wrote:
df wrote:
Mark Day wrote:
Quote :
Lack of data causes consolidation of the beef industry

Is it or is it the belief that you can make a breed do it all?

If a commercial producer was faced with buying bulls from seedstock producers who supplied no data to make his decision (except price), would consolidation in the industry increase or decrease?

i have no clue...my gut feeling is that it would not be a signficant factor either way...furthermore, there won`t be any seedstock producers NOT providing data...

Holy Crap! df's ass finally got raw enough from riding the fence he got off and made a stand. Statements instead of questions answered with other questions.
Your guessing BW? and providing actual and/or adjusted wts (the least sophisticated method of comparison). Clearly, the commercial producer is dependent on the seedstock producer to tell him which bull will work for him. soon even the pedigree will be unknown to the commercial producer. You have clearly stated you will tell him which bull would work for him. What is available to him to compare to another herd? Nothing. Ratios? Get real, they are a joke to real comparison. What do you suggest, epds? Epds are just the results of ratios on a population wide basis. They damn sure are df. All that data is sent in and epds are set off of how sire groups compare in herd against other sire groups in that same herd. Ratios Real comparison? If he is supposed to reduce variation, I suspect you intend for him to return to the same source for bulls year after year. Isn't this the definition of consolidation? No because he has the option at any time to go down the road and buy bulls from anyone he or she whats to.The commercial producer must return to the same source, his focused production becomes focused marketing. Must??? Who says anyone must buy anywhere. This is a stretch even for you df. Consolidation???


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df



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PostSubject: Re: no Leland, he`s just a bull   Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:06 am

Even the swine industry and corn companies share data with their customers so the customers can make the best decision. "Our brand X outperformed brand Y in 10 trials across a variety of soil conditions and years in this area so we know brand X is better than brand Y."

Did the SALESMAN use this information for internal use only or did it just become a "sales tool"? Maybe it is just an educational tool; "I will discuss with you how the data was collected and what the results mean (to your bottom line) and YOU can make the decision if my bull is a better buy compared to the guy down the road".

I think when profit is on the line, the data is important. Indexes encourage multiple trait selection to help focus selection towards the end goal ie, consolidation. The reason, I feel, indexes are put down is some producers simply don't have any data for their cattle to excel for any given index. Yet they feel their cattle are profitable., and they probably are. But lack of data means there is no way to compare accurately to anther herd.
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df



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PostSubject: Re: no Leland, he`s just a bull   Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:11 am

EPDs are not generated using ratios.

EPDs use the pedigree relationships and heritability which ratios do not. EPDs are superior to ratios in making comparison across herds.


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